Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

With any old testament prophet, remember always that what they wrote meant something to them and to their contemporary hearers and was written into a specific point in history and so addressed things from a certain angle and with certain assumptions.

It also meant often quite specific things to the Jews of the 1st century AD - by no means all of them accepted that these things were fulfilled in Jesus. In some ways, it’s helpful to see the late 1st century as the beginning of the split between Rabbinic and Messianic Judaism, with the Messianic stream becoming what we now call Christianity.

A decent exegesis of any Old Testament text will always adequately deal with its historical and cultural background, acknowledge any textual difficulties, and consider how the text was received and used in the generations that first held it as well as by the church, both in its earliest days as well as down to today.

A temptation with any of the principal messianic texts of the OT is to treat it purely as a means of illustrating something Jesus said or did. Important as it is to do that, really getting to grips with the text requires a broader approach. Have fun!

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I am a Christian but I do not believe in the Trinity or Hell. All the prophecies proclaim there is only one God and only one true religion. That means, if our faith is correct that a lot of people are worshipping the wrong God or at the very least the wrong religion.

Also where in the bible does it say it is ok to worship idols ever? Yet some will wear a cross or sit in front of a cross or statue of Mary.

I also find it laughable when a so called Christian goes to war saying it is in God's name when Christ made it perfectly clear that was not acceptable Matt 5:44

There are a lot of things in orthadox Christianity that are not mentioned in the bible and the Catholics have more than any others

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

With respect to you as a person of faith and conviction, if you don’t acknowledge the basic belief about divine nature in the creed (God’s three-in-one-ness, usually called ‘Trinity’) then you’re not a Christian. You can’t follow Christ if you actively deny who he is.

You’re a Jehovah’s Witness, a Unitarian, a Mormon or other similar sect, but you’re not a Christian. This is a very basic, foundational credal principle that has distinguished who is, from who is not, from the very beginning. (Please feel free to argue that the Trinity was invented in the 4th century and I’ll explain how you’re wrong). ;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

your very bible disproves it

Before John the Baptist baptised Christ he had no idea who he was. The dove came down and anointed Christ with holy spirit and he then knew who he was. Then he went into the wilderness to be tested and Prayed to God ( Something Jesus did a lot, remember the garden before his arrest?)
So at this point if the Trinity is true God sent himself down and anointed himself and then went off to pray to himself.

Why did Jesus pray if he was praying to himself?? and why would he ask himself to forgive those who were taking his life?

And then if you look at Genesis 3:15 right at the point of initial sin God makes it clear that there is a 3rd party who will make it all right.

We could argue this all day but Chris who are you to judge if I am a Christian or not? it is certainly not very Christian of you to judge my faith as less than yours. Only God can do that

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

I could repost an essay on this from my 3rd year trinity module, but it wouldn’t advance the argument much. Your governing organisation (I suspect it’s the Watchtower, from the way you express yourself, but feel free to correct me) issues standard answers for all of these things and in my experience it’s difficult to get a JW to go off script and engage with the arguments without simply reverting to reciting the stock responses, as you have done here.

As for who am I to judge - well it’s very easy actually. Religions aren’t the only organisations that have a set of foundational principles members are meant to be in agreement with. Political parties and other secular campaigning organisations do. Understanding who agrees with the basic principles and who doesn’t is all part of the thing. It isn’t controversial.

If you don’t accept who Christ is, you are not a Christian. That’s just how it is. Relax, though - the Watchtower says I’m not a Christian, because I don’t take my teaching from them. I can live with that. ;)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

So can I :) hopefully forever and then I will find you and we can discuss who was right or not :)

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

It has pretty much always been the Catholic position that the Bible should not be taken literally, especially when studied by lay people. It was a central point in the protestant reformation.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

That’s a pretty broad statement, and I’m not sure it accurately reflects Roman Catholic teaching. I’m pretty sure that when the Bible reports Jesus’ teaching his disciples to “love your neighbour as yourself” the Roman Catholic Church teaches that is absolutely to be taken literally (though with due regard for what the Greek word rendered “love” actually means - agapāo is not erotic or romantic in this sense). Protestant churches certainly do.

I think perhaps you’re referring to passages dealing with the most ancient ages of the world - ante-diluvian history, and whether it actually is history or to be taken as figurative.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Do you not see the irony though? The largest most dominant Christian religion in the world is one that was formed by the very people who nailed Jesus up and then decided to become Christian because they saw the way the world was changing so thought they best get some control. Then indoctrinating some of their Pagan festivals and beliefs, Merry Saturnalia in a couple of months :) . I am sure you with your theocratic back ground know all this though

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Christianising pagan practices stands in the very best tradition of Paul. When he visited Athens he observed a pagan shrine dedicated “to an unknown god.” When he later engaged with some of the city’s Epicurean and Stoic philosophers he told them “what you are unknowingly worshipping, this I am declaring to you.” - even your organisation’s highly questionable version of the text admits that (and is what I’ve quoted here - it’s Acts 17:23, New World Translation, 2013 edition). For good measure he rams his point home by quoting Aratus, a Stoic philosopher (verse 28).

The case for a direct link between Saturnalia and Christmas is not quite as strong as some like to claim, but it makes no difference whether it is directly connected or not. Christmas is clearly closely associated with midwinter and therefore sits on top of a whole load of European pagan midwinter observances. My response to that would be: so what? God made the seasons and the moon by which we mark their passing (Psalm 104:19, my paraphrase). If other religions appropriate aspects of creation for their own purposes I see no barrier should I wish to use them turn attention back to God.

Final point, Christianity was very much a minority religion and widely persecuted at the time of Constantine’s profession of faith in Christ and the Christianising of Rome did not go smoothly during his lifetime. There is absolutely no sense in which Constantine was going with the flow; on the contrary he risked a lot by associating himself with Christians, including open revolt, and perhaps for that reason he didn’t submit to baptism until he was practically on his death bed, more than 20 years later. The continuing issuance of coinage in the empire for several years after his conversion, depicting pagan deities is powerful evidence of this - coinage ought to have been under tight control of the emperor, and the existence of pagan coins with Constantine’s head on the obverse and pagan gods on the reverse certainly doesn’t back the idea that the empire was ripe for conversion, which would have to have been the case had the world been changing in the way your organisation has told you.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Did you mean ‘theocratic" or ‘theological"?

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Depends on if he is Catholic or not hahaha

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

My point is you refuse to recognise my Christianity yet whether Catholic or Protestant are either following a religion that in all of its history have breached the teaching of the Christ and lets face it the Catholics have an incredibly brutal history (Spanish inquisition etc) or firstly developed by a King who wanted his cake and eat it (well oats anyway)

I am a Jehovah's Witness and as such preach the word of God continually in my neighbourhood something that Christ asked of his followers and told them to continue doing. After all for the end to come the word has to be preached everywhere. I do not vote I have no national allegiance but instead put my faith in the Kingdom we all pray for in the model Prayer laid out by the Christ who I according to you am not really worshipping. And at least we use one of the versions of Gods name the name your bible has likely removed 2000+ times

Have a good look at exactly what our organisation does for its brothers and sisters around the world and trust what ever organisation you are with will have its own issues and agendas

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Your organisation is just one of a plethora of Unitarian sects that were spawned in the 19th century (a great many of them in the USA, which to this day is particularly good at producing end-of-the-world cults). As one of the better organised and funded ones, the Watchtower Society happens to have outlived most of the rest. But it’s still just another 19th century millennialist sect.

I’m glad you look after your own in the Watchtower, but as Jesus said, even evil people know how to give good gifts to their own children. Looking after your own doesn’t really prove anything.

I’m really not going to get into Watchtower propaganda about church history and Bible translation - you don’t really own the research yourself because they don’t allow you to do any beyond the material they approve of, so to be honest there’s no basis for an open discussion here. Suffice it to say that I’ll never ask you to own, or defend, any Watchtower behaviour except that which you say you approve of. And I’ll never feel obliged to defend anything in church history except that which I find to be in accordance with Scripture. I suspect that gives me a rather easier task than you, because the Watchtower does still seem to think it is inerrant, whereas even the Roman Catholic Church (of which I am not a member) tries not to press that line too hard these days.

Incidentally, I’m a minister of a Baptist church. Baptists are the oldest non-conformist denomination in the UK (the conformist denominations being the official ones, namely the Church of England, which is episcopal in government, and the Church of Scotland, which is Presbyterian). Individual Baptist churches are independent of one another, though we tend to work together through national or regional associations.

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

Well at least you have faith which in these days is a rare thing and imo one of the main reasons the world is in the mess it is in. We both pray for the same kingdom the same God and a similar future so that is something

Re: Catholic Church admits Bible is BS
 

All very true and very appropriate. We can't read Messianic into every bit of every prophet, same with allegory and so forth. We must read scripture in context both historically, culturally and in keeping with other texts. Yet that doesn't mean that texts can't have a then and also a not yet reading that is applicable.


Essentially exegesis should seek to bridge the "author's idea in his context" to the "author's idea in our context". Lots of good tips in our lecture notes and some good texts that I've been reading but can't remember. One biggie is that our interpretation can't mean something that the author didn't mean in his context.