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-   -   Welsh 16 year olds get the vote (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33708438)

Sephiroth 03-12-2019 10:24
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36018968)
It’s an arbitrary line at 16 just as much as it is 18. People go on about “world wisdom” achieved by 16 and 17 year olds without any real evidence for it.

Why don’t we restrict the franchise to the well educated? Property owners? Landed gentry? They’re all obviously ridiculous ideas. However so is the notion that someone is so much wiser simply because they are older.
Don’t be silly. It’s an axiom that the older you are the greater wisdom you have gathered. From that flows the valid hypothesis that you have very much less wisdom at 16 or 18. Hence the debate about giving the vote to impressionable youth who cannot fully exercise sound political judgement.

I know what bits of the above you’ll pick out to challenge, but most people know that you are being uselessly provocative.

Shall we meet for a curry some day?

jfman 03-12-2019 11:41
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
One could equally argue that the media coverage of many issues indicates just how impressionable the entire electorate is - with minor issues inflated in the absence of evidence.

Even outwith the political sphere - the MMR vaccine is one example of the people being influenced against the evidence.

Hugh 03-12-2019 12:02
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36019039)
Don’t be silly. It’s an axiom that the older you are the greater wisdom you have gathered. From that flows the valid hypothesis that you have very much less wisdom at 16 or 18. Hence the debate about giving the vote to impressionable youth who cannot fully exercise sound political judgement.

I know what bits of the above you’ll pick out to challenge, but most people know that you are being uselessly provocative.

Shall we meet for a curry some day?
It's only an axiom if it's true, otherwise it's circular reasoning...

I know quite a few older people who seem to get less wise as they get older, who refuse to entertain new ideas or thoughts or approaches, and are quite fixed and rigid in their thinking - wisdom is experience, knowledge, and good judgement, not just having lived longer.

Sephiroth 03-12-2019 12:46
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
So, you can cho off at each end and you have the rump which matches the axiom.

Hugh 03-12-2019 16:08
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36019052)
So, you can cho off at each end and you have the rump which matches the axiom.
Again, only if you take your initial premise as true (which I don't), and then accept your secondary premise (which, again, I don't).

I believe that wisdom comes from self-insight (the ability to understand that you don't know everything), and anything you do know could be proven incorrect by different information and understandings, self-awareness of yourself in the context of the era you live in and and your family history (as we are all shaped by our experiences), understanding that priorities and values(including your own) are not absolute, and an awareness of life’s ambiguities.

tl:dr - we don't know everything, we should realise we don't know everything, we should try to always learn more, and try not to think in absolutes.

ymmv ;)

Damien 03-12-2019 18:38
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
You should be much more suspicious of someone who thinks they have everything figured out than those who openly admit ignorance. ;)

(I, of course, do know everything but that's a coincidence)

Sephiroth 03-12-2019 18:46
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36019068)
Again, only if you take your initial premise as true (which I don't), and then accept your secondary premise (which, again, I don't).

I believe that wisdom comes from self-insight (the ability to understand that you don't know everything), and anything you do know could be proven incorrect by different information and understandings, self-awareness of yourself in the context of the era you live in and and your family history (as we are all shaped by our experiences), understanding that priorities and values(including your own) are not absolute, and an awareness of life’s ambiguities.

tl:dr - we don't know everything, we should realise we don't know everything, we should try to always learn more, and try not to think in absolutes.

ymmv ;)
.... and there we have it: wisdom.

papa smurf 03-12-2019 19:19
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36019086)
You should be much more suspicious of someone who thinks they have everything figured out than those who openly admit ignorance. ;)

(I, of course, do know everything but that's a coincidence)
“Any fool can know. The point is to understand.”
― Albert Einstein ;)

Pierre 03-12-2019 22:00
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Well it wasn’t so long ago they were down ‘pit so why not?

denphone 04-12-2019 05:20
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36019136)
Well it wasn’t so long ago they were down ‘pit so why not?
At the age of 7 in some cases until later it became illegal for a boy under 12 to work down a mine.

OLD BOY 04-12-2019 10:00
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019149)
At the age of 7 in some cases until later it became illegal for a boy under 12 to work down a mine.
Just as well jfman wasn't around then as he would have been campaigning for 7-year-olds to have the vote! :D

denphone 04-12-2019 10:05
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36019170)
Just as well jfman wasn't around then as he would have been campaigning for 7-year-olds to have the vote! :D
l somehow doubt it OB.;)

papa smurf 04-12-2019 10:41
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36019149)
At the age of 7 in some cases until later it became illegal for a boy under 12 to work down a mine.
Once Arthur Scargill got involved no one was actually working down the mines;)

Gavin78 04-12-2019 22:33
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
16 year olds can be easily influenced as well

Hugh 05-12-2019 21:00
Re: Welsh 16 year olds get the vote
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 36019241)
16 year olds can be easily influenced as well
So can 65 year olds.


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