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-   -   Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33707495)

nomadking 30-03-2019 13:21
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
It's more about the behaviour of the group that is not allowed to be criticised.

Chris 30-03-2019 13:45
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35989153)
I think you're deliberately avoiding my point about incompatible cultures. The Maoris were furthest from my thinking (and I've worked there too).

Were a certain culture to confine itself to its region of origin, then there is less opportunity for the zealots of that culture to bring out the worst unrepresentative of the European culture as perpetated by that Aussie murderer.
This sounds an awful lot like victim blaming.

Sephiroth 30-03-2019 13:54
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35989157)
This sounds an awful lot like victim blaming.
How can I be doing that? I'm at a much higher level of abstraction.

Hugh 30-03-2019 15:23
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35989153)
I think you're deliberately avoiding my point about incompatible cultures. The Maoris were furthest from my thinking (and I've worked there too).

Were a certain culture to confine itself to its region of origin, then there is less opportunity for the zealots of that culture to bring out the worst unrepresentative of the European culture as perpetated by that Aussie murderer.
Wow!

"If only they had stayed where they came from, this wouldn’t have happened".. :rolleyes:

Chris 30-03-2019 15:26
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35989158)
How can I be doing that? I'm at a much higher level of abstraction.
I think you think you’re being abstract, but there’s nothing abstract about four dozen people being murdered for practicing a religion outside of its region of origin.*

“Reducing opportunity” is the same argument used to insinuate that a woman’s choice of Friday night outfit is a factor when she gets raped. You simply can’t advocate simplistic cause and effect arguments in situations where humans are involved. We are moral beings; we don’t operate from instinct, we have moral understanding of one kind or another and we make moral choices.

If a man rapes a woman, that is entirely due to his disregard for what society considers morally abhorrent; likewise if a man guns down a lot of Muslims.

* Fun fact, Christianity also originated in the Middle East, as did Judaism for that matter.

Sephiroth 30-03-2019 17:29
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Tut, Tut Hugh and Chris. The origins of Judeo-Christianity has nothing to do with this other than they did not become modern day belief systems that led to zealots being terrorists.


If certain cultures are incompatible, that should be recognised rather than dancing ound the subject with love thy neighbour platitudes.

ianch99 30-03-2019 19:11
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35989181)
Tut, Tut Hugh and Chris. The origins of Judeo-Christianity has nothing to do with this other than they did not become modern day belief systems that led to zealots being terrorists.


If certain cultures are incompatible, that should be recognised rather than dancing ound the subject with love thy neighbour platitudes.
You are being too simplistic here. Define "culture"? You are assigning the same moral code and religious dogma to all Muslims. They, as we do in the West, have a spectrum of moral & belief constructs: some facist and evil, most benign and inclusive.

The far-right trap, repeated throughout history, is one of: "look, they are not like us, it must be their fault".

Sephiroth 30-03-2019 19:33
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35989189)
You are being too simplistic here. Define "culture"? You are assigning the same moral code and religious dogma to all Muslims. They, as we do in the West, have a spectrum of moral & belief constructs: some facist and evil, most benign and inclusive.
[SEPH]: How can you say that? Where have I said that? I'm saying that the cultures are so different that one of them generates zealots who interpret their culture into terrorism. The non-zealots are obviously victims too as events have shown not only through murderous acts but by being shunned for their ethnicity.

The far-right trap, repeated throughout history, is one of: "look, they are not like us, it must be their fault". [SEPH]: If your statement is a generalisation confined to the far-right, then I agree. If you are associating me with the far-right, you'd need to apologise.

nomadking 30-03-2019 20:01
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35989172)
I think you think you’re being abstract, but there’s nothing abstract about four dozen people being murdered for practicing a religion outside of its region of origin.*

“Reducing opportunity” is the same argument used to insinuate that a woman’s choice of Friday night outfit is a factor when she gets raped. You simply can’t advocate simplistic cause and effect arguments in situations where humans are involved. We are moral beings; we don’t operate from instinct, we have moral understanding of one kind or another and we make moral choices.

If a man rapes a woman, that is entirely due to his disregard for what society considers morally abhorrent; likewise if a man guns down a lot of Muslims.

* Fun fact, Christianity also originated in the Middle East, as did Judaism for that matter.
There are MANY cases where Muslims kill other Muslims, simply for being the wrong "type" of Muslim. There are MANY other attacks on Mosques(and Churches) by ..... Muslims. And that is before you get into the attacks of various kinds on non-Muslims for being non-Muslim by ..... Muslims.

Damien 30-03-2019 20:44
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989197)
There are MANY cases where Muslims kill other Muslims, simply for being the wrong "type" of Muslim. There are MANY other attacks on Mosques(and Churches) by ..... Muslims. And that is before you get into the attacks of various kinds on non-Muslims for being non-Muslim by ..... Muslims.
:confused:

nomadking 30-03-2019 21:04
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35989200)
:confused:
Are you seriously suggesting that what I said isn't true?

Damien 30-03-2019 21:14
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989202)
Are you seriously suggesting that what I said isn't true?
How is it relevant to what Chris said? He said people are responsible for their own actions.

Sephiroth 30-03-2019 21:52
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35989204)
How is it relevant to what Chris said? He said people are responsible for their own actions.
It's highly relevant to what I said. Some people are dancing around the subject because it is potentially delicate, imo.

ianch99 31-03-2019 11:38
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35989195)
?
If you embed your replies in someone else's then this happens :)

As to your point: if you generalise then, as I mentioned, you can fall into the historical trap I outlined.

You talk about "incompatible cultures". This has no real world meaning as it is too coarse grained to apply in any meaningful sense. It is the Islamist ideology that is the danger here not the Muslim population per se. This distinction must always be made ..

1andrew1 31-03-2019 11:51
Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35989197)
There are MANY cases where Muslims kill other Muslims, simply for being the wrong "type" of Muslim. There are MANY other attacks on Mosques(and Churches) by ..... Muslims. And that is before you get into the attacks of various kinds on non-Muslims for being non-Muslim by ..... Muslims.
I don't see the relevance of this post and it doesn't address Chris's point that you cannot blame the victims of crimes. And, you could cut and paste "Christian" in place of "Muslim" in that sentence if you wanted to.


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