Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Well on that basis, I'm a socialist too. And you remind me of a left wing friend (so left wing he seriously thinks Kinnock sold out to Thatcherism) who thinks I want republican style "right to work" style policies simply because I don't agree with the EU's cap on the hours workers might choose to work. And I'm not ramming anything, this is just political debate.

Sorry to disappoint you. And no I don't think living on minimum wage is "easy". (There are soldiers serving in Afghanistan earning half that per hour.) I think it is a failing of our political system that no mainstream party offers a low tax regime which, properly managed, could be fairer to all sections of society. It could hardly be said that the poorly paid are better off now after the huge public spending increases could it? Elective dictatorship anyone? But I understand you are satisfied with what is on offer so this doesn't concern you! (And the return of indenture would be extreme, don't you think?)

All we can do is complain about the benefits system because none of our politicians has shown much of an inclination to fix it. You are entitled to your faith in the Tories, but I don't share it.

So when can you decide? Were we supposed to take the Tories on trust at the last GE? Are voters in by-elections (like Bromley and Chiselhurst) supposed to take the Tories on trust? And who is proposing tax cuts?

I didn't vote Tory at the last two elections, and the lack of tax cuts was not my main concern. I doubt they lost the election because of tax cutting noises they might have made. And they didn't propose tax cuts at the last election anyway as far as I know.


Some of this I agree with, assuming it's not a squeeze the rich kind manifesto, but I don't think you have factored the EU's considerable influence into your thinking. (At least 70% of our laws are now made under the QMV system, meaning that policies are agreed on an EU wide basis.)

I don't want benefits for genuine claimants cut, and no one really knows what proportion are genuine. But I do know a lot of the non-genuine variety. Women who get pregnant and proudly declare that they'll never have to work again for instance, at the same time as declaring that they don't want anything to do with their babies fathers because they want to be "independant"! I also know other people who are in very genuine need (one with crippling arthritus who still works taking telephone messages) and such people damn well ought to be looked after better. Even official figures suggest that £1.5 billion is lost every year to fraudulent claims. But apologies to you if you are not a Tory.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

and how much lost to tax avoidance? benefit fraudsters get a tonne of bricks upon them, tax dodgers a cosy chat with inland revenue and easy payment options, often which see a reduction in the money owed. organised benefit fraudsters should be clamped on from a great height but many people are so poor because of the benefits system and its many anomalies that they have little choice but to bend the rules in order to survive.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Great post, tax avoiders cost us much more and it's not illegal

Re: Osborne in autism jibe
 

I don't think its a case of not wanting to put back into the system, but tax bands are always a very unfair system. But to be fair and if I was to put myself in the position of a high earner who had achieved success through hard work, I would say

"The system provides better for the ones who are not high earners"

So saying "The system has provided well for them" is possibly a contradiction in many cases, especially those who have been through private education provided by parents able to afford it.

I am not in that class at all, but on the other hand there is no sour grapes on my part and I think it is wrong to have high tax rates to penalise people who have possibly got of their backsides and worked hard to achieve their status.

I was actually shocked in a previous job how much I was actually payiong in tax every month. My salary was about £2k more than my current salary, but due to the company car I ended up paying almost £1300 a month in tax and NI. The net result was quite a few hundred pounds a month less than I get now.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

tax dodgers cost nearer 10billion a year and is around 10 times the amount of benefit fraudsters, of course we all know which is the easiest target and vote winner.

vat dodging was recently on panaroma and I believe that alone was over 3 billion a year.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

personally i think anyone earning, say, over £100k, can afford to pay a few more bob to help those less fortunate. dont forget tax bands only kick in on earnings over the threshold so a 50p rate only on earnings over £100k is hardly likely to leave someone wanting, but could help significantly improve the lives of those living below, on, or not much above the minimum wage.

---------- Post added at 18:01 ---------- Previous post was at 17:59 ----------

there you go then :-)

a lot of recent vat dodging has ben carouseling by organised gangs rather than your traditional tax avoidance - but yep, clamp down because it hits us all. vats a nasty tax though - scattergun.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

It can be swings and roundabouts though, many high earners are in a better position to give larger amounts to charity, sure there are the greedy ones who wouldn't.

If I was in that situation and the government started messing about with the tax bands costing me a lot of money, the charity payments would stop.

At the end of the day, if we both got on a bus and the driver charged me 40pence and charged you 50 pence because you earned more it wouldn't be fair.

I'm not saying I'm totally against the principle, but anything other than a standard tax band with the exception of a lower band for low earners is an unfair system. This country did loose a lot of people due to the brain drain in the 70's, and I'm sure business would possibly take whats left of their factories elsewhere.

We have another issue along similar lines in Wales, I will start a thread to ask views on that one.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

we wouldnt need charity if we had an equitable tax regime. i hate that businesses give to charity angle. apart from the tax benefit angles the first people they call are their pr people so they can tell the world how great they are. i prefer those companies, like funnily enough, ernst and young, whose staff actually get involved in projects with the disadvantaged because that demand real commitment.

well actually the unemployed, elderly and young do pay less on buses soooo..... :-)

businesses will move to cheap labour zones regardless of the tax regime that affects its executives. as for brain drain, we still lose a lot of qualified people who have been through what was once our free higher education system, got their degree or whatever and buggered off. i'd much prefer a free education system but one which ensures graduates must spend X working years in the following 10 or whatever contributing to the uk inland revenue.

Re: Osborne in autism jibe
 

Swings and roundabouts - I had a company car (it went back today); before I accepted the company car, I calculated that the taxable benefit was worth more than buying and maintaining my own car - I was getting an Audi A4 Avant, with all servicing and maintenance and fuel, for £266 per month (40% of taxable benefit value of £8000) - so a brand new £25k Audi estate cost me approx £9600 over three years; if I had bought a new one, it would have depreciated more than that.

Re: Osborne in autism jibe
 

As you say swings and roundabouts, when I had choice of company car upto approx £22K I found I was spending so much time in the bl**dy thing it was no pleasure so didn't care what I had. In fact I would of been quite happy keeping the hire car they provided me when I started.

Many companies have also started charging employees for personal fuel in cases where it was provided. Actually the only reason I didn't buy my own car and claim the £500 a month allowance in that job, was due to other doing the same and being fed up of getting thier cars broken into whilst in hotel car parks, I guess that was one of the benefits of a company car ie: not my problem.

Company car tax is a shambles, and in many ways has become more and more unfair for those who need it for their job and have one through no choice of their own, other than getting another job.

Now I run a car for a lot less than I was paying in company car tax, I dont care a damn what I drive to and from work as long as it gets me there and back home. I refuse to go any distance in it for company business, if I need to go to the airport they provide me a driver to and from it. I spend my money on classic cars instead of losing it on modern ones.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Both lab and tories wont be raising the top rate of income tax anytime soon wont want to upset the people funding them.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Tax avoidance is not illegal although tax dodging is, and the 'rich' are involved in both. No illegal activity should be acceptable. A system which would deal with it would be a vote winner, but our mainstream politicians are patently obviously not interested in such vote winning policies. Another recent radio news report said that illegal workers cost the economy another £3bn a year. (Don't you just love these nicely rounded figures.) And there is no indication that that will change either.

Mainstream politicians support the enlargement of the EU, next in line is Romania and Bulgaria and their 29 million citizens, and even Turkey with its 69 million, 99% of whom are Muslim. All these people will have the right to live anywhere in the EU. What will that do to the our lives, not least the lives of the poor here?

Many people in other EU states are bitterly opposed to Turkey's membership and blame the British for supporting it. :dozey:

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Your point is?

btw
http://www.turkeytravelplanner.com/Religion/index.html
"Because the Turkish Republic is a staunchly secular state, all religious activity is supervised by the government. Citizens are free to worship as they wish, but proselytization is not permitted.
The heads of the major religious communities�t he Chief Mufti, the Chief Rabbi and the Ecumenical Orthodox Patriarch�are officially government employees. Pious endowments (vakif, wakf) are administered by the government, as is all religious real property. Wearing religious garb is permitted in places of worship but prohibited in public areas."

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

Foreverwar

I'm not sure of your point in posting that information. However, my point is that allowing access to the EU of 69 million citizens, 99% of whom are Muslim, in addition to the citizens of Bulgaria and Romania, will not help the poor of the UK or the poor of the rest of the member states of the EU. It won't help any of the people for that matter, and it certainly will not help race relations. These countries have many millions of poor citizens.

Re: Tory economic policy (or lack of?)
 

My point was - why were you highlighting the fact that 99% of Turks were Muslim, when it is a secular society? I was curious as to the relevance of this point. You seem to have clarified it (slightly) with your point re "race relations".

All the Polish Catholics over here don't seem to have caused any problems. :D