Originally Posted by Jerrek

My approach is simple and fast. Look at society 30 years ago, the military, and today.

Originally Posted by Flubflow

That is just another polarised view.

In the U.S.A. you have higher prison sentences than we have. In some places you also have the ultimate negative reinforcement, the death penalty, yet you still have a much higher crime rate than the U.K.
How does that "all evidence shows..." go again?

Originally Posted by Jerrek

You'll forgive me if I'm not going to study the science journals of the last 10 years, read five theses on "upbringing of a child," and pay attention to the experts who have no experience raising children.

My approach is simple and fast. Look at society 30 years ago, the military, and today.

Originally Posted by Flubflow

That is just another polarised view.

In the U.S.A. you have higher prison sentences than we have. In some places you also have the ultimate negative reinforcement, the death penalty, yet you still have a much higher crime rate than the U.K.
How does that "all evidence shows..." go again?

Originally Posted by stuartbe

:Peaceman: Come on guys and Girls... This is supposed to be a reasoned debate about using corporal punishment in U.K. Schools and homes....

Lets not have a row over and start getting personal.... !! PLEASE :)

Play Nice :wavey:

Originally Posted by Jerrek

The ultimate negative reinforcement is very effective. That person never commits another crime again.

Prisons are not as effective as physical punishment. Also, we tend to send people to prison longer than you do. Case in point, a murderer would get life in some states, in the UK he may get 5 years.

Originally Posted by ianathuth

People forget when looking at crime in the USA that there are five times as many people living there as in the UK. In general, people in the UK only get to hear about the really brutal multiple killings, etc in the USA or the odd British subject that is murdered whilst on holiday over there. Many over here take these odd events to be the everyday norm and their judgement is even more clouded by TV shows being mainly American and featuring law and order subjects. If you look at violent crime in the USA it has dropped significantly in the last ten to fifteen years and fallen by 50% in the last ten years. One of the main reasons for this was the introduction of tougher sentencing laws in the late 80s.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

The ultimate negative reinforcement is very effective. That person never commits another crime again.

Originally Posted by Flubflow

I said crime rate (i.e. %) not total number of crimes.
Another thing that helps is that fact that prisons are not as bad as they used to be so that there is a more of a chance that offenders can improve themselves and lessen the chance of them re-offending (the positive way).

Originally Posted by stuartbe

Hey - come on guys... This is suposed to be about the way we bring children up in this country and how to mould them into good people.......

Not being rude to our m8's over the water but I dont live in Canada or the USA so there prison system and crime rates dont bother me........

This is going :notopic: fast....

Originally Posted by stuartbe

Hey - come on guys... This is suposed to be about the way we bring children up in this country and how to mould them into good people.......

Not being rude to our m8's over the water but I dont live in Canada or the USA so there prison system and crime rates dont bother me........

This is going :notopic: fast....

Originally Posted by ianathuth

I don't think that this is going off topic at all Stuart. If we are looking at an issue such as this we have to look at what is going on in countries around the world, how other countries deal with discipline and crime and how effective their way is. We are not an island that behaves in such a unique way that means other countries experiences are not valid here.

Originally Posted by ianathuth

I don't think that this is going off topic at all Stuart. If we are looking at an issue such as this we have to look at what is going on in countries around the world, how other countries deal with discipline and crime and how effective their way is. We are not an island that behaves in such a unique way that means other countries experiences are not valid here.

Originally Posted by ianathuth

Go on then, give us the crime rate percentages for both the UK and USA and how these have altered in the past 10 to 15 years.

Do you honestly think that because prisons are not as bad as they used to be makes prisoners less likely to re-offend? I would have thought that common sense dictates the opposite is true.

Originally Posted by stuartbe

IMO - Criminals are only criminals if they have not been raised correctly. I think that the time to mould and make a someone a good memeber of society is when they are growing up.... Yes we need prisons and punishment's for adults. but I am talking about how we raise our children and if a stricter school system and home life would improve the way that children behave....

Whats that got to do with US crime rates and prisons ? :confused:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Yes it is very effective in that reguard. But you loose a functioning member of society.

Originally Posted by Flubflow

My original post was a very a small one so there was no need for you to snip portions out in the quote. If you think your argument is that strong then there should be no need for you to falsely lessen the impact of mine in this way.

Yes children do learn that a slap means that they have done something wrong. Wouldn't you rather not have to slap them at all and get an even better result (especially the child not crying his/her eyes out and hating you even just for a short time)? Also, with positive discipline there is a certain amount of self-learning and general improvement in attitude so that you lessen the chance of other offences occuring for which you would still have to smack for. Specific reactionary physical punishment is just a series of smacks for specific brands of naughtiness throughout each stage of development until eventually they are too old to be smacked.

Doing things more positively does not mean talking to the child in the fashion of an old hippy cliche after the event. It involves getting more involved with them using all of the time you can spare. If you really wanted to you could read about it, learn and try it out.

Anyway, I am one of the old f*ckers around here. Traditionally I am supposed to be the type that says, "bring back the birch" and all that stuff. If even I can realise that there is a more rewarding way then maybe you should give it some genuine thought.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

You do not see the military handing out candy when the soldiers are obedient. No. They get punished. Hard. Thats why it works in the military.

Originally Posted by ianathuth

One of the biggest causes of lack of discipline in children is the parents having differing views on the subject. I have seen many cases of a child being punished either verbally or physically by one parent and the other parent consoling the child and giving them a cuddle. This leads to confusion in the child about what is right and what is wrong and the child playing off one parent against the other which can eventually lead to marital problems. A child will respond and learn more from parents who have talked over the subject of discipline and formulated rules on the subject.

Originally Posted by Incognitas

So they get punished when they are obedient and punished when they are not.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

How do you figure?


EDIT: OK sorry. Bad translation on my part. I meant to say that they do not get rewarded for good behavior, instead, they get punished for bad behavior.

Originally Posted by abstract2010 (Post 35008828)

Look at the facts, every generation gets worse the further away we move from traditional methods of punishment. Kids are clever and know that nothing of any serious consequence is going to happen to them, so they do what ever they like and get away with it.

Taking that away only allows some children to grow up always believing they can get away with anything and do as they please. All these people who go on about talking to their children and explaining why something is wrong talk out of their backsides, little children do not understand the differences between right and wrong and no amount of explanation is going to fix that, they are after all immature and undeveloped, once a child reaches a certain age of course they can then understand the differences between right and wrong.

A study was done not too long ago showing a part of the brain that scientists believe to be the centre where we develop morals and understanding of right and wrong. In many of the children and teenagers that had major behavioural problems that area was not active and had failed to develop at all.

Why after thousands of years of bringing up children satisfactorily have people suddenly decided that its all wrong and needs to change, and why do these people not understand its ever since we adopted this pathetic softly softly approach to criminals and wrong doing that things have fallen into anarchy.

The thing that makes me laugh is this attitude that has been adopted now that smacking children is a form of child abuse, and people who carry it out are put in the same camp as a real child abuser.

Originally Posted by abstract2010 (Post 35008828)

...snippety snip snip....
Why after thousands of years of bringing up children satisfactorily have people suddenly decided that its all wrong and needs to change, and why do these people not understand its ever since we adopted this pathetic softly softly approach to criminals and wrong doing that things have fallen into anarchy.

The thing that makes me laugh is this attitude that has been adopted now that smacking children is a form of child abuse, and people who carry it out are put in the same camp as a real child abuser.

One of the reasons these kinds of laws were changed apparently was to stop child abuse, and yet its done nothing to stop it, it was always illegal and a recent study has shown an 8% rise in serious harm to children in the UK under the age of 11yrs in the last 2 years alone. All this has achieved is to stop good parents and teachers bringing up children properly and turning them into decent human beings, instead allowing them to become moral lacking trouble causes with a bad attitude.

If the UK does not pull its finger out soon the whole British Isles will need sectioning off as a penal colony.

Things will have to change pretty dramatically in the UK if I was ever to consider moving back there.

People knock China all the time for apparently being uncivilized and having a terrible human rights record. However I believe being civilized is a matter of opinion and it's only upon actually living here that you start to realise just how full of it most people are when commenting on China, its the most civilized nation I have visited in the world, and in comparison to the UK today its like living in paradise.

Sort things out FFS before the UK gets any worse. :td:

Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 35008876)

Ah, the good old days - we had things then that we don't have now; like rickets, diptheria, poorhouses, children working in mines and sweatshops

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35008953)

And you could go out and leave your front door open.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35008968)

I don't believe in hitting, but you don't have to hit to get kids to behave.

I do believe in methods as used in things like brat camp etc. Were they break the will of the child, and don't pander to them. Break them down and build them up.

Those methods are far more effective than ruling by fear.

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35009109)

it's all well and good saying bring back corporal punishment and it will solve al our problems but i don't think it will .I think the time has long gone when it would be possible to reintroduce it without having riots on our hands .It should never have been taken away in the first place and the parents right to discipline should not have been eroded the way it has and looks like being eroded a bit more judging by this story

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35009121)

Let them bring in a total ban. I'll just sit back and watch the whole country go to pot and here the usual phrase. if you can't control your kids without smacking then you have problems.

the problem will become everyone's now.

can you imagine the kids when this gets through in their own kid forum. they'll be shouting we're untouchable. and actually acting like they're more untouchable than they are already.

God help Britain :D

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35009124)

well my 13yr old threatens to sue me at least twice a week for being too harsh on him when i turn his computer off and force him to go outside for some fresh air :shrug:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35009143)

The reality of this. when you put aside the control and upbring of kids. is, you/him/her or me so much as lay a finger on them and you'll be down that cop shop so fast your feet won't touch the floor.

they'll be the states untouchables. and they will rub our noses in it.

can't wait for government figures to come out in a few years to disprove my theory of what caused this country to get the way it will.

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35009144)

it would be interesting to know how other euro countries are fairing with their offspring as most already have this total ban ,and if they are doing better, why

Originally Posted by DaiNasty (Post 35009147)

Trouble is, we only have government statistics to compare these sort of issues and we all know what they're worth..

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35009121)

Let them bring in a total ban. I'll just sit back and watch the whole country go to pot and hear the usual phrase. if you can't control your kids without smacking then you have problems.

the problem will become everyone's now.

can you imagine the kids when this gets through in their own kid forum. they'll be shouting we're untouchable. and actually acting like they're more untouchable than they are already.

God help Britain :D

Originally Posted by budwieser (Post 35009182)

So, Do you have children Gary L?

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35009200)

No :(

Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 35009298)

Maybe if you did you'd be a little less eager to beat them,

Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 35009298)

Maybe if you did you'd be a little less eager to beat them, where else in the world does a democratic country still beat their kids with lengths of bamboo cane?
I had the cane whilst at school in the 70's, being caught with cigarettes was deemed to warrant six strokes on the backside, and it did absolutely nothing to deter bad behavior so much so that boys would opt for four of the cane instead of a Saturday morning detention, which was far worse in our eyes.
All corporal punishment does is desensitize a child to violence, if a teacher has to resort to beating a child nobody wins, corporal punishment belongs well in the past.

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35009322)

I wouldn't want to beat them. I'd just smack them.
this is the story we are talking about. you need to follow the thread properly.

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35009323)

Detentions don't work either.They maybe disliked but eventually they just don't have the punch and they fail to work as a DETERRENT to the rest of the school population.This is what people forget.Punishment is supposed to work on two levels and if the punishment is not a deterrent then it's not a complete success.Then you get more of the school's disaffected thinking that the punishment isn't so bad and that it's worth getting caught.

It's pretty much what many people think is wrong with the present judicial system and the penal system.;)

The only thing that seems to work for a short time is inclusion/seclusion where the miscreant is kept under the eye of the senior management in a seclusion room where they get the work they would have been doing that day and they get no chance to see friends around the campus because they get separate break times etc.

Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 35009426)

I'm sorry you have trouble following a thread Gary, corporal punishment is the cane in school as much as smacking a child is, maybe you'd be better off if you could expand your mind a little.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment

Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 35009298)

Maybe if you did you'd be a little less eager to beat them

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35009447)

I'm so sorry to argue with someone I respect but I have to take issue with you.Smacking is in no way akin to using a cane on a child.I have smacked my children on very few occasions but I've never used cane on either of them.I never would on any child.

Originally Posted by Bifta (Post 146601)

Here's a few reasons why hitting children is wrong (stolen from another site I hasten to add).

1. Hitting children teaches them to become hitters themselves. Extensive research data is now available to support a direct correlation between corporal punishment in childhood and aggressive or violent behavior in the teenage and adult years. Virtually all of the most dangerous criminals were regularly threatened and punished in childhood. It is nature's plan that children learn attitudes and behaviors through observation and imitation of their parents' actions, for good or ill. Thus it is the responsibility of parents to set an example of empathy and wisdom.

2. In many cases of so-called "bad behavior", the child is simply responding in the only way he can, given his age and experience, to neglect of basic needs. Among these needs are: proper sleep and nutrition, treatment of hidden allergy, fresh air, exercise, and sufficient freedom to explore the world around him. But his greatest need is for his parents' undivided attention. In these busy times, few children receive sufficient time and attention from their parents, who are often too distracted by their own problems and worries to treat their children with patience and empathy. It is surely wrong and unfair to punish a child for responding in a natural way to having important needs neglected. For this reason, punishment is not only ineffective in the long run, it is also clearly unjust.

3. Punishment distracts the child from learning how to resolve conflict in an effective and humane way. As the educator John Holt wrote, "When we make a child afraid, we stop learning dead in its tracks." A punished child becomes preoccupied with feelings of anger and fantasies of revenge, and is thus deprived of the opportunity to learn more effective methods of solving the problem at hand. Thus, a punished child learns little about how to handle or prevent similar situations in the future.

4. †œSpare the rod and spoil the childââ‚ƚ¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ�, though much quoted, is in fact a misinterpretation of Biblical teaching. While the †œrodâà ƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ã‚¬Ã‚ÂÂÂ� is mentioned many times in the Bible, it is only in the Book of Proverbs that this word is used in connection with parenting. The book of Proverbs is attributed to Solomon, an extremely cruel man whose harsh methods of discipline led his own son, Rehoboam, to become a tyrannical and oppressive dictator who only narrowly escaped being stoned to death for his cruelty. In the Bible there is no support for harsh discipline outside of Solomonââ‚à ‚¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s Proverbs. By contrast, the writings in the Gospels, the most important books in the Bible for Christians, contain the teachings of Jesus Christ, who urged mercy, forgiveness, humility, and non-violence. Jesus saw children as being close to God, and urged love, never punishment.3

5. Punishment interferes with the bond between parent and child, as it is not human nature to feel loving toward someone who hurts us. The true spirit of cooperation which every parent desires can arise only through a strong bond based on mutual feelings of love and respect. Punishment, even when it appears to work, can produce only superficially good behavior based on fear, which can only take place until the child is old enough to resist. In contrast, cooperation based on respect will last permanently, bringing many years of mutual happiness as the child and parent grow older.

6. Many parents never learned in their own childhood that there are positive ways of relating to children. When punishment does not accomplish the desired goals, and if the parent is unaware of alternative methods, punishment can escalate to more frequent and dangerous actions against the child.

7. Anger and frustration which cannot be safely expressed by a child become stored inside; angry teenagers do not fall from the sky. Anger that has been accumulating for many years can come as a shock to parents whose child now feels strong enough to express this rage. Punishment may appear to produce "good behavior" in the early years, but always at a high price, paid by parents and by society as a whole, as the child enters adolescence and early adulthood.

8. Spanking on the buttocks, an erogenous zone in childhood, can create in the child's mind an association between pain and sexual pleasure, and lead to difficulties in adulthood. "Spanking wanted" ads in alternative newspapers attest to the sad consequences of this confusion of pain and pleasure. If a child receives little parental attention except when being punished, this will further merge the concepts of pain and pleasure in the child's mind. A child in this situation will have little self-esteem, believing he deserves nothing better. For more on this topic, see "The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children" (also in French).

Even relatively moderate spanking can be physically dangerous. Blows to the lower end of the spinal column send shock waves along the length of the spine, and may injure the child. The prevalence of lower back pain among adults in our society may well have its origins in childhood punishment. Some children have become paralyzed through nerve damage from spanking, and some have died after mild paddlings, due to undiagnosed medical complications.

9. Physical punishment gives the dangerous and unfair message that "might makes right", that it is permissible to hurt someone else, provided they are smaller and less powerful than you are. The child then concludes that it is permissible to mistreat younger or smaller children. When he becomes an adult, he can feel little compassion for those less fortunate than he is, and fears those who are more powerful. This will hinder the establishment of meaningful relationships so essential to an emotionally fulfilling life.

10. Because children learn through parental modeling, physical punishment gives the message that hitting is an appropriate way to express feelings and to solve problems. If a child does not observe a parent solving problems in a creative and humane way, it can be difficult for him to learn to do this himself. For this reason, unskilled parenting often continues into the next generation.

Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 35009426)

I'm sorry you have trouble following a thread Gary, corporal punishment is the cane in school as much as smacking a child is, maybe you'd be better off if you could expand your mind a little.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment