Re: Traffic Shaping
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...5&postcount=11


In ntl 'Bromley' network areas this becomes:

8Mhz wide 64QAM downstream, symbol rate 6.592Msym/s @ 6b/sym = 38Mbps payload
8MHz wide 256QAM downstream, symbol rate 6.952Msym/s @ 8b/sym = 51Mbps payload.

This is per downstream, not per uBR, each area can be fed more than one downstream but ntl aren't doing this at this time (Telewest are).

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Yes it doesn't make any sense from the outset but thats how it is. Remember, not everybody are usenet leechers like some of us ;)

Depending on where you are across the network, on the downstream side in original areas it would either be 27mbps or 42mbps per card depending on the QAM and 38mbps in ex c&w areas. I don't know whether higher modulation is in operation in these areas.

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thats why your/they are mad to pay top teir prices if they do traffic shaping, whats the point in paying so much but you cannot use it, you might as well pay less and still be crippled.

Bring back modems i say

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Langley is the same as the TW specs I assume. I keep forgetting which I am but I think its langley. Has someone got the info for the bromley and langley areas?

Also why dont ntl make their entire network the same although it may cost a fair bit to rip out their langley stuff but having some people on 51mbps and others on 27 clearly is quite a difference some areas will have almost double the bandwidth available which probably explains the massive differences some people have with speeds. But once the network as a whole is all the same platform it ensures less of a postcode lottery so more fairness and no hassle of running 2 different platforms. Its a 2 tier service, customer A in area A might have digital tv services,VOD,10meg zipping along on a 51mpbs ubr and customer B in area B may have analogue tv, 10meg going at 1meg on a 27mbps ubr.

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Dont worry thats what i have done. A DSL modem :)

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I think sollp made a post a while back claiming the qam256 isnt been rolled out yet when I queried about mine still been qam64.

---------- Post added at 18:19 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

I missed this, so I have read on here that telewest's network is apperently worse but at least they have the decency to use multiple channels for downstream. Is their a reason for ntl to not do this, it must be cheaper then a ubr reseg.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Lincoln uses 256 QAM AFAIK. I don't think its a case of rolling it out everywhere, I'm sure again there are tighter noise specs and some areas may just plain not need it.

Probably more of a money issue and that channel bonding being the future.

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I know some areas have the 256qam, I mentioned it then before I was going to ask why it isnt here where there is massive download contention sollp came in and told me its not been rolled out yet.

I can guess why the downstream bonding isnt active and that is ntl have too many channels still used by analogue and cost since they seem very reluctant to spend money. Perhaps the 27meg ubrs should come with bonded channels to provide a service comparable to the 51meg ubrs.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I am reluctant to post this, but I am getting a torrent down at 'up to' 200 KB/s, if this is shaping, bring it on ;)

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I was hitting 800kB/s on a "LEGAL" Linux Torrent!!!! :p:

This traffic shaping is good sh*t lol!!

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You won't be saying that when it is going at 20KBs

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you guys going on about the shaping and high speeds, the shaping probably isnt active yet.

I get 50kB right now :(

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QoS shaping not set up, 256 QAM currently only on Langley Platform, 100Mb trials underway.......... slow speeds at peak time... not rocket science guys & gals.....probably bandwidth utilisation, don't forget the kids are on holidays!!:Yikes:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Interesting you say 256QAM only on langley does that mean all of langley? which would mean no 27meg downstream channels left, or as I expect its not fully rolled out on the platform.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

256QAM isn't completely rolled out on Langley, although Bromley platform offers same bandwidth on 64QAM roughly as Langley does on 256.

Kids being on holiday will bring more usage in the day doesn't make a *huge* difference to util in peak times.

100Mbit trials underway, not 100% sure what relevance this has dude. Ashford trial's traffic will be controlled and certainly won't be heavy enough to upset the local area or the national core.

Do you have explanation for those areas where the speeds are poor but there is no congestion either on core or access networks, and uBRs are not overstretched in terms of processor?

Can you also explain why some people are seeing really insanely low speeds even though there isn't a clear fault present on the network or their equipment?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

James I dont know even tho you are reffering to RonJon, ever since monday this week which I think is when the school holidays started my peak time speeds took another nosedive and I am getting around 50kB (under 0.5mbit) on my 10mbit. Usually I could hit 10mbit between 1 and 2am depending on how busy that day is but now have to wait till after 4am, it does speed up at 1am but only to about 3mbit. There has been investigations on my speeds but no fault was found although it does appear to be congestion related due to the time of day occurances, if I run a traceroute or ping test at 5am I can get better pings whilst I am maxing my line at 5am then I do on a idle line at 7pm, so at least in my case it appears contention is involved. It also appears to be very heavy contention as I am seeing speeds as low as 1/20th of my max speed and can only currently max out for under 1/4 of the day.

I have been trying to confirm if I am langley or bromley and the references I found reffered to langley digital platform, bromley digital tv platform and analogue platforms. As I am in a analogue only area is it the case I am on neither or am I on langley? I am fairly sure it isnt bromley.

As you appear to be in the know on their current network status could you be kind enough to comment on if their is going to be any extra download channels opened up especially on langley ubrs since they offer significantly less bandwidth then bromley.

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You are in a Langley area if your downstream frequency on your modem syncs at 402750000 hz.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

What was your Cable Co called before it was NTL?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Leicester was Diamond cable which i'm 99% sure comes under the Langley side of things.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

He's Langley, old old Langley!;)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

also confirmed on the downstream frequency so we have someone saying most of langley is upgraded but not all and surprise surprise my area isnt upgraded, wow we getting somewhere, its like withdrawing excalibur getting information on ntl's network.

So 27mbit downstream which appears to be a minority of ntl's network this is explaining why performances are so different on different postcodes and I have such big problems.

I still think ntl dont realise the true extenct of the problems their is some serious downstream contention going on the most I have ever experienced on broadband since I started using it in 2000.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

If by upgraded you mean 256qam, then not many areas have been upgraded yet.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Ok what about channel bonding? any plans?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Chrysalis, I'm willing to bet my mum that we know bugger all compared to the people who actually run the show, I'm sure they are more then fully aware of the situation, they probably just can't deal with the situation for one reason or another...money, already pushing the tech too far, coffee machine broken down etc..

Higher order modulation will ease the pain, but really, channel bonding is where its at in improving the situation wholeheartedly. We can be rest assured though, that the speeds would be upped, hopefully not to the extent that it would negate the greater available bandwidth to give some kind of marketable return to the peeps up top. Its going to be an every man for himself if if they offer 100mb over 4 bonded channels but then its not like we are going to get those kind of speeds from anywhere anyway.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Dude I can see you have an interest and need to get a job with a cable company to use that interest a bit and see how things work in the real world. What you're discussing is still experimental technology and no standard has been finalised and ratified.

Bonded channels aren't necessary to run 10Mbit, in Sweden UPC are delivering 24/8 without bonding channels, and in Chrysalis' case the performance issues are I believe a bit of a mystery and the situation isn't nearly as bad as he thinks.

A part of the reason for it being easier there is I guess that UPC don't feel the need to fill their entire downstream spectrum with crap DTV multiplexes full of ****e that hardly ever gets watched, and instead save channels here and there to shove some of that lovely stuff that really makes the money, broadband, down.

If you're that interested ntl could remove congestion issues in some areas overnight without resegmentation if there's a channel free and a card available, no need to do any physical work outside of the headend. I guess there are certain reasons why they aren't, probably procedural / managerial actually.

I would imagine if it weren't for having to get things signed off in blood by about 10 different departments they could quite effectively resolve most issues through a combo of 2nd downstreams and 16QAM returns. Only areas where the upstream is incapable of supporting the additional power demands of the 16QAM, the channel plan is so full there's not even a single channel available for another DOCSIS downstream, or there's not an MC28U card available would this potentially be an issue.

BTW network condition is in most cases not an excuse for 16QAM being an 'issue', considering that I know of operators in Europe and North America who run 6.4MHz wide 64QAM upstreams with DOCSIS 2 which are far more demanding on the network.

With your allergy to contention you'd be scared if you knew how many 512k, 1Mbit and 2Mbit home users BT have been able to cram onto a 4Mbit pipe in the past with no issues ;)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

heh I think you was replying to me rather then jtwn, bonded channels yeah I meant just enable extra channel rather then actually bonding them.

It must be incredibly inefficent to do a full reseg when its only downstream filled up and upstream is fine and opening up a 2nd downstream is cheaper,faster and quicker.

the reason why I think it is bad, I have suffered contention before on nildram when they admitted they had capacity issues and they had a bt central on order (those things take months to commission) they were approximately 20% overutilised in peak hours and I was seeing about 5-15kB knocked of a max 60kB speed, the other times I have been under contention is under ntl on 1.5mbit and 2mbit again both times the amount wasnt that bad probably lost about 30% of my speed and most of the day was ok. This is the first time I have lost 95% of my speed.

I dont see whats a msytery about my situation, it slows down in the evenings when more people are online and speeds up in the early morning. It isnt rocket science. Factor in as well loads of work was done at my property to rule out a local issue and other work has been done at the ubr to rule out other possibilities, you are right I dont know 100% it is not contention but given the noise made from this and my issue got escalated I would think if it was something simple it would have been resolved by now.

I see 2 channels used up to promote ntl products on my analogue tv and one to show price drop tv, so thats 3 channels easily freed up, I guess ntl made their choice on what they think is good use for their channels. No DTV here.

To add about BT cramming users in, I dont care if they put 10000 in as long as they get performance issues, the key thing there would be is do they react when speed complaints come in, isp's should know now you cant use hard numbers to justify upgrades, 200 customers might be fine in one area and 20 might be too much in another area, if an isp doesnt like upgrading with just 20 customers then they should redesign their product portfolio to something they can handle.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

In areas such as Leicester NTL have to think about how long they will be using the current technology for the supply of broadband. It is no good making massive investment in the current infrastructure if it is going to be obselete in the not too distant future.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Maybe I should get a job with them but it isn't very reassuring when every ex/ntl employee doesn't really have, well anything good to say about them ;)

I say channel bonding is where its at because as its regularly drilled into everybody here, ntl is a company where money is where its at and I know what sounds better to investors if the say they have eased congestion or eased congestion and offered higher and better speeds.

I don't mean to argue or patronise with such a fountain of knowledge since you obviously know more about these things I do but multiple downstreams is the same as bonding, just we get thre bonus of being able to use that spare bandwidth across them when its not being used.

Also with those taking the leet tier are shifted off to other channels for the new tech, everybody can be happy. I'm at least half right, aren't I? ;)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Nah you misunderstand, channel bonding requires brand new modems, new CMTS, etc, whereas running multiple downstreams is doable with existing kit. While UWB DOCSIS is fantastic it's still a work in progress.

The 'leet' tier isn't going to get pushed to the other channels with the new tech, you'll all be sharing one giant channel, remember? ;)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

No, I do understand it requires a silicon change everywhere! I say the leet tiers are pushed onto the new tech, because its not like they are going to dump the entire existing system with the investment they've put in it. Not yet at least.

It would just be like running the DAVIC and DOCSIS system running concurrently but with another on top of that. Thats in theory how I see it, the key word being I ;)

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Leicester = Langley

---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

I'd love to go back to work for ntl. I enjoyed working there.

Trouble is the management are firfighting at the moment due to bad decisions and a lack of cash and the required staff. Look at the staff that have left, ignition, bill c etc. These are highly qualified dedicated staff that are leaving because theres no money to keep them on or they are sick of the situation.

Some one at ntl needs to grow some balls and draw a line in the sand and say this is where we stop getting worse and put some pro active measures in place.

Give me 3 weeks and I could reduce the amount of inbound calls to the ntl tech support centre by 30%. Mostly through putting a better communication plan in place and also a better staff grouping and IVR. The cost savings from that alone would be huge.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I've been on 10MB since january or so and I am one happy chappy with the service. :)

Peak time I usually get speeds around 800KB/s - 900KB/s which is great, nightime I always hit over 1000KB/s, normally 1.1MB/s.

I think NTL can handle the fast speeds all day long without no problems, but they say this statement to cut costs & make more profit, after all they are a business.

:tu:

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I do understand this view point but then you do one of the following.

1 - dont release a product that the infrastructure cant cope with. (revoke 10mbit)

2 - replace the infrastructure with the new technology.

You cant just leave things how they are on the basis that its obsolete technology.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Look at the Isle of Dogs.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Why?

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NTL are stopping supplying everything there, not economical to upgrade to digital as would be required by govt.

Although I'm not sure if they were actually getting paid by most of the customers there or if it was all MATV.

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 17:56 ----------

It's a requirement of DOCSIS 3 CMTS, just as it was DOCSIS 2, that they are backwards compatible.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I still wonder if ntl will pull out of parts of leics come the crunch point of everything moving to digital, at one stage the network will need rehauling and I have heard mixed info of what will happen.

Seems to me not only is their service variable region by region but their budgets are as well, isle of dogs why isnt it subsidised by other areas that are highly lucrative and upgraded anyway?

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I would hope thats the areas of Leicester that are analogue such as LE3 are economical to upgrade.

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http://www.ntl.com/locales/gb/en/inv...w-final-vr.pdf
Here is a link for some details on the future of the Ntl network as you can see it only costs an extra 10p per house to change to 256qam which i think is quite cheap and only an exta £1per house for dual channel you just have to remember to multiply this by 100,000 per headend soon starts adding up but is interesting reading anyway has helped me underrstand how the network works a lot better.:) .

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that is a great document, but I wonder if 18 months on, it is already superceded in some respects?

- shows how complicated it all is, though, if nothing else, we think it is just our little wire to the street box ;)

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Yes it is a very interesting document im sure by going on what ignition,bbking and quadplay all very well respected posters say most things seem the same now with most plans seem to be reasonably on track.

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lets hope the dual channel downstream is out of evaluation stage now.

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Heh I dunno when that document was written the ntl core was about as QOS / MPLS enabled as a baseball bat.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Traffic shaping has already beein bypassed by the new Torrent programs by using encryption

Currently there are only a few Bit Torrent clients that uses Transport Encryption or Protocol Encryption. I know Azureus and uTorrent both do.

The encryption prevents your ISP from listening on your bit torrent ports and employing traffic shaping techniques to limit your torrent bandwidth.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

That's an entirely new debate. Amusingly the guy who actually invented BT suggests that encryption is a waste of time, I agree with him.

However the nerds who develop this stuff are wonderfully detached from reality so you'll probably end up with the inevitable escalation where everything gets shaped unless the ISP confirms that it is what it claims it is.

Same kinda story as happened with firewalls, they used to block known dangers but thanks to abuse these days they only let known good stuff through.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Fine, so they can't tell for sure what you are doing. They may just traffic shape the encrypted data.

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I'd be interested to know, I use utorrent 1.5 with encryption, if I understand correct, it's meant to show up as 'normal' net traffic, surely they can't shape on that, can they :shrug:

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I have to admit, I've not really looked too deeply into it, so I could be wrong, but there will be some sort of pattern they can look for, there would have to be, as other bittorrent clients wouldn't recognise it.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

Yeah their are other ways.

Traffic coming in via high number of sources, usually p2p
Traffic coming in high pps, usually p2p
Outgoing connection to known tracker ports, shape following traffic assume p2p
If needed just shape all encrypted traffic.

All of these especially the last will catch innocent traffic at the expense of people determined to rape bandwidth.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

as has been proved time and again there corprate interests are vastly more important than customer experience next thing well know all but 80 and 21 will be blocked

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

End of day encryption is irrelevant really, companies can start throttling the amount of connections / traffic flows each customer is allowed to make preventing them from contacting many sources and resulting in shaping of most P2P anyway.

Bram Cohen, inventor of Bittorrent, accepts the need for give and take between users and their ISPs, sadly the zealots who develop things like Azureus take it as a personal affront that an ISP would dare to tell you what you can and can't do with their network.

http://bramcohen.livejournal.com/29886.html

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I think that's taking it a bit far. The ISPs have a limited supply of bandwidth and do what they need to manage it. The Azureus (and other BT client) developers only do what they need to do to stay ahead of the curve with their product - which is driven by the users. If all users were a bit more considerate of bandwidth limitations (or the bandwidth was their in the first place depending on how you look at it) then the encrytion functionality still wouldn't be in the clients.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

That doesn't really make any sense to me. Users were inconsiderate towards ISPs, ISPs fight back with shaping, BT client developers give users the facilities to remain that way.

I don't see how what I said takes it too far. No-one put a gun to the developer's heads and demanded the encryption / obfuscation the developers decided to do this to get around the shaping.

http://www.slyck.com/news.php?story=1083

uTorrent dev seems more up for a race with the ISPs than anything else.

Shame he'll lose: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/71579 encryption won't touch that.

As I said before, worst case thanks to the 'free the bits' devs we'll end up with everything shaped unless the ISP knows for a fact it's not P2P.

EDIT: If anything these guys are really kicking themselves in the nuts, small ISPs who can't afford to shape will have to cap or go out of business, traffic shaping companies will make more money and be kept going by the 'arms race'.

It really is a long term no-win, even if in the short term it means improved performance for some.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

I'm not arguing that people trying to bypass traffic shaping is a good thing - traffic shaping is the best way of making sure that the right services get the priority they need without leaving bandwidth left over doing nothing.

I just don't think it's fair to blame developers for trying to bypass it. Any product is made to get market share (even the free ones like Azureus although don't forget they do have a commercial version) which means new features are based on user feedback. And user feedback stated "moan moan whinge whine - my ISP doesn't let me download more rubbish than I can watch/use/listen to".

Like I say, I'm not arguing for them - when the inevitable 'traffic shape anything encrypted' comes in, my VPN connection to the office is screwed :(. Just trying to say that you should still look to the users rather than the developers - especially for something open source where some people will be users AND developers.

Re: Traffic Shaping
 

It's precisely those users that are developers I imagine that initially implemented this stuff. Probably got upset at getting traffic shaped.

While most people were a bit upset at being traffic shaped I doubt there were calls for encrypted clients. Indeed they are still in the minority and the compatibility does indeed suck.