Re: Muslims to march in London
 

"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Angry
Denmark is the only Scandanavian country to throw it's full weight, both in the form of troops and diplomatic backing, behind the US led occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Hence, an obvious target for this action.

So not likely to come from within..."

I'm sorry, but up until this moment there have been no attacks on Denmark as a result of their involvement with Iraq / Afghanistan. You'd have thought they'd be happy to leave good enough alone but apparently the freedom of speech is more important than the sanctity of the lives of their citizens.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Sure, except of course: Bali, Egypt, Algeria, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and the Yemen. And that's just off the top of my head. I am sure there are probably more.

Only incident I know of, of Christianity (2.1 billion followers, twice that of Islam) were a couple of abortion clinic bombings in the US in the 90's. Aside from that, you probably have to go back a couple of hundred years. Before you mention it, The Troubles wern't about religion, they were about politics.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Why on earth should it come to that ?? :rolleyes: "Don't upset us or we'll kill you." (or at least threaten to).

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Ok Punky, against my better judgement, I'll bite.

Bali, Egypt, Algeria, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia and the Yemen were, and still are, domestic disputes that were raging long before 9/11 and "the war on terror". Indeed some of those mentioned are internecine muslim feuds with nothing, whatsoever, to do with the west. There were bombs going off in all of these countries YEARS brfore 9/11 and the war on terror and no one gave a flying one about it.

Had you grasped the context of my original post you'd have realized that was not what I was getting at. You either condone and accept the validity and results of war or you don't, there is no middle ground.

Yes, of couse, you would know. How silly of me!

"The Troubles", as you so eloquently put it, was a terminology used by the British Government to politicize the reality of what was going on on their doorstep. Interestingly two successive PM's announced that "The war is over" post ceasefires.

Understand this. What happened in Northern Ireland was a war. We have a population of over 1.5 million people who can attest to the fact and thousands of dead to prove it. We also have entire cities, towns and villages still divided, demographically, on the basis of religion. Our district councils and wards are, to this day, decided on religious make up and not political demographics.

We also have more integrity than to peddle some tabloid derived nonsense purporting to sell the myth that what happened here over the last thirty years was politically motivated.

Please, don't insult your own integrity by trying to insult mine, it serves no purpose.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Which disproves your point that all/most Islamic violence is in retailation to western invasions.

Hang on, we aren't talking about war, we are talking about terrorist attacks carried out in the name of religion. You brought up the theory that all terrorist attacks are in retaliation to western wars against Islam, which I am still waiting for you to prove.

I don't claim to be an expert on the situation, certainly over a Northern Irish resident. I've never even been there. However I mentioned it because I thought it was a good chance you'd come back with <insert suitable description for the situation in Northern Island from the 1960s to 1998>, and I wanted to head off that by mentioning that I don't consider <insert suitable description for the situation in Northern Island from the 1960s to 1998> to be religiously motivated.

When have I tried to insult you? You seriously have one big chip on your shoulder. In addition, I consider:

to be rather insulting, rude, immature and actually quite inflammatory.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

And you thought Freedom Fries was a stupid idea...

Linky

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Again you've chosen to misinterpret my points.

Let me be absolutely clear. I am stating that prior to 9/11 and the "war on terror" atrocitices carried out by muslims against others (including other muslims) was not meritorious of the attentions, and certainly not the military might, of the west. It was all well and good to let them carry on kill ing each other as long as it wasn't "us" who were suffering. This exact same methodology of "not in our back yard" was as much a contributory factor in the execution of the holocaust as it is in the modern xenophobic frenzy against muslims - get used to it.

Your interpretation of "war" is irrelevant, as indeed is mine. In order for a conflict to exist there needs to be a minimum of two sides, on that we have to agree - it is an inaliable fact. In the event that one of the parties to the conflict purports to be a democratic entity, or is percieved as such, that side, throughout history, will invariably call their opponents "Terrorists". A convenient moniker that conjures up all sorts of supposedly demonic and evil images in the minds of right thinking "democrats" and which clearly establishes the democracy as the "good guy". Now, consider this. At what point did Nelson Mandela make the transition from convicted "terrorist" to international statesman and champion of equal rights and freedom of speech? When did Osama Bin laden cease to be a mujahadeen freedom fighter funded by the CIA fighting the russian forces in Afghanistan and suddenly become an (unconvicted) terrorist?

You need to understand that there are those in the muslim communty who believe that they are at war and they see the west and its allies to be terrorists. Are they not entitled to freedom of speech, freedom of thought or should they simply cow tow to the propaganda that we are all fed day and daily like sheep? The murderous acts that they carry out are seen by them as acts of bravery in much the same way that the bombing of Dresden was seen as the actions of a war hero. There are still relatives of nazi officers who cherish the medals their fathers and grandfathers were awarded for manning the death camps. The fact is that if you want to sanitize genocide or terrorism you simply relabel it as war or freedom fighting. Lets be frank about this. If you glorify war you will pay the price because someone WILL put you to the test, of that you can be sure.

No one in this situation is right, no one. There can only be one winner in this scenario in its current context and that is hate. I'm not here to discuss the semantics of free speech, I'm here simply to state, based on my experience, that if this current situation of ignorance, intolerance and paranoia is not addressed then more needless blood will be spilt, families will be destroyed and loved ones lost. Believe me when I tell you, and I sincerely want you to reflect on this, it will not be easy for any advocate of free speech, on either side, to look the relatives of the next victim in the eye and say "you know what, I supported the right to publish those cartoons". With free speech comes responsibility, sadly we're not seeing much of that.

I hope I've made my point about war / terrorism. They are one and the same. Their end results are the same, their actions are differentiated, in the main, only by uniforms and mindsets. One mans war is another mans terror campaign. One mans freedom fighting is another mans terrorism, I'm sure you get where I'm coming from. As I said earlier its a matter of disarming the mindset. Working to achieve that will develop a greater understanding and mutual respect. Cases in point? Northern Ireland and South Africa, to name but two, where those previously denounced as "terrorists" have, and are, delivering a lasting peace.

With reference to your Northern Ireland comments. I appreciate what you are saying in relation to why you made the comment but, as I have clearly pointed out in my previous post, please don't try to preempt what you quite obviously didn't understand. I don't mean that to sound condescending in any fashion but I'm uneasy with the thought that this "political war" nonsense still permeates. The fact is that the end solution is political - but the reality for thirty years was a religious based sectarian war / terrorism.

Perhaps we should both stop feeling insulted by each others comments and set a precedent whilst we're on the subject of mutual respect and understanding?

From our pointed debates I understand that we both, essentially, are against war / terrorism in whatever guise. So, how do we bring about a broader realization of our consensus that killing other human beings "in the name of...." is wrong?

Peace out.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

You know, I could have sworn that the Clinton administration used it's military might against a certain "chemical factory" long before 9/11 after a terrorist attack.
In fact, wasn't the Clinton administration quite active in anti-al qaida actions?


Just so that we're not mistaken, are you saying that what most people consider to be terrorists are not evil? That the actions they take, blowing up civilians who just want to go about their business are not evil actions?

February 11, 1990

When was he considered a freedom fighter by the west? And I don't mean the media, I mean by the US goverment, as from what I know he was never seen as that, just as a tool to cause the Russians problems.

Are you saying they should cow tow to the anti-west propaganda, like the dossier the danish imams took to the middle east with the sole purpose of causing outrage?

Bovine excriment! A terrorist is not a freedome fighter! The only people who try that line are ones who try to justify what terrorists do!
Who the hell is trying to glorify war, oh hang on, the islamic extremists are with their calls for jihad, despite such calls being totally against the rules of jihad in the koran!

What comes after umpteenth?
Can anyone tell me?
Because last time I said for the umpteenth time, and no I have to say it again.
The images that were published by the newspapers are not the ones which caused the offence, the images of a man dressed up as a pig with the added caption "the true face of muhammad," a muslim praying while being humped by a dog, and muhammad portrayed as a demonic paedophile because of his 9 year old wife, in addition to the right wing anti-islamic propoganda are what caused the offence!
Other muslims who haven't even seen the cartoons, let alone the offensive images and documents, joined the objection because they were told as muslims they should object by other muslims, without really knowing what they're objecting to.

Justifying terrorism again?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I couldn't help noticing that Xaccers avatar looks a tad on the terroristy side

:erm:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Who me? *innocent look*

Terrorist:
http://www.obsidian-asylum.net/G36/khan.jpg

Airsofters:
http://www.obsidian-asylum.net/G36/barricade.jpg

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

yeah - what are you doing up at this hour? planning textual atrocities?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Working nights with one of my many muslim colleagues :)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

:LOL:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I was listening to a couple of podcasts tonight and I sort of got the impression that the 'prophet' was a kind of model person to be emulated as he was, evidently, the epitomy of living type of thing. And it sort of occurred to me that people burning this and trashing that were not quite living up to that ideal? I will stand corrected :erm:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Nice piece of cherry picking Xaccers,

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Both, actually - only many times more complicated than that.

---------- Post added at 08:20 ---------- Previous post was at 08:16 ----------

If that were only the case - the root of the problems go back hundreds of years.

---------- Post added at 08:32 ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 ----------

Another excellent post.

And I don't want to disagree with the main message you bring, except that the examples you have cited were indeed conflicts around very strongly held beliefs which were very savagely defended.

Yet, I don't think in either case it descended into the kind of fanatacism that bore up suicide bombers. Even when religion was a core element of the conflict.

In this case, it goes further in that the stated aim of the religion is to dominate. Not a mindset that's going to be easy to disarm...

---------- Post added at 08:36 ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 ----------

That one behind and to the right of you looks like an Islamic terrorist to me... ;)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Well unfortunately you tend to get described as 'interfering' if you try to sort out other peoples troubles. Until that is they bring those 'troubles' to us and involve us. :rolleyes:

So why do they choose to come and live amongst us ? The enemy within ? :erm:

Absolutely yes, but they get more freedoms here than in their 'ancestral homeland', but unfortunately for them it also gives 'us' those same freedoms.


Again unfortunately, even in a war situation there are some actions that come outside of just 'fighting for freedom' - Dresden, Hiroshima, Twin Towers, the Holocaust. These are not 'heroic' actions, they are designed to destroy morale and do nothing to advance their 'cause' and the only ones who glorify the current crop of atrocities are the muslims in the name of the fight for Islam.

I always wonder why these people decided to come and live amongst us, knowing our religious, political and social attitudes and then decide they don't like our 'ways' and try to change them ??

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Absalutely! That, imo, is the height of arrogance and insensitivity. Whenever us westeners go to foreign countries and try to impose our values on them we are quite rightly lambasted for doing so.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

It just keeps going because there are people ready to fan the flames:
What are they hoping to achieve?
As I've said before, I don't think the cartoon issue is about freedom of speech any more - it's now being used with a view to inciting global jihad.

No apology from Denmark would change that. They could even hand over the 'culprits' to Islamic fundamentalists to murder, and still I'm sure it would rage on.

The only way forward is for the supposed majority of moderate and peaceful Muslims to thwart the extremists. But can they? Do they want to?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I wonder what the reaction will be to this guy (from a link on punky's page above). :Yikes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

You think that is explosive?

Between the reports of British brutality in Iraq plus new Abu Ghraib pictures I'd say that WWIII is not far off...

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If anyone touches him, or worse injuries/kills him it will prove what the Danish paper's set out to. It already has done in a round about way.

Anyone who wears a shirt like that I think is in serious and immediate danger.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I think that anyone (particularly a minister) who wears a shirt like that is an irresponsible idiot as well. He says the t-shirts are not meant as a provocation. Well, what does he expect will happen?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Steps in the right direction

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I have attended many talks/discussions where Hamza Yusuf has been the main speaker, the most recent one being last week, where a lot of the discussion concerned the cartoon issue and how to deal with it.

I would recommend anyone here to read stuff by Hamza Yusuf (not to be mistaken for Abu Hamza), and you will draw a lot of positiveness from what renowned scholars are saying about Islam.

The problem in the UK is that we've had front page coverage of rantings by Abu Hamza, and similar idiots while the press seem to ignore the speeches given by scholars such as Hamza Yusuf who actually have a much larger following then the extremist element.

I would also recommend Zaid Shakir to those who want to hear more from visionary islamic scholars

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

That's the point. He wants to be assaulted. He wants someone to bite knowing he can turn around and say "Look, I told you they were like this..". He has a vested interest in this because of his anti-immigrant platform he is running on. He wants to martyr himself to hurt the migrant/Muslim cause.

I don't think anyone wearing that shirt for whatever reason excuses any form of violence against the person. However, it highlights more than ever the need for restraint from all Muslims, extremist or otherwise.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The Government has ammended the terror bill to re include glorifying

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

What a difference a couple of months makes in government...:rolleyes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

And some placards. You can't buy that publicity. What a timely reminder to the MPs of what they are up against.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Goverment seems to have had a good week, everyone had doom day predictions for Blair because of the 3 votes this week

Is the education bill this week

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Orior has just started a separate thread on that issue, there is an overlap between this thread and that one but it's worth trying to keep them distinct. Anyone with something to say about it can see it here:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...ad.php?t=43121

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The muslims cant complain since some placards were saying no to freedom of speach so they got that part :)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I thought it was on topic, and not worth its own thread, but never mind.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Please use the quotes tag.


Was it sanctioned by King Fahd? No.
Were the 9/11 bombers working for the Saudi monarchy, or did some of them happen to just be Saudi citizens? That would be the latter wouldn't it?
Is the Saudi monarchy and ally to Al Qeada or a foe? That would be foe, after King Fahd chose the allied forces to protect Saudi Arabia against Saddam during the first gulf war.
So, considering the Saudi's are fighting Al Qaeda, why on earth would the US go to war with them?


Any deliberate targetting of civilians not participating in combat is evil.

That wasn't the question you asked.

And at no point did Western goverments consider him a freedom fighter.
Nor are they shocked at his actions.
He's been anti-west since at least 1991.
Surely you knew that?

You have google though right?
I'm pretty sure that it's available in your neck of the woods, and not just Leighton Buzzard.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Xaccers, I'm a bit s**t with this quote / snip malarkey - sorry.

With all due respect I'm not really prepared to discuss this matter with you any further for several reasons.

1. I don't take kindly to beng accused of supporting / condoning terrorism.

2. Charles Clarke has, by his own admission, today introduced a law which would effectively endorse the (re)jailing of Nelson Mandela - currently acknowledged as one of the world's greatest statesmen (but still a convicted terrorist).

3. The US, through their Whitehouse spokesman Bryan Whitman, have today conceded that the exercising of Freedom of Speech and the publication of these images "will further inflame and cause unnecessary violence in the world".

I really don't see how much more clarity could be required in respect of my post last night.

It's not me you're arguing with now but the British Government's legisliature and the Whitehouse's senior spokesman.

I'm glad that we agree wholeheartedly on the matter of "Any deliberate targetting of civilians not participating in combat is evil". But it MUST work both ways - whether you see the perpetrator as a soldier or a terrorist.

That aside, thanks for your sympathy on another thread regarding our burglary last week. A pretty testing time. You'll be glad to hear I've ordered up a new custom Yale wireless system and arranged for a mate to fit twin FAMAS 5.56's (see, I do know a bit) to prevent any reoccurance.

Best

Paul

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Mandela served his time for his crimes.
As such any further incarceration would not be endorsed, unless he was convicted of further crimes committed since his release.

In reference to Australian TV showing images of the abuse of Iraqi's by US soldiers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4718328.stm) and not in reference to the cartoons or anything else which came out of Denmark.


The problem is it doesn't work both ways.
When a soldier is found to be deliberately targetting civilians not participating in combat, he is punished by his peers.
When a terrorist does it, he is revered by his peers.

I'd go for a couple of G36's; firstly they aren't french ( ;) ), and secondly they're a lot more reliable :D

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Save your money on the alarm system ;)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

It gets worse...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4728616.stm

When will these bloody lunatics let it go?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

haven't you figured it out yet,blaming it on the cartoons is just a good excuse to have a good riot.
i bet most of these rioters couldn't even tell you what the cartoons were.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

reminds me (don't know why) of the line in ID last night when they turn up for some aggro at a football match. The undercover copper says, after the riot police turn up and stop it all kicking off "Shame that. I was looking forward to a good ruck"

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Doesn't take long for factions to start killing each other in Nigeria.It's just that the world's media can connect it this time to world events.There have been lots of tribal and religious killings in recent years in Nigeria,but as they aren't reallly interesting or anything to do with world events(well in the eyes of the world's media) they have not been widely reported in developed countries. :(

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

True, however...

Also, looks like Herbert Clinker is right, unfortunately...

How many people take machetes, iron rods & petrol to a peaceful protest? Also, the tyre/petrol weapon sticks in my mind as a cold blooded intent to kill regardless of the action at the protest, rather than a self-defence motive or frenzied, heat-of-the-moment attack.

Unfortunately it doesn't estimate what percentage of people carried weapons to the protest.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:03 ----------

The day is coming when British Muslims form a state within a state
imo, the UK is sleepwalking into disaster....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Meanwhile, with the benefit of hindsight, http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060219/...ons_apology_dc

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I wonder what else hindsight will reveal in the next few decades :rolleyes:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

At least Saudi are trying to qwell the row... I don't think Arab/Muslim countries are doing enough to show that the paper has apologised,

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If I'm truly honest I'm saddened as to the demands made of this country by people immigrating here and by people who don't live here but believe they should have a say in how this country is run. I strongly believe that if you choose (for whatever reason) to leave your own country to live in another then it is up to YOU to accept, live by and respect the laws, opinions and customs of the country you are moving to.
Yes we should all be tolerant of each others views but if I were to move to a muslim country I would expect to have to change how I lived and I would expect to have to abide by the rules of that country. If I couldn't live by those rules/customs I would move back home or I would look to live elsewhere, I wouldn't demand that everyone else change to suit me :(

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

:clap: Well put.
The reason that I'm upset by this all is that my country has been taken over first by force and then by stealth, by people who will use all means at their disposal to force the indigenous population to bow to their will. I wouldn't want to see anything like that happen here.....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I agree with everything you say there, unfortunately a common sense attitude like that gets the do-gooder brigade calling you and me a racist for those views.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Well Said.

---------- Post added at 19:43 ---------- Previous post was at 19:43 ----------

Unfortunately true.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I personally don't consider those views racist. I agree. The only time I disgree with not adapting the public's views is when those views include actual racist views (such as "send 'em all back").

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I agree with you there Paul. Its about time the muslim leaders around the world start taking action to stop all these killing etc and start promoting calm and peace. I have read the article about the Danish newspaper editor apologizing about the cartoons, and its time this all stopped. Maybe its time for a protest to demand world leaders around the world start promoting peace and calm, especially around the muslim nations.

That from a British Muslim and proud of it too :)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

"send em all back" I would agree with someone if they said send all the protesters back, if you read the protesters billboards they were not simply saying ban the cartoons they were promoting murders terrorism and putting down our way of life. So I say if they dont like it they free to go back to the middle east.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

People posting here seem to have overlooked a fundamental element of the equation.

In all probability many of the protesters seen in London last week are as British as Yorkshire pudding - born and reared in Britain. As far as I know, and I'm not condoning it (before anyone gets their Oswald Mosley / Enoch Powell hats on), up until last week waving a placard promoting or glorifying terrorism wasn't a criminal offence under British law.

Can someone explain to me how you tell someone born in Britain to go back to somewhere they may never have been? Is it as simple as determining by the colour of their skin, or the religion that they practice that they don't quite fit in to "our way of life"? Is it as simple as asserting, simply because they elect to advocate and practice a freedom of speech which espouses something contrary to our collective moral beliefs, that they should be "sent home"?

Comments such as "Send em all back" and "if they dont like it they are free to go back to the middle east" are as racist, shameful and bigotted as the "No blacks, no dogs, no Irish" signs which adorned the windows of many thousands of B&B's throughout Britain in the 70's - 80's and anyone who would suggest otherwise is deluding themselves.

The bottom line, as far as the protesters are concerned, is you either respect their right to freedom of speech or you don't. You either respect them as individuals or you consider them all to be terrorists and you either acknowledge their right to be British or you deny it. A denial of their legitimate right to freedom of speech or their British nationality (where applicable) and the fundamental human right to the freedom of religious expression and practice - irresepective of their place of birth, colour of skin or religious denomination - is a racist action.

You are perfectly entitled to disagree with / dispute their point of view. Their nationality, however, is not up for debate. It is defined by their passport / place of birth and an elected desire on their part to be declared a citizen of whatever country they wish - with the provision that they meet the qualifying criteria and are deemed to have done so by the appropriate legislative authority.

If you're a racist come out and say it. If you're a xenophobe don't be afraid to say it but, for goodness sake, don't try to hide behind some sort of moral / sociopolitical children's playground argument that deludes you into thinking that you've adopted a moral high ground that puts you beyond others seeing you for what you actually are.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Not true... It comes under the banner of incitement to [religious] hatred/violence, which is why people wree complaning that cops had the tools but didn't use them. Nick Griffin had already been caught under it in the late 90s. It was the reason that drug dealer who dressed up as a suicide bomber was arrested.

What the MPs were arguing about was to make the order from a Public Order offence (relatively mild) to an offence under the Terrorism Act (which is serious and gives the government/police much more power to process, than a PO offence).

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I'm sorry, but it is true and is exactly what I said "...up until last week waving a placard promoting or glorifying terrorism wasn't a criminal offence under British law".

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Now that's one of the best posts Ive seen on this thread. I couldnt have said it better myself.

---------- Post added at 09:33 ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 ----------

Just looking back at some posts previously about how this country is being changed to accomadate muslims (there was a mention of sharia compliant mortgages/halal food shops/ halal food in schools etc etc). I'd just like to say that where you get a large population of any particular religion, businesses will do their best to cater for them because it makes them money.

For example as well as the independant muslim run halaal butchers you get in Streatham, the Safeways/Morrisons now isnt it, here also sells halaal meat. This wasnt down to a muslim orhganised petition but more to do so with the fact that the business is making the most of a situation for their own good.

Also HSBC for example are delivering shariah compliant mortgages (which involves them being free from interest/but yuou still pay in another manner) because it sees a way of making money from the thousands of muslims in the UK applying for a mortgage.

We have to remember that a lot of this is not provided free to muslims, or done so because muslims have gone on the march expecting it. It is done by non - muslim organisations looking to make money from muslims. Nothing wrong in that, but lets paint a balanced picture over some things huh.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

*sigh* Here I go again. I was born here, but I don't feel British. imo, the same can be said for many of the protestors. They are British in passport alone. Their true home is wherever they want to make Britain into a copy of. It is where their hearts are.......
This country has given them a home and they should stop trying to change it to suite them better.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

What I want to know is why? What is so wonderful about sharia law that makes it so attractive?

Or is it simply that it is a symbol of Islamic domination?

I notice that Sacranie doesn't criticise this failure to integrate at all, only going so far as to point out how it reflects Muslim's opposition to the war on terror. How?
And that's all the fault of 'white Britons', is it?
Can someone tell me what that was in aid of? How much longer is this going to go on? Are we to have protest marches every Sunday for the next 10 years over this?

Elsewhere in that article it states:
Which one? Or is that the bounty on each of the 12 (?) cartoonists involved? Or for all of them?

Does this mean that this 'cleric' believe it is all the work of one person? If that is the case, then he's very ignorant. Mind you - publicly inciting to murder is a pretty ignorant act.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

On that subject what are they marching about? Have the cartoon been published in the UK?

And why the burning of American flags in some of the demonstrations abroad? As far as I'm aware they haven't been published in any US newpapers or magazines either.

Have I missed something or is it just a convenient excuse to complain about the UK and US?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

That seems to be the way - any excuse to complain about every aspect of UK/US policy or their societies.

For example. this from the BBC:
Note, they've managed to get the Hindus into protest mode as well.

For f*** sake - is there anything we do that isn't an insult?

While the 'West' is accused of having an anit-Muslim agenda (note, they rarely offer any hard evidence of it) it is quite plain and visible that Muslims have an anti-West agenda.

---------- Post added at 10:11 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

Example:
But read on...
Ah - so that's why sharia law is so attractive.

It's like The Crucible... (Which was all about: http://www.salemweb.com/memorial/ )

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Works both ways. People are allowed to criticise Islam too.

True, but without excusing it, it can be understood. Change scares people. It doesn't matter what's changing, people like consistency, routine. Some of the older generations saw the colour of Britain change bit by bit. Now they are starting to accept that we have the issue of Sharia law coming in. It doesn't matter how or why its coming in, but people hear the word Sharia and all they can think about is:

1. Women being stoned for adultery.
2. Burqas.
3. All the hallmarks of the Taliban like music and sport being banned.
4. The right to beat women.
5. Apostasy, heresy & critism or Islam being capital offences.

No wonder people are nervous. They see today Sharia law is being practised (in whatever form or reason). They hear the (sometimes violent) support for Sharia law, and no wonder they are scared s***less.

Its up to moderate, decent Muslims to counter the more vocal, extremist voice, which is currently fuelling public perception and opinion. Its not right, but at the end of the day, we all have to live together in peace.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I am not xenophobic (far from it, I have friends from many cultures, including muslims), but I would like to know why the muslims are protesting in countries that have not published the cartoons. Regarding the countries that have published the cartoons, well, as I have stated, I think the Muslims have shot themselves in the foot. Had they just had a little protest (or even ignored the cartoons) in Denmark, the cartoons would have been forgotton, probably within a few hours.

Regarding the conduct of some of the people on the protests. In general, it seemed peaceful, so I have no real problem with them. What I do have a problem with is those who hold the "Death to Infidels" banners, and that tw*t who dressed up as a suicide bomber. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that one of my friends was in the building next door to the bus that exploded in Tavistock Sq, (she spent her day helping the wounded where possible, giving them cups of tea, allowing them to use her phone and email to contact relatives etc), and as a result is scared of buses.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Quite right! Now tell that to the ones waving the posters......

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Strip them of their citizenship, for a set period of time, which would deny them access to public funds.
Hundreds of thousands of people in the UK are in that situation already.
Many of the "extremist" groups deliberately avoid paying tax as a way of attacking Britain, and live off as many benifits as they can.
Without those benifits, they would have to work for a living and pay tax.
A rather tasty irony too.

I dissagree.
I grew up in a country with sharia law.
I knew one man with only one hand, and saw a few others around the city.
I knew that for any christians, the only place to find a chruch was in one of the embassies, as the building of churches is prohibited.
There were areas I could not go to because I am not muslim.
I was in a foreign nation, and therefore abided by their rules.
For someone to be able to come over here, be given asylum and then call for our goverment not to be voted out, but beheadded is not acceptable.
Just as if on a stormy night you let me into your home, and I started calling for you to be killed because of the way you ran your home, is unacceptable.
If I came in and did that, kicked over your coffee table, spilt red wine on your sofa and carpet, would you throw me out, or hand me a bag of dog poo to wipe on your walls?

It most certainly is not, unless you're saying that to be a muslim you must wave plackards around, insulting the country you live in, calling for it's goverment to be murdered, avoid work as not to pay taxes and live on benifits in an attempt to drag the country down?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

#

So whats the excuse for non muslim benefit cheats doing the same? Are they not attacking Britain too, maybe we should group them into the same people as above.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

They shouldn't be cheating the system either......
Now, what about the rest of xaccers post--any comments?

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

Hmm......thats called racism over here isn't it? But anyway, how they run their country is up to them, when in Rome and all that.....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Bone idleness?

If someone attacks this nation then should they go unpunished?
What does Sharia law say about treason?
How about financial theft?

Removing someone's access to public funds when they've been deliberately avoiding work and paying taxes (such as refusing to buy car insurance because of the tax on it) is quite fitting.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

That probably doesn't apply to our laws because we are kaffirs (which, where I come from is a very insulting term)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I've made my feelings on living in Britain pretty clear before. Apart from the weather I love it. As a muslim I can attend one of many local mosques, I can go for Friday prayers, there is an economy where I can buy halaal meat, I can eat out (even 3 of my local Nandos sell halaal chicken). There are even state funded muslim schools where as well as studying the national curriculum, pupils can study about Islam too. I could be living in a different non muslim country where non of this would be possible.

I, and ALL the muslims I know, do not feel that we need to convert Britain to Islam, or Islamacise any other part of the western non muslim world to live as first, a decent human being (which is what my religion teaches me) and subsequently as a good muslim. Additionally I dont see why Shariah law should be implemented in a non muslim country.

I don't have to participate in any of the non muslim things which I feel are negative to me practising my religion, after all we have freedom of choice.

As far as Xaccers points, I have not lived in a country where Shariah law is implemented. The point I will make is that people always pick up on what they see as the negative/barbaric points of shariah law and hence get scared of it or demonise it. There are other aspects of Shariah law which might be seen as favourable to this very same group. I doubt if anyone likes ALL the law in the UK.

A lot of muslim countries who adopt some form of Shariah law have bended rules to suit westerners and non muslims. For example you can drink in certain areas in Saudi, and there are churches in Pakistan. I am sure there are other examples too but the point Im trying to make is that we are always comparing extremes.

Throughout this thread there is an opinion that the actions of those placard carrying idiots represtents the majority of Islam in the UK, and now we hear of how all muslims want to Islamacise Britain. Well as a muslim I don't buy it. No headline on the front page of the Sun, or the spouting of a**holes such as Abu Hamza or some other Al Majroun cronies will convince me that this is the case, because I know too many muslims who think otherwise.

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:55 ----------

The term Kaffir is an arabic term meaning non believer.

Anyway what you say as this 'doesnt apply to our law', I know many muslims who use that argument. That is, we don't live in a muslim country and therefore we can do what we want. However the Koran and teachings of the Prophet make it clear that you have to obey/respect the law of the country you live in. Those engaging in such activities in my opinion are just hypocrites.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

It may not be something that you and the majority of UK muslims are working towards, but just as many laws and other changes to the way this country works are not put to a public vote, it will possibly be implemented without your consent. The silent majority (of muslims) are not heard because they don't speak out.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Can you explain how this would be done then. And what is it that you think going to be implemented? I for one dont see a muslim leadership ever coming into the Uk, so are you saying this will be an underground movement? Am I going to wake up one day and ever woman in Britain will be forced to wear a Burkha (and FYI this is not a requirement of Sharia Law). I am a bit confused as to what you're afraid of, or concerned about?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

The chap who did the study was a muslim himself, and it isn't the majority of muslims who want sharia law but a significant minority (it seems)
....and it was for the telegraph, not the sun.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I think the point was that it is suggested that the benefit cheating mentioned is specifically orchestrated as an 'attack'.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Yeah I know the survey was in the telegraph. Its the one conducted after the march on Saturday, right? And 400 muslims gave their views? One of the commentators in the news this morning was saying that the muslims questioned were saying they wanted some aspects of Shariah law. Anyway thats beside the point. The point is that 400 people dont represent the views of everyone, and if we take the sample population for the survey, there mindset might already be influenced by the fact they were already on a demo criticing the west. The Sun did have an editorial and a lot of column space to this as well.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

There are already a number of Asian / Muslim politicians in local and central government.

As more immigrants enter the country there are more people who will vote for an asian / muslim representative in government, more islamic friendly laws are pushed through. Even white britons may wish to attract the muslim vote to stay in post and push for muslim friendly laws ... so it goes on. :disturbd:

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I look forward to having the positive aspects of sharia law explained.

---------- Post added at 12:25 ---------- Previous post was at 12:22 ----------

And the term 'kaffer' in south Africa is considered a very insulting swear word. (As it is in Dutch.)

Hence, despite it's 'innocent' Arabic origin, whenever I read it in Muslim/Islamic text, I can't help but feel insulted.

However, I won't be organising a protest rally...

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I'm confused, where did it say that the sample population was taken from the people on the march? I thought it was a random sample of Muslims....

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 ----------

Exactly! Whenever I hear it used to describe me I am incredibly insulted (it's such a bad word that it's use was banned in apartheid era south africa!)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Are you saying that all immigrants coming into the UK will be muslim? And that such a large number will come in to over take the 'non muslim' vote. Im just simplifying this into a non muslim vs muslim vote to make the discussion easier to follow.

As far as Im aware Leicester is one of the only cities in the UK where whats classed as ethnic has overtaken the English population. And this included 'etnicc' muslims as well as non muslims. I think their are more Hindus in Leicester than muslims.

CAn you elaborate on the muslim laws that you are worried about? To be honest I feel too many people are influenced by a lot of the tabloid scaremongering, without thinking about the feasibility of such a siutuation actually happening.

---------- Post added at 12:32 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

I thought the survey was conducted after the march? MAybe Im wrong. Still I think we agree that the small number can not represent the views of a majority of muslims in the UK

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

How do you know that the views of these 400 are not representative? Are your assertions based on those of you and 399 other like-minded individuals?

The fact is, a large number of the people on that protest were in favour of the idea of sharia law - you say that's not the view of the majority of Muslims.

That must mean that the protest was by the 'minority' - i.e. the ones blamed for all the misunderstanding we have about Muslims.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Adultary: only committed if there's a witness or confession. Hence why a woman can be stoned to death while man gets off scot free (if she confesses and he doesn't)
Theft: Removal of hand. Certainly no tabloid scaremongering there, I've seen it.
Murder: Removal of head. Again, no tabloid scaremongering there either, I've seen the block.

Where's OB with her quotes stating that if a woman leaves the protection of a man, he should beat her to remind her he's there for her own protection etc?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I don't know either but I assume that if it was just the marchers polled, they would have said soAgreed, they need a larger survey....

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Why the hell not !!!??? :erm:

If you're insulted then I'm insulted .. hell we're ALL insulted !!!!! ;)

:D

"Briton's insult at being termed 'Kaffir'. Calls for new laws protecting British atheists" :D

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Yes. He didn't answer, with any degree of factuality or relevance, a single solitary point I raised.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Not just atheists - all non-muslims...

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Then pull him up on it! :D

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

OK, the Telegraph article says:
That simply says that the ICM poll results were published in the Sunday Telegraph - which clearly means the poll was done before the protest.
So it wasn't 400 either, AND a similar proportion still think Hamza got a rough deal.

BTW - Full results of the poll available from the ICM website.
There are other archived polls with some interesting findings, e.g. this one (shortly after 7/7.)

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

No, that's not my intention.

What I was hoping for was an honest dialogue about how we have arrived at this juncture and how and what steps can be taken to redress these preconceptions.

Sorry Xaccers.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

If someone has entered this country with the purpose to attack it either physically or financially, and rally others to do the same, then surely they should be ejected from the country.

Even though I grew up in a country with sharia laws, which restricted worship by other faiths, and access of infidels, I certainly would object to anyone trying to change that without going through peaceful processes.

If someone was born here and decides to attack the nation through finacial means, should they be allowed to do so?
I don't believe they should.
In such a case, rather than a custodial sentance which costs the nation more, better to remove their citizenship so that they have to contribute.

No one here is saying "muslims should go back where they came from"
Many are however saying "people who attack this nation should not live here" and by attack they do not mean grumbling about the goverment, but actual action being taken such as rallying people to commit terrorist acts, deliberately avoiding paying tax and living off benifits for political reasons.

Like I said, if you gave me sanctuary in your home, and I started attacking it, would you throw me out or pass me dog poo to smear on your walls?

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Seems the results from their random sample should be pretty close to accurate...

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Doesn't that just mean the accuracy of the 40% result out of the 500 questioned?
IE that its pretty accurate that 40% of those questioned do indeed want sharia law (rather than 80% wanting it but 40% lying to look good), but that's not the same as 40% of all muslims in the nation.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I think Kaffir actually refers to idol worshippers/people who dont follow a religion. A Christian or a Jew would not be refered to as a Kaffir (pronounced carfeer)

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:10 ----------

So the sample population is 500?

So are we saying that half of the 500 want Shariah law and dont feel that Abu Hamza was rightly sentenced?

Even if all 500 agreed with that , then to say that this is a representation of what the majority of muslims ion the UK feel is just plain stupid.

On a further note if you read page 8 of todays Sun, as a few million people in the UK will do so, under a headline of "Beware the rise of muslim hardliners" it says that 4 out of 10 British muslims now favour strict Sharia Law for their communities. Later on it says "Imams in 200 UK mosques hark back to Islams &th century glory days when small armies of determined men swept outr of arabia conquering Spain and threatening Europe..."

Now I go to 4 mosques regualry in South London, and never have I heard that, and more importantly theres no mention of survey numbers, implying that 400,000 UK muslims (approx) feel that Shariah law should be in the UK. Now that to me, just adds fuel to a Lets Be Scared of Islam/Muslims want to take over the UK attitude taht I see a lot of people trying to get at. Doesnt do much for muslim/non muslim relations does it

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

No, because they are the 'people of the book', and as such should be respected, not bombed into submission.

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:10 ----------

As I read it, a 40% result has a 95% confidence to within 4.3%.

Since a poll is supposed to be a measure of the section of the population targetted (in this case Muslims) this result is apparently quite indicative of the whole Muslim population of the UK.

So no, it is not the majority of UK Muslims who want sharia law, but apparently a large percentage of them would. And I would consider 40% a pretty significant proportion. (Since the UK has an electoral system where 40% of the population can actually elect a government...)
As you point out, that was in the Sun...

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Whatever the sample and percentages, IMO it is clear a significant proportion of UK muslims would like to see islamic law (whether sharia or whatever) introduced in UK as the lead if not sole religion. Also it is clear that this proportion is likely to be be the most fundamental, hardline, fanatical and vociferous and as such more likely to be heard than the moderate majority.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

To be fair though, there is a big difference between want and what they'll fight for. If they would like Shariah law, fair enough. If they are willing to fight to get Shariah law, then we have a big problem.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Provided the sample surveyed was sufficiently large, and a true cross-section of the group being questioned, then it is statistically acceptable to draw conclusions from the results obtained.

I am not a statistician, but ICM is a respected polling organisation and I have no reason to doubt their findings. Unless it turns out that their sample was drawn from outside Finsbury Park mosque on a Friday afternoon of course.

---------- Post added at 13:51 ---------- Previous post was at 13:50 ----------

Indeed. I want the whole world to acknowledge Jesus as their Lord and saviour. I'm not about to tool up and force anyone to believe it though.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

I agree with what Xaccers says extradite them, may sound mean but end of the day the country has laws and anyone living here I would expect to be respectful of its traditions and values. I don't mark all muslims with the same brush, the ones who disagree with the comments in the protests and are peaceful I am happy for them to live here.

Re: Muslims to march in London
 

Extradite them to where? A lot of the hotheads who are going on these marches were born here and are as British as you or I.