Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I guess all we can hope is that in time, with different personalities involved, a peace settlement will eventually happen. That could of course be outside all our lifetimes.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Not when the terms of one side is complete destruction of the other.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Terms and people change over time. As I said, a settlement is unlikely in our lifetime.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Absolutely, it hasn’t changed in the last 75 years it won’t change in the next.

It may change if the Palestinians rise up and reject Hamas, and drive them out. Apparently there’s at least 1.25 million innocent Palestinian adults in Gaza, their current predicament is a direct result of Hamas’ actions. They should get rid of Hamas and support someone that wants to coexist.

Without Hamas there’s a chance for peace. With Hamas only more of this.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

With the current Israeli government there is only more of this. Should they also rise up?

The latest Guardian update has this

583 children.

The expectation that these families should do anything other than blame Israel is both fanciful and extremely naive. In no way, shape or form can the war crimes of the Israeli state be described as proportionate and we've only just begun.

Dare I ask how many more need to die before you think it's enough? Or is it just a blank cheque?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Watching the news I learnt that there hasn’t been an election since 2007 meaning no one under the age of 35 has ever voted for Hamas.

Whilst I agree with what you say regarding their removal. How does an impoverished population rise up and overthrow a heavily armed, state backed bunch of murdering dicks ?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

None of the Palestinians that have died or been injured, since Saturday, would be so if not because of Hamas’ actions on that day.

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:19 ----------

There can’t be but a few hundred Hamas.

But, I don’t know.

All I know is there is no future for Palestinians in Gaza or anywhere else, with Hamas in charge.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Agree strongly in your last point.

A quick google says anywhere between 7k & 30k even taking taking the low figure it’s a not insignificant amount.

Hamas aren’t thick they know they stand no chance in an open conflict with the IDF. So they go into hiding and then what ? Israel can occupy Gaza but at some point they’ll have to withdraw and then…..

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It can't be solved militarily.

A change of regime in Iran could lead to funding for Hamas being severely reduced but how likely is that?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

About as unlikely as it gets. You would also need to see a change from the right wing Israeli government.

Meanwhile

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67102956

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

More bad luck as leaflets were dropped ordering 1.1 million Palestinians to leave their homes for their safety only for the convoys to be attacked and over 70 people killed, apparently 13 hostages have also been killed by the indiscriminate bombings

---------- Post added at 03:10 ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 ----------

That used to be Fatahs ideology too

Might help if we went after the Hamas leadership, they're not slumming it in the ghetto, they're living like kings in Doha, go after them and their money, start empowering Fatah to oppose them and get a proper succession plan in place for when Abbas passes on, the problem is we don't have the will to try, we've bought into the rhetoric hook line and sinker with this nonsense about things being to intransigent, it's almost like neither side want it to succeed and have suckered the world into believing it's true

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Few hundred Hamas yet over 500 children killed is a proportionate response?

You are being duped into blaming the victims by association here.

There’s no peaceful future for Israel when it indiscriminately kills women and children in bombing raids. Go onto the Israeli air force Twitter feed and look through the photos of residential areas decimated and tell me they look like proportionate actions.

After all there are “but a few hundred” Hamas. With thousands upon thousands of bombs dropped surely they’ve got them all by now.

Or, and hear me out in this one, are Israel not just targeting Hamas?

The latest numbers in the Guardian update.

I ask once again when do you say enough? What’s the tipping point where it can no longer be blamed on Hamas? 10,000? 100,000? A million?

If the answer is never enough then there’s no point going round and round in the coming days as Israel escalate the conflict further. Our positions are clear enough from the many posts thus far.

There’s a pretty horrific video on Twitter, and also one before showing mainly women and children sitting on a long trailer taken minutes before. Would be interesting for the Israel apologists to have a look and tell us how in their view it was a legitimate target and what (if any) steps they believe Israel took to minimise civilian casualties.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I’m not blaming the victims, I’m blaming Hamas.

And so should the Palestinians.

I’ll tell you once again, not one Palestinian would be dead this week by the IDF if not for the actions of Hamas

I wouldn’t support an organisation that provoked a conflict they knew they couldn’t win, they knew that their actions would result in more of their own innocent population being killed than they could kill Israelis.

Probably correct.

I’ve already said on here, that I believe that Israel should stop their counter offensive.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Not strictly true. Palestinians and Israelis are killed & injured on an ongoing basis:

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2023/10/2.jpg

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

l thought this was a good listen last night by Patrick Kielty whose Dad John was shot dead by the UFF during The Troubles in N Ireland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpYr...heLateLateShow

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

OK Mr P. Dantic. It was making a point about current events, but if you want me to be pedantic. I said “this week”.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Pro Palestine != Pro Hamas

Taking a horrific situation and trying to use it to promote your own agenda. That’s a new low..

What happened to you ???

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I actually find it comforting that so many of my fellow citizens are out despite the threats of our own authoritarian Government around the flying of the Palestinian flag.

While our politicians and political class are happy to dine at the table of American imperialism it's reassuring that people are looking with their own eyes and making assessments themselves.

If you stood up and condemned Russian activity in Ukraine but are silent over atrocities by the Apartheid state in Gaza then you are nothing but a shill. That applies to UK politicians and EU ones like Ursula von der Leyen. The pretence of an 'international rules based order' is dead. I always expected it to go but I didn't think it'd have been an attack on Israel that would finish it off.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

If you had unequivocally condemned Hamas’ barbarism when it occurred last week instead of indulging in Corbynisms, you might have a shred of the moral authority necessary to say any of the above and to sound convincing. But you didn’t, and you don’t. For you to stand up now and accuse anyone of shilling for anything is comedy of the highest order.

Personally I had no reservations about condemning Hamas’ terrorist outrages in southern Israel last week on their own terms; they were barbaric, and I’d say sub-human but for the fact that it is evident their behaviour is entirely human. It is what humans do when they are inculcated with an ideology that dehumanises those who are ‘other’, which is exactly what Hamas’ extremist ideology does.

And I have no reservations about condemning the cutting off food and fuel to an entire population (given the nature of the Hamas threat there is no military utility in doing so - it is collective punishment and illegal under international law) and the bombing of convoys of fleeing civilians even if Hamas terrorists are hiding in those convoys.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

If you stood up and condemned Israeli activity in Palestine but are silent over atrocities by the Russian state in Ukraine then you are nothing but a shill, with over six hundred children killed, thousands of children kidnapped, and tens of thousands of targeted civilian casualties and deaths in the last eighteen months.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

To add some balance this is just one way that Israel has acted illegally under international law. But this and other acts are tolerated by the international community because <insert reason here>

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I think you'll find I did condemn it Chris - merely not using the spineless rhetoric that we are required to accompany it 'Israel has a right to defend herself' that is universally used to censor any debate that attributes the cause of the ongoing conflict to the actions of both sides now, both sides in the past and ultimately both sides in the future.

The requirement frames the debate immediately, and there was enough of that going on from the very first post.

---------- Post added at 14:59 ---------- Previous post was at 14:46 ----------

Hang on have the Israelis killed more children in seven days than Russia have in eighteen months? Dear god. By their own admission they've only just gotten started.

I've definitely condemned Russian activity and underlined the need for a peaceful solution so no particular concern on this front. I'm equally not a politician acting as some kind of moral arbiter of which military causes are just and which are not.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I don't agree with all of your points Seph but on this one I will.

There will certainly be more people motivated and willing to carry out terror attacks in Europe and the UK on boats in the near future so long as the UK, the EU and the United States are complicit in Israeli war crimes.

It doesn't really matter from their perspective where you are on the scale between providing political cover or direct military assistance.

No I don't agree that what you are watching on television is pro-Hamas, unless you are watching channels significantly different from those on mine.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Your prevarications and talking around the points raised remind me of some friends of mine who were in the CPGB in the mid-80s - you have been vehement in this thread about why people should be condemning (quite rightly) the injuring and killing of innocent children, but you haven’t said a word in the Ukraine thread about the same actions carried out by the Russians, and your definition of a "peaceful" solution in Ukraine is letting the Russians keep all the territory they’ve invaded in this conflict and in 2014, allowing them to rebuild their military capabilities and do the same thing again.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

My point in the other thread is that the “fight for every inch” position is not sustainable - something that it patently is not and more so now given one of America’s genuine allies will be dipping the same stockpiles (of weapons and money) that Zelensky needs. I’m more than happy to discuss that on that thread.

Two nation states at war is a palpably different scenario from what we see today. Regardless, I’ve been clear and consistent about civilian deaths and war crimes in all conflicts as unwelcome although arguably inevitable.

However what Israel are doing so brazenly is on a scale beyond what we have seen elsewhere.

Yet we are all dutifully expected to bow down and reiterate her right to defend herself every time the conflict is mentioned, when legitimate defence probably expired on Monday or Tuesday. Something that could reasonably be anticipated by anyone who parroted it last weekend and seen now by anyone who still parrots it.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Don't want to sound like some weird conspiracy theorist and perhaps the covid has clouded my judgement but this all seems very convenient for vlad the insaner, Israel will now stop their aid to Ukraine, dip into those already depleted US weapons stockpiles and divert attention away from Ukraine, seems so beneficial for him it's hard to see how he's not involved somewhere?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

So you think it was OK for Hamas to go on the rampage and kill innocent civilians in the most barbaric way, including chopping the heads off children?

The Israeli attack on Gaza is in pursuit of protecting the security of Israel and is in self defence. The families in Gaza need to suck on that.

Israel has been continually provoked by Hamas. They cannot be allowed to get away with this forever, and at last they are getting their comeuppance.

---------- Post added at 20:24 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

Er - by engaging in peace talks, which Hamas resolutely try to scupper every time they start.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Obviously debate is welcome.

But you’re a bit late to the party OB.

Myself and JFman are at odds on this issue, but if you had read through the thread ( which you obviously haven’t) he’s more than already answered his position on all those points.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I don't think the population itself can engage in peace talks. Only the leaders of the territory, Hamas, can do that.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

And they don't live there

Re: Hamas and Israel
 

Hamas deserve everything they get.

Unfortunately, the way Israel are going about it atm, it seems innocent people are also getting killed.

There is a large difference between invading and deliberately killing families & children face to face v killing them [unintentionally ?] via poorly targeted bombing of supposedly military targets. However, at the end of they day, the result is the same, they are dead.

Atm, I'm giving them the benefit of believing its not intentional, and that they are not targetting civilians, but you can only believe in so many mistakes before you start to wonder.

Re: Hamas and Israel
 

That's what will end all this in the end I suspect, when American politicians and public stop giving them the benefit of the doubt and tell them to stop

Absolutely horrible whats going on :(

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Nothing pedantic here. Facts are that Palestinians get killed & injured on an ongoing basis. Just setting some context. They are not getting killed exclusively due to the current events.

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

Are there really people who write this sort of rubbish? Nearly 50% of Gazans are children. Here is one of them (from 2021):

"It's not fair" - A 10-year-old Palestinian girl breaks down while talking to MEE

These children are not Hamas but in a few years time, they will be thanks to actions taken at the moment.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Your callous disregard for human life is despicable, OB.

I'm not entertaining the rest of your post or any other on this subject.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 ----------

There is an emerging thought online that the current delay - attributed to the weather (which is atrocious) officially I think - is America blinking given the public (everywhere) and diplomatic (outside of Europe) reaction around the world this weekend.

It won't change Israel's strategy but allows more time for evacuation and humanitarian efforts. There's also suggestions of Egypt erecting a fence 5km from the border presumably to contain refugees which would allow humanitarian efforts to be made safely on Egyptian soil.

This is going to play out atrociously for American foreign policy interests worldwide but they could at least try to mitigate slightly.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

The ones since last weekend, and the sheer size of numbers, are though.

Re: Hamas and Israel
 

Seems Farage is lying again. He claimed:

Met Police had to post this in reply to counter this disinformation:

Re: Hamas and Israel
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I am not disregarding the impact of this on human life, jfman. My point was that civilians in Gaza voted in Hamas against Fatah in the first place. They knew what they stood for.

I don’t know what you expect Israel to do when they are continually being attacked by Hamas, who hide out amongst the civilian population. One thing is for sure, if it was Britain being attacked in this way, we wouldn’t stand for it either.

You and I would be rightly criticising our government in that situation if they just pussy-footed around in a situation like this.

The Israelies have advised civilians to move to the border area in the south to avoid the retaliation - what else can they be expected to do?

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Not bomb them when they're moving

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Based on demographics - the last election being in 2006 - the proportion of the current population old enough to have voted in that election, turnout and those that voted for other parties some 7% of the current population could have voted for Hamas.

To punish people who weren’t even born then for a decision made seventeen years ago by other people is preposterous. A preposterous war crime at that.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No, they didn’t…

The last elections that were held in the Palestinian Territories (which includes the Gaza Strip and the West Bank) in 2006, and Hamas won a majority (44%) of the vote, and then a Fatah-Hamas Coalition Government was formed. The following year, Hamas seized power in the Gaza Strip, and there have been no elections there since.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No, that’s the trade mark of Hamas.

---------- Post added at 17:56 ---------- Previous post was at 17:55 ----------

The point is, Hamas is in charge, just as Hitler was in charge of Germany.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The thread title has changed because events have progressed and the discussion no longer relates only to the initial Hamas terrorist attack.

Individual posts can be given a bespoke title, otherwise they may display a title relating to the post they are replying to.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

I realise you've got form for not paying attention in this thread but hamas hasn't told anyone to leave and then bombed them repeatedly

The point changes everytime you get proven wrong, literally what's the point...

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

No .... that was Israel. Pay attention.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67114281

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

44% voting for an ISIS-like terrorist organisation is very telling as to the mindset of Palestinians living in Gaza.

---------- Post added at 19:41 ---------- Previous post was at 19:39 ----------

I agree that Hamas has not told anyone to leave.

Israel says it didn’t bomb people who followed their advice.

Go figure.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Israel advised them to leave. They claim not to have carried out that attack. It would have been stupid of them to do so.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Not telling of the majority 56% is it? (who will kop it anyway).

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Yes, well people say that when they analyse the voting figures at elections. The ruling party rarely gets anywhere near 50% of the vote.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

It was 44% of those voting in the Palestinian Authority (Gaza & the West Bank) - and since 65% of the current Gaza Strip population is under 25, they definitely didn’t vote for them…

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I'm sure analysing voting figures is a consolation to the innocent that are being bombed (with our support).

Wake up OB, you're a nice bloke I know. Murder is murder whoever does it. We should call it out whichever side is responsible. Seems we only do it for one side.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

There is no election,no voting going on in that particular part of the world.It's overreaction by mighty Israel government because they got caught out for once and despicable behaviour by a terrorist group that hides in the midst of innocent citizens that have no choice but to live where they do.

Israel have no moral defence whatsoever in this case.Hamas are Hamas and always beyond the pale in every situation when they assume that everyone in Gaza subscribes to their viewpoint.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Unfortunately Maggy’s mask has slipped, along with many other (excuse the labels) lefty, progressive, etc etc etc.

The Rape of women, and then the parading of their violated dead bodies, the murder of babies, toddlers and children, in front of their families and beheadngs, the total massacres of communities.

According to Maggy, that’s Israel being “caught out”. Disgusting.

This whole tragedy, has really shined some UV, on both sides. But the reactions from the good progressive people have really been quite telling.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Isis didn't exist at the time of the vote, seems odd to blame them for not making the comparison to something that didn't exist

We know you've not been paying attention but it's happened more than once and it's already been verified to have been Israel that did it after ordering people to leave their homes but yeah go figure

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Is it not time to put the Corbyn trope to bed since it’s now confirmed as what some of us always suspected? A lazy trope to slur anyone that doesn’t place Israeli deaths and casualties on a pedestal above those caused by Israel.

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:15 ----------

Which makes Israel’s war crimes even more futile. You can’t defeat an idea or a concept while fuelling the fires of injustice in which it breeds.

---------- Post added at 22:22 ---------- Previous post was at 22:17 ----------

Come on Pierre, your good points well made don’t need you to embellish what others say.

Nobody disputes Israeli intelligence appears to have dropped the ball. They’re usually the best in the business. The words that shortly follow “caught out” are “despicable behaviour by a terrorist group”. That’s exactly what your second paragraph describes. Nobody doubts it and nobody disagrees.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I'd rather split hairs than victim blame

I've been seeing since the day it happened that they were warned repeatedly that Hamas were about to strike, there was no need for their intelligence to find anything out, it was handed to them so you've got to wonder why nothing was done and then my covid riddled mind drifts back to the amount of articles I've read in Jewish newspapers stating Netanyahu bolsters hamas to stop a two state solution which is the thing he actually fears most and whilst I'm not saying he was in on it what I am saying is limited stikes with limited victims may well have suited his agenda just fine

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I condemn both sides and you still make out that I'm partisan?You have no basic understanding of plain English apparently or you are just blinkered in your world view.

---------- Post added at 08:35 ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 ----------

I supported Israel for years BUT in the last 5 years I have been appalled by their behaviour in regards to their neighbours. I have no love for ANY terrorist organisation least of all Hamas.I dislike every single person who would support them. THE ONLY PEOPLE I SUPPORT IN THIS SITUATION are those who are who are just ordinary people who cannot escape the power hungry terrorist groups and the big bad wolf on their border who have persuaded the entire western world that they are the saints in this situation.You be fooled if you want I'm not.

Israel have gotten away with being bullies for too long especially under Benjamin Netanyahu.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I don't think many of you have considered how difficult it is to live in a region where you are surrounded by beligerence and hostility.

Those codemning Israel have plenty to say whenever Israel fights back, but never seem to understand the plain fact that Hamas wants to erase Israel from the map and its people with it. Israel must fight fire with fire if it is to survive, and now Israel is determined to erase Hamas from the map. They have tolerated the constant hostility and rockets from them for long enough.

It is unfortunate that civilians will get in the way, but that's war. It's not pleasant, but that's the way it is, just like with the invasion of Ukraine.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Do you support cutting off the water and electricity supply to Gaza by Israel?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Civilised nation states do not fight war crimes by designing war crimes into their battle plans.

Yes, the Israel-Palestine conflict is difficult. Far more difficult than most people realise, given the tendency to appeal to two fixed points in history (either 1967 or 1948) which tend to simplify the issue beyond reason. But it is troubling that you choose to use a phrase like ‘erase from the map’ - quite aside from the fact that this is the language of genocide (and is what Iran has said it would like to do to Israel), it’s also the language of geography. You say ‘Hamas’, but do you truly hold a correct distinction between ‘Hamas’ and ‘Gaza’ or ‘Palestine’?

The laws of war, as defined in treaties Israel is signatory to, recognise the inevitability of civilian casualties in armed conflict. They also demand these be minimised. It is far from clear that Israel is doing anything to minimise civilian casualties in Gaza.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It’s part of the act of wearing down the enemy, Andrew. I don’t like war full stop and wish everyone could live in peace, but we are all having to live in the world of reality.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The Guardian will not publish any further cartoons from Steve Bell....

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

No it isn't, Hamas aren't thirsty, they aren't hungry, it's collective punishment that's a war crime and the only people suffering are the poor Palestinians most of whom are children and never voted

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

That’s not my words, Chris! This is just denial on your part.

Hamas will not be content until Israel is no longer occupied by the Israelis, and Israel has every right to defend itself. To do so, it does need to take out Hamas. If it doesn’t the daily rocket attacks continue and both random and planned terror attacks will take place periodically. How do you propose that Israel deal with Hamas when they embed themselves amongst civilians for whatever reason?

There are bound to be inadvertent casualties - collateral damage as they say in the business - and as long as Israel do what they can to protect citizens while attending to the matter at hand, they will not be in breach of international law.

Why do you expect Israel to comply with every nicety of civilisation when the other side plays as dirty as it gets? This is a totally unrealistic expectation.

I do think, however, that there needs to be an investigation as to who killed those people trying to escape the area. That is very concerning, and I hope it wasn’t Israel. Hamas are not averse to blowing up their own people and blaming it on Israel. They have form. And of course, they are telling their own people not to leave, which puts them in harm’s way. That is on Hamas.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

It's called a war crime, Old Boy and I'm disappointed to see you condoning collective punishment. It's also counter-productive as it acts as a recruiter for Hamas and reduces the goodwill for Israel internationally.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Said completely without irony.

You are the man who said people would rise up here if anyone threatened to reopen negotiations on a trade settlement.

How will your average Palestinian teenager, who now hasn’t been at school for over a week, evacuated from their home now destroyed, that now has absolutely nothing thanks to Israel, potentially dead family members, react when an Iranian hands them a few hundred dollars and a gun in ten years time?

None of them will thank the United States for putting two battle groups offshore to permit it, that’s for certain. Nor will they see any comfort in the 2006 Palestinian election results.

There’s a fault in the British mindset where it’s so clouded by its own colonial history it simply cannot comprehend the rights of the colonised to live with freedom, dignity and respect. And their right to fight for that cause.

(Note to avoid any doubt: that final sentence doesn’t condone terror attacks on cilivians as distinct from state apparatus)

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Those words are literally in your post. :confused:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I didn’t suggest it was a conscious thought, only that it was an inability to comprehend events from the other side. It can’t align with experiences it’s own history hasn’t experienced.

It can more readily align with suppressing such opposition. It’s in the national psyche so much it’s referenced in the national anthem.

Even today we have our armed forces minister, just as we had our foreign secretary yesterday, providing political cover for Israel by failing to condemn what we can see with our very eyes.

At best China is establishing moral authority outside Europe and North America and at worst Iran in the Middle East and North Africa. Simply because they can tell the truth.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

My grandad used to say this..........that's why he was sacked by West Yorkshire Fire Service.

---------- Post added at 11:38 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

This will truly save lives.

Re: Hamas terrorists invade Israel, kill civilians and take hostages
 

You can say this. Steve Bell is silenced.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I’m sure Lozza, Nige and the free speech brigade will be out there any minute campaigning for him to be reinstated.

Speaking of which where’s the “all lives matter” lot?

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You have demonstrated this repeatedly in the course of this discussion by pretending the problems began in 1948. I’d be interested to hear your take on how the British Mandate (1920-1948) contributed to the failure of the proposed two-state arrangement from the very outset.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You guys seem to want to deliberately misunderstand everything.

When I said that, I was quoting what Hamas have already claimed. That’s what I meant, and you must know that.

---------- Post added at 12:58 ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 ----------

My God, jfman, you are a sad case. You totally omit to take account of Hamas’s actions, mindset and refusal to engage in peace talks.

The problem is not the West when it comes to trying to resolve these problems and your persistent refusal to acknowledge this is disingenuous to say the least.

Colonialism! What utter rubbish you do talk. Only the extreme left wing nuts are obsessed with colonialism.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

OB I will absolutely not be called a sad case off someone whose most meaningful insight - among the shifting of goalposts - to date is that families in Gaza can “suck on that”.

International law doesn’t only apply in some circumstances it applies in all circumstances. If we can’t stand by that principle why should Putin, Xi, Assad, or today’s Palestinian teenagers offered guns and money off Iran in ten years time?

Biden visiting on Wednesday (I think still a rumour) suggests the penny is finally dropping.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

If everybody is misunderstanding you, I suggest the fault is more likely to be at your end.

The remedy is quite simple. If you are indeed quoting someone, put their actual words in quotation marks and include a link to the source.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

Interesting piece in the FT about the US approach.
https://www.ft.com/content/e0a6da0f-...2-92f2b578febf

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

So when they said after World War 2 “never again” they presumably silently said “to us” afterwards.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

You’re flogging a dead horse here, Seph. He’s not listening and does not seem to give a fig about Israel’s precarious position. They can’t fight Hamas with kid gloves.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Are you saying Putin abides by International law? Have you seen what is happening in Ukraine. The Russians are almost as bad as Hamas in the occupation zones with torture, rape and killing of civillians, destruction of civillian infrastructure, bombing and rocket attacks in civillian areas throughout his SMO.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

The question was “why should”. It purposely made no judgement in either direction. If he does why should he continue to? If he doesn’t on what authority can the US or EU claim he should? You’ll note the rest of the list aren’t exactly stand up proposals either.

There’s a whole other thread for the detail.

Israel committing war crimes with impunity benefits nobody.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Your assumption is that Israel is committing war crimes. They are not. Hamas is.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

OB it’s not my fault you don’t know what a war crime is.

Otherwise you would never have said:

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Might have gone past war crimes according to Israeli historian Raz Segal who is the director of holocaust studies at Stockton University, he calls what's going on as a textbook case of genocide . Also Amnesty International say they have seen proof that it was Israel that attacked the convoy but you know, go figure

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I think what Hamas did 10 days ago, also neatly fits into the definition of Genocide.

We can have a discussion about good genocide , poor oppressed freedom fighters attacking the evil occupiers, and bad genocide, evil occupiers retaliating against good genocide.

And we can discuss all the celebratory gatherings of people in the U.K. cheering on the good genocide, and all the people cheering on the bad genocide……..(there hasn’t been any, but we’ll gloss over that)

Pick the genocide that aligns with your political leanings.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Your assumption is that only one side can commit war crimes. Sadly for the innocent civilians in Israel and Palestine, it appears both can and are.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Sadly the human race are horrid to each other.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Where were you educated? I have to use the dictionary to read your posts. The chrome add on extension dictionary does not recognize some of the words you use, I have to google them

Impressed (respectful post)

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Which just shows there is no such thing as International Law. If there was the perportrators would be held to account. That doesn't just mean condemnation but also action.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Indeed we can do away with the pretence. We just have breaches the US approve of because of their strategic interests, those the US oppose because of their strategic interests and the ones they are indifferent to.

They will whip up billions in aid for the first set while putting in place economic sanctions for the second.

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 20:23 ----------

Not sure if best for this thread or another - two Sweden fans gunned down in Belgium in a terrorist attack.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-67129117

The Euro 2024 qualifier was abandoned at half time with fans being kept inside the stadium for their own safety. The terror alert level in Brussels has been raised to the highest level (4) while the rest of Belgium raised to level 3. The gunman hasn’t yet been found.

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

Re: Hamas Israel War
 

I make no assumption. Israel is doing what it's doing in Gaza in self defence, to protect its security in a hostile region. That is permitted.

I have already said I have concerns about who attacked those trying to flee to the south, as the Israelis told them to do. If that was Israel's doing, they will need to account for that.