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Pierre 28-08-2022 19:32
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36132699)
Depends on who is paying for it.
Gender dysphoria is a mental condition/ illness.

I don’t know that many mental conditions that are supposedly treated by body modification.

Would you treat somebody that has anorexia, by prescribing liposuction?

Body modification should be the very last move not the first, and absolutely not even considered on anyone under 18.

I’m not totally against this procedure being available on the NHS, but it should be as rare as hens teeth.

nffc 28-08-2022 19:36
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36132700)
Exactly, none of this nonsense should be paid for by the NHS.
Well I'd largely be inclined to agree - unless there's actually some serious case of gender dysphoria which has been verified by a doctor, as opposed to that they just want to do it.


One thing which I've never understood is how they seem to be wanting to push up the age of puberty blockers. Ok, so yeah a little kid isn't necessarily (but not always) going to be able to make the decision they want to transition to the other gender, but, surely the whole point of giving someone drugs to stop them going through puberty is to get the body before it changes so there's less to reverse, which has to work better when the process hasn't automatically started, so any limit over like 13 years is presumably not going to be effective anyway. Maybe that's the point, they're too young to make that decision, so no point having them available?

jfman 28-08-2022 19:43
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36132701)
Gender dysphoria is a mental condition/ illness.

I don’t know that many mental conditions that are supposedly treated by body modification.

Would you treat somebody that has anorexia, by prescribing liposuction?

Body modification should be the very last move not the first, and absolutely not even considered on anyone under 18.

I’m not totally against this procedure being available on the NHS, but it should be as rare as hens teeth.
It’s certainly a strange one how it’s become so prevalent over the last 20 or so years, and further bizarre that seemingly interested parties, groups promoting transition and advocacy groups in favour are considered impartial advisers to someone mentally vulnerable and further arbiter of treatments. There’s also - in respect of public funding - a legitimate question of the extent to which some cases could be considered lifestyle choices.

Pierre 28-08-2022 20:23
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36132704)
It’s certainly a strange one how it’s become so prevalent over the last 20 or so years, and further bizarre that seemingly interested parties, groups promoting transition and advocacy groups in favour are considered impartial advisers to someone mentally vulnerable and further arbiter of treatments. There’s also - in respect of public funding - a legitimate question of the extent to which some cases could be considered lifestyle choices.
:tu:

papa smurf 06-09-2022 11:47
Re: Pronouns
 
Teacher who refused to use student's gender-neutral pronouns condemns 'insanity' as he is JAILED in Ireland

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...D-Ireland.html

Russ 06-09-2022 12:23
Re: Pronouns
 
For context - he wasn't jailed for refusing to use pronouns.

He was jailed for defying a court order banning him from returning to the classroom.

Pierre 06-09-2022 13:31
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133380)
For context - he wasn't jailed for refusing to use pronouns.

He was jailed for defying a court order banning him from returning to the classroom.
True.

but a little extreme that a) he was banned in first place and b) the school took out a court order to keep him away.

Russ 06-09-2022 13:41
Re: Pronouns
 
Yep I was just pointing out the click-bait context…

I’m 100% in favour of pronouns being requested and used but forcing people to use them? That’s not for me.

1andrew1 06-09-2022 14:03
Re: Pronouns
 
A tricky one. Once the school has decided its policy, it has to enforce it or the entire's school's discipline is at risk.

Mad Max 06-09-2022 19:53
Re: Pronouns
 
Schools should stick to teaching kids what they really need to learn instead of all these pronouns shite.

Russ 06-09-2022 20:15
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36133447)
Schools should stick to teaching kids what they really need to learn instead of all these pronouns shite.
Teaching kids to be kind to other humans doesn’t sound like shite to me.

Maggy 06-09-2022 20:18
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nffc (Post 36132702)
Well I'd largely be inclined to agree - unless there's actually some serious case of gender dysphoria which has been verified by a doctor, as opposed to that they just want to do it.


One thing which I've never understood is how they seem to be wanting to push up the age of puberty blockers. Ok, so yeah a little kid isn't necessarily (but not always) going to be able to make the decision they want to transition to the other gender, but, surely the whole point of giving someone drugs to stop them going through puberty is to get the body before it changes so there's less to reverse, which has to work better when the process hasn't automatically started, so any limit over like 13 years is presumably not going to be effective anyway. Maybe that's the point, they're too young to make that decision, so no point having them available?
:tu:

---------- Post added at 20:18 ---------- Previous post was at 20:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133451)
Teaching kids to be kind to other humans doesn’t sound like shite to me.
:clap:

Paul 06-09-2022 20:37
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133451)
Teaching kids to be kind to other humans doesn’t sound like shite to me.
Jailing him doesnt seem too kind.

Sephiroth 06-09-2022 22:12
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133451)
Teaching kids to be kind to other humans doesn’t sound like shite to me.
Confusing kids with this pronoun tripe is total shite.

English, Maths and creative stuff is what schools should be teaching.

Russ 07-09-2022 06:57
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36133460)
Jailing him doesnt seem too kind.
Not all that sure anyone has suggested that it is.

Although for the second time, he was jailed for breaching a court order, nothing more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Confusing kids with this pronoun tripe is total shite.
Really? My son is 8 and he gets it.

Seems like kids are lot less ignorant and intolerant than adults tend to be.

peanut 07-09-2022 07:11
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133485)
Really? My son is 8 and he gets it.

Seems like kids are lot less ignorant and intolerant than adults tend to be.
Or it could be down to just intelligence and common sense, who has the most, an 8 year old or an adult?

Russ 07-09-2022 07:22
Re: Pronouns
 
Given the deliberate pettiness shown by many in this thread I’d say it’s more often the kids.

peanut 07-09-2022 07:53
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133488)
Given the deliberate pettiness shown by many in this thread I’d say it’s more often the kids.
Kids at that age will go with whatever they are taught and will conform. That does not make it right. I do find it sad that children that age are taught this kind of thing.

Why does it always come to that if those that don't agree to something that is or feels wrong etc means we're intolerant and ignorant. Not agreeing with it shouldn't mean we're being unkind either. Agreeing to disagree is fine too.

Russ 07-09-2022 08:10
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133491)
Kids at that age will go with whatever they are taught and will conform.
EXACTLY - thank you. If they're taught tolerance, understanding and respect they usually bring that into adulthood

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133491)
That does not make it right.
Teaching them that understanding is not right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133491)
I do find it sad that children that age are taught this kind of thing
.

You get upset that kids are taught not to be discriminating and nasty? I'm certainly not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133491)
Why does it always come to that if those that don't agree to something that is or feels wrong etc means we're intolerant and ignorant.
I didn't particularly single you out but ok - I don't agree that there are more than 2 genders for example. But do I go around saying those that do are 'silly' or mock them? No, I keep it to myself. A lot of people need to understand that just because they have an opinion does not automatically mean the world has to know about it.

My mate wants to be referred to as 'them/they'. Do I agree there is an extra gender that requires such a pronoun? No, I don't. But it costs me nothing to comply with their simple request. The world does not revolve around my opinion of someone's gender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133491)
Not agreeing with it shouldn't mean we're being unkind either. .
Again, I didn't say you were being unkind.

Being unkind is when you're aware someone wants to be referred to by a certain pronoun, makes a simple and respectful request to be referred to that way but you use their birth pronoun anyway just because you disagree with the whole thing.

peanut 07-09-2022 08:29
Re: Pronouns
 
If someone said they want to be referred to as they/them then it would not be an issue for me. I would say good luck with that, but that's not for me. If they have a problem with that then it's their problem and not mine. It would not change a single thing to how I would treat that person as I would anyone else.

Russ 07-09-2022 08:32
Re: Pronouns
 
So would you go along with their request?

peanut 07-09-2022 08:45
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133494)
So would you go along with their request?
I've already said it's not for me.

Russ 07-09-2022 08:51
Re: Pronouns
 
Given how it wouldn’t impact your life one bit and would cost you nothing that’s pretty unfortunate.

peanut 07-09-2022 08:54
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133496)
Given how it wouldn’t impact your life one bit and would cost you nothing that’s pretty unfortunate.
That is totally fine with me. It would cost nothing to 'those' to accept my point of view either.

Sephiroth 07-09-2022 09:00
Re: Pronouns
 
But putting this stuff into the heads of kids is plain wrong.

Russ's 8 year old may "get it" but it's a burden that is totally unnecessary at this stage in life.

The discourse between Peanut and Russ tells me that this is adult stuff. Really - is a kid going to choose a pronoun? They?

Russ 07-09-2022 09:16
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133498)
But putting this stuff into the heads of kids is plain wrong
Any evidence to back up the idea that teaching kids about pronouns is “wrong”?

And I’m sorry, “burden”? The only burden my son has is whether or not he’s going to get FIFA 23 from me for Christmas.

He understands the use of pronouns. It has not negatively impacted his life one bit.

---------- Post added at 09:16 ---------- Previous post was at 09:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133497)
That is totally fine with me. It would cost nothing to 'those' to accept my point of view either.
Use of pronouns wouldn’t affect your life one bit. Lack of use could affect their lives.

It costs nothing to be kind.

Sephiroth 07-09-2022 09:22
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133499)
Any evidence to back up the idea that teaching kids about pronouns is “wrong”?

And I’m sorry, “burden”? The only burden my son has is whether or not he’s going to get FIFA 23 from me for Christmas.

He understands the use of pronouns. It has not negatively impacted his life one bit.
Pronouns in the grammatical sense, yes. And that includes he/she (singular), they (plural).

The other stuff about social pronouns should be left to much later in the education process.

peanut 07-09-2022 09:33
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133499)
Use of pronouns wouldn’t affect your life one bit. Lack of use could affect their lives.

It costs nothing to be kind.
Not if you're upfront about it and there's no malice in your reasons why. And I'm sure as always I would be kind about it.

Sephiroth 07-09-2022 09:50
Re: Pronouns
 
Julian wrote (QUOTE didn't work):

Quote:
Maybe there wouldn't be so much of an issue if existing pronouns weren't being hijacked?

Maybe new pronouns could have been invented?
I can just imagine how this might be taught.

"Now children, we have he/she/it in the singular. We have they/them in plural. That's how it's been since time began. Now, to accommodate modern mental conflicts as to gender in some cases and perverts in other cases, new pronouns have been invented.

But first, the difference between sex and gender ....."

A total can of worms to confuse children. "Now children, if you don't feel that your gender is the same as your sex, put up your hand".

Jeez.

Russ 07-09-2022 10:00
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133502)
Pronouns in the grammatical sense, yes. And that includes he/she (singular), they (plural).

The other stuff about social pronouns should be left to much later in the education process.
So you’ve presented your opinion, that’s cool. But it’s not evidence.

---------- Post added at 09:58 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133504)
Not if you're upfront about it and there's no malice in your reasons why. And I'm sure as always I would be kind about it.
And speaking as someone who feels they have a different gender you’re sure you wouldn’t be upset by someone refusing to acknowledge your chosen pronoun?

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133507)
Julian wrote (QUOTE didn't work):



I can just imagine how this might be taught.

"Now children, we have he/she/it in the singular. We have they/them in plural. That's how it's been since time began. Now, to accommodate modern mental conflicts as to gender in some cases and perverts in other cases, new pronouns have been invented.

But first, the difference between sex and gender ....."

A total can of worms to confuse children. "Now children, if you don't feel that your gender is the same as your sex, put up your hand".

Jeez.
Well thank the Lord it wouldn’t be taught that way.

If I told you a story about my neighbour but didn’t tell you the sex/gender which pronoun would you use for this person?

peanut 07-09-2022 10:02
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133508)
And speaking as someone who feels they have a different gender you’re sure you wouldn’t be upset by someone refusing to acknowledge your chosen pronoun?
To be honest I wouldn't have a clue. But what I do know is that I'll be truthful but not hurtful. If it comes down to it that the person is still upset then they have to learn that real life doesn't revolve around them. And if that was the case then I refer back to my 'it's their problem, and not mine' comment.

Russ 07-09-2022 10:13
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133511)
To be honest I wouldn't have a clue. But what I do know is that I'll be truthful but not hurtful. If it comes down to it that the person is still upset then they have to learn that real life doesn't revolve around them. And if that was the case then I refer back to my 'it's their problem, and not mine' comment.
So if I’ve got this right, a slight change to a word you may use won’t hurt or harm your life in any way but deliberately refusing to use it could cause hurt to someone, and you’d still refuse to make that change.

Have I understood that correctly?

peanut 07-09-2022 10:17
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133513)
So if I’ve got this right, a slight change to a word you may use won’t hurt or harm your life in any way but deliberately refusing to use it could cause hurt to someone, and you’d still refuse to make that change.

Have I understood that correctly?
Yes, unless you want me to lie to the person just to please them and to not hurt their feelings. Which is the reason why I choose not to.

It seems you don't accept anything other than right or wrong, there's nothing in between. Even if those that don't agree with but would be accommodating by accepting that they can call themselves whatever they want, but just don't expect me to follow just ain't good enough for you.

Russ 07-09-2022 10:23
Re: Pronouns
 
I’m sorry where are you lying to them?

All I’m accepting is it’s pretty unkind to simply refuse to consider a tiny change when doing so doesn’t affect your life one bit.

If it cost you money or weakens your rights in society then yeah I could understand that.

But we both know it’s nothing like that.

peanut 07-09-2022 10:25
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133518)
I’m sorry where are you lying to them?

All I’m accepting is it’s pretty unkind to simply refuse to consider a tiny change when doing so doesn’t affect your life one bit.

If it cost you money or weakens your rights in society then yeah I could understand that.

But we both know it’s nothing like that.
Are you saying I should comply against my beliefs or wishes just to please a group that I don't agree with? And for that I'm being 'unkind'?

Russ 07-09-2022 10:32
Re: Pronouns
 
You still haven’t said how you’d be lying to someone :confused:

Answer me this:

Would using a different pronoun for someone harm or hurt your life in any way?

Yes or no.

peanut 07-09-2022 10:33
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133520)
You still haven’t said how you’d be lying to someone :confused:

Answer me this:

Would using a different pronoun for someone harm or hurt your life in any way?

Yes or no.
Would you say there is no God? Would that hurt your life or would you be truthful?

Tolerance work both ways, seems a bit lacking on your side.

Pierre 07-09-2022 10:36
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133518)
All I’m accepting is it’s pretty unkind to simply refuse to consider a tiny change when doing so doesn’t affect your life one bit.
It effects language and ultimately society.

Take this nonsense for example

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...er-author.html

And then this piece in the express

https://www.express.co.uk/celebrity-...-latest-photos

It is asking you suspend what you are seeing with your own eyes. That is a MAN in a dress nothing more nothing less. You know it is, I know it is, he knows it is. Not a she.

Once you can make people say the opposite of what they see, I'll probably get rediculed for this........but hasn't anybody read the end of 1984?

Language is important, so is the right to say what is implicitly true, even if it upsets some people.

Russ 07-09-2022 10:43
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133521)
Would you say there is no God? Would that hurt your life or would you be truthful?
I'd be truthful - there is a God. And I've shown a lot of restraint against militant atheists on CF for many, many years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133521)
Tolerance work both ways, seems a bit lacking on your side.
I'm not the one refusing to agree to a simple request that harms nobody.

And don't worry about answering my questions, you've demonstrated that you refuse.

peanut 07-09-2022 10:44
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133524)
I'd be truthful - there is a God. And I've shown a lot of restraint against militant atheists on CF for many, many years.



I'm not the one refusing to agree to a simple request that harms nobody.

And don't worry about answering my questions, you've demonstrated that you refuse.
But if a person wants you to say there is no God, would you comply to please them? Not going to hurt you is it?

Russ 07-09-2022 10:48
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36133522)
It effects language and ultimately society.
Were you not aware that language evolves with the times?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36133522)
Language is important, so is the right to say what is implicitly true, even if it upsets some people.
As long as it complies with Laws and decency I support your right to say what you think is the truth.

But as you well know, just because you have an opinion does not mean you have to share it with the world.

In case you've forgotten, I disagree that there are more than 2 genders.

---------- Post added at 10:48 ---------- Previous post was at 10:46 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133525)
But if a person wants you to say there is no God, would you comply to please them? Not going to hurt you is it?
Can you give me an example of a scenario where someone would require me to say that?

peanut 07-09-2022 10:51
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133526)
Can you give me an example of a scenario where someone would require me to say that?
I sure you know exactly the point I'm trying to make. You want me to agree and call someone They/Them because it doesn't hurt to do so. But I don't believe in it. So why should I.

So I put it to you, answer my question. One in which we already know the answer. It's the same.

Russ 07-09-2022 10:53
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36133529)
I sure you know exactly the point I'm trying to make. You want me to agree and call someone They/Them because it doesn't hurt to do so. But I don't believe in it. So why should I.

So I put it to you, answer my question. One in which we already know the answer. It's the same.
Oh you want me to answer YOUR question when you've been ignoring mine.

Outstanding.

I can't give a hypothetical answer to a question from a scenario that isn't going to happen.

You however could very well be in a situation where someone you know or around you asks you to use their chosen pronoun.

peanut 07-09-2022 10:57
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133530)
Oh you want me to answer YOUR question when you've been ignoring mine.

Outstanding.

I can't give a hypothetical answer to a question from a scenario that isn't going to happen.

You however could very well be in a situation where someone you know or around you asks you to use their chosen pronoun.
Well there we have it. I've been clear but you don't accept it. That's fine. As for ignoring your questions the answers are all there, you just ignored most of mine.

I have nothing left to add to this topic, everything I've said it pretty clear enough for anyone else. No point in going round in circles. I'm moot. :tu:

Russ 07-09-2022 11:01
Re: Pronouns
 
Great cop-out :tu:

peanut 07-09-2022 11:02
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133533)
Great cop-out :tu:
Not at all. I know when it's going nowhere and I'm not falling for your agenda. If you want to carry it on via PM, fine by me. No point in wasting others reading time on here with this.

Russ 07-09-2022 11:10
Re: Pronouns
 
My only agenda was to unsuccessfully get you to answer my questions.

Sephiroth 07-09-2022 11:52
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133508)
<SNIP>

Well thank the Lord it wouldn’t be taught that way.

If I told you a story about my neighbour but didn’t tell you the sex/gender which pronoun would you use for this person?
Simples. He/she.

Chris 07-09-2022 11:57
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133539)
Simples. He/she.
Which is clumsy and grammatically sub-optimal.

The efficient and perfectly acceptable way to refer to someone of unknown sex is, and always has been, “they”. You do your arguments no favours at all with your obsessive resistance to this one very minor thing.

Russ 07-09-2022 12:01
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133539)
Simples. He/she.
Which one though?

---------- Post added at 12:01 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36133540)
Which is clumsy and grammatically sub-optimal.

The efficient and perfectly acceptable way to refer to someone of unknown sex is, and always has been, “they”. You do your arguments no favours at all with your obsessive resistance to this one very minor thing.
:clap:

OLD BOY 07-09-2022 14:24
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36133540)
Which is clumsy and grammatically sub-optimal.

The efficient and perfectly acceptable way to refer to someone of unknown sex is, and always has been, “they”. You do your arguments no favours at all with your obsessive resistance to this one very minor thing.
Yes, but it grates because it is ungrammatical.

However, that’s what I do to keep the peace.

Sephiroth 07-09-2022 14:46
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36133541)
Which one though?:
"He/she".

Mad Max 07-09-2022 14:49
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133481)
Confusing kids with this pronoun tripe is total shite.

English, Maths and creative stuff is what schools should be teaching.

Spot on.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:47 ----------

Spoiler: 
I'd be truthful - there is a God.


Prove it.

Russ 07-09-2022 14:52
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133587)
"He/she".
Which one would you use given you don’t know my neighbour’s gender?

Chris 07-09-2022 14:52
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36133583)
Yes, but it grates because it is ungrammatical.

However, that’s what I do to keep the peace.
It is not ungrammatical. On the contrary it is correct English grammar and has been since time immemorial. It is not an invention of radical gender campaigners.

I refer you to Oxford, which has traced the earliest known use of “they” as a singular pronoun where sex is unknown to the year 1375.

https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-...singular-they/

Russ 07-09-2022 14:53
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Max (Post 36133588)
[/COLOR]
Spoiler: 
I'd be truthful - there is a God.


Prove it.
Prove there isn’t.

Lol not really, as that’s off-topic but I was asked it in terms of my beliefs and what I’d say. Not as a statement of fact.

OLD BOY 07-09-2022 17:00
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36133591)
It is not ungrammatical. On the contrary it is correct English grammar and has been since time immemorial. It is not an invention of radical gender campaigners.

I refer you to Oxford, which has traced the earliest known use of “they” as a singular pronoun where sex is unknown to the year 1375.

https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-...singular-they/
Yes, I’m aware of that Chris, but does it not depend on the context in which it is used? In the 1375 example, it sounds right, but if you say, for example:

‘Dolores put on her shoes and then they walked away’,

it sounds decidedly odd, as if the shoes were walking away (which I suppose they were, really! :D

Hugh 07-09-2022 17:14
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36133606)
Yes, I’m aware of that Chris, but does it not depend on the context in which it is used? In the 1375 example, it sounds right, but if you say, for example:

‘Dolores put on her shoes and then they walked away’,

it sounds decidedly odd, as if the shoes were walking away (which I suppose they were, really! :D
It doesn’t sound odd if you say, for example:

"My neighbour put on their shoes and then they walked away"

or

"My child put on their shoes and then they walked away"

1andrew1 07-09-2022 17:30
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36133606)
Yes, I’m aware of that Chris, but does it not depend on the context in which it is used? In the 1375 example, it sounds right, but if you say, for example:

‘Dolores put on her shoes and then they walked away’,

it sounds decidedly odd, as if the shoes were walking away (which I suppose they were, really! :D
The odd bit is referring to Dolores as a "her" and then a "they" in the same sentence.

papa smurf 07-09-2022 17:43
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36133612)
The odd bit is referring to Dolores as a "her" and then a "they" in the same sentence.
Who's Dolores, do i know it.

Pierre 07-09-2022 18:01
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36133606)
Yes, I’m aware of that Chris, but does it not depend on the context in which it is used? In the 1375 example, it sounds right, but if you say, for example:

‘Dolores put on her shoes and then they walked away’,

it sounds decidedly odd, as if the shoes were walking away (which I suppose they were, really! :D
Because of her name, you can make a sensible assumption that Delores is a she, which you have done by referring to her as "her".

Therefore by ascertaining she is a she, the correct singular pronoun is "she" not " they", so you are just grammatically incorrect with that example.

A correct use of they as a singular pronoun would be. "there was a person at the door, I didn't see who it was and a few moments later they left"

Chris 07-09-2022 18:28
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36133606)
Yes, I’m aware of that Chris, but does it not depend on the context in which it is used? In the 1375 example, it sounds right, but if you say, for example:

‘Dolores put on her shoes and then they walked away’,

it sounds decidedly odd, as if the shoes were walking away (which I suppose they were, really! :D
I’m quite sure you weren’t aware, otherwise why would you call something ungrammatical when you knew it isn’t? You got caught out, plain and simple. And, the 1375 example isn’t just a historical curiosity. The third person pronoun (sex unknown) is part of the present definition in the Oxford dictionary.

Your example of Dolores is silly. You know her sex because you call her “she”, so you would not in the same sentence also call her “they”.

Sephiroth 07-09-2022 18:42
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36133613)
Who's Dolores, do i know it.
Get a grip, Papa. 'Do I know them?"

Chris 07-09-2022 18:45
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133635)
Get a grip, Papa. 'Do I know them?"
Finally, he gets it! :D

Maggy 08-09-2022 09:00
Re: Pronouns
 
Reading this thread I think the whole country needs an English course on pronouns alone.

papa smurf 08-09-2022 09:30
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36133658)
Reading this thread I think the whole country needs an English course on pronouns alone.
Thems sure duz

Sephiroth 08-09-2022 10:46
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36133658)
Reading this thread I think the whole country needs an English course on pronouns alone.

What - woke indoctrination?

Maggy 08-09-2022 13:32
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133672)

What - woke indoctrination?
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dic...nglish/pronoun

https://www.thesaurus.com/e/grammar/...s-of-pronouns/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronoun

Confusion abounds and I'm not the only one.Woke has nothing to do with it.I just think some have not thought it through.;)

Sephiroth 08-09-2022 14:24
Re: Pronouns
 

Yeah - first stir up the woke agenda; second, get the woke stuff into the dictionary; third, pillory the unwoke.

Hugh 08-09-2022 14:29
Re: Pronouns
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36133714)

Yeah - first stir up the woke agenda; second, get the woke stuff into the dictionary; third, pillory the unwoke.
Telegraph/Mail/Express - first stir up the woke "controversy"; second, keep making shit up to get people angry and distract them from the real problems; third, pillory those who disagree with this…

Paul 08-09-2022 14:37
Re: Pronouns
 
*sigh* back to the topic.


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