Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Not much left to wreck there, maybe it will end up being a peaceful 'fish n chips' protest ;)

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Maggy, a few months ago I had a discussion with someone saying they want to drop World War I from the syllabus. Do you know anything about this?

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I think it's pretty clear that Churchill held some views which we would now term racist. Rewriting history would be to airbrush this aspect of him out. A better approach would be to acknowledge and contexualise his views.
https://inews.co.uk/news/winston-chu...plained-440668

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Well there's been no boozers open, no football matches for months so i predict a huge punch up and very busy police cells on Saturday night,it'll be like life as returned to normal again.;)

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

How about the de-industrialisation of India in the 1700s & 1800s, the export of food need to feed starving Indians during the famine of the 1870s, the deaths of nearly 30,000 (mainly) women and children in the concentration camps during the Boer War (out of around 100,000 captives), the minimisation of the fact that over 2 million soldiers from India, Africa, and the Caribbean fought for the British during the First World War, and the (until recently) erasure from the history books of Mary Seacole.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

When I was at school WW1 took a backseat to WW2. I wouldn't be surprised if that trend was continued as time moves further on.

---------- Post added at 18:39 ---------- Previous post was at 18:34 ----------

Why? It's not rewriting history so much as adding more depth to it. Churchill is celebrated for leading the country in WW2, complete with the tenacity in doing so, his ability to motivate the nation during the darkest parts of the Battle of Britain and in recognizing the threat Hitler posed. None of that precludes the idea he expressed racist views, it's just that his achievements are far more significant that to dismiss him as a racist would be stupid and simplistic.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Sure if you also cover Adam Smith, the Enlightenment and the French Revolution.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The point is typically those do get more coverage than the negative aspects of our history.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

And what would be so wrong in realising that most of the people in the UK today have connections with somewhere else in the world at some point in the their family tree?
And who exactly is say that? Pretty sure that no-one in BLM is suggesting not talking about existing history, but to ensure what we do learn is re-contextualised within the wider world view that a lot of recent history teaching doesn't cover or allow for.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Except that is a lie. When I was in school there was nothing about those periods at all. In the last ten years people are falling over themselves to lecture me about Mary Seacole.

When I want to learn about the British Raj I pretty much have to find a Hindu nationalist to yell facts at me.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Hugh didn't mention school. Neither did I. Hugh just mentioned this country and how we reflect on our history and that is a much wider discussion that just what we teach in basic history lessons.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Hey you're right, i guess we're all related to some slimy thing that crawled out of the primal ooze . . . unless, like me, you're the distant offspring of aliens who crashed near Sherwood forest in 1632 . . but we don't like to talk about that in case you get agitated :p:

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

More statues some people want removed.

https://www.toppletheracists.org/

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Yep, mob mentality rules.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Nelsons Column, another monument supposedly lined up for termination by black skynet. Clearly depicts black sailors in the battle, fighting for Britain.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The statue of slave trader Robert Milligan has now been removed from West India Quay

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

And there are reasons for that. Whatever else Nelson achieved, he was pro the status quo of the slave trade:

https://www.historyextra.com/period/...rce-dark-side/
Now the context of that is that within his strata of society, that was the prevalent view. However it shouldn't now stop us from re-evaluating how we celebrate historical figures with additional knowledge.

Should all monuments to those who held views we don't now agree with be taken down? No. Should we have reasoned and rational debate about them? Yes.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

“The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.” ― George Orwell.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

“Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.”
― George Orwell, 1984


“Day by day and almost minute by minute the past was brought up to date.”
― George Orwell, 1984

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I don't remember what that is from, it's been a while since I read Orwell, but that point could be argued either way.

After all, what is being argued for now is a greater understanding of our history. To start talking about slavery, racism and empire in a way that we typically have not. The people who've been destroyed are not those whose crimes nevertheless inspired statues but those who've been written out of history because we would rather not address what happened to them.

Besides, Orwell was not a fan of Empire and Imperialism and wrote against it often. I am not sure he is the best author to cite when discussing this.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The guardian has literally been talking about this stuff my entire life. To claim otherwise is bullshit.

Should we take down Alfred the great because he killed Viking hostages?

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

You seem aware of that already and so have context around his life and history.

How many people know that Nelson was pro slavery for instance. Or that the other people that are being mentioned when it comes to their statues were directly connected to the slave trade.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The Guardian is perceived as a pretty left-wing and liberal paper for doing so (amongst other things) but good for them I guess. However, it's certainly not an example of us destroying our history to discuss it more.

As people have pointed out the toppling of the statue of Colston adds to our history now, people are talking of him as being a slave trader as opposed to just a philanthropist. I am guessing actually that a lot more people know who he is and what he did now than they did a week ago. The statue itself will likely end up a museum to further educate people into his and our history.

The people who removed him don't want his name gone from the history books, they want people to know precisely who he was.


My view on statues is that it depends on why they're there in the first place. Almost everyone in history will have had racist views or otherwise 'problematic' views but if they're being commemorated for something else then that achievement still stands. As I said earlier Churchill's racist comments are insignificant compared to what he did so vandalise his statue was both stupid and morally wrong. Nelson is there for different reasons as well. Most of the founding fathers of America had slaves but given they founded America then their moments remain whilst those who led the confederacy are taken down.

To be honest I am rather unbothered if these statues remain or not. My own view is that our history is what it is, we can't go back and fix it all, but we should discuss the parts that are bad more than we do. If it takes the statue coming down then fine but I would also be fine with the statue being recontextualised to highlight the link to slavery for example and if it is taken down I would rather it not be done by a crowd of people like this.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

that monument is part of black history, it depicts black people fighting at Trafalgar.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The insanity and censorship continues ;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-52983319

Personally I never liked the show, not my kind of humour, but this is just moronic.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Also should we hand back looted treasures?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/p...-era-jfhpn8mwp

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I understand the point made by some that would a Jewish person enjoy walking past a statue of Hitler.

I understand that entirely. It is still, just, within living memory.

But when you get a few hundred years down the line it is different. It becomes of its time and should be judged objectively and remembered, with thought and explanation not ignorance and violence.

---------- Post added at 22:38 ---------- Previous post was at 22:38 ----------

Our museums would be empty.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Why?

Matt Lucas and David Walliams have both stated they regret the segments of the shows that have caused the removal from streaming services.

---------- Post added at 22:43 ---------- Previous post was at 22:41 ----------

Except the statues of Hitler were taken down within the lifetimes of those affected. Those that were affected by the people who statues we are talking about didn't have the ability to influence that at the time, mainly because they were still (and are to a level) discriminated against.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

But if that's not what is happening, instead those people are being celebrated, then what?

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Of course they have, the twatter mob would be on them in a flash if they said anything else. :rolleyes:
Given how anyone who dares to do something the mob disagrees with gets fired (even if it was years ago) they will of course say whatever they think people want to hear.

No one forces anyone to watch TV.
I'm also pretty sure everyone (black/white/whatever) is perfectly capable of making a choice whether to watch or not to watch something, and actually have a sense of reality, they know its a comedy show, from the past.

I know, from friends of mine who are not white (and btw, not hetro) that they find this kind of thing, where others censor on their behalf, to be quite insulting. It implies they have no sense of humour at all, must be offended by everything, and cannot laugh at themselves.

If you cannot understand censorship, then you will certainly enjoy the 1984 world we are moving towards.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

They've been saying it for several years now

https://www.radiotimes.com/news/tv/2...rent-time-now/
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ety-empathetic

Although even then it's a little bit of a hypocritical standpoint as they then did Come Fly With Me which was called out from the outset as in the same vein of racial stereotypes

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...me-fly-with-me

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Which doesnt change that point one bit.
Sensible people watch what they say on any SM.
An actor on 'The Flash' was fired just yesterday for comments made 6-7 years ago.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Attitudes change, and society changes.

We don't tolerate adverts for tobacco now, even though they used to be extremely popular. The Black and White Minstrel show used to be a popular show in the UK, and still was relatively popular at it's point of cancellation. However we wouldn't even consider repeating it today because views have evolved.

There is a difference between shows that allow anyone to laugh at themselves and those that are designed to mock others because of physical or other attributes.

Shows like Desmond's or Goodness Gracious Me are rightly celebrated as comedy greats because they were created by people from the background of those it was making fun of, and the comedy came from the experiences of those people, not 'haha aren't those people strange because they're not like us'.

Similar discussions are being held about the representations of the LGBTQ+ communities and people with health conditions or impairments as to how best represent them in media and entertainment.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

TV Shows dont give you cancer, totally different thing.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

This is not about enlightening the British people. Their ignorance is boundless and could be reduced any number of ways. This is about removing heroes and cultural touchstones so they can be replaced by new ones. At the demand of a mob I will add i.e. Iconoclasm.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

So if it's different then why do we have a watershed and film ratings.

Media can influence ideas and attitudes as much as any physical products can affect health.
As I said before, my personal view is that the re-evaluation is the key here. But where the only reason for the statue in the first place is due to the ability to be a philanthropist due their slave trade wealth, then that is a problem that needs to be discussed. The statue in Bristol has been talked about for many years before the recent action. No-one could agree on an acceptable solution. Same for the Rhodes situation in Oxford.

BTW, the BNP have also been calling for statues of Nelson Mandela to be taken down. Do I agree with that? No. Do I accept they have a right within our society to raise it as discussion due to some of the actions of the ANC? Yes.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

:confused:
Sorry but I dont understand the relevance of either of these.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Following your point that what is the point of any watershed or film classifications? Surely if everyone is capable, then broadcasters should be able to show whatever they like whenever they like and leave it up to individual choice.

---------- Post added at 23:46 ---------- Previous post was at 23:42 ----------

Or maybe we accept that there is a balance between choice and control, and sometimes they don't immediately line up with one another. And that that includes re-evaluating the context of things as our views and those of our society change.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I hope you're not being deliberately dim ?
I'm sure you know perfectly well we are referring to adults here.
As I'm equally sure you know that both exist to stop children seeing adult material (well, supposedly, we all know they dont work very well).

Again, not the same thing at all.
You can still view any show after the watershed, or any rated film, once you reach the required age.
If they simply attached a 'Viewer Discretion' warning to LB (as an example) that would be entirely different to removing it.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

It's just got completely out of hand now, an absolute disgrace with spineless apologists rolling over and playing dead :mad:

I just hope I don't have to desecrate my Mothers grave because many years ago she used to collect the gollywog stickers off jam jars :shocked:

oh, and I doubt very much if there will be anyone left on the TV and Radio if we're going back 30 years to see if they once said something that will upset the cry babies.

Welcome to Hell . . . . I think you've opened the gates

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

If people are worried about TV content they should do what Warner Bros do ahead of Tom and Jerry cartoons:

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2020/06/2.jpg

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

HBO have removed "gone with the wind" entirely.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Love that!

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

:Yes:

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

So where do you draw lines in censorship? Blazing Saddles is one of my favourite movies, yes it has racism in it but tries to show using comedy how silly it is. What about Roots, Cry The Beloved Country, Mississippi Burning? The old Charlie Chan films were much more racist in their depiction of blacks.

I think that there is a difference between racial/(sexual etc) humour (making fun of things you find odd about other cultures/people/faiths) and racist humour (denigrating another group because of their difference). The former CAN be done very well and very funny, the latter never is acceptable.

The problem is that we have a lot of emphasis on how the "target" receives things as opposed to the attitude of the source. Both are important but it can get too imbalanced so that even the slightest affront becomes a "hate crime".

(I grew up in South Africa in 2 trips finally returning to the UK when I was 13. On our mid stay return to the UK we settled in a very white area. Because I had grown up outside in the sun I was the most pigmented person in the school and was the butt of some very unkind remarks. Maybe it's just me but I pretty much ignored them as silly childish comments, that's all they were really. They were and are unacceptable and shouldn't have happened. So I do have a little (very little) understanding of comments made in relation to skin colour.)

What about religious prejudice? While I do not want to get like Islamic states but I find making fun of Jesus and using His name as an expletive very offensive and hurtful. I don't care that it's become common usage, the N word (and others) were once in common usage but are not acceptable now.

Finally there is a danger that all this disruption and pulling down of statues can detract from the issue at hand. We need to get rid of racist elements in authority now. We can deal with historic grievances when things are calmer and can be done with discussion and rational thought.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Nobody seemed to mind when new information came out about some modern-day "heroes", which informed a different viewpoint (Saville & Harris) - don’t hear calls for memorials for their philanthropic work...

It’s not about "removing heroes", it’s about providing a fuller picture, rather than the sanitised version currently in place.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Exactly.:tu:

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

a) This is not new information, this is new perspective. If they had known about Saville in the 80s they would not have tolerated it. Everyone knew how these slavers made their money, it was not a secret. It was not exactly fondly looked upon at the time by everyone.

b) It is manifestly not true that this is providing a fuller picture. You are not providing more information about a film by removing it, or statues.

c) I work with these people. Here's another quote from Orwell:
This is entirely true in my experience. In fact they can't help themselves.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Fears over planned rival gathering ahead of Cleethorpes' Black Lives Matter march

One Humberston resident said he had seen the posts encouraging people to gather ahead of the main walk from Cleethorpes Leisure Centre to The Pier.

"It is intimidating when the messages say '"we are not going to let the b*****ds deface our monuments," said the Grimsby Live reader.

As i said in an earlier post this will not end well.

https://www.grimsbytelegraph.co.uk/n...hering-4208874

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I don't think this weekend is going to be much fun.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-protests.html
__________________

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Sky prioritised it over the Daily cov19 briefing .

---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 ----------

Broken link

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Temporarily.Will not be cut but when reinstated, it will have a discussion of its historical context.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Well, the football isn't on yet, so the thugs have to do something to entertain themselves.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I am now being told not to work today to support BLM. This is from the same people who insisted I go to Switzerland as the coronovirus was spreading through Europe.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Exactly and no pubs open so no punch up's for 3 months now.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Plenty of people knew about Saville by the 1980s. It was tolerated, and his activities weren’t taken seriously, because of a combination of a cult of celebrity around him (a pernicious and ongoing problem especially within large media organisations like the BBC), and society in general not taking child abuse seriously.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

If it had been explicitly proven to the wider public they would not have tolerated it.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

The George Floyd funeral seems to have been judged by broadcasters an event of international significance and more newsworthy. Given the impact his death has made on the UK, that appears a good call to me. We live in an era of multi-channel and on-demand TV, so plenty of options for all.

Some slave-traders and plantation-owners did donate some of their ill-gotten gains to charity but this does not wipe their slates clean. In the case of Edward Colston, Hugh posted a link about the attempts to add a contextualised placque but these seemed to have been blocked by vested interests.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

We can quote Orwell all day:

Orwell wasn't someone who hated Britain but was also not shy about stating that it did bad things and in the above quote references how we were reluctant to discuss it.

It isn't hating Britain to want to account and talk about the bad as well as the good parts of our history. I think it gives you more credibility to be proud of, for example, defeating fascism in Europe if you also acknowledge the bad.

As I said I am ambivalent on the removal of the statue but I do think we shouldn't have statues glorifying people who were slave traders without adding that bit of context. Would you support keeping the statue and adding that context? Changing the inscriptions of such statues to show how their wealth was acquired, how the money that built these cities was acquired? There is also the idea of changing the statue to reflect it's being pulled down. That way both parts of the history are shown.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I am not an English chauvinist, half my family comes from Eastern Europe. I can criticise England all day long. I am warning you about iconoclasm and cultural revolution.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

:tu:

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I didn't say you were. I was saying that the people who want to provoke this debate aren't, all, people who could be summed up by Orwell's quote about the left and institutions.

I don't think this is a cultural revolution. I think it's just one of those flashpoints that will abate rather soon, likely after people go too far. I.E The people who want to remain Gladstone hall in Liverpool because his family had slave holdings.

The statue of slaveholders will likely go. However, there seems to be wider support for that even if they disagree with the way it was done. I think the idea of putting them in museums where they can be seen alongside the additional context of how they got their money is a sensible idea and isn't destorying the statue.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

So do we erase history.Ignore it?
After all the quote is those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.Is that why we fought not one but 2 world wars?

Surely there is a way for us to actually finally learn and keep learning without erasing the bad people from the history of the globe?We need ogres to remind us what can go wrong.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Well I pray you are correct however I will remind you we are in a global crisis, a few weeks ago the prime minister almost died, Parliament cannot meet properly, the old cannot leave their houses without risk of dying and the most pressing issue was a civil servant who drove to Durham.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Things always seem chaotic at the time and eventually things just carry on. We've certainly seen worst violence at protests than we have with this BLM, G20 riots for one.

All this will pass and we'll be onto the next thing.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I feel sorry for the pigeons, years of crapping on statues . . . then all of a sudden your regular toilet is in a museum :shocked:

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Don't worry, they'll just use my car. They usually do.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Spot on. In 1980 I worked at a radio station in Leeds. It was a very junior position but, nevertheless, I was told that if Saville was ever in the building I should never, ever leave him alone with any children, male or female.

If a junior employee knew about it, obviously those higher up the hierarchy did.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

It may have been known to "insiders" but it was not general public knowledge.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

It’s interesting to see CF’ers varying views on this subject.

Has anyone discussed this with black friends, neighbours, or family? What were their views? (if you feel like sharing).

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Any memorial to those people isn't grade two listed

And you provide a fuller picture by removing the object fully? I'm all for plaques beung added saying exactly what they did btw and in some peoples minds it is exactly about removing heroes, Nelson being the prime example

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

In some cases they want them put in museums instead, other people want them kept but with the additional context and fewer people support the removal of Nelson than Colston. One of the ideas for the colston statue now is that they kept the plinth it was on and the part of it that broke off on the floor, so there is a still a landmark to explain who he was and why it's gone.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Unfortunately, it seems sizeable number of people are using the guise of 'demonstation' or 'protest' to riot, vandalise, bully, disrupt and generally cause nuisance (in the US and the UK). There are plenty of videos surfacing on the internet to support this viewpoint.

A lot of people are certainly not 'peaceful protesters'. It's a shame, because it takes away from the true cause of the upset and substantially undermines what the vast majority are trying to bring attention to. I think the bigger picture in all of this is really just 'police brutality (in the US) - period. A little bit of power can go to people's heads and it is abused.

Of course, we mustn't forget the 90's classic 'Killing in the name of' - poignant right now, perhaps?

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

What do you mean by sizable?

Also important to note that some content going around actually comes from totally different demonstrations.
https://fullfact.org/online/blm-prot...ndon-pictures/

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Bozo needs to get a grip on this before it spirals out of control.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

It being part of this nations heritage is gone because a mob took the law into their own hands and broke both the law and that statue whilst the police lookrd on and did nothing and now on the whim of the mob more of our cultural heritage is being discarded and there's plans for even more of it to go. I was furious when the Taliban blew up the Buddha's, isis desecrated Palmyra and I'm not keen on this vandalism at all either.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

How did you feel when the Saddam Hussein statue in Baghdad was toppled?

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Totally different context.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Was Saddam Hussein over 300 years old at the time ?

---------- Post added at 00:59 ---------- Previous post was at 00:56 ----------

They even want to remove Robert Peel statues

What planet are this idiots on.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Funnily enough I put that in the post you replied to but just knew someone was going to ask so removed it, Saddam's statue was put up a year before it was pulled down, hardly the same is it

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

More that there should be.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Never heard anything about it..it would be a massive mistake.Erasing any part of history from the syllabus seems absolutely moronic to me. In fact they need to add more especially involving black history and cover how in 2 world wars how people of colour were part of both. They weren't just fought and won by white people.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

I think we are all aware that they were world wars not white wars.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Spot on! The BLM movement was about police brutality in the United States and over here, protesters have hijacked the cause to concentrate on statues. This is pathetic - why do the wreckers get such media attention? Their views are not reflecting the mainstream of public opinion.

Slavery was and is cruel in the extreme, but Britain was the prime mover to abolish it, and we did. Why, therefore, do we have this hard core who are still going on about it now, all these years after abolition? They cannot change history. They should be concentrating on supporting equality for everyone, particularly in the US, and campaigning to tackle head on the problem of modern slavery.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

As an educator I abhor removal of historic characters from history. It smacks of manipulation and you don't have to look far to find governments that rely/relied on this method of retaining control of government.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Baden Powell is going.Who is next?.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-dorset-53004638

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

With the heroics being attributed to the British and the US and very little mention given to the African,Arabic,Mediterranean and Asian contributors to the winning of those conflicts.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

There are endless perspectives you can teach the wars from, from the Hungarian perspective:

A terrorist kills a member of your royal family
The English go to war with you over it
They give half your country to gypsies

This is a sore subject with them to this day.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Piers.. is that you?

That's a ridiculous question in relation to his statement. Next you will be asking if he was happy the statues of Hitler were taken down (democratically I'll add)

This culture of being apologetic for everything done in the past will never fix history or appease anyone. The slave trade existed in every civilisation whether you was black or white. I don't feel ashamed because I'm white nor do I agree to put a plaque on everything to appease a group of people so they can be reminded continually of bad points in our history. You think adding a plaque to statues would solve everything? What about all the buildings which were funded by it. Or what about wealthy families that profited from it and are in a position of wealth today? What about a plaque for the other statues for adulterers or rapists? How far do you go? Not everything needs to be contextualized to prove a point.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

But then the statue of Colston isn't about remembering our history but airbrushing it.

The current plan is now to restore the statue in a museum complete with the graffiti and ropes and explaining who he was, why did had a statue and why it was taken down.

That is actually adding to our history.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Partially correct, BLM is not just about police brutality but also systemic racism in society. There's equal call in the US for removal of statues, Nascar has banned the use of the confederate flag The military were also open to discussing renaming some of their forts until Trump stopped in and blocked it.

Calling people pathetic for exercising their democratic right to protest (that vast majority of it has been peaceful) seems a little off

I don't think many want to change history, but they want a greater degree of acceptance and or knowledge with regards to who suffered.

Let's use the removal of the statue in Bristol as an example. It's removal does not change the historic events, but it does stop the modern day 'celebration' of the man who perpetrated them.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

That's one statue... what about the rest? Remove them all? That might satisfy the intellectual but it won't satisfy the rest.

https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-...lives-18394250

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

This is a misunderstanding, it is the intellectuals who are driving this to the radical extremes.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Nobody says it will fix everything, it does show however that we're more aware as a society of the wrong doings that occurred.

No one is asking people to feel ashamed, we're being asked to think and to teach ourselves about the difficulties that fellow members of the human race face on a daily basis.

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 ----------

A thought all those who are against the removal of statues etc.

Did you have any complaints when Savilles plaque in Scarbrough was defaced ? Or, when his wooden statue was removed and subsequently destroyed from Scoutston ?

---------- Post added at 10:38 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------

I have, i have staff in both SF & MSP who have explained their experiences it made for very sombre listening.

My brother in law is black, ex forces and has spoken about the experiences he faced whilst serving. Also about his current experiences as a private security contractor overseas. (mix of close protection and other duties)

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

As I have said before I believe it depends on who the person is and why they have a statue.

Colston has a slave trader and that's how he got the money he had. As with Confederate Statues in the States I don't think that is worthy of a celebration so if the statue is to remain it should be placed in the context of who he was. Not left alone to celebrate him.

In other cases where the reason they have a statue is different, for a great achievement unrelated to the reason people want them removed, then I believe it should remain. In some circumstances maybe with a plaque explaining a bit further.

The case for Colston's removal is completely morally different from some of the others people have listed.

Re: Black Lives Matter
 

Was savilles plaque grade 2 listed?

Re: Black Lives Matter