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-   -   Sir Keir’s Kerfuffle (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33708900)

ianch99 14-04-2020 23:13
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36031669)
A bit like all that historic rubbish that some threw up to discredit Boris. All a bit pointless really, but what's good fpr the goose....

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------



Stop it, mate. The time for a review is when this has ended, and we will learn from this.

Right now, the government is concentrating on minimising impacts and chasing supplies. It really doesn't need a bunch of smart alecs criticising from the comfort of their armchairs.

Most people are reassured by what the government is doing, so I think we can take from that the government cannot be that far off track.
Stop what exactly? Seeking the truth and stopping mistakes being repeated? You may be content with a Ministry of Truth but many are not.

You know what you have said could be have been taken almost verbatim from a 1950's Soviet Party handbook :) Sort of ironic ..

Paul 14-04-2020 23:33
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
This is not a coronavirus thread, or the school playground.

Stop acting like children and get back to the topic at hand.

ianch99 06-05-2020 19:24
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Johnson clearly out of his depth at PMQ:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1258006926778150912

Quote:
Starmer begins on UK’s death toll & says this is not “apparent success” (reflecting words of the PM on steps on Downing Street Apr 27). “How on earth did it come to this?”
PM: “At this stage I don’t think the data is there to draw conclusions”
Starmer: “These your slides’

papa smurf 06-05-2020 21:06
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36034116)
Johnson clearly out of his depth at PMQ:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1258006926778150912
Starmer was like a damp rag, pmq's are going to be lack luster with him questioning Boris. at least jezzer had passion.

1andrew1 06-05-2020 22:08
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36034124)
Starmer was like a damp rag, pmq's are going to be lack luster with him questioning Boris. at least jezzer had passion.
Getting nostalgic for Jezza? I thought I'd never see the day! :D
I almost had to call 999 as Johnson was being murdered by Sir Keir in PMQ today!

Pierre 06-05-2020 22:12
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36034116)
Johnson clearly out of his depth at PMQ:

https://twitter.com/i/status/1258006926778150912
Not as I see it.

Starter must learn that he has to take the public with him.

Mr K 06-05-2020 23:00
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36034128)
Not as I see it.

Starter must learn that he has to take the public with him.
That's not how the Torygraph saw it.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...starmer-looks/
Quote:
.Bring back Jeremy Corbyn. At the despatch box he was a Conservative prime minister’s dream opponent. Forever asking questions that were vague and garbled. Barely seeming to listen to the answers. And so easy to dismiss by quoting something absurd he’d said in his distant, or indeed recent, past.

Suddenly, though, PMQs has become markedly harder. Mr Corbyn’s successor, Sir Keir Starmer, is efficient, well prepared and deadly calm. His questions, meanwhile, are as precise as a dentist’s drill – and about as much fun to face.

Today Boris Johnson encountered him at PMQs for the first time. The Prime Minister did not look entirely at ease. In fact, he seemed unusually subdued: polite, cautious, conciliatory. Very much on his best behaviour. It was a bit like watching Bertie Wooster in the dock for pinching a policeman’s helmet on the night of the Boat Race. Gamely attempting to answer the prosecution’s questions as best he could, while averting his eyes from the withering glare of the beak.

Sir Keir asked Mr Johnson why he thought Britain had the world’s second highest death rate. The Prime Minister argued that it was pointless to compare the death rates of different countries. Sir Keir reminded him that the Government’s own scientists do exactly that, by publishing a daily chart plotting Britain’s death rate against other countries’. He held up a print-out of the latest chart, as if to jog the Prime Minister’s memory.

Next Sir Keir asked why the Government had “not got to grips with” the crisis in care homes: deaths there, he noted, were continuing to rise. Mr Johnson insisted Sir Keir was “not right... If he looks at the figures in the last few days, there has been a palpable improvement.”

Sir Keir held up another sheet of paper. It was, he explained politely, a print-out of the slide that the Government had published at its news conference the previous evening – “which sadly shows that deaths in care homes have been rising every time they have been reported.”

There was no scorn in Sir Keir’s tone. Nor any sense that he was proving the Prime Minister wrong to score a point. It was just a composed, methodical straightening of the facts. Yet this was not about some trivial, nitpicky little detail. It was about whether the Prime Minister knew if deaths in care homes were going up, or going down. Apparently he did not.

The Labour leader turned to testing. On the last day of April, Matt Hancock had claimed to have hit his target of carrying out 100,000 tests a day. Since then, however, the number of tests had fallen significantly. “What does the Prime Minister think was so special about April 30,” asked Sir Keir, “which meant that testing that particular day was so high?”

A deftly worded question, because Sir Keir knew there was no real way to answer it. Except perhaps to say, “Well, Your Honour – I mean, Mr Speaker – the Health Secretary had publicly set himself a target of 100,000 tests a day ‘by the end of the month’. And the day before, he was still nowhere near it. So he fudged the figures on April 30 by chucking 40,000 home-testing kits in the post. And after that… well, the numbers didn’t matter so much then, did they? He’d already won, hadn’t he?”

jfman 06-05-2020 23:02
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36034128)
Not as I see it.

Starter must learn that he has to take the public with him.
The death count will do that eventually. No amount of puff pieces by a favourable press will cover it up in the end.

ianch99 06-05-2020 23:22
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36034128)
Not as I see it.

Starter must learn that he has to take the public with him.
You need to be more objective. Andrew Neil, a renowned labour supporter, is complementary of the new Labour leader:

Six, forensic, fact-based, important questions from Keir Starmer to the PM, asked in a courteous manner. The PM did not always give full and proper answers. But one thing clear in the waffle: we stopped track and trace March 12 because we simply didn’t have the testing capacity.

Damien 06-05-2020 23:26
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Yeah Starmer did well, definitely a step-up from Corbyn. He is getting clear and pointed questions across instead of dithering and failing to follow up on gaffs. I think he has managed the balance between not going on full attack mode during a crisis but questioning the response.

1andrew1 06-05-2020 23:32
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36034128)
Not as I see it.

Starter must learn that he has to take the public with him.
In my view, Johnson was out of his depth and Sir Keir is doing a great job of holding the government to account. However, whether any opposition leader is able to take the public along with them at the moment is open to debate. In the medium term, I'm sure Sir Keir's solid approach will pay off. Rishi Sunak is one of his few equals on the Government's benches.

OLD BOY 07-05-2020 09:36
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
[Deleted]

Sephiroth 07-05-2020 10:33
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36034137)
Yeah Starmer did well, definitely a step-up from Corbyn. He is getting clear and pointed questions across instead of dithering and failing to follow up on gaffs. I think he has managed the balance between not going on full attack mode during a crisis but questioning the response.
Yep.

Chris 07-05-2020 11:49
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
I didn’t see it, but it would be difficult to conceive of any way he could have been worse than Corbyn.

Ultimately, we won’t get the measure of him until PMQs returns to its usual pugilistic format.

OLD BOY 08-05-2020 01:15
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36034139)
In my view, Johnson was out of his depth and Sir Keir is doing a great job of holding the government to account. However, whether any opposition leader is able to take the public along with them at the moment is open to debate. In the medium term, I'm sure Sir Keir's solid approach will pay off. Rishi Sunak is one of his few equals on the Government's benches.
I like your faith!

Hugh 08-05-2020 09:50
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36034251)
I like your faith!
https://media.giphy.com/media/M4iOAkEAPwAnK/giphy.gif

;)

1andrew1 08-05-2020 16:35
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36034251)
I like your faith!
Thank you. I think Sunak's still a worthy recipient of my trust despite what others may think. ;)

Meanwhile, Sir Keir has issued a timely appeal to the Government which makes the front page of the Telegraph "We owe it to VE Day generation to protect them from virus in care homes"

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/statu...98637228912642

Sephiroth 08-05-2020 17:12
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36034304)
Thank you. I think Sunak's still a worthy recipient of my trust despite what others may think. ;)

Meanwhile, Sir Keir has issued a timely appeal to the Government which makes the front page of the Telegraph "We owe it to VE Day generation to protect them from virus in care homes"

https://twitter.com/hendopolis/statu...98637228912642
A clever move. But entirely valid.

Damien 08-05-2020 18:39
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Getting a front page splash with The Telegraph on VE Day talking about protecting veterans is a very un-Corbyn move.

1andrew1 14-05-2020 01:57
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Sir Keir seems to be nailing PMQs on a regular basis. From The Telegraph
Quote:
Keir Starmer took Boris Johnson apart like a Duplo train set
At PMQs, the new Labour leader asked a series of calmly factual questions – and the Prime Minister visibly struggled
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...plo-train-set/ (Paywall)

Sephiroth 14-05-2020 02:07
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
I'm not surprised. One's a crisp, pinpoint lawyer; the other is unsuited to grappling with detail.

Still, Boris does represent a political credo to which I subscribe. He'll need to do better at PMQs, though.

Carth 14-05-2020 11:02
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
I trust lawyers less than I trust senior Government officials.

If someone happens to be both at the same time . . . they can snog my derriere :D

Hugh 14-05-2020 11:11
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36034995)
I'm not surprised. One's a crisp, pinpoint lawyer; the other is unsuited to grappling with detail.

Still, Boris does represent a political credo to which I subscribe. He'll need to do better at PMQs, though.
Amusingly, I wrote a thesis on this type of situation for an ILM7 Strategic Leadership diploma course almost exactly 10 years ago (it was about the organisation I was in at the time) - as the saying goes "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose"...

Some small excerpts (137 words out of 13,308)
Quote:
Inspirational Motivation enables leaders to inspire colleagues to achieve more than they thought was possible, both in performance and the colleagues’ own personal development, whilst often providing challenge and meaning to the colleagues’ work. These leaders can articulate and provide vision of what is possible, and how colleagues can achieve this vision. Bass and Avolio (Bass & Avolio 1993) state that colleagues can be inspired by a leader without the need for identification with the leader...

...Charismatic transformational leaders can create unrealistic expectations that could potentially cause damage when they cannot live up to the expectations they have created. Some colleagues, and in some cases organisations, become overly dependent on charismatic leaders. This is relevant where colleagues develop a disinclination to disagree with the leader, which can lead to the disenfranchisement of the next layers of management.
I got a merit for this... :D

1andrew1 14-05-2020 12:02
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36034995)
I'm not surprised. One's a crisp, pinpoint lawyer; the other is unsuited to grappling with detail.

Still, Boris does represent a political credo to which I subscribe. He'll need to do better at PMQs, though.
I think many people are attracted by his personality and not his political credo. Certainly, even Johnson has had difficulty in deciding what his views on Brexit leading to him writing two opposing opinion pieces on it and selecting the one he felt would maxximise his chances of becoming PM.

Pierre 14-05-2020 20:16
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36035011)
I think many people are attracted by his personality and not his political credo. Certainly, even Johnson has had difficulty in deciding what his views on Brexit leading to him writing two opposing opinion pieces on it and selecting the one he felt would maxximise his chances of becoming PM.
Personality is nearly everything if you want to take people with you. In all walks of life.

Hugh 14-05-2020 20:34
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035066)
Personality is nearly everything if you want to take people with you. In all walks of life.
Unfortunately for BJ, only initially - you need substance & delivery, as well as good PR, to continue in positions of authority; eventually, the facade of bonhomie is worn away by harsh reality.

ianch99 14-05-2020 21:34
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36035011)
I think many people are attracted by his personality and not his political credo. Certainly, even Johnson has had difficulty in deciding what his views on Brexit leading to him writing two opposing opinion pieces on it and selecting the one he felt would maxximise his chances of becoming PM.
The definition of Populism maybe? Supporting someone on a basis of promise and not principle is a dangerous journey.

I think Starmer is playing the long game and has set out his stall well. We will see what progress he makes over the years to come but as time goes by, Johnson will unravel. I read this quote a few days ago and it seems apt :)

Quote:
Johnson is like a clown running through a minefield

Pierre 14-05-2020 21:41
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035070)
Unfortunately for BJ, only initially - you need substance & delivery, as well as good PR, to continue in positions of authority; eventually, the facade of bonhomie is worn away by harsh reality.
Indeed, I still think BJ has good will and I’m sure there are many that think he’s doing well in a very difficult situation.

The next 6-12 months are key. If Boris can navigate the country through this, keep deaths down and get the economy restarted - he’ll be alright.

Mr K 14-05-2020 21:48
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035080)
Indeed, I still think BJ has good will and I’m sure there are many that think he’s doing well in a very difficult situation.

The next 6-12 months are key. If Boris can navigate the country through this, keep deaths down and get the economy restarted - he’ll be alright.
Well he's failed on the first, and the economy is nose diving. ( Last thing he needs at the moment is something like Brexit). He won't last 5 years, if nothing else he'll get bored and move on to the next jolly caper.

1andrew1 14-05-2020 23:11
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36035082)
Well he's failed on the first, and the economy is nose diving. ( Last thing he needs at the moment is something like Brexit). He won't last 5 years, if nothing else he'll get bored and move on to the next jolly caper.
Don't want to go too far off track, but an FT article I read suggested that internal right-wing Conservative Party criticism of Johnson's handling of the crisis will result in Johnson placating the right-wingers by going hard on Brexit. with the economic repercussions hidden by a CV-19 recession.

Pierre 14-05-2020 23:13
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36035082)
Well he's failed on the first,
How so?

Quote:
and the economy is nose diving.
Yeah, that tends to happen when you remove the workforce.

Mr K 14-05-2020 23:27
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035099)
How so?
.
32,000 and rising, the most deaths in Europe. Hardly a success story.

Pierre 14-05-2020 23:41
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36035101)
32,000 and rising, the most deaths in Europe. Hardly a success story.
Based against what benchmark?

Mr K 14-05-2020 23:56
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035103)
Based against what benchmark?
The Govt were happy to compare themselves to other European countries in a chart in their daily briefings. Until they became top of it and the chart was suddenly dropped. A fact Sir Keir mentioned when he wiped the floor with Bozzo at PMQs again.

Pierre 15-05-2020 00:23
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36035106)
The Govt were happy to compare themselves to other European countries in a chart in their daily briefings. Until they became top of it and the chart was suddenly dropped. A fact Sir Keir mentioned when he wiped the floor with Bozzo at PMQs again.
I didn’t see that, the CMO from the outset said comparisons were not helpful. They did compare themselves and our numbers included care homes whereas others didn’t. So they weren’t scared of showing themselves poorly against others.

They still aren’t as not everyone are using the same metrics.

No one could possibly know what a “good “ outcome for the U.K. would or could have been.

It’s like asking before Dday “how many people do you expect to die on the beach in Normandy? “ and then being critical if the under or over estimate the figure.

Hugh 15-05-2020 01:16
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
The U.K. didn’t include care homes in the deaths total until 29th April, whilst France, Belgium and Ireland reported their figures earlier.

The point is that U.K. Government were happy to report comparisons for a number of weeks, then decided not to.

Pierre 15-05-2020 09:50
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035111)
The U.K. didn’t include care homes in the deaths total until 29th April, whilst France, Belgium and Ireland reported their figures earlier.

The point is that U.K. Government were happy to report comparisons for a number of weeks, then decided not to.
That’s as may be, but it doesn’t address the point of “what Number would Be a good outcome?”

Comparisons and how stats are recorded still differ from country to country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52311014

denphone 15-05-2020 10:18
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035120)
That’s as may be, but it doesn’t address the point of “what Number would Be a good outcome?”

Comparisons and how stats are recorded still differ from country to country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52311014
Sir Patrick Vallance, the government's chief scientific adviser, said 20,000 would be a good outcome , its quite clear that the final figure is sadly going to be well in excess of that.

According to the FT modelling its double that outcome at least.

https://www.ft.com/content/0ed8ea34-...a-7a29447de57b

Mr K 15-05-2020 10:20
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035120)
That’s as may be, but it doesn’t address the point of “what Number would Be a good outcome?”

Comparisons and how stats are recorded still differ from country to country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52311014
There isn't any 'good outcome' from this. However countries that acted quicker with a lockdown and stopped international travel have faired much better than us. The Govt. claimed a couple of month ago that care homes were 'low risk' (!). Our Govts. response has been appalling.

There used to be some talented people in the Tory party , people with experience of Govt and business. But they were got rid of, to make way for Boris and his talentless muppets who only were only interested in Brexit. They weren't interested in any other issue.

denphone 15-05-2020 10:23
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36035122)
Whilst I broadly think that the Guvmin is handling the crisis adequately (now), I dislike all forms of spin, self congratulation and economy with the truth.

I've found in life that the earlier you admit your mistakes, the more you are respected and the sooner people get off your back.

(
l agree one should admit their mistakes as that have a habit of rebounding on the person who made the mistake in the first place.

Hugh 15-05-2020 10:25
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035109)
I didn’t see that, the CMO from the outset said comparisons were not helpful. They did compare themselves and our numbers included care homes whereas others didn’t. So they weren’t scared of showing themselves poorly against others.

They still aren’t as not everyone are using the same metrics.

No one could possibly know what a “good “ outcome for the U.K. would or could have been.

It’s like asking before Dday “how many people do you expect to die on the beach in Normandy? “ and then being critical if the under or over estimate the figure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035111)
The U.K. didn’t include care homes in the deaths total until 29th April, whilst France, Belgium and Ireland reported their figures earlier.

The point is that U.K. Government were happy to report comparisons for a number of weeks, then decided not to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035120)
That’s as may be, but it doesn’t address the point of “what Number would Be a good outcome?”

Comparisons and how stats are recorded still differ from country to country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52311014
Can I recommend that you apply for a position with Dominic Cummings?

Your ability to spin from one subject to the next, ignoring any previous point you may have made, would fit right in with him... ;)

And as Den said, Sir Patrick Vallance, the government's chief scientific adviser, said 20,000 would be a good outcome, so your second point has been addressed as well.

Damien 15-05-2020 10:55
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035120)
That’s as may be, but it doesn’t address the point of “what Number would Be a good outcome?”

Comparisons and how stats are recorded still differ from country to country.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52311014
I think whichever way you look at it we're amongst the higher end of the death rates so in terms of 'keeping deaths down' it won't be seen as a success unless some dramatic change happens from here on out.

Chris 15-05-2020 11:15
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035126)
Can I recommend that you apply for a position with Dominic Cummings?

Your ability to spin from one subject to the next, ignoring any previous point you may have made, would fit right in with him... ;)

And as Den said, Sir Patrick Vallance, the government's chief scientific adviser, said 20,000 would be a good outcome, so your second point has been addressed as well.
The Vallance quote is however lacking context.

It was made on best evidence at the time, but it was made at a specific and quite early stage of the crisis and was not qualified in any way as far as I can see. Did he offer 20,000 as a pinpoint for 'good' beyond which all is 'bad', or is it at the lower, mid or upper range of a scale of 'good'? How far beyond it is 'meh'? At what point do we hit 'truly awful'?

And ultimately, are we more interested in whether it's 20,000 extremely sick people who would have died this year anyway but now have Covid-19 on their death certificate too, or are we interested in an 'excess death' figure that tries to get closer to the actual impact on the size and health of the population?

I'm not trying to obfuscate here; simply pointing out that regardless of who it was who stood up and said '20,000' its value in isolation is strictly limited. And also that cold, dispassionate statistics, collated many months from now, are the only things that can actually give us a good idea how good or bad the government's response was.

Sephiroth 15-05-2020 11:35
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36035131)
The Vallance quote is however lacking context.

It was made on best evidence at the time, but it was made at a specific and quite early stage of the crisis and was not qualified in any way as far as I can see. Did he offer 20,000 as a pinpoint for 'good' beyond which all is 'bad', or is it at the lower, mid or upper range of a scale of 'good'? How far beyond it is 'meh'? At what point do we hit 'truly awful'?

And ultimately, are we more interested in whether it's 20,000 extremely sick people who would have died this year anyway but now have Covid-19 on their death certificate too, or are we interested in an 'excess death' figure that tries to get closer to the actual impact on the size and health of the population?

I'm not trying to obfuscate here; simply pointing out that regardless of who it was who stood up and said '20,000' its value in isolation is strictly limited. And also that cold, dispassionate statistics, collated many months from now, are the only things that can actually give us a good idea how good or bad the government's response was.
Far from obfuscation, your reply is one of the most lucid in this thread - well worth repeating in the Coronavirus thread.

Chris 15-05-2020 11:39
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36035137)
Far from obfuscation, your reply is one of the most lucid in this thread - well worth repeating in the Coronavirus thread.
I actually thought I was in the corona thread :D

I'll copy it over there, and request that this line of discussion doesn't continue in this thread which is meant to be about the performance of the new Labour leader, not general discussion about coronavirus.

OLD BOY 15-05-2020 13:33
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36035011)
I think many people are attracted by his personality and not his political credo. Certainly, even Johnson has had difficulty in deciding what his views on Brexit leading to him writing two opposing opinion pieces on it and selecting the one he felt would maxximise his chances of becoming PM.
Or, in another interpretation, selecting the argument that had the most merit.

Boris wrote two articles so he could judge the credibility of each argument. Typical Boris. Most people, faced with a difficult choice to make, just write a list of advantages and disadvantages of each option. Boris writes full blown articles. There might even be Shakespearean versions! :D

---------- Post added at 12:33 ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36035082)
Well he's failed on the first, and the economy is nose diving. ( Last thing he needs at the moment is something like Brexit). He won't last 5 years, if nothing else he'll get bored and move on to the next jolly caper.
You won't know whether he has failed on the first until this is all over. He's been following advice, and you would be the first to criticise him if he hadn't.

Carth 15-05-2020 13:34
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
something wicked this way comes?

:erm:

:D

OLD BOY 15-05-2020 13:35
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36035106)
The Govt were happy to compare themselves to other European countries in a chart in their daily briefings. Until they became top of it and the chart was suddenly dropped. A fact Sir Keir mentioned when he wiped the floor with Bozzo at PMQs again.
Except he didn't. He appears to have failed to mention the context of that comment. I'm surprised at Sir Kier, being a lawyer and all. The context was set out in the sentence before.

Sounds more like Corbyn tactics to me.

1andrew1 15-05-2020 14:19
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36035155)
Except he didn't. He appears to have failed to mention the context of that comment. I'm surprised at Sir Kier, being a lawyer and all. The context was set out in the sentence before.

Sounds more like Corbyn tactics to me.
I'm confused, the chart comparing the UK to other countries was dropped. What other context is there?

OLD BOY 15-05-2020 15:00
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36035098)
Don't want to go too far off track, but an FT article I read suggested that internal right-wing Conservative Party criticism of Johnson's handling of the crisis will result in Johnson placating the right-wingers by going hard on Brexit. with the economic repercussions hidden by a CV-19 recession.
Economic repercussions! What these measures have guaranteed is that we will have a huge deficit and major problems with the economy with the size of the debt we have to pay back - nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit. Also, the longer this lockdown goes on, the more companies will collapse, taking away jobs forever.

It's a pity this has muddied the waters, because I was looking forward to getting undeniable proof that Brexit was good for the economy. I guess we may now have an uphill struggle to prove that, but I am confident that being outside the EU will help us to build back rather faster than would otherwise have been the case.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36035128)
I think whichever way you look at it we're amongst the higher end of the death rates so in terms of 'keeping deaths down' it won't be seen as a success unless some dramatic change happens from here on out.
Boris made very clear in the early days that you could only slow down the course of this virus. It cannot be stopped without a vaccine or a total lock down over many months - even years. Somehow, the population seems to be running away with the idea that we are avoiding more deaths altogether. We are not.

Watch what happens in other countries as measures are eased.

---------- Post added at 14:00 ---------- Previous post was at 13:54 ----------

Getting back to the subject of this thread (sorry, Chris, just read your request to get back on topic), I will be very interested in seeing just how supportive he is going to be in working out how to get the country back on its feet. He could play a useful role in getting the co-operation of the teachers in re-opening the schools.

jfman 17-05-2020 02:41
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
An utterly laughable notion that a Labour leader should play a useful role in the workers risking their lives in the absence of adequate safety measures or controls. However, there's a thread for that one so I'll move onto the Rt. Hon. Sir Keir here...

Finding himself a bit conflicted. He wants a 4 nation approach at the same time as "radical federalism". Pick a side, eh?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52683789

First point being that what's appropriate for one nation, or indeed region, may not be appropriate for another. A point noted by the Government.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-h...-new-analysis/

Labour won't solve their Scotland problem with pushing '4 nation' thinking against the evidence available. If they can't solve their Scotland problem, then efforts solving their north of England are an irrelevance.

papa smurf 17-05-2020 09:01
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36035372)
An utterly laughable notion that a Labour leader should play a useful role in the workers risking their lives in the absence of adequate safety measures or controls. However, there's a thread for that one so I'll move onto the Rt. Hon. Sir Keir here...

Finding himself a bit conflicted. He wants a 4 nation approach at the same time as "radical federalism". Pick a side, eh?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-52683789

First point being that what's appropriate for one nation, or indeed region, may not be appropriate for another. A point noted by the Government.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-h...-new-analysis/

Labour won't solve their Scotland problem with pushing '4 nation' thinking against the evidence available. If they can't solve their Scotland problem, then efforts solving their north of England are an irrelevance.
Yes utterly laughable that a labour leader would support labour voters working for a living especially when they are being paid to sit at home and do nothing

Hugh 17-05-2020 09:37
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36035376)
Yes utterly laughable that a labour leader would support labour voters working for a living especially when they are being paid to sit at home and do nothing
i thought they had mostly voted Tory at the last election?

jfman 17-05-2020 09:44
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36035376)
Yes utterly laughable that a labour leader would support labour voters working for a living especially when they are being paid to sit at home and do nothing
Yes, the key word there being living not dying.

papa smurf 17-05-2020 09:49
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035377)
i thought they had mostly voted Tory at the last election?
The core voters still vote labour.

Hugh 17-05-2020 15:50
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36035380)
The core voters still vote labour.
Perhaps he is doing what he believes is best for the country, all voters, and not just Labour voters?

papa smurf 17-05-2020 15:56
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035441)
Perhaps he is doing what he believes is best for the country, all voters, and not just Labour voters?
You sound like you've gone over to the dark side comrade.

Hugh 17-05-2020 16:06
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36035443)
You sound like you've gone over to the dark side comrade.
I would want that from the leader of any party, so not sure what you mean...

papa smurf 17-05-2020 16:29
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035446)
I would want that from the leader of any party, so not sure what you mean...
I think you know exactly what i mean,but to make it easy i'll ask the question.Are you now a labour supporter?

Hugh 17-05-2020 17:55
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36035449)
I think you know exactly what i mean,but to make it easy i'll ask the question.Are you now a labour supporter?
No, and never have been, Senator McCarthy...

papa smurf 17-05-2020 18:09
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035459)
No, and never have been, Senator McCarthy...
Good
Carry on that man ;)

Hugh 17-05-2020 19:06
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36035461)
Good
Carry on that man ;)
However, you may change my mind... ;)

papa smurf 17-05-2020 19:07
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36035467)
However, you may change my mind... ;)
Well i am quite good at simple tasks;)

jfman 17-05-2020 20:01
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Could be an interesting turn of events for the forum if we get to dismiss points made out of hand by simply saying 'ah, but you voted for them'.

denphone 17-05-2020 20:05
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36035478)
Could be an interesting turn of events for the forum if we get to dismiss points made out of hand by simply saying 'ah, but you voted for them'.
People can vote for the Official Monster Raving Loony Party if that is their sincere wish as whoever one votes for they should not be denigrated or demonised just because others disagree wholly with their differing political views.

Pierre 17-05-2020 20:19
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36035480)
People can vote for the Official Monster Raving Loony Party if that is their sincere wish as whoever one votes for they should not be denigrated or demonised just because others disagree wholly with their differing political views.
Well Corbyn did make it the official party of the raving loon.

Mr K 17-05-2020 20:37
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Why don't we just merge the Corbyn and Starmer threads and call it 'Sh*te' can we throw at anybody that dares to oppose our wonderful Govt' ;)

jfman 17-05-2020 20:46
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36035487)
Why don't we just merge the Corbyn and Starmer threads and call it 'Sh*te' can we throw at anybody that dares to oppose our wonderful Govt' ;)
You mean the wonderful Government. The way you have phrased it implies other countries might have wonderful governments, but that's obviously not true. Not as good as ours.

Pierre 17-05-2020 21:00
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36035487)
Why don't we just merge the Corbyn and Starmer threads and call it 'Sh*te' can we throw at anybody that dares to oppose our wonderful Govt' ;)
Awww you feeling hard done to little fella? It’s just balance for all the hatred you throw at anyone that may be doing better than you in life.

jfman 17-05-2020 21:03
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035491)
Awww you feeling hard done to little fella? It’s just balance for all the hatred you throw at anyone that may be doing better than you in life.
At least that's acknowledging it's both political and personal against Mr K, and nothing to do with objective reality.

Hugh 17-05-2020 21:24
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36035468)
Well i am quite good at simple tasks;)
I can believe that... ;)

ianch99 17-05-2020 23:26
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
<Your not a Mod>

Maggy 18-05-2020 00:06
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
How about we stop the stupid asinine side swipes and childishness and actually debate like adults?

denphone 19-05-2020 19:58
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Labour has cancelled its annual party conference.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...virus-pandemic

One would expect the other political parties to follow suit given the unprecedented circumstances this year.

jfman 19-05-2020 20:00
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36035734)
Labour has cancelled its annual party conference.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...virus-pandemic

One would expect the other political parties to follow suit given the unprecedented circumstances this year.
Pubs will still be closed then so what's the point? :D

papa smurf 19-05-2020 20:01
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36035734)
Labour has cancelled its annual party conference.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/ar...virus-pandemic

One would expect the other political parties to follow suit given the unprecedented circumstances this year.
A Pointless act when large gatherings are banned.

denphone 19-05-2020 20:03
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36035735)
Pubs will still be closed then so what's the point? :D
That is one good reason l will grant you.:D

Pierre 19-05-2020 20:22
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36035736)
A Pointless act when large gatherings are banned.
Pointless act at any time.

jfman 19-05-2020 20:26
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36035738)
Pointless act at any time.
The irony!

Maggy 20-05-2020 00:06
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Topic?Debate?Adult?

ianch99 03-06-2020 17:18
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Another good outing for Starmer in today's PMQ's. Johnson was clearly rattled (again) ...

daveeb 03-06-2020 17:32
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36038212)
Another good outing for Starmer in today's PMQ's. Johnson was clearly rattled (again) ...
Very mean of him to be questioning Bojo's proud covid response record.

denphone 03-06-2020 17:43
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeb (Post 36038215)
Very mean of him to be questioning Bojo's proud covid response record.
Its called scrutiny...;)

ianch99 03-06-2020 18:01
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36038217)
Its called scrutiny...;)
Correct .. for a long time missing from PMQ's.

Starmer's timing is so good here: his request for Johnson to "get a grip" coincides with the Tory press reporting frankly bizarre claims:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EZkNxtiX...jpg&name=small

Who the hell was in charge before! :)

daveeb 03-06-2020 19:50
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 36038218)
Correct .. for a long time missing from PMQ's.

Starmer's timing is so good here: his request for Johnson to "get a grip" coincides with the Tory press reporting frankly bizarre claims:

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Who the hell was in charge before! :)
I think we know the answer to that ! A bit of a short sighted approach you could say.

1andrew1 03-06-2020 20:51
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveeb (Post 36038224)
I think we know the answer to that ! A bit of a short sighted approach you could say.
Lol. :D:D:D

Last week's approval ratings:
Sir Keir +20 points (plus twenty)
BoJo -1 (minus one)
Source: Pollsters Redfield and Wilton Strategies

Mr K 03-06-2020 21:34
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Even the Torygraph is disparaging on Bozza's performance.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...son-forgotten/
Quote:
Traditionally speaking, an Opposition tends to oppose. It scrutinises the Government. Criticises it. Asks it difficult questions. It would be considered highly unorthodox for a Leader of the Opposition to stand up in the Commons and say, “Mr Speaker, I cannot help but observe that the Prime Minister is wearing an especially stylish pair of cufflinks. For the benefit on an admiring nation, could he enlighten us as to where we may purchase such a pair ourselves?”

The next time Boris Johnson prepares for PMQs, it might be worth his while taking this into account. Because today in the Commons, Sir Keir Starmer asked six questions about the Government’s handling of the pandemic. And in response, the Prime Minister seemed to grow more and more put out by the minute.

His voice grew louder and faster, and his manner more irate. With his index finger he stabbed at the despatch box, stab-stab-stab-stab-stab – like an indignant hotel guest, jabbing at the bell on an unmanned reception desk. Judging by his tone – hurt, aggrieved, and even bewildered – he seemed to view Sir Keir’s insistence on questioning him as an unexpected and uncalled-for impertinence.

In his first reply Mr Johnson demanded Sir Keir show him “more signs of cooperation” (to which Sir Keir responded that he’d written to Mr Johnson two weeks earlier, offering his cooperation on schools – and had not heard back). In his second reply Mr Johnson accused Sir Keir of trying to “distract the public” (he didn’t say how). In his third he accused Sir Keir of “casting aspersions” on the people who set up the Government’s track-and-trace system. (Strictly speaking, if Sir Keir was casting aspersions on anyone, it was Mr Johnson, for launching the system before Sir Keir believed it was ready.)

In his fourth reply, Mr Johnson protested that he “really [did] not see the purpose” of Sir Keir’s “endless attacks”. And when Sir Keir asked him why he was easing lockdown with the alert level at four (after pledging only to ease it once the alert level had dropped to three), the Prime Minister almost exploded. “He knows perfectly well that the alert level does allow it!” he blared.

For good measure, he then twice accused Sir Keir of performing “a U-turn”. Unfortunately, this approach was somewhat undermined by his final reply, in which he appeared to perform a U-turn himself – by insisting that, under the controversial new voting system, MPs unable to attend Parliament in person would be permitted to vote by proxy. This concession had not appeared in the motion the Government put to the Commons on Tuesday.

On the whole, the depth of Mr Johnson’s displeasure seemed surprising – not least because Sir Keir had hardly attacked him at all. He hadn’t mocked or insulted him, and his questions were delivered calmly. “Mr Speaker,” he said, “the Prime Minister is confusing scrutiny with attacks.”

In Mr Johnson’s defence, however, you can see how this confusion may have arisen. The Opposition has been AWOL for so long, the Prime Minister may simply have forgotten what its job is.
(What's also interesting is that i seerm to have full access to the Torygraph on my phone app, I don't subscribe, lucky me ! It's good for sport anyway ;) )

Sephiroth 03-06-2020 21:46
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36038241)
Even the Torygraph is disparaging on Bozza's performance.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...son-forgotten/


(What's also interesting is that i seerm to have full access to the Torygraph on my phone app, I don't subscribe, lucky me ! It's good for sport anyway ;) )
The writer of that article is Michael Deacon and he always goes for a jugular on events in Parliament. He is not the Torygraph but a beautifully cynical observer. I am an avid follower.

Btw, Deacon is one of James O'Brian's favourites.

Mr K 03-06-2020 22:07
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36038245)
The writer of that article is Michael Deacon and he always goes for a jugular on events in Parliament. He is not the Torygraph but a beautifully cynical observer. I am an avid follower.

Btw, Deacon is one of James O'Brian's favourites.
I like the reader comments. They really love him ! ;)

1andrew1 03-06-2020 23:14
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36038245)
The writer of that article is Michael Deacon and he always goes for a jugular on events in Parliament. He is not the Torygraph but a beautifully cynical observer. I am an avid follower.

Btw, Deacon is one of James O'Brian's favourites.
Deacon seems to have nailed PMQ there. ;) However, I appreciate that BoJo may have got a bit complacent for a while with Jezza in opposition but he needs to raise his game.
Did you pay for Mr K's Telegraph subscription, Seph? ;)

Sephiroth 03-06-2020 23:29
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36038266)
Deacon seems to have nailed PMQ there. ;) However, I appreciate that BoJo may have got a bit complacent for a while with Jezza in opposition but he needs to raise his game.
Did you pay for Mr K's Telegraph subscription, Seph? ;)
A beautiful mystery, Andrew.

Maggy 04-06-2020 13:40
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Although I'm no longer sure what the topic is anymore I'm pretty certain it's not about Covid 19.

Admin Insert(Mick): All Covid related discussion moved to the relevant thread.

1andrew1 13-06-2020 18:34
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Sir Keir's centre ground approach seems to be paying off.
Quote:
Sir Keir Starmer the most popular opposition leader since Tony Blair, poll finds
Sir Keir Starmer is the most popular leader of the opposition since Tony Blair, according to a new poll.
Two months into the role, the new Labour leader is matching the performance of Mr Blair in the 1990s, the data from Ipsos Mori found.
Mr Blair became leader of the opposition in 1994 and went on to win a landslide victory in the 1997 general election...
But whilst the poll will be encouraging for Labour, Boris Johnson is still viewed as a more capable leader of the country than Sir Keir, by 43% to 38%.
The Conservatives also maintain a slight leader over Labour.
https://news.sky.com/story/sir-keir-...finds-12005452

pip08456 13-06-2020 19:58
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Blair was such a good leader he took us into an unjust war, can we expect Karmer to do the same?

peanut 13-06-2020 20:00
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36039690)
Blair was such a good leader he took us into an unjust war, can we expect Karmer to do the same?
Eh?

pip08456 13-06-2020 20:02
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36039691)
Eh?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7122361.html

peanut 13-06-2020 20:04
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36039692)
What's that got to do with Keir Starmer?

pip08456 13-06-2020 20:14
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by peanut (Post 36039693)
What's that got to do with Keir Starmer?
What part of "can we expect Karmer to do the same? " don't you understand?

peanut 13-06-2020 20:16
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36039694)
What part of "can we expect Karmer to do the same? " don't you understand?
I understood fully, just not sure why the need to compare. Basically you can't help yourself is the gist of it. Very stange.

pip08456 13-06-2020 20:20
Re: Sir Keir Starmer elected as new Labour leader
 
Anderws quote reveals a comparison. "Most popular since" is a comparison.


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