Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Yes, but Whites make up 550% times the population than Blacks/African-Americans, but executed only 50% more than Blacks/African-Americans, and are at equal numbers on Death Row.

So if you have a population of 100%

Population % on Death Row % Executed
W73%..............43%...................56%
B 13%..............42%...................35%

This shows the weighting of Black/African Americans on Death Row or executed.

And your point about the race of the victims - the percentages almost match the US population percentages, whilst the figures executed or on Death Row are skewed towards Blacks/African-Americans.

Population Victims
73%............76%
13%............15%

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

I don't agree with this percentages malarkey.

If you have 23 Apples collected in 2017. 13 Are Green, 8 are red and 2 are just rotten to the core.

This argument about more Blacks vs Whites being executed is like saying there is more red apples collected.

The reality is.... You still have more Green apples, in the basket that have been collected.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

:confused:

The percentages matter if you're looking into if something is over-represented or not.

If you don't agree with that then nothing matters. You could make all sorts of irrelevant statements. Find the smallest country in the world and say they have the best cancer care because fewer people die of cancer there than in China. It's why GDP is not measured in absolute terms irrespective of anyone's personal opinion on 'percentages'.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

I am not looking at representations, because they are irrelevant.

It cannot be said 'more blacks are executed than whites' because the actual numbers speak for themselves, using percentages is trying to obscure the facts.

Using percentages is like shoving all blacks and all whites into one room, but not all whites and not all blacks are criminals.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The percentages show black people are more likely to be given the death penalty. Both in terms of their representation in the population and those who go in trial.

If you want to use absolute numbers then fine but I don't see what use that is for a comparison.

To use an 'example' as with the apples:

If there is a penalty shootout and I have 10 chances scoring 6 of them and you have 5 chances scoring all 5 of them. Am I better because I scored more?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Because those are the facts.

8 is lower than 13.

8 Blacks Executed is not more than 13 Whites Executed in 2017.

8 Red apples collected is not more than 13 Green apples collected.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Are you even going to engage with the point?[COLOR="Silver"]

I accept that more white people are executed than black people.

But do you accept that relative to their population size black people are overrepresented in the statistics? That a black person seems to be more likely to receive the death penalty than a white person. Because those are also the facts.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

I cannot engage with any such point when it does not make sense or is disingenuous.

'More likely' is a chance factor and we are not dealing with chance factors or representations.

The same representations were made after Brexit when remainers claim the Brexit decision was not the will of the British people because they say only 37% or so of the population actually voted in the referendum, well that's a disingenuous assertion because not every person in the UK was eligible to vote and or chose not to vote, the same applies here, the US population of Blacks, Whites and Hispanics are not all criminals convicted and sentenced to death.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

How is adjusting for population size disingenuous? We do it all the time. When we compare death rates in cities we adjust it for the size of the city. When we compare cancer survival rates we adjust it for population size. When we compare crime rates between years we do it as incidence in 100,000 etc etc

For what's it worth it doesn't tell the whole story. I agree. But the question is to then look into why this seeming imbalance exists rather than pretend it doesn't.

That's not the same thing. The only thing it shares is the use of a percentage as a measurement. You're not comparing anything in that. Do you just distrust percentages as a concept?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Dear me Mick, think you're trying to out trump Trump with your twisting of figures :D

If you were poor and black in the US, you are more likely to be executed for the same crime than if you are rich and white. Their legal system discriminates against the poor, and discrimination is still widespread, encouraged by Trump and his Klu Klux Klan/ evangelical followers. You may love to live in the US (as an aside, why don't you if you love it so much ??) ; Personally I'm delighted I don't live there, and have to worry if my kids are at risk of getting shot each day.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

No you dont.

That would be assuming that all crime is equally spread across all races, there is no proof of that (unless you have some somewhere).

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

True but that's why you then try to compare it those convicted of murder. Then, if possible, you get more in-depth to try and make sure the crimes at the same. This kind of thing is what Hugh posted to earlier.

It's all more useful than comparing direct numbers without any context or relevance. As I said it's about as useful as saying London is more dangerous than Glasgow as more crimes are committed there, without trying to adjust for the size of the city..

---------- Post added at 19:35 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------

I just went though the thread to see where it started and Chris already posted a better way to explain it:

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Trump has disavowed the Klu Klux Klan, many many times, so they are not his. So you’re wrong here. You really do need to stop being so ludicrous all the time, posting baseless rubbish in nearly every thread.

And No, the sentencing does not discriminate, as has been proven by the figures of more whites being executed than blacks over the years. I don’t work on ‘more likely chances’, as that is obscuring the facts.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Let's try and look at an example this way.
Bus company A runs 50 routes and 40 of its buses regularly run on time. Bus company B runs 39 routes and all 39 of its buses regularly run on time.
If you had a choice of catching a bus from either company at the same time to the same destination, which would you chose? The bus company that had more buses on time (company A) or company B that had 100% of its buses on time?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

No sorry, I stand by my post, given the facts of the figures. More blacks are not executed over whites.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Nobodys said that. Look up 'proportions' in the dictionary. It's probably in the GCSE syllabus too.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

There are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
You can pretty much spin numbers anyway you want to "prove" something.

The only undesputed fact is that more white people are executed in the US than black.

Anything else is just speculation and guesswork - trying to start comparing it as percentages of this or that is just nonsense.

You may as well say it equals the percentage of people who eat marmite, so that must be the cause.

Crime rates are not equally spread across races, nor are they equally spread across the US - many states dont do executions at all.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Then what's the point in anything? Cancer survival rates, GDP measurements, crime rates in cities, rates of literacy in countries, effectiveness of medical treatments and so on. This kind of statistical analysis is all over the place. They all have the problem that raw numbers aren't useful, adjustments have to be made and that in the end there will often be ambiguity into what the results then tell us.

This is a massive part of mathematics and statistics. It's not even a contested science, as K said the basics of it are taught at GCSE level.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Who are you calling Ken? :D

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Percentages are the only way you can identify statistical trends across different-sized samples. There’s no nonsense or trickery involved :confused:

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Yes nothing quite like facts and you've pointed out another exceptional way of telling how biased the system is, were the perpetrators sentenced the same for similar crimes if their victim was white or black

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

This is not different sized samples, or even multiple samples, just a single set of actual counts, with nothing sensible to compare them against.

There is no way (from the figures) to know this, as again, its just a single set of counts, nothing more known about them.

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

Still, if you like comparisons, here are a few for you, from the CPRC ;

https://crimeresearch.org/2014/05/is...rticular-race/


Also, some more on the subject of mass killings in the US v Europe ;

https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/co...us-and-europe/

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

A few things about the crimeresearch.org link...

John Lott, their chairman, is a guns rights advocate. One of the Board of Directors is (ex-)Sheriff David Clarke, who featured in a bunch of radio ads saying people couldn't depend on the police and should arm themselves, made an ad for the NRA, and who went to Moscow on a NRA-funded trip. Brad Thor, another director, speaks at Tea Party rallies and used to drive Andrew Breitbart to Tea Party rallies; Ted Nugent is on the Board of Directors of the NRA.

Their views may not be particularly unbiased.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Only glanced at it but their comparisons of gun sprees uses 'England' for some reason and was compiled by 'searching news reports' (but they are rightly adjusting for population size ;) )

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

From the site you were originally quoting from

Sister Helen Prejean, CSJ In the late 1980s, Congress asked the General Accounting Office (GAO) to review the empirical studies on race and the death penalty which had been conducted up to that time. The agency reviewed 28 studies regarding both race of defendant and race of victim discrimination. Their review included studies utilizing various methodologies and degrees of statistical sophistication and examined such diverse states as California, Florida, Georgia, Illinois, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Jersey, and Texas. Their conclusion in 1990, based on the vast amount of data collected, was unequivocal:

In 82% of the studies, race of victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving a death sentence, i.e., those who murdered whites were found to be more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks. This finding was remarkably consistent across data sets, states, data collection methods, and analytic techniques. The finding held for high, medium, and low quality studies.16

And

In a recent report prepared for the American Bar Association, Professors Baldus and Woodworth have expanded on the GAO's review of studies on race discrimination in capital cases.21 They found that there are some relevant data in three-quarters of the states with prisoners on death row. In 93% of those states, there is evidence of race-of-victim disparities, i.e., the white race of the person murdered correlated with whether a death sentence will be given in a particular case. In nearly half of those states, the race of the defendant also served as a predictor of who received a death sentence. The disparities in nine states (CA, CO, GA, KY, MS, NJ, NC, PA and SC) are particularly notable because of their reliance on well-controlled studies.

These disparities reveal a disturbing and consistent trend indicating race-of-victim discrimination. For example, in Florida, a defendant's odds of receiving a death sentence are 4.8 times higher if the victim was white than if the victim is black in similarly aggravated cases. In Illinois, the multiplier is 4, in Oklahoma it is 4.3, in North Carolina 4.4, and in Mississippi it is 5.5.22 The table below shows how frequently race-of-victim discrimination has been detected, as well as the states where race-of-defendant disparities have been shown

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Wow, we have gone far and wide from not only the topic but the statement of More blacks being executed than whites, which just isn't true as per the numbers of more White criminals executed over the last few decades.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

No one has said that more blacks are executed than whites so on that we can all agree. ;)
What I believe has been said without reading every post again is that a higher percentage of the black population is executed than the white population.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

I believe we have gotten quite a way off topic..

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Agreed, we have.
We clearly are not going to agree on this, so I think its time this got back to the topic.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Shocking, I hope the party steps up and expels him. :td:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8232721.html

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Seems legit...

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...0&d=1519848735

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Should be interesting to see the reaction to this Trump statement.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...process-second

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Let's see what actually happens. My first thought is that it's just talk and even if it weren't it's almost certainly unconstitutional to give anyone the power to confiscate legally owned guns without due process.

However it's promising if something does happen.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The NRA didnt kill anyone.

I dont really see why people are suprised they defend the ownership of guns, that is one of their purposes.

Its a bit like attacking the AA or RAC for defending peoples right to own a car.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

People attack the NRA because they actively opposing meaningful legislation on guns. If you set yourself up as the opposition then people will oppose you in turn.

It doesn't help how aggressive the NRA are either. The AA will oppose fuel duty raises and the like but they think drivers who've had licences revoked should have them reinstated. The idea to arm teaches has been a pet project of the NRA for years purely because more it further embeds the concept of gun ownership as a means of protection against other guns.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

It also helps sell more guns...

As the old saying goes - “it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun, said the person trying to sell two guns."

---------- Post added at 17:18 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------

If the RAC or the AA lobbied the government to lessen safety features on cars, or to allow people to drive cars without a licence or insurance, I would attack the RAC or the AA.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

So are the NRA lobbying for less restrictions, or simply opposing more ?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Cripes, wouldn't want to meet you on a dark night :shocked:

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The NRA is lobbying for fewer restrictions.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

BREAKING: GOP lawmakers in Georgia, pass bill denying tax break for Delta Air Lines after the company cut ties with National Rifle Association. Source: Associated Press.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7979776.html In 1986, the NRA lobbied for the Firearms Owners' Protection Act, which, amongst many other things, repeals certain recordkeeping requirements for the sale of ammunition, revised the prohibition against the sale of firearms or ammunition to certain categories of individuals by including (allowing them to buy) as additional categories illegal aliens, dishonorably discharged members of the armed forces, and U.S. citizens who renounce their citizenship. It also declared that a licensed dealer's personal collection of firearms shall not be subject to recordkeeping requirements in specified circumstances. It permitted licensed importers, manufacturers, and dealers to conduct business at temporary locations other than the one specified on a license (for example, gun shows, where they wouldn’t have to keep a record of who they sold to). It amended the rulemaking authority of the Secretary to provide that no regulation may require: (1) the transfer of records required under this Act to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State; or (2) the establishment of any system of registration of firearms, firearm owners, or firearm transactions (no record keeping centrally). It allowed the interstate transportation of unloaded firearms by any person not prohibited by Federal law from such transportation regardless of any State law or regulation.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a8088021.html http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-las...htmlstory.html http://www.businessinsider.com/state...ol-2013-4?IR=T In 2005 President Bush signed into law the NRA-backed Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act which prevent firearms manufacturers and dealers from being held liable for negligence when crimes have been committed with their products.

In 2009 the NRA again filed suit in the city of San Francisco challenging the city's ban of guns in public housing.

http://theconversation.com/why-is-th...answered-92163

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

https://apnews.com/amp/6636dea2893a4...mpression=true

A 13 year old had unsupervised access to a semiautomatic rifle and ammunition - words fail me.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

If these kids are depressed, want to make a name for themselves, and 'show everybody' unfortunately they can easily do it in that bonkers country.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

I wonder if the NRA will call for a boycott of Walmart?

https://news.walmart.com/2018/02/28/...irearms-policy

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Maybe if bullying in schools was addressed these revenge shootings would end .

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Not the sole cause of depression so no.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The problem is that the personal right to defend liberty via lethal force is so prominent in the American psyche, and the definition of liberty is rather broad.*

It is entirely possible for a society to maintain relatively high rates of personal gun ownership without resorting to regular bouts of mass slaughter - Switzerland manages it, but then in Switzerland they’ve all had military training and they have a different view of themselves as a people.

America’s problem is the lethal mix of modern automatic and semi-auto firearms combined with a Wild West pioneer mentality, reinforced by a constitutional document almost all of them seem to revere as a near-religious text.

Unpicking all of that is the work of generations, and must be done one small step at a time. Sadly, a lot more kids are going to die in the meantime.

* Any country that permits the personal ownership of heavy calibre machine guns, under any circumstances, is defining ‘liberty’ very loosely indeed, IMO

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

On the other hand they ban Kinder eggs in case children eat the toy inside. :erm:

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

That'd really just protectionism as Kinder eggs are imported - safety and national security interest are usually used as reasons for non-tariff protectionism.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Meanwhile, "worshippers wearing crowns and clutching AR-15 rifles drank holy wine and exchanged or renewed wedding vows in a commitment ceremony at a Pennsylvania church, prompting a nearby school to cancel classes."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...s-church-video

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Reminds me of a certain Star Trek episode plot..:D

I guess it's down to a younger generation realising that they don't have to be brain washed by previous generations.Well that's my hope.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Well, even we haven’t put an end to bullying!

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Sadly another shooting by a teenager, just grateful only two people killed.
https://news.sky.com/story/shots-fir...ports-11273129

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The two he killed was his mother and father. (Not at all saying this was still okay).

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Sadly that seems to be a domestic incident, common in all countries.
If they didnt have a gun they would likely have used a knife, as often happens in the UK.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Yep, people flip out all the time, but when they don’t have access to firearms they generally do less damage.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

An understandable but strange response.

https://twitter.com/RealSaavedra/sta...741568/video/1

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

and what is that link to ?

Please dont just post links, post some details as well.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

2 SWAT team members suspended for attending and entering the building without permission.

Understandable in that dispatch need to know where they are but does it mean in the future it's like being back at school?

"Please Sir/Miss there's a school shooting happening and students are being shot. Can I go? Please? I'd really like to put a stop to it."

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

No surprise but Florida Prosecutors have today seeked the Death Penalty for Nikolas Cruz for the shooting deaths of 17 Students at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Not sure state sanctioned murder is the cure ,and it most certainly won't bring any one back.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The fact these atrocities and shootings keep happening in that country prove the death penalty is useless.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

No it doesnt.

People still drink drive, should we stop banning them from driving, as its clearly useless, and doesnt work. :dozey:

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-wa...mpression=true
Secession - that ended well for them the last time they tried that...

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

They are not the only state that is prepared to take drastic action if gun control proceeds much further but it's a symptom of a larger issue that's happening in the states where rural people feel overwhelmed by the urban population. It would take a politically suicidal president that attempted any watering down of the 2nd amendment and as soon as lots of dead americans showed up on the news support would quickly evaporate as there is a very large group within the firearms community there who would rather fight and die then surrender their firearms.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

No one is saying give up their arms, just have them well regulated - licenced, insured, and kept safely and securely; that is the NRA "all or nothing" argument, except they don't apply it to bazookas or grenade launchers.

For instance, civilians can buy a 150 round drum magazine for an AR-15 - this is just insane.

Anyway, States can't just pass a local law saying they are seceding - they would have to amend the US Constitution (as there is nothing in there about States leaving, only joining), and amending the Constitution requires approval of the amendment by either
1) two-thirds of each branch of Congress or
2) two-thirds of states at a specially-formed constitutional convention, with the amendment then being ratified by three-quarters of the states.

This is difficult enough that it has been done only 17 times in 227 years, excluding the passage of the Bill of Rights shortly after the Constitution itself was ratified.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Actually Hugh at a recent meeting a gun control advocate let slip that if given an inch (banning of the bumpfire stock) they would take a mile and go for total gun ban their agenda has been well known for sometime. As for seceding from the united states they are the latest but not the only ones to be considering it so they must think it can be done if necessary and they would know better then you or me. What's seen as nuts here is the norm there and I'm sure there are things about the UK that some americans think is nuts it's an american issue and we don't have to agree just respect their wishes and they respect ours.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Any links to that ‘slip’? Once again, that is NRA fear-mongering - remember Obama taking away all the guns and putting gun owners in FEMA camps? Me neither, as it didn’t happen...

Re ‘respect their wishes’, that’s why they leave a legal framework, Constitution, and Judiciary - people (be they States, cities, groups, or individuals) can’t just say stuff and expect it to be so, such as ‘we’re going to secede if you do something we don’t like’; if that is a valid premise, what’s to stop Cities leaving States?

I’m sure a lot of Americans think our NHS is a Socialist single-payer conspiracy, but I can live with that, rather than being one of the 600k who get bankrupted each year by medical bills (in the USA).

Update.
tbf, Republicans in SC have form for this sort of thing (putting forward Bills that have no chance - they have recently put foward SC H3473 Amusing, coming from a State that receives 8 times the amount of money from the US Governnment than it pays in Federal Taxes.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

https://youtu.be/MKVi8H1AQGs That's the only clip i can find of it about 3 minutes in the clip starts, it has been taken down from the march for lives website which was where i first watched it they clearly didn't want to advertise their agenda. This was nothing to do with the NRA at all and given the recent behaviour of the NRA they are very far from the gun rights powerhouse many here believe even ignoring that historically the NRA has been responsible for two of the biggest gun control legislative measures.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/04/06...dge-rules.html

How many other states will follow?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Washington DC, California, New Jersey, Connecticut, Hawaii, Maryland, and New York (as well as Mass.) already ban assault weapons - here’s hoping others follow.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Very few others will follow as lines are getting drawn and the majority of states are happy with things as they are and have no interest in further gun control. It's not just a gun control issue firearms and associated industries are a multi billion dollar industry of skilled employee's what happens to them if the democrat city dwellers get their way.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

"get their way" - what, you mean being a gun being treated equally as another tool, the car - registered, insured, and tested?

Such a blow to individual freedoms...:erm:

If they can have assault weapons, why can't they have grenade launchers and bazookas?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Thats what I keep asking my local police force, but they wont let me have a bazooka, or grenade launcher.

I'm not seeing where this random question comes from, but apparently you are allowed to own grenade launchers and bazookas in the US (at least in some states).

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Hopefully matters like controlling assault weapons more robustly won't become a simple Republican v Democrat debate.
In terms of employees, Smith & Wesson employs about 1,800 in total whereas a company like GM employs 180,000. So it's more about protecting the profits for the shareholders and sales outlets and less about protecting skilled manufacturing jobs.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Well unfortunately it is more the democrats that want gun bans and the republicans who usually support the 2nd amendment so it is a republicans versus democrats issue. Most americans have no interest in owning grenade launchers or bazookas but want to own any semi auto they want though yes there are states where you can own them. If firearms were a constantly negative thing no one would support them but in the U.S they are not and there are more incidents of them saving lives such as house break ins and citizens supporting police officers in some cases saving the life of a police officer but that side rarely gets mentioned on the news in the U.S let alone here but it happens and that's why it's not the black and white issue for americans as it is for foreigners.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

How would you measure that?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

It's also geography and ecology. If you live somewhere where a large, heavily armoured reptile could invade your living space and threaten you, your family, your livestock you want the appropriate tools to deal with it. The same can be said for the mobile fur coats living in other areas.

These districts often tend to be sparsely populated with more difficult travel conditions. Assistance can take some time to arrive and you may not be particularly skilled in operating firearms - you need help to hit what you need to hit.

Guns of any type are a tool and it's not restricting types of tool people can get that needs most attention but the types of people who are allowed to get the tool, and maybe where they are allowed to be taken. Certainly you can do less damage with a single pistol than an array of assault weapons but that doesn't help if it's your child/wife/parent that is the one person killed before the assailant is dealt with.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Totally agree - a gun is just a tool that is for a specific task, just like a car/motorbike is a tool for another task.

So, ensure people are adequately trained in how to use the tool, have to register the tool, and have insurance in case something goes wrong.

I am still in contact with US Army and Air Force people I served with, and they were trained to use and respect weapons, not treat them as toys - they have gun safes, carry out safe procedures when using the weapons, and they despair when they hear about ‘accidental discharges’ of guns; as far as they are concerned, there are no ‘accidental duscharges’, only user negligence and carelessness. They would never leave a gun where a child could access it, or point a gun at someone ‘in fun’ - it’s not how they (and I) were trained.

btw, shoot a 500 pound bear with an AR-15, and you’d just make him angry- you need a bigger calibre to stop one of those. It’s the same for home defence- use an AR-15 indoors, and just hope you don’t hit anyone else in the house after firing 30 rounds through the internal walls; weapon of choice is a shotgun or reasonable calibre hand gun.

Back to the initial premise - use the right tool for the job.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The NRA brigade and it's members really are mocking this London murders being higher than New York and attributing it to banning guns and any other weapon, they firmly believe in the right to bear arms, is a pure birth right to them.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

"In a well regulated Militia"

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Another reason why the reporting on the London 'crime wave' has been irresponsible. New York had more violent crime last year and more crime so far this year too.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

It’s interesting to note that Florida Governor, Rick Scott has announced he is attempting to run for the Senate. Rick Scott is the one who called for age limit of 21 to purchase a gun, in the immediate aftermath of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas School Massacre.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

I'll correct myself here. The 2nd amendment states

Unfortunately the wording is ambiguous and has different interpretations.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Don't Democrats support the Second Amendment as well?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The problem with Guns in the US is, IMO, the NRA. Not only does it seem they are actively promoting the sale of guns, but it seems they are also going out of their way to actively block any attempt to restrict the sale of guns, and even research into the effects of guns on society.

Introducing more guns into our society will not solve anything. It hasn't in America (in fact, I'd argue the opposite, it has made things worse). Personally, I believe there are two differences that making guns relatively easy to obtain makes: It increases the chances of the perps turning up to attack someone fully tooled up, and it makes it easier for them to obtain bigger guns.

I personally don't think a total ban on guns in the US would work. Tightening up restrictions on who can get them in combination with several gun amnesties will help over several years though. It has in every other country they have done it.

BTW, they can laugh all they want. We have far fewer mass shootings.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

You are right Stuart a total ban on firearms is totally unworkable.

I have friends in the US who go hunting, they need a firearm for that.
They don't go hunting for fun as they eat everything they kill perhaps not there and then but it stocks the freezer up! Their rifles go into a gun safe when they return from hunting trips.

Now let's look at hand guns. It is accepted that yes if you need a handgun for protection you should be able to have one. That is the american mindset.

So 2 examples of fulfilling the 2nd amendment. Both have an explained need. A rifle for hunting and a handgun for self defense.

Can someone explain the need for an assault rifle, bump stock and extra large magazine?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Hunter Pollack is a brother of one of the victims in the Florida school shooting, he absolutely scorned the FBI raid on Trump's lawyer last night.... he tweeted the following:

https://twitter.com/PollackHunter/st...32435492229121

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

I'm pretty sure the FBI agents in New York wouldn't have been involved in Florida cases.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Not at all but this families loss won't be helped knowing the FBI can act on a referral very swiftly because they are politically motivated (as this guy said in his tweet) but when it comes to saving lives, they were told multiple times about this Cruz kid and they did nothing. Shameful. :rolleyes:

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

The F.B.I, local police department and the school all could have stopped cruz at various points and none of them did and the ******* went on to do exactly what he said he would but all the attention has been put onto firearms. This was a catastrophic system failure that ended up killing a lot of people and that's been completely brushed over in the rush to use this incident to further the gun control agenda being honest the speed with which the anti gunners capitalise on these incidents using families of the victims makes me nearly as sick as the incidents themselves.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

'System failures' don't kill people, guns do.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

They do kill people if they should have stopped a killer and didn't.

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Can the police in America take guns off people they are concerned about?

Re: Florida Shooting: 17 Students Shot dead in another Mass Shooting in the U.S
 

Yes they can if they have cause to question the mental health of an individual which they had in spades in this instance and cruz broke multiple laws long before the school shooting that would have meant he couldn't purchase firearms. That was the first screw up by the school they could have had him charged when he attended school with knives and ammunition but they took the easy way out and expelled him. The number of times this kid should have been charged were staggering and yet no one took any official action, I'm not very versed in U.S law but I'd imagine there is a lawyer who could make a case out of the systemic failings in this case.