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-   -   Crisis in the NHS (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33704264)

Hugh 16-02-2017 19:37
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Mod comment - bye bye...

Ramrod 16-02-2017 21:55
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Most objective (non rabid) analysts agree that the NHS has enough money. The last twenty or so years have seen more and more money thrown at the NHS with, to put it mildly, disappointing results.
There are quite a few pilot studies dotted about the country demonstrating that good/best practice (which is not currently being practiced by vast swathes of the NHS) and innovative approaches to healthcare (ditto), can deliver massive increases in patient outcomes and massively reduce costs.
Link

Ramrod 07-03-2017 13:21
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
More than 600 health quango chiefs on six-figure salaries amid NHS cash crisis
Quote:
......a doubling in the number earning more than the Prime Minister in just three years, new figures show.

Many of the highest earners have made repeated demands on the Government to increase NHS funding as it battles against its worst financial deficit in history.

But figures uncovered by the Telegraph, show that the nine main health quangos are now employing 628 officials on salaries of at least £100,000.
They include 93 taking home more than Theresa May’s £149,440 salary - up from 48 at their predecessor bodies three years earlier.

Among the highest paid is the NHS deputy medical director, earning around £225,000 a year.
:dozey:

Mr K 09-03-2017 12:14
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-39217595
Quote:
Hunt demands NHS hits target for A&E care
That's alright then, if Jeremy 'demands' it, the magic pixies will make it happen. Sorted, well done the Boy Wonder.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/03/11.jpg

Hugh 09-03-2017 17:08
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod (Post 35888967)
I personally don't have a problem with someone who runs an organisation (like a Health Trust) with tens of thousands of staff, budgets of many billions, treating over a million patients a year (like my local Health Trust) being paid a reasonable salary.

Should they do it for love? Would anyone?

Kursk 09-03-2017 19:17
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
On an associated point, where is Dr Lauren Phillips? I do hope she's ok.

Chrysalis 09-03-2017 21:05
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowcoy (Post 35884089)
With regard to the other points pharmacists already have more power than most people realise with regard to issuing medication, it is a myth that you need a prescription to get a prescription medicine. As long as you have already been prescribed that medicine by a doctor previously and it is reasonable that you would require that medicine on a long term basis a pharmacist can provide you with an emergency supply if you are unable to obtain a prescription from a doctor.
Why limit it to emergency issuing as ultimately it still means the GP has to issue another prescription, although in my case my tablets now get delivered and the prescription is automated and sent to the chemist, so they have some kind of backend system already that helps, but I think they can go further by removing the need of prescriptions from GPs altogether on some drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowcoy (Post 35884089)
X-Rays in a GP surgery is something I like; however until we move to an alternative funding system I don't think it would be practical for every surgery to absorb the capital cost of the equipment plus the provision of qualified radiographers of which there is already a big shortage of.
Glad you agree and yes there would be an initial cost of capital outlay on equipment, regarding the staff to operate the equipment, well my dentist were able to X ray my teeth in their surgery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowcoy (Post 35884089)
In principle 7 day GP working is a great idea; however the big issue at the moment with this is there simply are not enough GPs in this country to make it work. There is also a growing body of evidence that suggests that when weekend appointments are available they are not always used. Personally I would prefer increased numbers of GPs working during the week when we do know that demand is massively out stripping the supply, hence why surgeries appointments are all fully booked within 5-10 minutes of opening!
We have the GPs they just unwilling to work the longer hours. To provide more GP access during the week needs more GPs, to add weekend visits does not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowcoy (Post 35884089)
How do you propose stopping GPs from doing private work? As far as I am aware the vast majority are not Technically employed by the NHS they are employed by their surgery which is an independent provider and is paid a sum per patient that is registered at that surgery.
This is hard I agree, I dont know the exact legal issues they have right now so hard to say, but they could do either of the following, not without problems, of course, would likely be protests etc.

1 - Reform the system so GPs are employed directly - very unlikely to happen
2 - Change the contracts with the GP surgeries so that they are not allowed to employ doctors who do other paid work.
3 - Make the amount each surgery is paid dependent on number of opening hours, this would indirectly encourage these surgeries to have their GPs put in the hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowcoy (Post 35884089)
As far as I am aware a lot of GPs already offer telephone consultations and some even use video conferencing for this as well. It is also already possible to email the surgery I am registered at with non urgent queries.
Problem is it is not universal, its a lottery, stuff like this should be made a nationwide NHS policy and forced up on the surgeries. Telephone consultations do have smaller slots at my surgery meaning they fit in more patients but are still less efficient than email. My surgery has no email or video conferencing service for the record.

Chrysalis 22-03-2017 18:34
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
quote from the leader of locum doctors association, I find it disgusting, but shows how a big part of the problems is greed from doctors.

Quote:
LDA chair Shehnaz Somjee said: "They could have five to six job offers in a day and they'll choose the best.

"They don't have to work if they don't want to because it's a loss to work at the capped rate.

"It's not the locum's fault. If (the NHS) wants to maintain the same system then tough.

"Patients will either suffer or they'll have to pay more."
Article it came from here. http://news.sky.com/story/hospitals-...onths-10810203

OLD BOY 23-03-2017 10:30
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowcoy (Post 35884089)

In principle 7 day GP working is a great idea; however the big issue at the moment with this is there simply are not enough GPs in this country to make it work. There is also a growing body of evidence that suggests that when weekend appointments are available they are not always used. Personally I would prefer increased numbers of GPs working during the week when we do know that demand is massively out stripping the supply, hence why surgeries appointments are all fully booked within 5-10 minutes of opening!
Weekend appointments in surgeries may be available but surgeries are reluctant to publicise this for fear that there will be a huge take-up on this. If you are employed full time, evenings or weekends are the best times for you to go to the surgery.

denphone 23-03-2017 10:39
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35891348)
Weekend appointments in surgeries may be available but surgeries are reluctant to publicise this for fear that there will be a huge take-up on this. If you are employed full time, evenings or weekends are the best times for you to go to the surgery.
Not available in our surgery currently as we have had a shortage of GP's for over a year despite advertising and this is only going to get worse as 3 GP'S are leaving at the end of March after handing in their notice's.

heero_yuy 23-03-2017 14:23
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Hospital chiefs spend whopping £1.2m on more than 5,000 trendy bladeless Dyson fans

The splurge is part of a £1,435,432 fortune spent by trusts across England on the firm’s notoriously pricey products.
Linky

No wonder there's a cash crisis. :rolleyes:

Mr K 12-04-2017 14:11
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
928 carers in England quit a day as social care system 'starts to collapse'
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...ts-to-collapse

Particularly alarming as the number of non-British EU nationals working in social care system has shot up by more than 40% in three years. if they decide they're not welcome we're stuffed.

Why are they leaving ? Did ask some body who recently left and they said crap pay, crap hours, too may visits in too short time and soul destroying if you care about the patients ,as there isn't enough time to spend with each patient to do the job properly. I won't be applying anytime soon...

Pierre 13-04-2017 10:52
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35894369)
I won't be applying anytime soon...
Good I hope nobody does, then they'll be forced to put wages up......unless they bus in a load of Eastern European migrants that will do the job for minimum wages or less...............

No there's a thought........you don't think free movement of cheap labour multiplied by unscrupulous care firms has some how contributed to all of this do you?

1andrew1 13-04-2017 11:07
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35894495)
Good I hope nobody does, then they'll be forced to put wages up......unless they bus in a load of Eastern European migrants that will do the job for minimum wages or less...............

No there's a thought........you don't think free movement of cheap labour multiplied by unscrupulous care firms has some how contributed to all of this do you?
It seems that to get better people you need to employ more people and pay them more. However, councils just don't have the money. So what to do? Raise taxes? Borrow money? You can tinker round the edges and save £1m by not buying Dyson hand driers but when you're talking £billions that doesn't go very far.

Gavin78 14-04-2017 00:28
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35891417)
Linky

No wonder there's a cash crisis. :rolleyes:

we've just spent £3000 on 12 of them but they have come from the Ward fund of donations so has a lot of the other wards.

They can't use fans with blades do to infection control

---------- Post added at 00:28 ---------- Previous post was at 00:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35894495)
Good I hope nobody does, then they'll be forced to put wages up......unless they bus in a load of Eastern European migrants that will do the job for minimum wages or less...............

No there's a thought........you don't think free movement of cheap labour multiplied by unscrupulous care firms has some how contributed to all of this do you?
Language barrier is a huge issue, I often have to repeat what the foreign nurses have said to the patient because they don't undertand what they said.

Plus I find a lot of them wont listen my 11 years in Renal seems to count for nothing because the managers excuse is it's their culture

Osem 14-04-2017 09:45
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35894605)
we've just spent £3000 on 12 of them but they have come from the Ward fund of donations so has a lot of the other wards.

They can't use fans with blades do to infection control

---------- Post added at 00:28 ---------- Previous post was at 00:25 ----------



Language barrier is a huge issue, I often have to repeat what the foreign nurses have said to the patient because they don't undertand what they said.

Plus I find a lot of them wont listen my 11 years in Renal seems to count for nothing because the managers excuse is it's their culture
They're frightened to offend anyone and that'd include a lot of patients I'm sure, my elderly mum being one. It's the sort of 'logic' which led to all those child abuse cases - fear of upsetting someone = do nothing. As far as I'm concerned being able to properly understand medical professionals is essential and that shouldn't offend anyone, let alone a professional person.

Interesting thing about fans and infection control. I don't recall traditional fans being cited as a common source of infection in the past in the years when MRSA etc. weren't almost endemic in many of our hospitals so has something changed or is the move to bladeless fans just another policy resulting from a desire to be seen to be doing something, anything?... :shrug:

Damien 14-04-2017 10:03
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
The reason adult social care is not in crisis because of immigrant workers. The social care workers get paid little and funding has been cut. The idea they get paid little because there are Eastern Europeans willing to do for minimum wage as if there would be plenty of money otherwise is nonsense.

There is not a lot of money in providing social care for vulnerable adults, few can afford private care and this isn't a area of government spending that was ring fenced in 2010. There is a limited amount of money and if you got rid of immigrants and paid UK workers more you would have fewer social care workers until such time as the government puts even more money in or we otherwise find a way to solve this problem.

But people resent tax rises, they resent the idea their home should go to cost of providing their social care and they resent immigrants who come and take the low paid social care jobs so god knows what the answer is going to be.

Osem 14-04-2017 10:18
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35894629)
The reason adult social care is not in crisis because of immigrant workers. The social care workers get paid little and funding has been cut. The idea they get paid little because there are Eastern Europeans willing to do for minimum wage as if there would be plenty of money otherwise is nonsense.

There is not a lot of money in providing social care for vulnerable adults, few can afford private care and this isn't a area of government spending that was ring fenced in 2010. There is a limited amount of money and if you got rid of immigrants and paid UK workers more you would have fewer social care workers until such time as the government puts even more money in or we otherwise find a way to solve this problem.

But people resent tax rises, they resent the idea their home should go to cost of providing their social care and they resent immigrants who come and take the low paid social care jobs so god knows what the answer is going to be.
The answer is going to be that people have to pay more by hook or by crook AKA tax. As the bank of mum and dad is forced to step in more to help their kids get on the housing ladder, reduce student debts etc, including downsizing themselves, there's going to be even fewer people with assets left after so doing which are sufficient to pay for all their social care when it's needed.

There's not much of an incentive to save and accrue assets if you believe that when the time comes you may have nothing to pass on to your children because you'll have to pay for all your care and sell your house to do so. Far more sensible to help them out early on (housing prices are going up much faster then investment returns) and thereby reduce your assets because self-funders are all too often being charged far more for the same standard of care as those being funded by the LAs. They're effectively subsidising the system.

I think the only long term answer is some form of social care insurance people are required to pay into throughout their lives but that idea will go down like a lead balloon until the system we have grinds to a halt.

Damien 14-04-2017 10:35
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35894630)
The answer is going to be that people have to pay more by hook or by crook AKA tax. As the bank of mum and dad is forced to step in more to help their kids get on the housing ladder, reduce student debts etc, including downsizing themselves, there's going to be even fewer people with assets left after so doing which are sufficient to pay for all their social care when it's needed.

There's not much of an incentive to save and accrue assets if you believe that when the time comes you may have nothing to pass on to your children because you'll have to pay for all your care and sell your house to do so. Far more sensible to help them out early on (housing prices are going up much faster then investment returns) and thereby reduce your assets because self-funders are all too often being charged far more for the same standard of care as those being funded by the LAs. They're effectively subsidising the system.

I think the only long term answer is some form of social care insurance people are required to pay into throughout their lives but that idea will go down like a lead balloon until the system we have grinds to a halt.
Yes I think tax too although I think this also highlights how unfit for purpose our current housing market is as well.

Osem 14-04-2017 10:46
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35894632)
Yes I think tax too although I think this also highlights how unfit for purpose our current housing market is as well.
The housing market bubble will burst again just like it always does but people are being given mixed messages. On the one hand they're being encouraged to save (eg ISAs & pensions) but on the other and the returns they get for so doing are miniscule unless they invest in bricks and mortar or stock market related products which are also risky. Personal debt is also being allowed to mushroom to keep the economy growing - IIRC more new cars were registered in the UK than ever before and the highest ever proportion being financed.

As a decent parent, the main thing you save for is your children's future and when that is discouraged the big losers will be the children who not only have to pay more for everything along the way but will get less back and probably won't inherit a bean either. The good news for an increasing number of them will be. however, that they'll have far less assets for HMG to take off them as they get old and prepare to meet their maker... :erm: ;)

Pierre 14-04-2017 17:41
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35894629)
The reason adult social care is not in crisis because of immigrant workers. The social care workers get paid little and funding has been cut. The idea they get paid little because there are Eastern Europeans willing to do for minimum wage as if there would be plenty of money otherwise is nonsense.
I have to disagree there. Basic market economics says otherwise.

It's not the only reason, but if there is no driver i.e. Lack of labour resource, to increase wages then they won't increase simple as that.

Quote:
There is not a lot of money in providing social care for vulnerable adults, few can afford private care and this isn't a area of government spending that was ring fenced in 2010. There is a limited amount of money and if you got rid of immigrants and paid UK workers more you would have fewer social care workers until such time as the government puts even more money in or we otherwise find a way to solve this problem.
There's not a lot of money in it because they're getting away with not putting any money in it because they're paying depressed wages.

If they were forced to put more money into then at least we'd be forced into having a proper debate on how we fund social care for the ever increasing age of the population.

Perhaps a care tax or as well as having a private pension plan you have to get a private care plan?

But whilst they can get away with running the system on cheap labour they are not forced to have that uncomfortable debate.

Damien 14-04-2017 18:14
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35894680)
I have to disagree there. Basic market economics says otherwise.

It's not the only reason, but if there is no driver i.e. Lack of labour resource, to increase wages then they won't increase simple as that.



There's not a lot of money in it because they're getting away with not putting any money in it because they're paying depressed wages.

If they were forced to put more money into then at least we'd be forced into having a proper debate on how we fund social care for the ever increasing age of the population.

Perhaps a care tax or as well as having a private pension plan you have to get a private care plan?

But whilst they can get away with running the system on cheap labour they are not forced to have that uncomfortable debate.
The system isn't working now and they're not putting much money in.

Social care was ripe for cuts in 2010 because it gets far less attention than the bigger items such as the NHS so whilst the latter was 'ringfenced' social care was cut. It's not just elderly people, the part of social care people do at least pay some attention too, it's also for adults who have various disabilities that require a lot of care.

1andrew1 14-04-2017 19:14
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35894680)
I have to disagree there. Basic market economics says otherwise.

It's not the only reason, but if there is no driver i.e. Lack of labour resource, to increase wages then they won't increase simple as that.

There's not a lot of money in it because they're getting away with not putting any money in it because they're paying depressed wages.

If they were forced to put more money into then at least we'd be forced into having a proper debate on how we fund social care for the ever increasing age of the population.

Perhaps a care tax or as well as having a private pension plan you have to get a private care plan?

But whilst they can get away with running the system on cheap labour they are not forced to have that uncomfortable debate.
Not really market economics. Wages have risen in social care due to the minimum wage and its subsequent increases, they've not been pushed down due to any apparent over-supply of labour.

TheDaddy 14-04-2017 21:42
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35894689)
Not really market economics. Wages have risen in social care due to the minimum wage and its subsequent increases, they've not been pushed down due to any apparent over-supply of labour.
Are those increases even worth talking about, we are talking about the barest minimum in pay rise.

I remember when I was young my grandad came to live with us when things got to much for him, that kind of thing doesn't seem to happen much anymore and all it cost us was a dining room.

Mr K 14-05-2017 10:01
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Recruitment crisis hits NHS with one in nine posts currently vacant
Quote:
The government’s approach to Brexit was also adding to the recruitment difficulties, Lamb added. “Some 7% of nurses and health visitors – 22,000 – are other-EU nationals, many of whom are also leaving due to the government’s failure to guarantee the right to remain of NHS nurses.”
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...y_to_clipboard

Wonder why we can't attract enough people into nursing, and we are reliant on EU nationals ?

Damien 14-05-2017 10:06
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35898770)
Wonder why we can't attract enough people into nursing, and we are reliant on EU nationals ?
Don't get paid a lot, now they have to pay more of their training costs too.

denphone 14-05-2017 10:24
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35898772)
Don't get paid a lot, now they have to pay more of their training costs too.
A recipe for a shortage in these coming years.

Osem 14-05-2017 11:48
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Let's have a look at some numbers to see how reliant the NHS is on EU nationals:

Quote:
EU immigrants make up about 5% of English NHS staff and about 5% of the English population, according to the best available data. Across the UK, EU immigrants make up 10% of registered doctors and 4% of registered nurses. Immigrants from outside the EU make up larger proportions. Restrictions on non-EU immigrants have affected NHS recruitment, suggesting that the same could happen if there were limits on EU immigration. However, these restrictions did not trigger a process of existing healthcare workers fleeing the UK
https://fullfact.org/immigration/imm...and-nhs-staff/

Quote:
55,000 out of the 1.2 million staff in the English NHS are citizens of other EU countries, according to the English Health Service’s Electronic Staff Record. This includes doctors; nurses; other professionals like paramedics and pharmacists; support workers providing care; and administrative staff.

Mr K 14-05-2017 12:03
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
If it wasn't bad enough the nurses we still have left don't seen that happy.

Quote:
Nurses have voted overwhelmingly to support a ballot for strike action in protest at below-inflation pay rises, the Royal College of Nursing has announced.

Four out of five members of the RCN who took part in the consultative vote backed a walkout, while nine out of 10 favoured industrial action short of a strike.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/...y_to_clipboard

Bunch of militants I should, think except the RCN has never even contemplated strike action before.

Mr K 06-06-2017 19:52
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/he...-a7775571.html
Quote:
Secret NHS cost-cutting plans sound 'death knell' for British healthcare, warn campaigners

Extended waiting times, ward and service closures, and withdrawal of public funding for some treatments among proposals in new national savings drive

Senior NHS managers are discussing secret cost-cutting plans to be announced after the General Election – measures that one chief executive described as the most extreme and difficult to hit the health service they had ever seen.
But I guess the great British public will vote Tory anyway :rolleyes:

denphone 06-06-2017 20:17
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35901964)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/he...-a7775571.html


But I guess the great British public will vote Tory anyway :rolleyes:
Perhaps your all seeing crystal ball will reveal everything to you.;)

Taf 06-06-2017 20:37
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
It's managers making plans to try to stay within budgets, as the Tories are getting sick of bailing them out all the time.

nomadking 06-06-2017 20:51
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35901964)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/he...-a7775571.html


But I guess the great British public will vote Tory anyway :rolleyes:
Quote:
The controversial measures are being discussed privately between top officials from NHS England and NHS Improvement and health managers in 14 areas of the country with the highest levels of overspending.
ONLY in 14 areas that overspend.

How about this one?
Quote:
An NHS foundation trust heading for a £20m deficit is cutting jobs and reducing services to retain the right to administer itself.
Heatherwood and Wexham Park Hospitals Foundation Trust has been placed under close scrutiny by Monitor, which regulates foundation trusts.
The financial crisis is embarrassing for the government because NHS foundation trusts are awarded administrative autonomy supposedly in recognition of good management.
The local overspend comes as both Labour and the Conservatives are warning about the need for massive "efficiency cuts" in the NHS in the coming years.
Or doesn't that count as that was 2009 under LABOUR.

From June 2009
Quote:
NHS trusts will have to deliver between £15 billion and £20 billion in efficiency savings over three years from 2011 to 2014, David Nicholson, the NHS chief executive, told health service finance directors in a speech delivered behind closed doors.

The steep cuts would be equivalent to up to six per cent of the current NHS budget.

Health trusts which fail to deliver the required savings could face tough new penalties following a review by the Department of Health of its enforcement regime.
So in 2009, LABOUR were planning 6% cuts.
Nottingham University Hospitals report from 2012
Quote:
The annual staff survey demonstrated that staff morale
was relatively low compared with peer trusts in 2009. This was not
unexpected after a significant period of change that included a sizeable
merger, a new leadership team,organisational restructuring, cost cutting, reduction of staff posts, and adjustments to services and staffing.
...
in 2006/7, cost reductions of £20.9million were achieved. However,
this was accompanied by an adverse impact on quality, operational performance, and patient and staff experience.
Wasn't 2006/7 before any financial problems?
Post 2010 from same report.
Quote:
In 2010/11 and 2011/12 higher levels of cost-reduction
were achieved with many areas demonstrating
accompanying improvements in quality, efficiency, and
patient and staff experience. This has been achieved
through a focus on improving quality and ensuring that
costs released from the organisation are the result of
working better and differently – the basis of Better for
You.
Quote:
6-month figures for 2006-07 show that 178 NHS organisations are currently in overall deficit (70 NHS trusts and 108 PCTs).
Quote:
Senior management 1999 24,287, 2005 39,391 increase 62.2%
Quote:
NHS and healthcare to bear the brunt of 2009 budget cuts

The NHS and the Department of Health took the biggest hit yesterday as the labour government allocated its £5bn cut in public spending for next year, which it claims will be made up by efficiency savings.
And I'm very sure there are plenty more examples where they came from.

Pierre 06-06-2017 21:05
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35901964)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/he...-a7775571.html


But I guess the great British public will vote Tory anyway :rolleyes:
There is absolutely nothing of any substance in that report, it is total speculation. Might, could, may! Nameless spokes people!

The independent just goes and proves it is anything but.

Total bollocks.

Arthurgray50@blu 06-06-2017 21:36
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
I have an idea. Why don't we cut every essential service going. So MPs wont get there Police Protection officers.

The NHS will close and everyone will have to go over to private companies.

I was at the dentist today. I was in the dentist chair for FIVE minutes and it cost me 20.00 and l was told that l could have further treatment and it would be private at 250 quid. As the treatment l need, you cannot get on the NHS.

Just shut everything down. As if May gets in. That's what will happen. Everything will be be private. Fox hunting will return to annoy anti fox hunters.

I am getting pissed off already with all this crap from all parties.

May has said that she will change the Human Rights act. Cannot do that. It will be challenged in court and she will lose.

Miss May is Thatcher 2.

mrmistoffelees 07-06-2017 12:47
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35901986)
I have an idea. Why don't we cut every essential service going. So MPs wont get there Police Protection officers.

The NHS will close and everyone will have to go over to private companies.

I was at the dentist today. I was in the dentist chair for FIVE minutes and it cost me 20.00 and l was told that l could have further treatment and it would be private at 250 quid. As the treatment l need, you cannot get on the NHS.

You mean these NHS band charges ?

Band 1: £20.60 covers an examination, diagnosis and advice. If necessary, it also includes X-rays, a scale and polish and planning for further treatment.
Band 2: £56.30 covers all treatment covered by Band 1, plus additional treatment, such as fillings, root canal treatment and removing teeth (extractions).
Band 3: £244.30 covers all treatment covered by Bands 1 and 2, plus more complex procedures, such as crowns, dentures and bridges.

Just shut everything down. As if May gets in. That's what will happen. Everything will be be private. Fox hunting will return to annoy anti fox hunters.

I am getting pissed off already with all this crap from all parties.

May has said that she will change the Human Rights act. Cannot do that. It will be challenged in court and she will lose.

Good, the protection of society should not be achieved by curtailing the liberties of the many

Miss May is Thatcher 2.
It's Mrs

Arthurgray50@blu 07-06-2017 20:51
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
I have noticed that both the main parties such as Tory, they have ripped to pieces everything. And if she gets back in - which l hope not - she will just continue what she has done. Cuts, cuts and more cuts to save money.

And IF Corbyn gets in it will be spend and spend. All this election garbage will be the same. We will do this and that. And what will happen - NOTHING.

That's why l said Close down everything now. As it will happen in a couple of years.

There wont be any NHS, it will al be private. Police will be run by G4S, the Fire service will be run by a private company with a merge of Ambulance.

And again run by private companies. We wont benefit. The rich will. All that money they will get by tenders. They all make me sick

mrmistoffelees 07-06-2017 22:24
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
0118 999881999119725












3

OLD BOY 08-06-2017 09:50
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35902102)
I have noticed that both the main parties such as Tory, they have ripped to pieces everything. And if she gets back in - which l hope not - she will just continue what she has done. Cuts, cuts and more cuts to save money.

And IF Corbyn gets in it will be spend and spend. All this election garbage will be the same. We will do this and that. And what will happen - NOTHING.

That's why l said Close down everything now. As it will happen in a couple of years.

There wont be any NHS, it will al be private. Police will be run by G4S, the Fire service will be run by a private company with a merge of Ambulance.

And again run by private companies. We wont benefit. The rich will. All that money they will get by tenders. They all make me sick
What an apocolyptic view of the world you do have, Arthur!

Of course, the best option is to create the conditions for a healthy economy, making more money available to the NHS, ensure the NHS adopts modern practices and works efficiently, and ensure that tourists and others coming into the UK are covered by health insurance so that we can claim back the cost of NHS care.

Surely, that is a better solution. Vote Conservative. You know it makes sense.

Mr K 08-06-2017 10:11
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902169)
What an apocolyptic view of the world you do have, Arthur!

Of course, the best option is to create the conditions for a healthy economy, making more money available to the NHS, ensure the NHS adopts modern practices and works efficiently, and ensure that tourists and others coming into the UK are covered by health insurance so that we can claim back the cost of NHS care.

Surely, that is a better solution. Vote Conservative. You know it makes sense.
Yes, seems to have worked over the last 7 years. Targets increasingly being missed everywhere, cancer survival rates the worst in western Europe and a recruitment crisis for nurses and doctors. If anybody thinks the NHS will exist after another 5 years they are deluded. Vote Tory by all means but if you and your family really need the NHS in future you'll only have yourself to blame when it fails to deliver.

nomadking 08-06-2017 11:06
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902172)
Yes, seems to have worked over the last 7 years. Targets increasingly being missed everywhere, cancer survival rates the worst in western Europe and a recruitment crisis for nurses and doctors. If anybody thinks the NHS will exist after another 5 years they are deluded. Vote Tory by all means but if you and your family really need the NHS in future you'll only have yourself to blame when it fails to deliver.
And all that didn't also happen under Labour?

Any recruitment crisis is a worldwide one. The wealthier countries import staff.

Mr K 08-06-2017 11:22
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35902176)
And all that didn't also happen under Labour?

Any recruitment crisis is a worldwide one. The wealthier countries import staff.
Not really, no.

It's worse in this country under this Govt. e.g. 6,700 mental health staff have been culled since the Tories came to power in 2010. The Govts. refusal to safeguard EU citizens also means EU staff are leaving in droves.

Hugh 08-06-2017 11:28
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
"culled".

You win today's prize for most inappropriately emotive word....

Mr K 08-06-2017 11:33
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35902181)
"culled".

You win today's prize for most inappropriately emotive word....
"sacked" if you prefer Hugh. All means the same to patients not getting the care they need.

Hugh 08-06-2017 11:37
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Sacked - really?

Or were staff who left not replaced?

denphone 08-06-2017 11:46
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902182)
"sacked" if you prefer Hugh. All means the same to patients not getting the care they need.
Efficiency savings they say my dear man or depending on ones political persuasion a plethora of other labels..;)

https://www.england.nhs.uk/wp-conten...ote-090516.pdf

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-35857815

nomadking 08-06-2017 11:46
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902178)
Not really, no.

It's worse in this country under this Govt. e.g. 6,700 mental health staff have been culled since the Tories came to power in 2010. The Govts. refusal to safeguard EU citizens also means EU staff are leaving in droves.
And how many were "culled" under Labour? Labour cut the number of mental health beds by 28% from 1997 to 2008(36,601 to 26,430). Overall they cut beds by 17.5% across the NHS etc.

Are EU staff leaving in "droves"? Why should they? They don't know the final situation yet, and at worst will be in the same position as the MANY non-EU staff already here.

Mr K 08-06-2017 11:53
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35902183)
Sacked - really?

Or were staff who left not replaced?
6700 not 'replaced' if you like.

Forerunner for the rest of the health service given the vast numbers of vacancies atm. Really struggle to see what the aim of the Tories is. Removing bursaries from student nurses is really going to help (not). Even if it's to privatise do they really need to run it into the ground first?. Jeremy Hunt seems to have kept a very low profile over the last month...

Hugh 08-06-2017 13:05
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902189)
6700 not 'replaced' if you like.

Forerunner for the rest of the health service given the vast numbers of vacancies atm. Really struggle to see what the aim of the Tories is. Removing bursaries from student nurses is really going to help (not). Even if it's to privatise do they really need to run it into the ground first?. Jeremy Hunt seems to have kept a very low profile over the last month...
Well, that's a helluva U-turn from your first two shots at it.

There's a enormous difference in being sacked/culled and and not having the job in the first place - but you knew that, anyway, but went for the cheap shot..... ;)

TheDaddy 08-06-2017 13:08
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35902196)
Well, that's a helluva U-turn from your first two shots at it.

There's a enormous difference in being sacked/culled and and not having the job in the first place - but you knew that, anyway, but went for the cheap shot...
6700 posts slashed and Mr K is the one taking cheap shots

Hugh 08-06-2017 13:11
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35902198)
6700 posts slashed and Mr K is the one taking cheap shots
If he had said that in the first place, I would have agreed with him - it's wrong that this happened.

But he misrepresented the fact that no one had actually lost their job - he actually said "sacked", which is not true.

There's enough negative things been done by various parties/governments, without having to make stuff up, which weakens the argument when it is shown to be false (there's been a lot of this on Social Media in the last week, with anti-Conservative memes about Lincs Tories and a non-existent MP saying things).

If the facts are enough to help you win, you have morally lost anyway (whichever side you're on).

OLD BOY 08-06-2017 13:50
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902172)
Yes, seems to have worked over the last 7 years. Targets increasingly being missed everywhere, cancer survival rates the worst in western Europe and a recruitment crisis for nurses and doctors. If anybody thinks the NHS will exist after another 5 years they are deluded. Vote Tory by all means but if you and your family really need the NHS in future you'll only have yourself to blame when it fails to deliver.
So, how would electing Labour help? They were going to put in less money than the Conservatives have done!

The comparisons lefties make between how the two parties approach the NHS is completely delusional. It is the CONSERVATIVES who are pumping more money in while trying to bring efficiency and modernisation to the NHS, it was LABOUR who were responsible for most of the privatisation that has taken place in the NHS through the PFI initiatives and it was LABOUR who presided over the drinking out of vases by patients not being looked after properly at Mid Staffordshire Hospital, and actually tried to cover it up rather than address it.

You'd think it was the other way around to hear some of them spout forth in the election campaign.

If Corbyn is promising more money for the NHS now, he's got to get the money first, and we will not see any efficiencies introduced. If that happens, the NHS will surely crumble before our eyes because he will simply run out of money. His economic plan wouldn't even make sense in a Jack and Jill book.

Corbyn has proved himself to be a brilliant illusionist, but it really is all smoke and mirrors, folks!

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902178)
Not really, no.

It's worse in this country under this Govt. e.g. 6,700 mental health staff have been culled since the Tories came to power in 2010. The Govts. refusal to safeguard EU citizens also means EU staff are leaving in droves.
No, they haven't been culled or sacked, but it is true that posts have been cut to make the books balance. Presumably, you do remember the banking crisis over which Labour presided. The words 'chickens' and 'roost' come to mind.

As for EU citizens, the Government has already suggested that EU citizens over here and UK citizens in the EU are protected but the EU have refused to play ball on that one.

I'm afraid that Corbyn's way would succeed in protecting EU citizens over here, but would fail to address UK citizens over there! What kind of deal is that? The Conservatives aim to protect all 4,000 whereas Corbyn seems to think that protecting only 3,000 is a good deal!

Heaven help us all if he is elected to negotiate with these EU nasties.

Mr K 08-06-2017 14:00
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35902196)
Well, that's a helluva U-turn from your first two shots at it.

There's a enormous difference in being sacked/culled and and not having the job in the first place - but you knew that, anyway, but went for the cheap shot..... ;)
think you're trying to play your usual word semantics to divert from the real issue Hugh. Are you happy and proud that the party you support has overseen 6,700 jobs in mental health going?

denphone 08-06-2017 14:06
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902208)
think you're trying to play your usual word semantics to divert from the real issue Hugh. Are you happy and proud that the party you support has overseen 6,700 jobs in mental health going?
Both parties should hang their head in shame at the state of mental health currently in this country as they are both culpable IMO.

OLD BOY 08-06-2017 14:23
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35902212)
Both parties should hang their head in shame at the state of mental health currently in this country as they are both culpable IMO.
But it is Theresa May's initiative to improve mental health, not Jeremy Corbyn, although he might wish to jump on the bandwagon now so he doesn't look so bad, a feat though that would be.

Mr K 08-06-2017 14:26
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902218)
But it is Theresa May's initiative to improve mental health, not Jeremy Corbyn, although he might wish to jump on the bandwagon now so he doesn't look so bad, a feat though that would be.
Lol that's rich, trying to fix a problem her party has created. All promises can be forgotten tomorrow and project 'dismantle the NHS' can continue.

denphone 08-06-2017 14:27
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902218)
But it is Theresa May's initiative to improve mental health, not Jeremy Corbyn, although he might wish to jump on the bandwagon now so he doesn't look so bad, a feat though that would be.
Promises are one thing as anybody can do that at the end of the day but delivering the actual reality of it all is another as most politicians make insincere statements and promises and yet don't back it up with any action OB.

OLD BOY 08-06-2017 14:30
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902219)
Lol that's rich, trying to fix a problem her party has created. All promises can be forgotten tomorrow and project 'dismantle the NHS' can continue.
How did her party create this problem? Mental health has always been the cinderella service of the NHS, including during the 1997-2010 Blair/Brown years.

---------- Post added at 14:30 ---------- Previous post was at 14:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35902221)
Promises are one thing as anybody can do that at the end of the day but delivering the actual reality of it all is another as most politicians make insincere statements and promises and yet don't back it up with any action OB.
I sense Theresa May is deadly serious about this, Den, but only time will prove me right on this.

Mr K 08-06-2017 14:42
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902222)

[/COLOR]I sense Theresa May is deadly serious about this, Den, but only time will prove me right on this.
mmm, she was deadly serious on the NI increase and there being no cap on the 'dementia tax'....

OLD BOY 08-06-2017 15:43
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902228)
mmm, she was deadly serious on the NI increase and there being no cap on the 'dementia tax'....
The NI issue was an ill advised David Cameron promise, which happened to be overlooked by the Chancellor, who did not realise that the adjustment he proposed would contravene a manifesto promise. Theresa rightly reversed this decision when it was pointed out.

The cap was a hidden benefit to people that would have been discussed through a consultation process. I guess it was wrong not to make it clear in the manifesto, but hells bells, nobody would be affected adversely by this.

I am pretty fed up with costant jibing over u-turns. I think it's good to have a listening leader who is prepared to change their mind if persuaded by the arguments against, don't you?

Mind you, if you vote Jeremy in, you will certainly be voting for someone who stands firm in the middle of all common sense! Not for me!

Hugh 08-06-2017 16:09
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35902199)
If he had said that in the first place, I would have agreed with him - it's wrong that this happened.

But he misrepresented the fact that no one had actually lost their job - he actually said "sacked", which is not true.

There's enough negative things been done by various parties/governments, without having to make stuff up, which weakens the argument when it is shown to be false (there's been a lot of this on Social Media in the last week, with anti-Conservative memes about Lincs Tories and a non-existent MP saying things).

If the facts are enough to help you win, you have morally lost anyway (whichever side you're on).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902208)
think you're trying to play your usual word semantics to divert from the real issue Hugh. Are you happy and proud that the party you support has overseen 6,700 jobs in mental health going?
My answer to that question was previously posted....

"Semantics" - or as everyone else calls them - "facts".

No one was sacked.

Mr K 08-06-2017 19:09
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35902243)
My answer to that question was previously posted....

"Semantics" - or as everyone else calls them - "facts".

No one was sacked.
I'll stick to my original words then ( if that's ok) the posts have been culled.
2 hours 50 mins left to save the NHS.

RizzyKing 08-06-2017 20:03
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
If the NHS was a shining beacon between 1997 - 2010 you might have a point but it wasn't yes they built hospitals under PFI which will have the NHS paying for them forever and a day and vastly more then if they just built them out of the NHS budget. Labour are anything but the grand saviors of the NHS and even if they were the economic disaster they always leaves hamstrings the next few governments who have to sort it out, yeah go labour vote labour :rolleyes:.

Mr K 08-06-2017 20:13
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
I'm no fan of Blair but Labour can be proud of the investment made, hospitals were built. The NHS is now crumbling very few would deny that. Does anybody really think the Tories are going to save it? They've had 7 years, they don't give a toss for the plebs.

On the bright side Fox hunting will be back, so that's the main thing, tally ho !

Mick 08-06-2017 20:40
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902293)
I'm no fan of Blair but Labour can be proud of the investment made, hospitals were built. The NHS is now crumbling very few would deny that. Does anybody really think the Tories are going to save it? They've had 7 years, they don't give a toss for the plebs.

On the bright side Fox hunting will be back, so that's the main thing, tally ho !
You're using sound bites like an ill informed Labour Activist.

Labour will not save NHS and Fox hunting needs a vote in Parliament before it came back. But it's never actually gone away. The sport still happens, it's a case of what the eye does not see.

Osem 08-06-2017 21:27
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Labour can be proud of the massive PFI legacy they've left us paying for for decades can they? Typical Labour tripe. Hugely expensive contracts which are so profitable for the private companies who run them they're even bought and sold like commodities. If the Tories had been responsible for those contracts we'd never have heard the end of it from the usual suspects - fat cats looking after their rich mates blah blah blah... How can anyone be proud that the taxpayer and hence the NHS has been ripped off so badly?

Hugh 08-06-2017 21:32
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902293)
I'm no fan of Blair but Labour can be proud of the investment made, hospitals were built. The NHS is now crumbling very few would deny that. Does anybody really think the Tories are going to save it? They've had 7 years, they don't give a toss for the plebs.

On the bright side Fox hunting will be back, so that's the main thing, tally ho !
PFI costs the NHS £2 billion a year.

https://fullfact.org/health/what-nhs...e-initiatives/

RizzyKing 08-06-2017 22:14
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
"Proud of the investment made" lmao did you type that with a straight face they might have built hospitals but using PFI was a lazy solution and an extremely costly one for years and years to come and on top of that some of those hospitals were so poorly constructed they need constant running repairs which is an additional cost on top of the PFI. Labour screwed the NHS more then the torys could and the great thing about it are people like you who parrot total rubbish in support of what they did so win win for labour. They throw money we don't have around like confetti looking very good knowing another party has to come in and sort out the mess losing public support as they do it which leads to labour getting back in, you couldn't make it up.

OLD BOY 09-06-2017 14:44
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
We've just come dangerously close to finding out just how badly Labour would have actually run the NHS. I hope it never comes to that.

---------- Post added at 14:39 ---------- Previous post was at 14:37 ----------



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35902293)

I'm no fan of Blair but Labour can be proud of the investment made, hospitals were built. The NHS is now crumbling very few would deny that. Does anybody really think the Tories are going to save it? They've had 7 years, they don't give a toss for the plebs.

On the bright side Fox hunting will be back, so that's the main thing, tally ho !
Yes, built by the private sector, of course! What cynicism!

Osem 09-06-2017 17:00
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35902304)
PFI costs the NHS £2 billion a year.

https://fullfact.org/health/what-nhs...e-initiatives/
Yes, all that money going into fat cat PRIVATE hands and Labour should be proud of it? I thought they were vehemently against privatising the NHS :shrug: :rolleyes:

Even the fattest of Tory cats would have struggled to privatise the NHS more than Brown...

richard s 09-06-2017 20:27
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Here, here

OLD BOY 10-06-2017 16:05
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35902536)
Yes, all that money going into fat cat PRIVATE hands and Labour should be proud of it? I thought they were vehemently against privatising the NHS :shrug: :rolleyes:

Even the fattest of Tory cats would have struggled to privatise the NHS more than Brown...
I think I'm right in saying that most of the privatisation of the NHS in recent times has been brought about by Labour, via PFI.

You wouldn't think it from the things they come out with.

1andrew1 10-06-2017 23:54
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902646)
I think I'm right in saying that most of the privatisation of the NHS in recent times has been brought about by Labour, via PFI.

You wouldn't think it from the things they come out with.
I think Corbyn is arguing against further privatisation of the NHS eg by NHS trusts outsourcing work to companies like Virgin Care and Circle Health. He's not attempting to justify the PFI and PPP schemes from previous administrations.

OLD BOY 11-06-2017 10:25
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35902714)
I think Corbyn is arguing against further privatisation of the NHS eg by NHS trusts outsourcing work to companies like Virgin Care and Circle Health. He's not attempting to justify the PFI and PPP schemes from previous administrations.
So instead of getting people the care they need quicker by using the private sector to take up the slack, people will have to wait longer to get the care they need.

Yes, that would make sense to the Cobynistas! God help us!!

1andrew1 11-06-2017 10:43
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902759)
So instead of getting people the care they need quicker by using the private sector to take up the slack, people will have to wait longer to get the care they need.

Yes, that would make sense to the Cobynistas! God help us!!
I think his key arguments have been about outsourcing existing functions to private companies, not using the private sector for overflow in times of peak demand.

Osem 11-06-2017 13:08
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902646)
I think I'm right in saying that most of the privatisation of the NHS in recent times has been brought about by Labour, via PFI.

You wouldn't think it from the things they come out with.
It's typical of their lies and spin. They portray themselves as the friends of a publicly run NHS and castigate the Tories when in fact they've done more to privatise it than the Tories ever did. Sadly rather too many people still fall for it because it's what they want to hear.

1andrew1 11-06-2017 14:29
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35902774)
It's typical of their lies and spin. They portray themselves as the friends of a publicly run NHS and castigate the Tories when in fact they've done more to privatise it than the Tories ever did. Sadly rather too many people still fall for it because it's what they want to hear.
I think the debate is about which parties will privatise most or least of the NHS going forward. It's convenient for some to try and measure which party used PPP or PFI contracts the most but I've not seen a figure on this nor is it really a relevant debate, as these contracts have largely been discredited by all parties.

richard1960 11-06-2017 14:35
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35902786)
I think the debate is about which parties will privatise most or least of the NHS going forward. It's convenient for some to try and measure which party used PPP or PFI contracts the most but I've not seen a figure on this nor is it really a relevant debate, as these contracts have largely been discredited by all parties.
Let me tell you this in April this year the entire childrens services of my NHS trust was transferred to Virgin Healthcare.

Some of the PFI figures I know as a union rep they would make your eyes water.

Osem 11-06-2017 16:04
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
It's also convenient for some to deny the scale of the PFI debacle and the huge ONGOING costs these contracts are imposing on the NHS and will be doing for decades. That money could be being far better spent where it matters instead of simply adding to the costs before we even start treating anyone.

1andrew1 11-06-2017 16:20
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35902815)
It's also convenient for some to deny the scale of the PFI debacle and the huge ONGOING costs these contracts are imposing on the NHS and will be doing for decades. That money could be being far better spent where it matters instead of simply adding to the costs before we even start treating anyone.
I don't think you'll find JC denying their ongoing costs. His party seems to have learnt from the sorry state of affairs. Unlike the Conservatives who may well be motivated to deny the scale of the PPP-PFI debacle.

richard1960 11-06-2017 16:28
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35902815)
It's also convenient for some to deny the scale of the PFI debacle and the huge ONGOING costs these contracts are imposing on the NHS and will be doing for decades. That money could be being far better spent where it matters instead of simply adding to the costs before we even start treating anyone.
Now that is a cast iron 100% fact. Sadly..

OLD BOY 11-06-2017 16:39
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35902786)
I think the debate is about which parties will privatise most or least of the NHS going forward. It's convenient for some to try and measure which party used PPP or PFI contracts the most but I've not seen a figure on this nor is it really a relevant debate, as these contracts have largely been discredited by all parties.
PFI was a Labour initiative, wasn't it? They should not be allowed to dodge that truth.

Frankly I don't care whether the private or public sector run it, as long as we get better value for money, and provided that it remains free at the point of delivery.

---------- Post added at 16:39 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35902786)
I think the debate is about which parties will privatise most or least of the NHS going forward. It's convenient for some to try and measure which party used PPP or PFI contracts the most but I've not seen a figure on this nor is it really a relevant debate, as these contracts have largely been discredited by all parties.
Why does anyone care so much who runs the NHS? It's a ridiculous debate, given the obvious inefficiency that we have to contend with while it remains as it is.

richard1960 11-06-2017 16:39
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902832)
PFI was a Labour initiative, wasn't it? They should not be allowed to dodge that truth.

Frankly I don't care whether the private or public sector run it, as long as we get better value for money, and provided that it remains free at the point of delivery.
I do surely when the private sector run it they have to make a profit.

So the PFI deals were astronomical with profits built in.

As will deals be that sees private sector companies buy up chunks of the NHS free at the point of delivery or not profit is key.

Osem 11-06-2017 17:35
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
On the other hand when there's no profit there's no incentive to keep costs down, in fact there's a tendency to overspend in order to justify current/higher budgets. You see that in local government when, come March every year, certain departments embark on a spending splurge in order to ensure the money they've been allocated is spent. Granted that's become less common in recent years due to the pressure on finances.

Neither system is perfect but it shouldn't be impossible to arrive at some form of compromise which takes the best of both. The NHS cannot continue to be run the way it is because it could swallow every penny of GDP and still need more. It's been tinkered with and allowed to develop in a largely ad-hoc manner for decades and putting that right will take decades, if anyone can grasp such a poisoned chalice.

OLD BOY 11-06-2017 18:22
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard1960 (Post 35902838)
I do surely when the private sector run it they have to make a profit.

So the PFI deals were astronomical with profits built in.

As will deals be that sees private sector companies buy up chunks of the NHS free at the point of delivery or not profit is key.
What you are not seeing is that the private sector can take a profit from the efficiencies they introduce whilst still saving money for the taxpayer.

The PFI debacle was a poorly thought out Labour initiative which did nothing to limit ongoing costs. It just shows the level of inexperience and business know-how in the Labour Party that resulted in this state of affairs.

RizzyKing 11-06-2017 18:26
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
I do love the response of "forget the past it's about the future" which of course benefits labour as they were responsible for more privatisation then the conservatives in the past and would do it again in the future because PFI fits right in with the labour philosophy of deliver now, pay later so the past is relevant because labour will repeat it. As long as there are muppets who will keep supporting labour it won't change because they just delude themselves that only the tories are a threat to the NHS.

denphone 11-06-2017 18:33
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35902875)
I do love the response of "forget the past it's about the future" which of course benefits labour as they were responsible for more privatisation then the conservatives in the past and would do it again in the future because PFI fits right in with the labour philosophy of deliver now, pay later so the past is relevant because labour will repeat it. As long as there are muppets who will keep supporting labour it won't change because they just delude themselves that only the tories are a threat to the NHS.
l think you will find again that both parties are as culpable as each other as it would be nice for once that the NHS was not used as a political football which sadly both parties use it as..

1andrew1 11-06-2017 19:08
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902832)
PFI was a Labour initiative, wasn't it? They should not be allowed to dodge that truth.

Frankly I don't care whether the private or public sector run it, as long as we get better value for money, and provided that it remains free at the point of delivery.

---------- Post added at 16:39 ---------- Previous post was at 16:33 ----------


Why does anyone care so much who runs the NHS? It's a ridiculous debate, given the obvious inefficiency that we have to contend with while it remains as it is.
PFI was a rebranding of the Conservative PPP scheme by the Labour Party. Both are costing us dearly but with an effective two-state system, both parties will be forgiven and re-elected. In fact, the same way that you seem to gloss over the Conservative Party's PPP suggests many have already forgiven the Conservative Party.

---------- Post added at 19:08 ---------- Previous post was at 19:06 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35902875)
I do love the response of "forget the past it's about the future" which of course benefits labour as they were responsible for more privatisation then the conservatives in the past and would do it again in the future because PFI fits right in with the labour philosophy of deliver now, pay later so the past is relevant because labour will repeat it. As long as there are muppets who will keep supporting labour it won't change because they just delude themselves that only the tories are a threat to the NHS.
What figures do you have to demonstrate your assertion?

richard1960 11-06-2017 19:12
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35902872)
What you are not seeing is that the private sector can take a profit from the efficiencies they introduce whilst still saving money for the taxpayer.

The PFI debacle was a poorly thought out Labour initiative which did nothing to limit ongoing costs. It just shows the level of inexperience and business know-how in the Labour Party that resulted in this state of affairs.
I can tell you now Old Boy university NHS trusts are already run similar to private buissness I work for one if you can show me the private sector can save cash on our staffing levels I will eat my x ray trolley.!

Let me tell you now private profit and public service are not good bedfellows.

As you have seen with the PFI which incidently was first drawn up by John Major and the last tory government before Labour.

Osem 11-06-2017 19:21
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard1960 (Post 35902894)
I can tell you now Old Boy university NHS trusts are already run similar to private buissness I work for one if you can show me the private sector can save cash on our staffing levels I will eat my x ray trolley.!

Let me tell you now private profit and public service are not good bedfellows.

As you have seen with the PFI which incidently was first drawn up by John Major and the last tory government before Labour.
PFI had/has its place, the trouble is that Brown used it to excess in order to buy votes whilst keeping huge capital spending off the books and thereby allow him to continue pushing the 'prudence' line. I have no idea who negotiated those contracts but they ought to have been shot.

richard1960 11-06-2017 22:00
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35902899)
PFI had/has its place, the trouble is that Brown used it to excess in order to buy votes whilst keeping huge capital spending off the books and thereby allow him to continue pushing the 'prudence' line. I have no idea who negotiated those contracts but they ought to have been shot.
I am in danger of agreeing with you serially .:)

And yes whoever negotiated them ought to face a firing squad.

OLD BOY 12-06-2017 09:09
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard1960 (Post 35902939)
I am in danger of agreeing with you serially .:)

And yes whoever negotiated them ought to face a firing squad.
On that, I think we are in total agreement.

Mr K 12-06-2017 18:12
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
EU nurse applicants drop by 96% since Brexit vote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40248366

Well that's going to help with the staffing crisis. Time the Govt. got off it's incompetent backside and gave reassurance to essential EU workers.

1andrew1 12-06-2017 21:11
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35903076)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40248366

Well that's going to help with the staffing crisis. Time the Govt. got off it's incompetent backside and gave reassurance to essential EU workers.
Even if it didn't do that, it could revise the 85-page nationality application form to make it easier for hardworking EU nationals to become British citizens.

Mr K 12-06-2017 21:46
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Mrs K, a nurse , is interested in a job move and has made a few initial enquiries on the many many jobs available. The phone hasn't stopped ringing with people asking her when she's going to apply. It's getting to the point when nurses can hold their own interview panels of potential employers. Wards in the same hospital are poaching staff from each other. Not a healthy state of affairs. Trying to persuade her to become an Agency nurse for more money but the silly woman has principles.

Kursk 13-06-2017 12:53
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35903115)
Mrs K, a nurse , is interested in a job move and has made a few initial enquiries on the many many jobs available. The phone hasn't stopped ringing with people asking her when she's going to apply. It's getting to the point when nurses can hold their own interview panels of potential employers. Wards in the same hospital are poaching staff from each other. Not a healthy state of affairs. Trying to persuade her to become an Agency nurse for more money but the silly woman has principles.
I love nurses (fond memories :p:).

My sincere regards to your wife. She is a gem and I wish her well in her job move :)

Osem 13-06-2017 13:40
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard1960 (Post 35902939)
I am in danger of agreeing with you serially .:)

And yes whoever negotiated them ought to face a firing squad.
Things can always get worse. ;)

Well according to some folks around here we shouldn't be talking about PFI any more because it's all 'irrelevant' to the current situation. Yeah and it'll continue to be 'irrelevant' for the many decades the NHS (aka taypayer) is going to have to pay the vast sums of money required under these awful contracts.

nomadking 13-06-2017 13:45
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
The total UK PFI debt is over £300bn for projects worth only £55bn. This means that nearly £250bn will be spent swelling the coffers of PFI groups.
Not sure how that equates to £2bn a year.

Hugh 13-06-2017 16:07
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35903188)
Not sure how that equates to £2bn a year.
The £2 billion per year is for the NHS PFI debts - the overall PFI debt is about £11 billion per year, I think.

Mr K 18-08-2017 18:19
Re: Crisis in the NHS
 
Quote:
Stephen Hawking has accused ministers of damaging the NHS, blaming the Conservatives in a passionate and sustained attack for slashing funding, weakening the health service though privatisation, demoralising staff by curbing pay and cutting social care support.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/...y_to_clipboard
It's something we all know, and just seem to accept, but good for Prof. Hawking. Wonder what he thinks to the £44,000 bathroom Jeremy Hunt ordered for his office ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7891846.html


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