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martyh 04-09-2016 09:58
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35857715)
Seems to me that if the doctors want the nuclear option then Hunt should just sack them. A few short weeks of no money and the sane, moderate majority will sign the new contract. The militants will have been weeded out and the shortfall should be made up by recruiting abroad.
It'll be interesting to see what the turnout will be

Chrysalis 04-09-2016 22:58
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857525)
Hunts lied all the way through, what makes you think this contract is worth the paper it's written on, shorter hours but with no extra staff and two extra days to cover, you do the maths and as much as I support anyone's right to withdraw labour I hope we would never hear of a doctor leaving a patient in need of treatment because they'd gone over hours
short question what would you do?

I think keeping it as a 5 day service is not a credible answer.

Arthurgray50@blu 04-09-2016 23:34
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Hugh, some doctors work 36 hours without having a decent break. When l worked in deep cleaning of Hospital Kitchens. The stories that l could tell you would fill a book.

I have the deepest respect of ALL hospital staff, wether Drs or Nurses or auxiallry staff. L saw the pressure they are under.

They deserve what ever they can make - and more. I was working in a Hospital in the Midlands and l met a young Doctor. And got talking. When we finished working. We went back the following morning at SIX AM. and she was still there from the day before. And you could see it. About 12 o clock. We went to the canteen. And she was asleep in the chair and her bleeper went off. She woke up and went back to work.

I will ALWAYS support the Doctors. Mr Hunt and Theresa cannot treat the people that save our lives like pieces of meat

TheDaddy 05-09-2016 05:12
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35857782)
short question what would you do?

I think keeping it as a 5 day service is not a credible answer.
Increasing it to 7 without putting any extra cash in isn't credible either, if we want a 7 day nhs we should be prepared to pay for it but considering iirc 10% of doctor vacancies haven't been filled I wouldn't hold your breath.

nomadking 05-09-2016 07:39
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857790)
Increasing it to 7 without putting any extra cash in isn't credible either, if we want a 7 day nhs we should be prepared to pay for it but considering iirc 10% of doctor vacancies haven't been filled I wouldn't hold your breath.
Nothing to really do with the new contract.
Quote:
Costs of implementing seven day services vary. In the two London trusts the standards for those services examined are already largely being met because of past investments. In most of the other trusts in the sample, the costs of implementing seven day services are typically 1.5% to 2% of total income or, expressed another way, a 5% to 6% addition to the cost of emergency admissions.
• Given the small sample and the apparent lower need for investment in London it is hard to calculate a potential cost for the English NHS as a whole. It is also likely that seven day services would progress best by local negotiation and carried out at varying speeds, partly because trusts start from different positions but also considering the wider system change likely to be necessary.
Quote:
Investment at the ‘front-end’ of the hospital (accident and emergency departments and admissions units with supporting diagnostics) can pay for itself in some trusts, by reducing unnecessary admissions and shortening lengths of stay. Two trusts in the sample, Salford Royal and Chesterfield, are examples of this. Payment by Results (PBR) rules were often set aside so that both the hospital and its commissioners could benefit from reducing admissions, where planned changes reduced the ‘net cost’ to the local NHS.
• Investment in seven day services after admission is unlikely to be cost-neutral in most trusts under the present configuration of services. However, it is fair to conclude from this small study that the move to seven day services does appear achievable, but it may be too expensive and unsustainable for all existing hospitals to move all their current range of services to a seven day basis. Reconfiguration of services may substantially reduce the cost, but this has not been tested in this research.
Quote:
The Prime Minister has announced details of a new, voluntary contract for GPs to deliver 7-day care for all patients by 2020. He has also unveiled proposals to deliver 7-day hospital services across half the country by 2018. These are the next steps in making England the first country in the world to provide a truly 7-day health service, underpinned by a strong economy and £10 billion of investment in the NHS. The plans are a key part of the government’s commitment to deliver security, stability and opportunity for the British people.
Quote:
The government is also committing £750 million over the next 3 years to fund improvements in premises, technology and modern ways of working, such as supporting federations and larger practices in providing 7-day services through a flexible range of face-to-face, telephone, email and Skype consultations.
Quote:
These concerns have led to calls for better service models in hospitals at the weekend from Health Education England, the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, the Royal College of Physicians, and the Royal College of Surgeons with the aim of not only improving patient outcomes but also to enrich the training of the next generation of NHS doctors.
The problem of diluted services and poorer outcomes at the weekend is NOT unique to the NHS. In fact, as the largest and most comprehensive health service in the world, the NHS is well positioned to solve the issue. There are encouraging examples of NHS organisations that have moved to making healthcare services more accessible seven days a week to avoid compromising safety and patient experience. These moves have been strongly supported by the main professional bodies and the media

TheDaddy 05-09-2016 08:18
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35857795)
Nothing to really do with the new contract.
That's how they're going to do the 7 days then, with Skype. Plus many these statistics and quotes you keep posting are about to be tested in court, much of what hunt has said is already proven to be bs, we'll know very soon how much of the rest of it is to

nomadking 05-09-2016 10:10
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857797)
That's how they're going to do the 7 days then, with Skype. Plus many these statistics and quotes you keep posting are about to be tested in court, much of what hunt has said is already proven to be bs, we'll know very soon how much of the rest of it is to
1) STILL ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STRIKE AND THE NEW CONTRACT. SO WHAT IS? Apart from wanting to be promoted for NOT practising medicine.
2) The quotes are from ACTUAL pilot studies by the MEDICAL profession.
Quote:
Two trusts in the sample, Salford Royal and Chesterfield,

TheDaddy 05-09-2016 16:21
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35857810)
1) STILL ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STRIKE AND THE NEW CONTRACT. SO WHAT IS? Apart from wanting to be promoted for NOT practising medicine.
2) The quotes are from ACTUAL pilot studies by the MEDICAL profession.
So were some of the studies hunt quoted except some of the studies were opinion pieces, most weren't independently peer reviewed, some derived data from the same study population and only a couple used data collected from the past decade and when the facts didn't fit his stance he simply lied about what was in them, HOPE THEY'RE NOT THE SAME STUDIES YOU'RE QUOTING FROM oh look I can shout to.

Besides which the strike in September has wisely been called of

https://www.bma.org.uk/collective-vo...t-negotiations

nomadking 05-09-2016 16:24
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857859)
So were some of the studies hunt quoted except some of the studies were opinion pieces, most weren't independently peer reviewed, some derived data from the same study population and only a couple used data collected from the past decade and when the facts didn't fit his stance he simply lied about what was in them, HOPE THEY'RE NOT THE SAME STUDIES YOU'RE QUOTING FROM oh look I can shout to.

Besides which the strike in September has wisely been called of

https://www.bma.org.uk/collective-vo...t-negotiations
Those pilot studies are examples of where 7-day is happening right now.
Quote:
Our sample of providers
9. The trusts in our sample were selected so that there would be a reasonable spread and mix of different size hospitals in different locations (London, large conurbations and more rural). They are all foundation trusts (FTs). Trusts were keen to explore the costs of seven day services, but were at different stages of implementation. We are grateful for their contribution to this work (Appendix 1). The trusts are:
• Aintree University Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
• Chelsea and Westminster Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
• Chesterfield Royal Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
• County Durham and Darlington NHS Foundation Trust
• Dorset County Hospital NHS Foundation Trust
• Guy’s and St Thomas’ NHS Foundation Trust
• Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust
• Wrightington, Wigan and Leigh NHS Foundation Trust.

martyh 05-09-2016 17:03
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857797)
That's how they're going to do the 7 days then, with Skype. Plus many these statistics and quotes you keep posting are about to be tested in court, much of what hunt has said is already proven to be bs, we'll know very soon how much of the rest of it is to
I can't see where Hunt has BS'd anyone unless i'm missing something ,he has cut the hours in the new contract ,he has given a pay rise in the new contract and he has put safeguards in place to prevent overwork all in the new contract ,so since the doctors have yet to adopt the new contract how can anyone say that Hunt has lied and BS'd everyone ,maybe i'm missing something :shrug:

TheDaddy 05-09-2016 17:36
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35857860)
Those pilot studies are examples of where 7-day is happening right now.
Let's hope those figures are correct then

Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35857868)
I can't see where Hunt has BS'd anyone unless i'm missing something ,he has cut the hours in the new contract ,he has given a pay rise in the new contract and he has put safeguards in place to prevent overwork all in the new contract ,so since the doctors have yet to adopt the new contract how can anyone say that Hunt has lied and BS'd everyone ,maybe i'm missing something :shrug:
Passing opinion pieces of as studies isn't bs, passing studies of as legit that haven't been peer reviewed isn't bs, claiming to have three independent reports without mentioning they use the same study data isn't bs and telling blatent lies about mortality rates, dead babies and strokes isn't bs, no wonder he has been doing everything he can to avoid his day in court.

martyh 05-09-2016 17:43
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857872)
Let's hope those figures are correct then



Passing opinion pieces of as studies isn't bs, passing studies of as legit that haven't been peer reviewed isn't bs, claiming to have three independent reports without mentioning they use the same study data isn't bs and telling blatent lies about mortality rates, dead babies and strokes isn't bs, no wonder he has been doing everything he can to avoid his day in court.
But what has any of that got to do with the new contract and the strikes .Whatever you think of the data that Hunt has used and the way he presented it ,it doesn't detract from the fact we still need a 7 day NHS and that the doctors have got what they asked for ,in some cases more.

nomadking 05-09-2016 18:12
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857872)
Let's hope those figures are correct then

Passing opinion pieces of as studies isn't bs, passing studies of as legit that haven't been peer reviewed isn't bs, claiming to have three independent reports without mentioning they use the same study data isn't bs and telling blatent lies about mortality rates, dead babies and strokes isn't bs, no wonder he has been doing everything he can to avoid his day in court.
The figures from the pilot studies are actual real figures.

The British Medical Journal wouldn't be publishing non-peer reviewed work. There are too many studies in the UK and from around for the world for it not to be an issue. Even if it isn't an issue, so what.

Quote:
These concerns have led to calls for better service models in hospitals at the weekend from Health Education England, the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges, the Royal College of Physicians, and the Royal College of Surgeons with the aim of not only improving patient outcomes but also to enrich the training of the next generation of NHS doctors.
Are they all wrong?

Quote:
The compassionate argument: patients should be entitled to receive the same standard of care regardless of the day of the week. Furthermore patients should be able to access care over the weekend if they need it regardless of whether it is an emergency. The potential benefits are a reduction in suffering and/or the provision of peace of mind.
Anything wrong with that sentiment?
Quote:
Salford Royal found that the introduction of the emergency village saved significant acute ward bed days by preventing admissions beyond the front door into acute ward beds. These savings largely paid for the additional investment in clinical and other staff in the emergency village.
Quote:
In at least some trusts with actual experience, the costs of seven day services at the front-end of the hospital can pay for themselves by reducing bed usage: partly reducing unnecessary admissions through better initial assessment and partly reducing length of stay by putting patients onto the right clinical pathway as soon as possible.

Arthurgray50@blu 05-09-2016 22:21
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
The biggest trouble with the NHS. Is that there is NOT enough being umped into it. And the Tories hate spending the Money into it, as they are not getting anything from it.

I was reading recently where, patients are being sent miles from home for treatment as there are no beds. In the region where they live.

We have elderly being kept in hospital as there is a shortage of care in the home. There fore they are taking up beds. Which can be used for Urgent care patients.

My neighbour has been moved SIX times to separate wards. As they needed the bed in the acute care dept. where he is. And he has been there one week tomorrow. And he cannot come home. As he has gone yellow. And been told that he has cancer. Lymphoma - I think that's what they call it. A large lump on his neck

Jeremy Hunt isn't a Dr. So is going on info from NHS England.

What the Government has to do is sit round a table and sort this mess out.

I strongly believe that Drs and Nurses should get the high wage deserve. And you cannot have SEVEN DAY service, unless you pay for it. If you were working Five days, and they wanted yu to work extra hours for nothing. Would you do it. I wouldn't do it.

nomadking 05-09-2016 22:34
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
OK, so where's this utter garbage(and that's putting very politely) about working extra hours and no extra money coming from?
Quote:
Maximum average 48 hour working week (reduced from 56) with doctors who opt out of the WTR capped at maximum average of 56 working hours per week.
Maximum 72 hours’ work in any seven day period (reduced from 91).Maximum shift length of 13 hours (reduced from 14 hours).
Maximum of five consecutive long (>10 hours) shifts (reduced from seven) with minimum 48 hours rest after a run of five consecutive long shifts (up from 11 hours rest).
Maximum of four consecutive night shifts (reduced from seven) with minimum 46 hours rest after a run of either three or four consecutive night shifts (up from 11 hours rest).
Maximum of four consecutive long, late evening shifts (>10 hours finishing after 11pm) with minimum 48 hours rest after four consecutive long, late evening shifts (up from 11 hours rest).
No doctor should be rostered to work more frequently than one weekend in two (a slightly different definition of weekends applies to F2 doctors for one rotation only).
Maximum eight consecutive shifts with 48 hours’ rest after eight consecutive shifts (reduced from 12 consecutive shifts), apart from low-intensity non-resident on-call rotas, for which a 12-day maximum applies.
No more than three rostered on-calls in seven days except by agreement, with guaranteed rest arrangements where overnight rest is disturbed.
Maximum 24-hour period for on call which cannot be worked consecutively except at weekends or by agreement that it is safe to do so.
Work rostered following on-call cannot exceed 10 hours, or 5 hours if rest provisions are expected to be breached.
Quote:
The Prime Minister has announced details of a new, voluntary contract for GPs to deliver 7-day care for all patients by 2020. He has also unveiled proposals to deliver 7-day hospital services across half the country by 2018. These are the next steps in making England the first country in the world to provide a truly 7-day health service, underpinned by a strong economy and £10 billion of investment in the NHS.
So less hours and £10billion. Does that sound like longer hours and no money?:rolleyes:

TheDaddy 05-09-2016 22:52
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35857874)
But what has any of that got to do with the new contract and the strikes .Whatever you think of the data that Hunt has used and the way he presented it ,it doesn't detract from the fact we still need a 7 day NHS and that the doctors have got what they asked for ,in some cases more.

If the rationales used to justify the 7 day service are false then perhaps we don't need as 7 day nhs after all.

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35857881)
The figures from the pilot studies are actual real figures.

The British Medical Journal wouldn't be publishing non-peer reviewed work. There are too many studies in the UK and from around for the world for it not to be an issue. Even if it isn't an issue, so what.

Are they all wrong?

Anything wrong with that sentiment?
If they came out of hunts mouth I wouldn't trust them and the validity of all claims is soon to be tested.

nomadking 05-09-2016 23:08
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857921)
If the rationales used to justify the 7 day service are false then perhaps we don't need as 7 day nhs after all.

---------- Post added at 22:52 ---------- Previous post was at 22:49 ----------
If they came out of hunts mouth I wouldn't trust them and the validity of all claims is soon to be tested.
Still absolutely nothing to do with the new contract and the strike.

How many studies do you need from around the world that have all firmly established the "weekend effect". It is the medical profession doing the studies.

TheDaddy 06-09-2016 06:46
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35857923)
Still absolutely nothing to do with the new contract and the strike.

How many studies do you need from around the world that have all firmly established the "weekend effect". It is the medical profession doing the studies.
I'd like to see independent British ones that aren't relying on using the same data and therefore aren't independent and this weekend effect is it like when hunt claimed more babies die at weekends when the truth is Thursdays are the worst day.

nomadking 06-09-2016 07:38
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Overall, that amounts to an extra 11,000 deaths a year among those admitted between Fridays and Mondays.
Prof Sir Bruce Keogh, NHS medical director, one of the authors of the landmark study, said it revealed an “inconvenient truth” which could no longer be ignored, and required an overhaul in the way services are run.
The research by University Hospital Birmingham NHS Foundation Trusts and University College London, examined the effect of hospital admission day on death rates across NHS England hospitals for 2013-201
Quote:
A British study of more than 25,000 patients found those who took ill at the start of the weekend have death rates one fifth higher than those admitted during regular working hours.
...
Researcher Dr Rahul Potluri, from Aston University, which led the ACALM study, said the differences were "extremely stark".
There will be more neonatal deaths on a Thursday simply because of their being more births that day of the week, It is about the proportions.
Quote:
The most common day for giving birth was Thursday (15%; 206 732 births and 205 632 maternities), and the least common was Sunday (12%; 167 159 births and 159 132 maternities).
Published in British Medical Journal.
Quote:
William L Palmer, honorary research fellow
A Bottle, senior lecturer
P Aylin, professor of epidemiology and public health
This study provides an evaluation of the “weekend effect” in obstetric care, covering a range of outcomes. The results would suggest approximately 770 perinatal deaths and 470 maternal infections per year above what might be expected if performance was consistent across women admitted, and babies born, on different days of the week.
...
MacFarlane published a paper in 1978 that showed a seven day cycle in birth numbers across England (and Wales) and that perinatal mortality was higher among babies born at weekends.Similar studies in the 1970s found similar phenomena in other developed countries.The delivery of obstetric care has changed dramatically since that time; however, where the weekend effect has been evaluated, this has predominantly been based on mortality. In setting out key challenges in obstetric care—albeit in a broader, global context—a paper from the World Health Organization highlighted ineffective referral to, and inadequate availability of, 24 hour quality services to emergency obstetric care services
...
Performance across four of the seven measures was significantly worse for women admitted, and babies born, at weekends. In particular, the perinatal mortality rate was 7.3 per 1000 babies delivered at weekends, 0.9 per 1000 higher than for weekdays (adjusted odds ratio 1.07, 95% confidence interval 1.02 to 1.13).
Quote:
Dharmintra Pasupathy, MRC/RCOG clinical research fellow
Angela M Wood, lecturer
Jill P Pell, Henry Mechan professor of public health
Michael Fleming, statistician
Gordon C S Smith, professor of obstetrics and gynaecology
Objective To determine the effect of time and day of birth on the risk of neonatal death at term.Design Population based retrospective cohort study.
Setting Data from the linked Scottish morbidity records, Stillbirth and Infant Death Survey, and birth certificate database of live births in Scotland, 1985-2004.
...
Conclusions Delivering an infant outside the normal working week was associated with an increased risk of neonatal death at term ascribed to intrapartum anoxia.
And there's plenty more where they came from.

TheDaddy 06-09-2016 08:07
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35857935)
There will be more neonatal deaths on a Thursday simply because of their being more births that day of the week, It is about the proportions.

Published in British Medical Journal.

And there's plenty more where they came from.
That's not what hunt said, his claims about strokes were proven to be nonsense as well. I wonder if any of these reports you link make up any of the much vaunted eight studies hunts based all his claims on that have proved false

nomadking 06-09-2016 08:26
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857938)
That's not what hunt said, his claims about strokes were proven to be nonsense as well. I wonder if any of these reports you link make up any of the much vaunted eight studies hunts based all his claims on that have proved false
Proved false? Or just excuses based on conjecture?
Quote:
In the summer, the BMA put a pay calculator on its website – so inaccurate it has since been removed – which told junior doctors their wages would be cut by 30-50 per cent.
Quote:
Objective: We assessed in-hospital mortality and utilization of invasive procedures following ischemic stork admissions on the weekend versus weekdays in the United States.
,,,
Conclusion: For stroke patients, weekend admission is associated with higher mortality and lower utilization of invasive procedures, and those who did undergo these interventions had higher rates of mortality and complications than their weekday counterparts.
Plenty of other medical conditions to choose from and plenty of other reports from plenty of other countries, all saying the same thing.

Still nothing to do with the new contract and the strike.

TheDaddy 06-09-2016 08:35
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35857939)
Proved false? Or just excuses based on conjecture?


Plenty of other medical conditions to choose from and plenty of other reports from plenty of other countries, all saying the same thing.

Still nothing to do with the new contract and the strike.
Yes proved false, as in he lied, you'd have thought he'd have saved himself the bother and used the plentiful supply of other countries research, perhaps he'll bring them to court

nomadking 06-09-2016 08:41
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857940)
Yes proved false, as in he lied, you'd have thought he'd have saved himself the bother and used the plentiful supply of other countries research, perhaps he'll bring them to court
Apart from anything else, if there was lying involved it would have been the DOCTORS doing the research. Any examples of this LYING?

Still nothing to do with the strike and the new contract. Nothing will ever change that fact.

Damien 06-09-2016 08:57
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35857874)
But what has any of that got to do with the new contract and the strikes .Whatever you think of the data that Hunt has used and the way he presented it ,it doesn't detract from the fact we still need a 7 day NHS and that the doctors have got what they asked for ,in some cases more.
I think the Junior Doctors suffered a set-back after the deal was accepted and then rejected. It's harder to see their justification now.

On the 7-day NHS though I do think the Goverment are trying to get it on the cheap. 2 extra days requires more funding surely? Substantially more funding. Maybe not 40% as I doubt their budgets scale like that but certainly a hefty increase. Then we also need more doctors. How is a 5 day week going to stretch to a 7 day week? You can adjust the timetables so the hospitals are staffed more on weekends but are we suggesting that the doctors sit around doing nothing during the week? If not then the coverage on weekdays will suffer. Spreading the same amount of butter on a large slice of toast will give you thinner..err..butterage.

Personally I would sooner seen the government abandon, for now, the plans for a 7 day NHS until such a time they have a clearer idea of how to fund it and how to staff it. If that requires reform into how we pay for the NHS (separate tax?) then so be it.

I also think any politician who says we can have better services at the same cost is a liar. We already don't push the boat out on spending compared to European countries. For whatever reforms we can introduce to help the solution to this problem is more money.

martyh 06-09-2016 13:40
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35857943)
I think the Junior Doctors suffered a set-back after the deal was accepted and then rejected. It's harder to see their justification now.

On the 7-day NHS though I do think the Goverment are trying to get it on the cheap. 2 extra days requires more funding surely? Substantially more funding. Maybe not 40% as I doubt their budgets scale like that but certainly a hefty increase. Then we also need more doctors. How is a 5 day week going to stretch to a 7 day week? You can adjust the timetables so the hospitals are staffed more on weekends but are we suggesting that the doctors sit around doing nothing during the week? If not then the coverage on weekdays will suffer. Spreading the same amount of butter on a large slice of toast will give you thinner..err..butterage.

Personally I would sooner seen the government abandon, for now, the plans for a 7 day NHS until such a time they have a clearer idea of how to fund it and how to staff it. If that requires reform into how we pay for the NHS (separate tax?) then so be it.

I also think any politician who says we can have better services at the same cost is a liar. We already don't push the boat out on spending compared to European countries. For whatever reforms we can introduce to help the solution to this problem is more money.

I always saw a 7 day NHS more of a load spreading exercise ,for example,if a hospital treats 100,000 in/out patients over 5 days surely it's better to treat the same 100,000 patients over 7 days ,less work load on the doctors and nurses.There will naturally have to be more doctors and nurses but the NHS is having a big recruitment drive anyway due to staff shortages .The main reason for a 7 day NHS is for out patients really imo

mrmistoffelees 06-09-2016 13:53
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthurgray50@blu (Post 35857912)
The biggest trouble with the NHS. Is that there is NOT enough being umped into it. And the Tories hate spending the Money into it, as they are not getting anything from it.

I was reading recently where, patients are being sent miles from home for treatment as there are no beds. In the region where they live.

We have elderly being kept in hospital as there is a shortage of care in the home. There fore they are taking up beds. Which can be used for Urgent care patients.

My neighbour has been moved SIX times to separate wards. As they needed the bed in the acute care dept. where he is. And he has been there one week tomorrow. And he cannot come home. As he has gone yellow. And been told that he has cancer. Lymphoma - I think that's what they call it. A large lump on his neck

Jeremy Hunt isn't a Dr. So is going on info from NHS England.

What the Government has to do is sit round a table and sort this mess out.

I strongly believe that Drs and Nurses should get the high wage deserve. And you cannot have SEVEN DAY service, unless you pay for it. If you were working Five days, and they wanted yu to work extra hours for nothing. Would you do it. I wouldn't do it.
How about we cut out some of the ridiculous management levels there are (especially at the PCT side of things)

How about we make sure that the IT projects are delivered on time and on budget ?

Do you know what Dr's earn Arthur?

Damien 06-09-2016 15:41
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35857978)
I always saw a 7 day NHS more of a load spreading exercise ,for example,if a hospital treats 100,000 in/out patients over 5 days surely it's better to treat the same 100,000 patients over 7 days ,less work load on the doctors and nurses.There will naturally have to be more doctors and nurses but the NHS is having a big recruitment drive anyway due to staff shortages .The main reason for a 7 day NHS is for out patients really imo
Thinking about it that does make a bit more sense. Patients aren't going to scale to the amount of appointments available. Although I guess they might do if accessibility increases, people who can't be bothered to get something looked at because they can't get the time off work might be more inclined to do so.

The problem with deciding who is right here is that it's just claim after counter-claim. I trust the doctors more than I trust the government and it irks me how Jeremy Hunt wears that poxy NHS badge when he is making public appearances but the fact the BMA accepted an agreement before it's members rejected it has eroded my trust in them as well.

Chrysalis 07-09-2016 00:45
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35857790)
Increasing it to 7 without putting any extra cash in isn't credible either, if we want a 7 day nhs we should be prepared to pay for it but considering iirc 10% of doctor vacancies haven't been filled I wouldn't hold your breath.
hence why I said more money needs to go in the pot.

A way I would support wage increases is that staff can be offered an increase, but in return they agree to only work for the NHS, so their work time is exclusive to the NHS and as such no conflict of interest in doing lucrative out of hours private work.

Give and take.

martyh 07-09-2016 06:53
Re: Still support them
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35857993)
Thinking about it that does make a bit more sense. Patients aren't going to scale to the amount of appointments available. Although I guess they might do if accessibility increases, people who can't be bothered to get something looked at because they can't get the time off work might be more inclined to do so.

The problem with deciding who is right here is that it's just claim after counter-claim. I trust the doctors more than I trust the government and it irks me how Jeremy Hunt wears that poxy NHS badge when he is making public appearances but the fact the BMA accepted an agreement before it's members rejected it has eroded my trust in them as well.
I would say that is very likely but it would also means that illnesses would be identified earlier rather than when someone is absolutely desperate and being an in patient rather than a more preferable out patient.The same would apply to GP surgeries ,better accessibility at the weekends would most likely mean people attending who would normally just put up with their symptoms because they cannot get time away from work again meaning the illness is caught earlier ,i would fall into that bracket ,my arthritis was developing over a few years but i didn't go to the doctors to get treatment or a diagnosis because i felt losing money from work took priority, instead when it was absolutely unbearable i ended up in A&E and the treatment regime was much more aggressive and therefore more costly and risky to me personally

yorkshireborn 07-09-2016 15:41
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
wot get my goat is the bleating on about why the docs are striking

its not about the funding of the NHS its not about the number of doctors its not about the welfare of patients

its about getting paid more for working weekends.
that's it

and when this is done the nurses will start want their cut.

martyh 07-09-2016 17:57
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkshireborn (Post 35858159)
wot get my goat is the bleating on about why the docs are striking

its not about the funding of the NHS its not about the number of doctors its not about the welfare of patients

its about getting paid more for working weekends.
that's it

and when this is done the nurses will start want their cut.
Which they are

nomadking 07-09-2016 18:34
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35858182)
Which they are
I take it you're referring to the new contract.

They're being offered not only a 10-11% overall increase regardless of which day that involves. Plus if they work more than a certain number of weekends they get a bonus of the total of their annual salary, ie not just the weekend hours. 13 or more weekends gets 10% bonus, ranging down to 3% for 7 weekends. Sounds pretty good. Remember this is not the normal annual pay rise/negotiations, this is in addition to that.

martyh 07-09-2016 18:54
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35858197)
I take it you're referring to the new contract.

They're being offered not only a 10-11% overall increase regardless of which day that involves. Plus if they work more than a certain number of weekends they get a bonus of the total of their annual salary, ie not just the weekend hours. 13 or more weekends gets 10% bonus, ranging down to 3% for 7 weekends. Sounds pretty good. Remember this is not the normal annual pay rise/negotiations, this is in addition to that.
Yep ,now we wait for someone to come along and tell us that is wrong because they don't like the government and they don't like Hunt and the doctors are special

heero_yuy 07-09-2016 18:58
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35858200)
Yep ,now we wait for someone to come along and tell us that is wrong because they don't like the government and they don't like Hunt and the doctors are special
You forgot the :rolleyes:

martyh 07-09-2016 19:01
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkshireborn (Post 35858159)

and when this is done the nurses will start want their cut.
coincidentally ,the mother of Dr Ellen McCourt (the woman who's got the doctors all fired up) tried to get the nurses out on strike when she was head of the nurses union and basically got told by the nurses to do one .

heero_yuy 08-09-2016 08:39
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35858205)
coincidentally ,the mother of Dr Ellen McCourt (the woman who's got the doctors all fired up) tried to get the nurses out on strike when she was head of the nurses union and basically got told by the nurses to do one .
So a noted rabble rouser?

Hugh 25-09-2016 12:50
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37463929
Quote:
Junior doctors in England have suspended a series of five-day strikes over the next three months, following concerns over patient safety.

Walkouts in October, November and December, in protest against a new contract, had been planned.

Osem 25-09-2016 13:02
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Hmmm..

They've been telling us all along that they're the experts on what's going on in the NHS and assuring us their intended strike action wouldn't be putting lives at risk. Now suddenly they're presenting this welcome change of heart as though it's been brought about by some new set of circumstances previously unknown. :confused:

Frankly I'd have a lot more respect for them if they just admitted they got it wrong, now accept that their strike plans would have put patient lives at risk so have abandoned that course of action for good. There's no real sin in accepting an error of judgement and proving, for any doubters, that they do put patient lives at the top of their list of priorities.

martyh 25-09-2016 13:14
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35860450)
Hmmm..

They've been telling us all along that they're the experts on what's going on in the NHS and assuring us their intended strike action wouldn't be putting lives at risk. Now suddenly they're presenting this welcome change of heart as though it's been brought about by some new set of circumstances previously unknown. :confused:

Frankly I'd have a lot more respect for them if they just admitted they got it wrong, now accept that their strike plans would have put patient lives at risk so have abandoned that course of action for good. There's no real sin in accepting an error of judgement and proving, for any doubters, that they do put patient lives at the top of their list of priorities.
It stinks to me .I'll bet that the doctors themselves have told the chief instigator of all of this(Dr Ellen McCourt) that enough is enough ,we got what we wanted and more .I'm even prepared to bet in the next few weeks there is an announcement from the BMA that the doctors are prepared to accept the new contract

TheDaddy 25-09-2016 20:02
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35860455)
It stinks to me .I'll bet that the doctors themselves have told the chief instigator of all of this(Dr Ellen McCourt) that enough is enough ,we got what we wanted and more .I'm even prepared to bet in the next few weeks there is an announcement from the BMA that the doctors are prepared to accept the new contract
Wasn't it the doctors themselves that rejected the deal the bma accepted :shrug:

Osem 25-09-2016 20:05
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35860455)
It stinks to me .I'll bet that the doctors themselves have told the chief instigator of all of this(Dr Ellen McCourt) that enough is enough ,we got what we wanted and more .I'm even prepared to bet in the next few weeks there is an announcement from the BMA that the doctors are prepared to accept the new contract
It'll be interesting to see if you're right. I can't help thinking that politics has been a major factor in this dispute and a great many doctors may agree that things need to change but haven't been at all comfortable about the way this has been handled by their representatives. To so stridently refute claims that patient safety would be put at risk for so long only to suddenly now claim the situation's changes materially, lives will be put at risk and that's the reason for the change of heart is the sort of thing politicians are renowned for and that should never be an accusation able to be levelled at our doctors upon whom we all rely sooner or later.

Chrysalis 25-09-2016 22:12
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
to the mods, this thread seems broken, it shows a page 17 but when I click it, it just reloads page 16.

TheDaddy 26-09-2016 02:23
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrysalis (Post 35860520)
to the mods, this thread seems broken, it shows a page 17 but when I click it, it just reloads page 16.
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...0#post35859570

Btw the verdict is in on Wednesday from the courts...

Hugh 28-09-2016 14:50
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
The verdict is in...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37481677
Quote:
Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt has won a High Court fight with junior doctors in England over a new contract.

The group Justice for Health mounted a legal bid arguing the contract was "unsafe and unsustainable" and Mr Hunt did not have the power to impose it.

But Mr Justice Green ruled the health secretary had acted "squarely" within his powers in what he did.

The judge noted that while he approved the contract, he was not necessarily compelling NHS trusts to introduce it.

The ruling comes just a week before the new terms and conditions are due to start to be rolled out.

The judge also considered whether Mr Hunt's actions lacked clarity and transparency and whether he acted irrationally in pursuing the new contract on the basis he believed it would help improve the quality of care at weekends.

On both counts, Mr Justice Green sided with the government.

Osem 28-09-2016 16:19
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Obviously one set of experts disagreed with another as is usually the case.

Let's hope this matter is soon put to bed (pardon the pun) because the last thing anyone wants is further chaos in the NHS at the worst possible time of year.

TheDaddy 28-09-2016 19:40
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35860839)
Let's look a bit more in depth at what was said

http://www.justiceforhealth.co.uk/

Mr K 28-09-2016 19:56
Re: Junior Doctors Prepare For First Full Walk-Out
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35860852)
Obviously one set of experts disagreed with another as is usually the case.

Let's hope this matter is soon put to bed (pardon the pun) because the last thing anyone wants is further chaos in the NHS at the worst possible time of year.
Surely the NHS should be able to cope all year round if we all dug in our pockets and properly funded it instead of demanding tax cuts.


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