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Damien 18-03-2019 15:10
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35987313)
I meant that climate change activism resembles a belief system. Any that deny it are accused of heresy. You're a non-believer, an outcast, the peddler of evil words against the Righteous. If was centuries ago you'd be burnt at the stake.

I read about the cross-over a while back and have sought out the paper I read. Worth a read. Interesting reveal into the human creature if nothing else.

http://oro.open.ac.uk/46740/1/94_98_Bhagwat_3.pdf
I think ultimately you can make this argument about a lot of things of which there is a scientific consensus and some controversy over it. It's not uncommon to hear proportions of intelligent design describe evolution, they call it Darwinism, as a belief system too. I am sure there was some aspects of the way climate change activists act that share characterisations with those in a belief system but the underlying 'belief' is based on an overwhelming scientific consensus and not faith.

The comparison to intelligent design is quite apt really because they behave in the same way. There is a lot of talk, lots of attention, but little science behind it and when challenged on this they resort to accusations of a scientific establishment shutting them out. They also like to dress it up as an open discussion of ideas as if that's what decides what is true. Science isn't an open discussion of ideas in which open minded people challenge each other and all views are equally valid however much they wish it was.

In the end there isn't much reason not to believe The Royal Society and NASA know better than people who have little grounding in the subject.

OLD BOY 18-03-2019 16:41
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35987316)
I think ultimately you can make this argument about a lot of things of which there is a scientific consensus and some controversy over it. It's not uncommon to hear proportions of intelligent design describe evolution, they call it Darwinism, as a belief system too. I am sure there was some aspects of the way climate change activists act that share characterisations with those in a belief system but the underlying 'belief' is based on an overwhelming scientific consensus and not faith.

The comparison to intelligent design is quite apt really because they behave in the same way. There is a lot of talk, lots of attention, but little science behind it and when challenged on this they resort to accusations of a scientific establishment shutting them out. They also like to dress it up as an open discussion of ideas as if that's what decides what is true. Science isn't an open discussion of ideas in which open minded people challenge each other and all views are equally valid however much they wish it was.

In the end there isn't much reason not to believe The Royal Society and NASA know better than people who have little grounding in the subject.
Very strange responses from you, Damien. I have already provided a scientific fact for you, which you have conveniently ignored. Instead of making it personal and shouting me down, why not answer the question I put? Which is that the amount of carbon absorbed into the atmosphere is within normal parameters, currently standing at 0.04%. So how can that be linked to warming?

jonbxx 18-03-2019 16:46
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987306)

[/COLOR]
But the question you have omitted relates to the amount of carbon emissions the atmosphere absorbs.

I am more concerned with the impact of that on our oceans, which is where most of it goes.
OK, you could reword my third question to ask;
  • Is the amount of atmospheric CO2 rising?

If that makes things tidier. Measuring CO2 absorbtion by the oceans is fairly straightforward by monitoring pH and inorganic carbonates. The difficulty comes in where there temperature changes along with the atmospheric CO2 levels

Damien 18-03-2019 16:53
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987343)
Very strange responses from you, Damien. I have already provided a scientific fact for you, which you have conveniently ignored. Instead of making it personal and shouting me down, why not answer the question I put? Which is that the amount of carbon absorbed into the atmosphere is within normal parameters, currently standing at 0.04%. So how can that be linked to warming?
Why do you need an answer from me? I am not a climatologist which is why I defer to expects in those fields. I don't believe I need to know everything about a subject to accept it's true.

I don't even know the source for carbon being within normal parameters. However I did look up why a small amount of carbon can impact temperatures: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...oxide-makes-u/

Hugh 18-03-2019 17:43
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35987313)
I meant that climate change activism resembles a belief system. Any that deny it are accused of heresy. You're a non-believer, an outcast, the peddler of evil words against the Righteous. If was centuries ago you'd be burnt at the stake.

I read about the cross-over a while back and have sought out the paper I read. Worth a read. Interesting reveal into the human creature if nothing else.

http://oro.open.ac.uk/46740/1/94_98_Bhagwat_3.pdf
This paper explaining what actions are necessary to get more positive action on tackling Climate Change by grassroots action, not just depending on Governments policies.

Quote:
Conclusion

Climate change has become the most prominent environmental issue of the 21st century and it has galvanised public support for many other environmental issues including, but not limited to, agriculture and food security, biodiversity conservation, deforestation, desertification, land degradation, and poverty alleviation. However, when it comes to the intergovernmental agreements on legally binding targets for the reduction in carbon emissions, the political process has been disappointingly slow and frustrating. Our analysis of climate change as a belief system suggests that addressing climate change may require a shift of focus to a very different level and through the grassroots actors rather than political leaders. The interconnected and interdependent interac- tion between the actors we identify will mediate – quite independent of the political process – the spread of the idea of climate change in a fashion similar to the spread of religious beliefs. Although this may be particularly unsettling to the predominantly secular actors of climate change we argue that this mode of spread will help to influence public opinion and further action on climate change.

OLD BOY 18-03-2019 17:45
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35987351)
Why do you need an answer from me? I am not a climatologist which is why I defer to expects in those fields. I don't believe I need to know everything about a subject to accept it's true.

I don't even know the source for carbon being within normal parameters. However I did look up why a small amount of carbon can impact temperatures: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...oxide-makes-u/
I wasn't meaning to press you for an answer, Damien! I have not been able to find the answer to that question myself. My response was prompted by your comment that there was no scientific basis to the views climate sceptics hold. I gave you one example.

Nobody is arguing that carbon isn't a greenhouse gas. However, if carbon absorption levels have not changed significantly, so what?

If you don't know everything about a subject as you claim here, then all the more reason to listen to alternative arguments rather than dismiss them out of hand.

Until I read about the hockey stick graph deception, I also assumed also that the claims of these scientists were correct. Not any more.

Hugh 18-03-2019 17:49
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987384)
I wasn't meaning to press you for an answer, Damien! I have not been able to find the answer to that question myself. My response was prompted by your comment that there was no scientific basis to the views climate sceptics hold. I gave you one example.

Nobody is arguing that carbon isn't a greenhouse gas. However, if carbon absorption levels have not changed significantly, so what?

If you don't know everything about a subject as you claim here, then all the more reason to listen to alternative arguments rather than dismiss them out of hand.

Until I read about the hockey stick graph deception, I also assumed also that the claims of these scientists were correct. Not any more.
https://www.newscientist.com/article...-proven-wrong/
Quote:
The hockey graph was first published in a 1999 paper (pdf) by Michael Mann and colleagues, which was an extension of a 1998 study in Nature. The graph was highlighted in the 2001 report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC).

Since 2001, there have been repeated claims that the reconstruction is at best seriously flawed and at worst a fraud, no more than an artefact of the statistical methods used to create it (see The great hockey stick debate).

Details of the claims and counterclaims involve lengthy and arcane statistical arguments, so let’s skip straight to the 2006 report of the US National Academy of Science (pdf). The academy was asked by Congress to assess the validity of temperature reconstructions, including the hockey stick.

“Array of evidence”
The report states: “The basic conclusion of Mann et al. (1998, 1999) was that the late 20th century warmth in the Northern Hemisphere was unprecedented during at least the last 1000 years. This conclusion has subsequently been supported by an array of evidence that includes both additional large-scale surface temperature reconstructions and pronounced changes in a variety of local proxy indicators, such as melting on ice caps and the retreat of glaciers around the world”.

Most researchers would agree that while the original hockey stick can – and has – been improved in a number of ways, it was not far off the mark. Most later temperature reconstructions fall within the error bars of the original hockey stick. Some show far more variability leading up to the 20th century than the hockey stick, but none suggest that it has been warmer at any time in the past 1000 years than in the last part of the 20th century.

It is true that there are big uncertainties about the accuracy of all past temperature reconstructions, and that these uncertainties have sometimes been ignored or glossed over by those who have presented the hockey stick as evidence for global warming.

The problems
Climate scientists, however, are only too aware of the problems (see Climate myths: It was warmer during the Medieval period), and the uncertainties were both highlighted by Mann’s original paper and by others at the time it was published.

Update: as suggested by the academy in its 2006 report, Michael Mann and his colleagues have reconstructed northern hemisphere temperatures for the past 2000 years using a broader set of proxies than was available for the original study and updated measurements from the recent past.

The new reconstruction has been generated using two statistical methods, both different to that used in the original study. Like other temperature reconstructions done since 2001 (see graph), it shows greater variability than the original hockey stick. Yet again, though, the key conclusion is the same: it’s hotter now than it has been for at least 1000 years.

In fact, independent evidence, from ice cores and sea sediments for instance, suggest the last time the planet approached this degree of warmth was during the interglacial period preceding the last ice age over 100,000 years ago. It might even be hotter now than it has been for at least a million years.

Further back in the past, though, it certainly has been hotter – and the world has been a very different place. The crucial point is that our modern civilisation has been built on the basis of the prevailing climate and sea levels. As these change, it will cause major problems.

OLD BOY 18-03-2019 19:06
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Thank you for that, Hugh. The point I was making was that the original algorithm used would have produced a spike, whatever figures you put into the formula. It was either a deliberate manipulation or a crass mistake, but either way, it proves that no-one should stand back from questioning scientific conclusions. They are human to, and can deceive and they can make mistakes.

Mr K 18-03-2019 19:48
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987414)
Thank you for that, Hugh. The point I was making was that the original algorithm used would have produced a spike, whatever figures you put into the formula. It was either a deliberate manipulation or a crass mistake, but either way, it proves that no-one should stand back from questioning scientific conclusions. They are human to, and can deceive and they can make mistakes.
I expect King Canute said much the same as the waters rose...... ;)

Pierre 18-03-2019 20:47
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987380)
This paper explaining what actions are necessary to get more positive action on tackling Climate Change by grassroots action, not just depending on Governments policies.
Are you trying to explain to me the paper that I posted and had already read and fully understood?

Hugh 18-03-2019 20:51
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35987451)
Are you trying to explain to me the paper that I posted and had already read and fully understood?
No, just reinforcing it was supporting the consensus of Climate Change - you’re not the only one reading the comments.

1andrew1 18-03-2019 21:01
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987414)
Thank you for that, Hugh. The point I was making was that the original algorithm used would have produced a spike, whatever figures you put into the formula. It was either a deliberate manipulation or a crass mistake, but either way, it proves that no-one should stand back from questioning scientific conclusions. They are human to, and can deceive and they can make mistakes.
Hugh's quote doesn't support your point though. It talks about refinements based upon more extensive data available now that was not available then.

ianch99 19-03-2019 09:05
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987306)
By 'open minded' I meant that I don't accept everything at face value. And what I said was that there is not a proven link between carbon emissions and warming because the atmosphere absorbs so little carbon.

Incidentally, the reason scientists are not trying to have an open debate about this is because they are shouted down and threatened.

Anyway, it is clear you are just sucking it all in so you won't want to consider anything which is contrary to the establishment view, so 'nuff said.
'Sucking it all in", "establishment view" .. really?

Let me put it this way: if you are right, the case is not proven and so we should delay until the doubters are convinced, we would arrive at the point where it is too late. Is this a prudent strategy?

Maybe we should proceed on a basis of caution and assume the case for climate change has been provisionally proven and attempt to slow down or reverse the effects. What is the worst that can happen, a cleaner planet?

papa smurf 19-03-2019 09:26
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987306)
By 'open minded' I meant that I don't accept everything at face value. And what I said was that there is not a proven link between carbon emissions and warming because the atmosphere absorbs so little carbon.

Incidentally, the reason scientists are not trying to have an open debate about this is because they are shouted down and threatened.

Anyway, it is clear you are just sucking it all in so you won't want to consider anything which is contrary to the establishment view, so 'nuff said.

---------- Post added at 14:22 ---------- Previous post was at 14:21 ----------


But the question you have omitted relates to the amount of carbon emissions the atmosphere absorbs.

I am more concerned with the impact of that on our oceans, which is where most of it goes.
:clap:

OLD BOY 19-03-2019 13:16
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35987456)
Hugh's quote doesn't support your point though. It talks about refinements based upon more extensive data available now that was not available then.
I was talking about the apparent deception of the scientists who produced the original hockey stick graph that
initially led me to question what we were being told.

---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35987501)
'Sucking it all in", "establishment view" .. really?

Let me put it this way: if you are right, the case is not proven and so we should delay until the doubters are convinced, we would arrive at the point where it is too late. Is this a prudent strategy?

Maybe we should proceed on a basis of caution and assume the case for climate change has been provisionally proven and attempt to slow down or reverse the effects. What is the worst that can happen, a cleaner planet?
Why so argumentative? I was simply challenging the view that carbon emissions were the cause of any global warming and whether temperatures were being adjusted to take into account legitimate matters or were being manipulated.

I don't recall saying we should not be doing anything and in fact I have welcomed any attempt to clean up the atmosphere.

pip08456 19-03-2019 13:19
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Clearly, from 2001 the UN IPCC and many policy makers took a hugely bold step in buying into Michael Mann’s re-writing of the historical temperature record. Mann had been a totally unknown scientist at that time and had only received his PhD in 1998 (and in somewhat odd circumstances). Was consensus climate science altered to fit a political agenda? Let’s examine the key issues so that readers may make a more informed judgement as to culpability.
https://principia-scientific.org/sho...climate-fraud/

OLD BOY 19-03-2019 13:32
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35987561)
They certainly did a hatchet job on him!! :D

Hugh 19-03-2019 13:48
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35987561)
The organisation who state that CO2 isn’t a greenhouse gas and don’t believe vaccinations are a major contributor to health improvements.

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/...limate-change/
Quote:
A recent article in Principia Scientific International summarizes 20 recent studies showing that solar activity correlates with long term trends in climate change. This is an excellent example of how misinformation campaigns meant to sow doubt and confusion work.

First, we need to consider the source. PSI is not a scientific organization or publication, it is a propaganda front group trying to appear as a scientific organization. This is very common – giving an organization a neutral sounding scientific name that does not reflect its true agenda.

PSI claims, completely contrary to the scientific consensus, that CO2 is not even a greenhouse gas. They actually argue that it causes no warming at all, and in fact may have a cooling effect on the environment. They further argue that wind turbines cause illness, a claim that is demonstrably false.

To put their scientific credibility into perspective, they also maintain that:

Educated parents can either get their children out of harm’s way or continue living inside one of the largest most evil lies in history, that vaccines – full of heavy metals, viral diseases, mycoplasma, fecal material, DNA fragments from other species, formaldehyde, polysorbate 80 (a sterilizing agent) – are a miracle of modern medicine.

They claim vaccines don’t even work and are just full of “toxins” – what we call, “The toxin gambit.”

Mr K 19-03-2019 13:52
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987570)
The organisation who state that CO2 isn’t a greenhouse gas and don’t believe vaccinations are a major contributor to health improvements.

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/...limate-change/
Why does all this loony garbage originate from the same country?

Hugh 19-03-2019 14:04
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Climate Change denial organisation PSI are based and registered in the U.K.

Mr K 19-03-2019 14:06
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
:D
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987575)
Sorry to disappoint you, but the Climate Change denial organisation PSI are based and registered in the U.K.
Lol ! We're getting more Americanised by the day...

Damien 19-03-2019 14:14
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Anti-vaccination is an increasing trend as well after it had died down a bit after the MMR stuff....

1andrew1 19-03-2019 23:28
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987570)
The organisation who state that CO2 isn’t a greenhouse gas and don’t believe vaccinations are a major contributor to health improvements.

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/...limate-change/
Lol, why do people fall for such organisations' nonsense?

ianch99 20-03-2019 07:45
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987553)
I was talking about the apparent deception of the scientists who produced the original hockey stick graph that
initially led me to question what we were being told.

---------- Post added at 13:16 ---------- Previous post was at 13:11 ----------



Why so argumentative? I was simply challenging the view that carbon emissions were the cause of any global warming and whether temperatures were being adjusted to take into account legitimate matters or were being manipulated.

I don't recall saying we should not be doing anything and in fact I have welcomed any attempt to clean up the atmosphere.
But why are you challenging the scientific consensus? If it is not on the basis of "knowing you are right" then it must be on the basis of verified peer reviewed evidence, correct? If the latter then please share ..

OLD BOY 20-03-2019 07:48
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35987657)
But why are you challenging the scientific consensus? If it is not on the basis of "knowing you are right" then it must be on the basis of verified peer reviewed evidence, correct? If the latter then please share ..
Even the 'scientific consensus' admits it cannot prove the link! Why can you not understand the difference between carbon emissions and the absorption of carbon into the atmosphere?

ianch99 20-03-2019 07:58
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987660)
Even the 'scientific consensus' admits it cannot prove the link! Why can you not understand the difference between carbon emissions and the absorption of carbon into the atmosphere?
The wikipedia article cites these observations:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Scientif...climate_change

Quote:
Scientific consensus

Several studies of the consensus have been undertaken.[1] Among the most-cited is a 2013 study of nearly 12,000 abstracts of peer-reviewed papers on climate science published since 1990, of which just over 4,000 papers expressed an opinion on the cause of recent global warming. Of these, 97% agree, explicitly or implicitly, that global warming is happening and is human-caused.[2][3] It is "extremely likely"[4] that this warming arises from "human activities, especially emissions of greenhouse gases"[4] in the atmosphere.[5] Natural change alone would have had a slight cooling effect rather than a warming effect.[6][7][8][9]

This scientific opinion is expressed in synthesis reports, by scientific bodies of national or international standing, and by surveys of opinion among climate scientists. Individual scientists, universities, and laboratories contribute to the overall scientific opinion via their peer-reviewed publications, and the areas of collective agreement and relative certainty are summarised in these respected reports and surveys.[10] The IPCC's Fifth Assessment Report (AR5) was completed in 2014.[11] Its conclusions are summarized below:

"Warming of the climate system is unequivocal, and since the 1950s, many of the observed changes are unprecedented over decades to millennia."[12]
"Atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide have increased to levels unprecedented in at least the last 800,000 years."[13]
Human influence on the climate system is clear.[14] It is extremely likely (95-100% probability)[15] that human influence was the dominant cause of global warming between 1951-2010.[14]
"Increasing magnitudes of [global] warming increase the likelihood of severe, pervasive, and irreversible impacts."[16]
"A first step towards adaptation to future climate change is reducing vulnerability and exposure to present climate variability."[17]
"The overall risks of climate change impacts can be reduced by limiting the rate and magnitude of climate change"[16]
Without new policies to mitigate climate change, projections suggest an increase in global mean temperature in 2100 of 3.7 to 4.8 °C, relative to pre-industrial levels (median values; the range is 2.5 to 7.8 °C including climate uncertainty).[18]
The current trajectory of global greenhouse gas emissions is not consistent with limiting global warming to below 1.5 or 2°C, relative to pre-industrial levels.[19] Pledges made as part of the Cancún Agreements are broadly consistent with cost-effective scenarios that give a "likely" chance (66–100% probability) of limiting global warming (in 2100) to below 3 °C, relative to pre-industrial levels.[20]
National and international science academies and scientific societies have assessed current scientific opinion on global warming. These assessments are generally consistent with the conclusions of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

Some scientific bodies have recommended specific policies to governments, and science can play a role in informing an effective response to climate change. Policy decisions, however, may require value judgements and so are not included in the scientific opinion.[21][22]

No scientific body of national or international standing maintains a formal opinion dissenting from any of these main points. The last national or international scientific body to drop dissent was the American Association of Petroleum Geologists,[23] which in 2007[24] updated its statement to its current non-committal position.[25] Some other organizations, primarily those focusing on geology, also hold non-committal positions.
This seems to conclude that greenhouse gas emissions do indeed correlate with atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide.

OLD BOY 20-03-2019 10:20
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35987668)
The wikipedia article cites these observations:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Scientif...climate_change



This seems to conclude that greenhouse gas emissions do indeed correlate with atmospheric concentrations of carbon dioxide, methane, and nitrous oxide.
I know. But what I said was that there is no proven link. The article you provided says just that. It is an opinion and opinions should be challenged if there are factors that point in the other direction.

Blaming what is happening to climate on carbon emissions is an easy pointer to causation. However, it doesn't really add up, does it?

Further investigation is required and the sensible arguments against explored instead of being ridiculed because the scientists might get embarrassed if they had to climb down now.

Hugh 20-03-2019 10:23
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987694)
I know. But what I said was that there is no proven link. The article you provided says just that. It is an opinion and opi ions should be challenged if there are factors that point in the other direction.

Blaming what is happening to climate on carbon emissions is an easy pointer to causation. However, it doesn't really add up, does it?

Further investigation is required and the sensible arguments against explored instead of being ridiculed because the scientists might get embarrassed if they had to climb down now.
You appear to be confusing opinion and (scientific) theory - one is someone's thoughts on a matter, and the other is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results.

Yes, scientific theory can (and often are) modified by new findings or challenges, but equating "opinions" with scientific theory is like saying you don't believe in gravity, as it's only an opinion...

OLD BOY 20-03-2019 10:45
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987698)
You appear to be confusing opinion and (scientific) theory - one is someone's thoughts on a matter, and the other is an explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can be repeatedly tested and verified in accordance with the scientific method, using accepted protocols of observation, measurement, and evaluation of results.

Yes, scientific theory can (and often are) modified by new findings or challenges, but equating "opinions" with scientific theory is like saying you don't believe in gravity, as it's only an opinion...
Except that I have given reasons for my scepticism, and the issue of the link between carbon emissions and the very small amount of these absorbed into the atmosphere has not been answered. That's because you can't so you are ignoring the actual question.

Hugh 20-03-2019 11:04
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987703)
Except that I have given reasons for my scepticism, and the issue of the link between carbon emissions and the very small amount of these absorbed into the atmosphere has not been answered. That's because you can't so you are ignoring the actual question.
Not ignoring it - someone else has answered it, you don't like the answer, so pointless discussing it further; you are equating your opinion against that of thousands of climate scientists and tens of thousands of peer-reviewed scientific studies.

papa smurf 20-03-2019 11:39
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Well in the face of all this devastating science i suppose you'll all stop flying around the globe for pleasure,stay local and cycle everywhere.

OLD BOY 20-03-2019 13:10
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987710)
Not ignoring it - someone else has answered it, you don't like the answer, so pointless discussing it further; you are equating your opinion against that of thousands of climate scientists and tens of thousands of peer-reviewed scientific studies.
What? The question of carbon emissions v absorption has not been answered, actually. I agree he replied but he did not answer the question I put. That's because he cannot, and neither can the scientists.

Hugh 20-03-2019 14:06
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35987715)
Well in the face of all this devastating science i suppose you'll all stop flying around the globe for pleasure,stay local and cycle everywhere.
Ah, the old "If you don’t give up everything, there’s no point in doing anything" argument...

Strange, no one uses this argument for trying to prevent drunk driving, murders, rape, and other crime - "well, I assume since the police can’t catch all the criminals, it’s pointless trying to catch any, so may as well not bother".

It’s incremental - if we recognise there’s a problem, we take steps to solve the problem, using varying initiatives and solutions; that doesn’t mean "all or nothing".

Damien 20-03-2019 14:10
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
I eat processed meat, albeit maybe not as much, even though it's linked to a higher risk of cancer. Doesn't mean I am about to run off and starting smoking 20 packs a day whilst sunbathing in the fields of chernobyl....

Hugh 20-03-2019 14:15
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987729)
What? The question of carbon emissions v absorption has not been answered, actually. I agree he replied but he did not answer the question I put. That's because he cannot, and neither can the scientists.
Because most of the CO2 is (mostly) absorbed by the oceans...

You may find this NASA paper informative.

papa smurf 20-03-2019 16:03
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987742)
Ah, the old "If you don’t give up everything, there’s no point in doing anything" argument...

Strange, no one uses this argument for trying to prevent drunk driving, murders, rape, and other crime - "well, I assume since the police can’t catch all the criminals, it’s pointless trying to catch any, so may as well not bother".

It’s incremental - if we recognise there’s a problem, we take steps to solve the problem, using varying initiatives and solutions; that doesn’t mean "all or nothing".
Ah the old I've booked my fights for my holidays so sod it approach .

Hugh 20-03-2019 17:07
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35987780)
Ah the old I've booked my fights for my holidays so sod it approach .
No...

The old 'it's better to try something (get a more fuel efficient/less polluting car, use reusable shopping bags, recycle as much as possible, don't use re-usable cups/bottles of water, etc. etc.) approach, because that way more people are likely to join in rather than just putting a hairshirt on and being holier than thou...;)

I've said before, you do do a lot of projection*... ;)

*projection - a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.

papa smurf 20-03-2019 17:11
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987800)
No...

The old 'it's better to try something (get a more fuel efficient/less polluting car, use reusable shopping bags, recycle as much as possible, don't use re-usable cups/bottles of water, etc. etc.) approach, because that way more people are likely to join in rather than just putting a hairshirt on and being holier than thou...;)

I've said before, you do do a lot of projection*... ;)

*projection - a defence mechanism in which the human ego defends itself against unconscious impulses or qualities (both positive and negative) by denying their existence in themselves while attributing them to others.
how many shopping bags equates to 3,000 gallons of aviation fuel?

I have a less polluting car it.s only 3.5 ltrs i could have gone for the 6.6 ltr engine .

Hugh 20-03-2019 17:15
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35987802)
how many shopping bags equates to 3,000 gallons of aviation fuel?

I have a less polluting car it.s only 3.5 ltrs i could have gone for the 6.6 ltr engine .
I would expect no less from you...

OLD BOY 21-03-2019 09:43
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35987745)
Because most of the CO2 is (mostly) absorbed by the oceans...

You may find this NASA paper informative.
Now, that is a really good, informative article which does answer my question. Thanks very much for that, Hugh.

1andrew1 21-03-2019 18:54
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35987925)
Now, that is a really good, informative article which does answer my question. Thanks very much for that, Hugh.
Hopefully you've deepened your knowledge and you now agree with 97% of scientists. ;)

papa smurf 22-03-2019 11:08
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35988018)
Hopefully you've deepened your knowledge and you now agree with 97% of scientists. ;)
Scientists is a bit of a push.

jonbxx 22-03-2019 11:34
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35988125)
Scientists is a bit of a push.
Not that much of a push though. That 97% figure comes from this paper - https://iopscience.iop.org/article/1...1/4/048002/pdf

Contributors to that figure come from surveys of literature published by earth and climate scientists as well as direct surveying. Figure 1 shows the correlation between expertise in climate science and the consensus on human-caused climate change.

Mr K 18-04-2019 07:47
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
11 years left to save the planet. If we don't do something radical by 2030 we'll be past the point of no return. Will we do anything or will we still be waffling on about Brexit and other piffling issues ?

denphone 18-04-2019 07:59
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35991559)
11 years left to save the planet. If we don't do something radical by 2030 we'll be past the point of no return. Will we do anything or will we still be waffling on about Brexit and other piffling issues ?
Quite a hyperbolized exaggeration even by your standards Mr K.

Mr K 18-04-2019 08:10
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35991560)
Quite a hyperbolized exaggeration even by your standards Mr K.
Not mine Den,. the United Nations.
http://time.com/5418134/ipcc-climate...t-2030-crisis/

OLD BOY 18-04-2019 08:55
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35991559)
11 years left to save the planet. If we don't do something radical by 2030 we'll be past the point of no return. Will we do anything or will we still be waffling on about Brexit and other piffling issues ?
Which of course ignores the uncomfortable fact that the planet was hotter than that in the past and has since cooled.

Let's look on the bright side. As we crash out of the EU, we won't have to go to Spain any more to get our sun tans. Good, or what?

Bowie said five years. Now they're saying 11 years. Must be doing something right...:D

Mr K 18-04-2019 09:15
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991568)
Which of course ignores the uncomfortable fact that the planet was hotter than that in the past and has since cooled.

Let's look on the bright side. As we crash out of the EU, we won't have to go to Spain any more to get our sun tans. Good, or what?

Bowie said five years. Now they're saying 11 years. Must be doing something right...:D
World of difference between natural and man made climate change. The rate of change is far faster than any natural occurrence there's been.

Guess some won't be convinced until it personally affects them. Symbolic of most of the failings in society. Sod anybody else or future generations all that matters is me and my sun tan today.....

( p.s. don't think Bowie was a climate change scientist)

OLD BOY 18-04-2019 09:27
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35991571)
World of difference between natural and man made climate change. The rate of change is far faster than any natural occurrence there's been.

Guess some won't be convinced until it personally affects them. Symbolic of most of the failings in society. Sod anybody else or future generations all that matters is me and my sun tan today.....

( p.s. don't think Bowie was a climate change scientist)
Does that include the rate of cooling that took place in the mini ice-age, Mr K? :rolleyes:

tweetiepooh 18-04-2019 09:50
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
I don't think it matters too much how we are affecting climate, if we can do something to help we should. Even if our impact is small and what we are seeing is part of a natural cycle we can reduce our impact.

Damien 18-04-2019 09:55
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991568)
Which of course ignores the uncomfortable fact that the planet was hotter than that in the past and has since cooled.

Let's look on the bright side. As we crash out of the EU, we won't have to go to Spain any more to get our sun tans. Good, or what?

Bowie said five years. Now they're saying 11 years. Must be doing something right...:D
Why not look at it this way:

If you're right and the majority of the scientists are wrong then the result of reducing emissions, switching to cleaner renewable energy and generally reducing our impact on the environment will be cleaner air and a more scalable way of meeting human needs for energy.

If they're right and you're wrong then we've damaged the environment and imperilled the living conditions for future generations.

Since we don't have the ability to conduct an experiment to see categorically what will happen in the future surely it's best to go with option one. If we're wrong then the world is no worse a place really, if we're right then future generations will thank us.


That I said I suspect the fact it's future generations that'll be impacted is the real reason for the lack of urgency. This isn't a society which has placed long-term thinking ahead of immediate gratification.

https://arlohemphill.com/wp-content/...imate-hoax.jpg

OLD BOY 18-04-2019 12:37
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35991578)
Why not look at it this way:

If you're right and the majority of the scientists are wrong then the result of reducing emissions, switching to cleaner renewable energy and generally reducing our impact on the environment will be cleaner air and a more scalable way of meeting human needs for energy.

If they're right and you're wrong then we've damaged the environment and imperilled the living conditions for future generations.

Since we don't have the ability to conduct an experiment to see categorically what will happen in the future surely it's best to go with option one. If we're wrong then the world is no worse a place really, if we're right then future generations will thank us.

The carbon traders will say anything to ensure this nice little earner continues for as long as possible.


That I said I suspect the fact it's future generations that'll be impacted is the real reason for the lack of urgency. This isn't a society which has placed long-term thinking ahead of immediate gratification.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]
What this ignores is the billions upon billions that are being spent on what may not be a problem in the first place.

Sustainable energy should be with us anyway in 50 years because by then we will have mastered the science of nuclear fusion. I don't buy the stories that are being spread about this being an emergency. Both global temperatures and carbon have been much higher in the past, and there was nothing exponential about that.

The carbon traders will say practically anything to maintain their nice little earner industry.

Rexz 18-04-2019 13:06
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
The thing I don't get is why are these protesters not protesting in other parts of the world that contribute with a higher percentage to 'global warming'? I was listening to someone on the radio that said that we can't blame countries like china that output vast amounts of pollution because we buy their products but if these countries are exploiting their own people to compete with the other 'cleaner' countries to produce cheaper products, how can you write that off and say it is the consumer that is at fault.

I totally agree that the UK should keep up its efforts in minimising pollution but the net contributors will just continue to pollute and in a world that is growing smaller and smaller, with an ever growing dependence on creating wealth, nothing will change.

Carth 18-04-2019 14:51
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Are there any trees left in the Amazon Basin . . .

OLD BOY 18-04-2019 19:56
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexz (Post 35991611)
The thing I don't get is why are these protesters not protesting in other parts of the world that contribute with a higher percentage to 'global warming'? I was listening to someone on the radio that said that we can't blame countries like china that output vast amounts of pollution because we buy their products but if these countries are exploiting their own people to compete with the other 'cleaner' countries to produce cheaper products, how can you write that off and say it is the consumer that is at fault.

I totally agree that the UK should keep up its efforts in minimising pollution but the net contributors will just continue to pollute and in a world that is growing smaller and smaller, with an ever growing dependence on creating wealth, nothing will change.
Got it in one. Our record on this is pretty good in comparison with just about anywhere else. Any excuse to take to the streets and cause trouble.

It's not just about wealth, though. It is a lack of sensible regulation in some of these countries.

ianch99 18-04-2019 20:27
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991643)
Got it in one. Our record on this is pretty good in comparison with just about anywhere else. Any excuse to take to the streets and cause trouble.

It's not just about wealth, though. It is a lack of sensible regulation in some of these countries.
As the world goes up in smoke, the UK says to itself, "We'll be fine. After all, we did our (token) bit for the planet" ... yup, that will work out just fine :)

OLD BOY 19-04-2019 21:31
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35991648)
As the world goes up in smoke, the UK says to itself, "We'll be fine. After all, we did our (token) bit for the planet" ... yup, that will work out just fine :)
Totzlly missed the point! The UK is not the issue!

Hugh 19-04-2019 21:44
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991680)
Totzlly missed the point! The UK is not the issue!
You may find this informative.

https://breakingenergy.com/2014/09/2...ing-countries/

Quote:
The inevitability of pollution in developing countries has been demonstrated by the Environmental Kuznet Curve. The EKC is a hypothesized relationship between indicators of environmental degradation and income per capita. According to the theory, environmental pollution and degradation increase in the early stages of economic growth, get to a peak point, and reverse in such a way that the environment improves at high income levels. This is based on the fact that developing countries desire industrialization and economic growth and tend to consume more cheap energy. There is also need for developing countries to build roads and rail tracks and develop massive infrastructure to promote economic growth. Such activities that are required at the take-off stage of economic development are substantially energy-intensive.

The important role of industrialization in the development process of developing countries cannot be overemphasized. There is need for structural transformation from small-scale agriculture to industrialization in order for developing countries to experience inclusive and pro-poor growth. However, industrialization requires massive use of energy resources which could lead to pollution and environmental degradation. China would not have achieved the impressive economic growth and development it has recorded in recent years if she had cared about pollution at the initial stage of development. Other developed economies like the OECD are also focusing on environmental sustainability after achieving considerable growth and improvement in the living standard of their citizens. The Chinese economic model is energy intensive, with strong focus on investment and industrialization, and is being adopted by a number of developing countries.

In conclusion, developing countries in their quest for economic development and poverty reduction are expected to put economic growth, energy for all and industrialization at the fore front of their goals before giving consideration to environmental issues. Therefore, compelling developing countries like those in Sub-Saharan Africa and South Asia to pursue environmental goals, particularly reduction in CO2 emissions, will require substantial economic, technological and financial support from developed countries and the international community to compensate for the economic losses associated with reducing pollution.
tl:dr - we polluted the crap out of our countries and the planet in the past, developing countries need to do the same to get to a level of industrialisation/GDP to take their countries out of poverty level, if we lead by example they will follow.

OLD BOY 19-04-2019 22:29
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35991681)
You may find this informative.

https://breakingenergy.com/2014/09/2...ing-countries/



tl:dr - we polluted the crap out of our countries and the planet in the past, developing countries need to do the same to get to a level of industrialisation/GDP to take their countries out of poverty level, if we lead by example they will follow.
Yeah, yeah!

And the practical sustainable solution is...

This is just an outpouring of frustration. We are where we are. And the solution is...

Looking forward to your response is... (looking forward to your practical solution, Hugh, our saviour!)

Yeah, right!.

Hugh 19-04-2019 22:50
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Irony - like steely, only softer...

Solution - lead by example, help those who are earlier in the economic development lifecycle than us by showing the benefits (as we benefit by buying things they produce which creating pollution, such as mobile phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs - we take the products, but berate them for producing them).

But I’m sure you knew all that...

OLD BOY 20-04-2019 08:33
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35991683)
Irony - like steely, only softer...

Solution - lead by example, help those who are earlier in the economic development lifecycle than us by showing the benefits (as we benefit by buying things they produce which creating pollution, such as mobile phones, tablets, laptops, PCs, TVs - we take the products, but berate them for producing them).

But I’m sure you knew all that...
Yes, but isn't that what we are already doing? We are cleaning up our act faster than other countries, which is why these protests are pointless.

Carth 20-04-2019 09:14
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
IMO we're doing it all wrong. We should be pumping more crap into the atmosphere to reduce the amount of harmful sunlight getting through :D

Global warming reared it's head after we decided that smog and industrial pollution was bad for us

What we need is another Krakatoa . . .

In the year following the 1883 Krakatoa eruption, average Northern Hemisphere summer temperatures fell by as much as 1.2 °C (2.2 °F).[12] Weather patterns continued to be chaotic for years, and temperatures did not return to normal until 1888. :p:

papa smurf 20-04-2019 09:15
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Middle class Eco yobs eh

Pierre 20-04-2019 09:24
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35991698)
Middle class Eco yobs eh

Adam Boulton did a number on one of them the other day, it was great to watch


https://youtu.be/_IPFRjLBqo8

jfman 20-04-2019 09:40
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
I’m very put off by the fact he says millions of people will starve.

Millions of people are already starving in Africa. Do they not count as a part of an ongoing global catastrophe?

I still don’t hear anyone using the key word overpopulation.

Pierre 20-04-2019 10:22
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35991700)
I’m very put off by the fact he says millions of people will starve.

Millions of people are already starving in Africa. Do they not count as a part of an ongoing global catastrophe?

I still don’t hear anyone using the key word overpopulation.
He’s a wise man that Thanos

pip08456 20-04-2019 11:11
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 

Hugh 20-04-2019 12:25
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35991708)

https://www.skepticalscience.com/skeptic_Ian_Plimer.htm
Quote:
There is no problem with global warming. It stopped in 1998. The last two years of global cooling have erased nearly 30 years of temperature increase."
Ian Pilmer - 8 July 2009

What Science Says
The last decade 2000-2009 was the hottest on record
I don’t suppose the fact that he is a senior executive and shareholder* in a number of Australian mining companies, and thinks that Carbon Reduction measure impact their profitability, has anything to do with his views...

*He is currently the non-executive deputy chairman of KEFI Minerals, independent non-executive director of Ivanhoe Australia Limited, chairman of TNT Mines Limited, non-executive director of Niuminco Group Limited, non-executive director of Silver City Minerals Limited, and director of Roy Hill Holdings and Queensland Coal Investments.

OLD BOY 22-04-2019 00:25
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35991709)
https://www.skepticalscience.com/skeptic_Ian_Plimer.htm

I don’t suppose the fact that he is a senior executive and shareholder* in a number of Australian mining companies, and thinks that Carbon Reduction measure impact their profitability, has anything to do with his views...

*He is currently the non-executive deputy chairman of KEFI Minerals, independent non-executive director of Ivanhoe Australia Limited, chairman of TNT Mines Limited, non-executive director of Niuminco Group Limited, non-executive director of Silver City Minerals Limited, and director of Roy Hill Holdings and Queensland Coal Investments.
Instead of looking at the background from which people come, would it not be a better idea to actually listen to what they are saying?

No, of course, because that would expose the futility of your arguments.

Address the post, and stop trying to divert attention from the truth.

---------- Post added at 00:25 ---------- Previous post was at 00:18 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35991681)
You may find this informative.

https://breakingenergy.com/2014/09/2...ing-countries/



tl:dr - we polluted the crap out of our countries and the planet in the past, developing countries need to do the same to get to a level of industrialisation/GDP to take their countries out of poverty level, if we lead by example they will follow.
So, your practical solution is what?

Come on, Hugh, this is not a straight forward matter. Before you pump billions into a proposal, you need to make the case.

Given that even the scientists admit that they cannot be 100% sure that global warming is man-made, you really do need to keep an open mind.

1andrew1 22-04-2019 01:00
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991786)
Instead of looking at the background from which people come, would it not be a better idea to actually listen to what they are saying?

No, of course, because that would expose the futility of your arguments.

Address the post, and stop trying to divert attention from the truth.

---------- Post added at 00:25 ---------- Previous post was at 00:18 ----------



So, your practical solution is what?

Come on, Hugh, this is not a straight forward matter. Before you pump billions into a proposal, you need to make the case.

Given that even the scientists admit that they cannot be 100% sure that global warming is man-made, you really do need to keep an open mind.
Hugh's post does address the issues. Click on the thumbnail he posted to see a list of the flaws in the clip.

Far better to spend your time on an authoritative programme.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...ange-the-facts
Quote:
After one of the hottest years on record, Sir David Attenborough looks at the science of climate change and potential solutions to this global threat. Interviews with some of the world’s leading climate scientists explore recent extreme weather conditions such as unprecedented storms and catastrophic wildfires. They also reveal what dangerous levels of climate change could mean for both human populations and the natural world in the future.

OLD BOY 22-04-2019 02:00
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35991788)
Hugh's post does address the issues. Click on the thumbnail he posted to see a list of the flaws in the clip.

Far better to spend your time on an authoritative programme.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episod...ange-the-facts
You suck it all in, Andrew. But where is the evidence that mankind is responsible for any climate changes that may be happening?

I am not prepared to be told by scientists what to think when they haven't actually proved their theory.

They've got it wrong before....

jfman 22-04-2019 06:26
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991786)
Instead of looking at the background from which people come, would it not be a better idea to actually listen to what they are saying?

No, of course, because that would expose the futility of your arguments.

Address the post, and stop trying to divert attention from the truth.

---------- Post added at 00:25 ---------- Previous post was at 00:18 ----------



So, your practical solution is what?

Come on, Hugh, this is not a straight forward matter. Before you pump billions into a proposal, you need to make the case.

Given that even the scientists admit that they cannot be 100% sure that global warming is man-made, you really do need to keep an open mind.
Background provides context, unless you don’t believe people rationally act in their own financial interests. I know you do believe people act in their financial interests because you believe many would leave the UK if we closed tax loopholes rather than make a greater contribution.

So how is denying climate change any different for your rational capitalist?

1andrew1 22-04-2019 06:47
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991789)
You suck it all in, Andrew. But where is the evidence that mankind is responsible for any climate changes that may be happening?

I am not prepared to be told by scientists what to think when they haven't actually proved their theory.

They've got it wrong before....
If you want to fall for the misinformation spread by the fossil fuel lobby like others fell for the misinformation spread by the tobacco lobby then there's little I can do to help.
If you are prepared to open your mind then watch the Attenborough programme.

papa smurf 22-04-2019 09:15
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
When i look to the sky's and see that all holiday and none essential air traffic has been banned and the middle class moaners have stopped burning millions of gallons of kerosene [fossil fuel] going on holiday jaunts around the globe then and only then will i consider doing my bit.

Mr K 22-04-2019 09:24
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991789)
You suck it all in, Andrew. But where is the evidence that mankind is responsible for any climate changes that may be happening?

I am not prepared to be told by scientists what to think when they haven't actually proved their theory.

They've got it wrong before....
Yes, them scientists tell me the World's round too. Bonkers or what ? :rolleyes:

Carth 22-04-2019 10:53
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35991804)
When i look to the sky's and see that all holiday and none essential air traffic has been banned and the middle class moaners have stopped burning millions of gallons of kerosene [fossil fuel] going on holiday jaunts around the globe then and only then will i consider doing my bit.
About sums it up for me too

Why should I turn my heating/water down and turn lights off when half the people in the street are jetting off across the world for a holiday . . .

. . . and what about those constantly running 4 TV's, 3 laptops, dishwashers, blah blah etc :D

Hugh 22-04-2019 11:08
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991789)
You suck it all in, Andrew. But where is the evidence that mankind is responsible for any climate changes that may be happening?

I am not prepared to be told by scientists what to think when they haven't actually proved their theory.

They've got it wrong before....
Funny how people trust experts when it comes to medicine, engineering, buildings, but not on this...

OLD BOY 22-04-2019 11:11
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35991815)
Funny how people trust experts when it comes to medicine, engineering, buildings, but not on this...
Not really, but don't get me started! :D

nomadking 22-04-2019 11:51
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35991815)
Funny how people trust experts when it comes to medicine, engineering, buildings, but not on this...
That's because those things have usually been well and truly proven. Climate Change is based upon projections based upon models that are constantly being altered to match the actual facts.


Eg Several years ago claims were made that the trees in New York state would halve in ten years due to man-made acid rain. 10 years later a report found that it didn't happen, and that most of the acid rain came from natural sources.



In the early 1980's there were claims that Europe was heading for another Ice Age. Whatever happened to that?


Now that they've latched onto "Climate Change", they can make claims with a wide range of predictions that almost cannot fail to happen.

1andrew1 22-04-2019 11:55
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35991819)
That's because those things have usually been well and truly proven. Climate Change is based upon projections based upon models that are constantly being altered to match the actual facts.

Eg Several years ago claims were made that the trees in New York state would halve in ten years due to man-made acid rain. 10 years later a report found that it didn't happen, and that most of the acid rain came from natural sources.

In the early 1980's there were claims that Europe was heading for another Ice Age. Whatever happened to that?

Now that they've latched onto "Climate Change", they can make claims with a wide range of predictions that almost cannot fail to happen.
Climate change is accepted as fact by all but a few. It's now a case of seeing how we can tackle it before it's too late for future generations.

nomadking 22-04-2019 12:20
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35991821)
Climate change is accepted as fact by all but a few. It's now a case of seeing how we can tackle it before it's too late for future generations.
The fact that we are not in an Ice Age is evidence that there is Climate Change. Climate Change is responsible for creating an environment where life can develop and flourish. The questions are how much is Man responsible for it, how much of their "evidence" is a load of tosh, and how much can the Earth actually deal with it and reverse the effects all by itself.
Quote:
In 2014, a group of IPCC experts published a paper about flooding. So far, they said, ‘no gauge-based evidence has been found for a climate-driven, globally widespread change in the magnitude/frequency of floods.’

1andrew1 22-04-2019 13:05
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35991804)
When i look to the sky's and see that all holiday and none essential air traffic has been banned and the middle class moaners have stopped burning millions of gallons of kerosene [fossil fuel] going on holiday jaunts around the globe then and only then will i consider doing my bit.
I'm sure you're doing lots of positive things already - repairing appliances as opposed to throwing them out, eating all the food that you buy and going by boat and not plane!

---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35991824)
The fact that we are not in an Ice Age is evidence that there is Climate Change. Climate Change is responsible for creating an environment where life can develop and flourish. The questions are how much is Man responsible for it, how much of their "evidence" is a load of tosh, and how much can the Earth actually deal with it and reverse the effects all by itself.
Do you have a link to the report you mentioned?

Carth 22-04-2019 13:21
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Experts . . off the top of my head:

Go to work on an egg . . . . . don't eat eggs they're bad for you

Drink a pint of milk a day . . . . . milk is bad for you

Buy diesel cars, they're much better for the enviro . . . oh hang on

. . . and don't get me started on Doctors either :rolleyes:

nomadking 22-04-2019 13:35
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35991825)
I'm sure you're doing lots of positive things already - repairing appliances as opposed to throwing them out, eating all the food that you buy and going by boat and not plane!

---------- Post added at 13:05 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------


Do you have a link to the report you mentioned?
Tricky to find the original report as the quote of "no gauge-based evidence" is mentioned in so many articles on climate change. Are they all fibbing?

1andrew1 22-04-2019 13:55
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35991828)
Tricky to find the original report as the quote of "no gauge-based evidence" is mentioned in so many articles on climate change. Are they all fibbing?
Until I see what you mean I can't say.

nomadking 22-04-2019 18:34
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35991833)
Until I see what you mean I can't say.
If you search for "no gauge-based evidence"(including the quotation marks), you will find several references to that original quote.
Link.
Quote:
However, no gauge-based evidence had been found for a climate-driven, widespread change in the magnitude/frequency of floods during the last decades. There are strong regional and sub-regional variations in the trends. Moreover, it has not been generally possible to attribute rain-generated peak streamflow trends to anthropogenic climate change.

Quote:
A team of 17 scientists analyzed precipitation and flood data on six continents during the late 20th and early 21st centuries. The scientists noted financial losses from floods have increased during recent years, primarily from more homes and businesses being built in flood-prone areas. The scientists also found changes in infrastructure and land use are exacerbating potential flooding events. Nevertheless, the scientists reported, “It has not been possible to attribute rain-generated peak streamflow trends to anthropogenic climate change over the past several decades.”
Importantly, real-world evidence does not support climate models predicting more flooding, the scientists noted.

OLD BOY 22-04-2019 19:32
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35991821)
Climate change is accepted as fact by all but a few. It's now a case of seeing how we can tackle it before it's too late for future generations.
No, it isn't actually. The problem is that anyone who stands up to these climate bullies gets shouted down, careers threatened, etc.

jfman 22-04-2019 20:25
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991870)
No, it isn't actually. The problem is that anyone who stands up to these climate bullies gets shouted down, careers threatened, etc.
Can you evidence this or is it pure conjecture? Careers threatened? Shouted down? Emotive terms considering they are ignoring science.

Damien 22-04-2019 22:13
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
In the end the vast majority of scientific opinion backs the idea that climate change is real and dangerous. I don't see the point in people who are not experts arguing about it for that long. If the scientific consensus starts to change then we can keep an open mind and revise our opinions but until then I am not going to dismiss expert opinion by listening to people who are not experts such as those who write articles for newspapers on the subject with no scientific background at all.

1andrew1 22-04-2019 22:40
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35991865)
If you search for "no gauge-based evidence"(including the quotation marks), you will find several references to that original quote.
Link.
Thanks. The no-gauge-based evidence all seems to go back to the one paper which you kindly linked to.
Where does the second quote come from?

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:23 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35991896)
In the end the vast majority of scientific opinion backs the idea that climate change is real and dangerous. I don't see the point in people who are not experts arguing about it for that long. If the scientific consensus starts to change then we can keep an open mind and revise our opinions but until then I am not going to dismiss expert opinion by listening to people who are not experts such as those who write articles for newspapers on the subject with no scientific background at all.
I think it's human nature to try and push back on the concept because accepting the scientific consensus makes us all responsible for the current situation. Denying it removes the guilt. As you say, the vast majority of scientific opinion backs the fact that climate change is happening and poses a danger to the planet. The economic upside can be found by the country focusing on the skills required for a carbon-neutral country.

---------- Post added at 22:40 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991870)
No, it isn't actually. The problem is that anyone who stands up to these climate bullies gets shouted down, careers threatened, etc.
It's the scientific consensus that has ended the debate not the above conspiracy theories.

OLD BOY 23-04-2019 13:31
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35991897)
It's the scientific consensus that has ended the debate not the above conspiracy theories.
Well, clearly, it hasn't ended the debate, Andrew.:rofl:

Mr K 23-04-2019 14:49
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35991977)
Well, clearly, it hasn't ended the debate, Andrew.:rofl:
The 'debate' is now between scientists and those with political/commercial interests. I know who I trust more.

pip08456 23-04-2019 14:55
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
It wouldn't be so bad if the Green energy activists came clean. Solar and wind are far from the answer and it could be argued solar is a problem waiting to happen (in terms of recycling).

If the wind doesn't blow or blows too hard - no energy, fire up the gas powered generating station.

If the sun don't shine all that much - reduced energy, fire up the gas powered generating station.

Makes you wonder why the gas supply companies are behind and funding alternate energy... Not

Add to that electricity consuption is set to rise to unprecedented levels thanks to electric vehicles.

Nuclear and hydro power supply are the only viable options but they don't want them!

OLD BOY 23-04-2019 14:55
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35992001)
The 'debate' is now between scientists and those with political/commercial interests. I know who I trust more.
You should be really pleased that the scientists are saying you can eat butter again after years of telling you it was bad for you. Now it appears that butter should never have been 'banned' and that the Flora we turned to years ago was doing you no good at all!

There are plenty more examples where that came from, so you shouldn't just blindly accept everything you are told by scientists. A little healthy scepticism is required.

Mr K 23-04-2019 15:08
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35992003)
You should be really pleased that the scientists are saying you can eat butter again after years of telling you it was bad for you. Now it appears that butter should never have been 'banned' and that the Flora we turned to years ago was doing you no good at all!

There are plenty more examples where that came from, so you shouldn't just blindly accept everything you are told by scientists. A little healthy scepticism is required.
And will you still be sceptical when the flood waters come through your door? ;)

Trouble is there is a point of no return with climate change ( the ' tipping point'). We are very close to that point. Even if sceptics are eventually convinced it may be too late to do anything. Action not words is required.

pip08456 23-04-2019 15:36
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35992005)
And will you still be sceptical when the flood waters come through your door? ;)

Trouble is there is a point of no return with climate change ( the ' tipping point'). We are very close to that point. Even if sceptics are eventually convinced it may be too late to do anything. Action not words is required.
Floods in certain areas may lead to death but reduce the population at the same time.

We need a bit more of that then problem solved!

Hugh 23-04-2019 15:48
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35992008)
Floods in certain areas may lead to death but reduce the population at the same time.

We need a bit more of that then problem solved!
Unless, of course, you are one of the population being reduced...

pip08456 23-04-2019 16:05
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35992012)
Unless, of course, you are one of the population being reduced...
I have no fear of death. If it happens, I've had a good life.

OLD BOY 23-04-2019 16:33
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35992005)
And will you still be sceptical when the flood waters come through your door? ;)

Trouble is there is a point of no return with climate change ( the ' tipping point'). We are very close to that point. Even if sceptics are eventually convinced it may be too late to do anything. Action not words is required.
So how come it's been hotter in the past? The planet didn't blow up then.

You are getting carried away, Mr K.

1andrew1 23-04-2019 16:43
Re: Climate Change - record World temp. rises in Feb.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35992005)
And will you still be sceptical when the flood waters come through your door? ;)

Trouble is there is a point of no return with climate change ( the ' tipping point'). We are very close to that point. Even if sceptics are eventually convinced it may be too late to do anything. Action not words is required.
If esteemed natural historians like Sir David Attenborough can't convince Old Boy to stop lapping up the misinformation of the fossil fuel lobby, I suspect there's little we can do to convince him.


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