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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Just give us the vote and none of the tedious double talk preamble that were in for by the container ship load my mind is already made up and as much as I would love clear unbiased information for those on the fence it just isn't going to happen. The pro's will lie through their teeth for their agenda and the same for the anti's it going to be a game of who can bs the best and look convincing. While I believe there will be a referendum I'm not sure I believe it will be straight up and clean this is going to get nasty.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
http://www.bloggers4ukip.org.uk/2015...heir-logo.html
Saw this in other papers. Now we have to thank the EU for giving us some of our own money back. I have zero faith in Cameron's ability to get any concessions worth the paper they are printed on, never mind enough to turn me in favour of staying. The EU is broken, lurching from crisis to crisis, and while they claim that freedom of movement is a key commitment, under the pressure of a flood of immigration, maybe they will falter on that, and if we want that concession, we must be ready to pounce. The EURO is also under pressure, I believe Greece should have been ejected. Country after country is slipping towards euro scepticism, while the Brussels bureaucrats never listen to those who disagree. If we do leave, then we should perhaps prepare to lead an "EU-lite" group of co-operating sovereign states - keep the few good ideas of the EU and discard the rest. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
I agree. The EU has become a 'marriage' of numerous unhappy, patently unequal partners and we're now seeing it all start to unravel. The only question is whether the inevitable 'divorce' can be handled amicably or whether, like most, it's going to get very acrimonious. I see some merit in trying to form an alternative looser arrangement of likeminded nations but have my doubts as to whether that will prove possible given what I feel is an inevitable downward spiral into turmoil and maybe worse.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Slight conflict of interest?:
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Just another lie in the avalanche of lies that will be peddled over the next few months. Let's hope they can be debunked in short order.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
The US will say/do nothing which isn't in it's own interests so as a default I'd be inclined to do the opposite of what they suggest.
Given what's going on in the EU, I think that arguments such as these are becoming increasingly irrelevant. I can't think of anyone I talk to who has't had enough of the lies and incompetence they perceive emanates from Brussels and that includes people who used to be pro EU. People like this guy are relying on the 'fear of the unknown' factor to overcome anti-EU sentiment. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
It doubt America wouldn't sign a trade agreement with us but we would be in a weakened position to negotiate for a favorable deal. People will use the fear of the unknown to promote the In argument but those doing the SNP-style 'everything will be great' argument about the merits of leaving are being equally disingenuous.
For example what's stopping us ending up in a situation where we're still bound by EU product regulations (because we have to trade with that bloc) but now have no say at all in that policy? Or a Norway situation where we pay for access to the club still? The Outers will happily dismiss all those as scaremongering too. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Of course. There are no easy choices or guarantees here but, with the EU steadily heading towards the edge of the precipice, getting out is making a lot more sense even if it boils down to a choice between the lesser of two evils. They'll definitely be big problems either way.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
The US, China, India, etc have to obey EU product regulations to sell into the EU, so no change there.
If freedom of movement is such a central policy, why did it take a long time before it was introduced? It started as a freedom of movement of WORKERS, not benefit claimants. Were they always eligible for housing and non-contributory benefits or again is it a more recent thing? How many UK originated policies have found there way to be EU directives and how many German originated polices have done so? That is how much say we have. If we would lose billions in trade and millions of jobs, where would those billions and millions go to instead? Wouldn't the rest of the EU want us to leave as they would benefit from our alleged future losses? |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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Despite being a major economy and contributor we get very little bang for our buck. We can argue about why that is but it's a fact. With French help the EU is largely run by Germans for the benefit of Germans rather like we ran our former empire. Germany is by far the biggest beneficiary of EU policy and the adoption of the Euro have only served to make German exports far more competitive than they would otherwise have been. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-808248.html Anyway it's nice to feel that the EU would prefer to have us within - presumably that confirms they believe benefit significantly from our net 'contribution' to the whole rather than the other way around... |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
You should also remember that many apparently EU only bits of legislation such as the "CE" mark have their exact counterparts across the globe as jurisdictions have often co-operated to get unified standards.
Our own BSI are very active with their USA counterparts such as UL* in establishing world standards. To think we would have little influence on standards outside the EU is to misunderstand the way these things work. Inside or out we still have to match world standards as do the Chinese and Americans. *Underwriters Laborotories. |
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British businesses that trade in the USA have to supply products that comply with their domestic trading standards legislation. British businesses that trade in China, likewise. British businesses that do not trade in the USA or China, do not have to comply with those territories' legislation. Yet, British businesses that have never once exported a widget to Germany, Italy or Romania must comply with reams and reams of rules, all in the name of 'free' trade within Europe. |
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
All the standards bodies work together and unify standards where possible and where there is benefit.
I sit on a British Standards committee. You have British Standards I.e. BS XXXX Then if the standard is ratified by the European standards agency such as CEN or CENELEC it gets the EN prefix. I.e. BS EN XXXX Then if it is adopted as an international standard it becomes an ISO XXXX Then you have other standards bodies such as ITU and Cigre. They all talk to each other. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
You are correct, but working in IT I think you may have a slightly skewed picture of how significant that is.
There are huge numbers of things that don't get close to ever having an ISO designation, a good example would be in service delivery rather than in physical product manufacture. In my own case, I'm bound by health and safety rules set in Brussels that now apply to anyone providing B&B, no matter how small scale, that previously, in British legislation, only affected larger operations. It is onerous for very small business operators and also for the local councils that are compelled to maintain a far larger register of so-called "food businesses" in their area, and to conduct periodic inspections of them. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
As with so many things it's only onerous for those who choose to comply. The sort of people who couldn't care less and operate under the radar still couldn't care less and carry on regardless, taking their chances. Meanwhile it's just another financial and organisational burden imposed upon decent people doing a very good job providing services to a high standard and who hitherto would be exempt from such legislation. No wonder the big boys are happier eh? The way things are going it won't be worth running a small business because you're subject to all the rules without the backup and economies of scale. Great! :rolleyes:
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The next sticking point is what if you want to sell outside of Europe? Well that's where the International Conference on Harmonisation comes in - a collaboration between the EMA (Europe), FDA (US), MHLW (Japan), HPFB (Canada) and Swissmedic (Switzerland) This group are working towards a consistent way of regulating Pharmaceuticals globally as there are many differences currently and this is a huge cost for drug manufacturers. See also aviation (EASA) |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34711887
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
As has been said. we can't be half in half out. we can't be excluded due to health grounds. we can't sit some things out because we're not feeling very well today.
A straight In Or Out Dave. just like you promised in return for voting you into power to destroy the UK and all that sail on her. |
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
Cameron has set out the goals of the 'renegotiation':
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34770875 They seem very realistic and achievable which was probably the point. He will be setting out targets he can deliver on otherwise it's pretty bad politics. He will want to say he was won ahead of the vote after all: Quote:
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---------- Post added at 11:34 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ---------- Actually probably the biggest one: New member states do not get automatic freedom of movement until their economy has aligned with the member nations. That would probably solve the biggest issue with the freedom of movement. |
Re: Eurozone will collapse...
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It'd be interesting to see how migration might be affected if a decision to change the rules was going to be made. Might there be a sudden surge beforehand? Even if new rules were imposed upon new member states, there's still the question of the countless millions in the rest of the EU who currently have the right to go where they choose. Maybe freedom of movement could be best managed by allowing nations to impose quotas although that would of course depend on the UK being able to gather rather far more robust migration figures than is currently the case. |
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It does seem the substance of the changes he wants will amount to the rules over freedom of movement though. |
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I am voting NO not matter what the lying git says he got from the fat cats in Brussels |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
I too would find it hard to trust what 'they' say about any concessions unless these were signed sealed and delivered before the vote. If not I can see them coming back sometime after a vote to stay in and moving the goalposts to suit them yet again.
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Re: Eurozone will collapse...
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Since when was anything EU easy or simple and what sort of negotiator would say anything else? I hope it is tough and that their intransigence, dogma and illogic is made even more plain for people to see - hopefully enough people to ensure we leave the ship before we sink with it and for others to follow. Maybe then we can have the common market many of us wanted and envisaged instead of a false union of uneasy and unequal 'partners' dominated by Germany. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Leave leads Remain by 53-47, excluding undecided, in latest Survation poll.
http://order-order.com/2015/11/13/le...ead-of-remain/ (In full, it's 43% Leave, 38% Remain, 19% undecided) |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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The more I hear of their patronising guff, the more I want to leave. These people make FIFA look like a well run organisation. The longer this goes on, the more I wonder why anyone on the UK would seriously want to remain a part of the madness. Can doing our own thing really be worse than being run by a bunch of blinkered Eurocrats who make inept local authority empire builders look good? |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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This what happens when you play a winning hand ( £11 billion net) badly. He didn't ask for enough and got even less. Everybody knows in a hard bargaining situation that you demand the moon to get a piece of the cheese. The clamour to leave can only get louder. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
It's inevitable with so many conflicting interests and political intransigence at work within the EU. I can't see the UK gaining any significant concessions anytime soon or any likelihood of common sense breaking out in Europe so my vote will be to leave. The lesser of two evils, sadly.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Looks like Dave's resignation and handover to the Catatonic George is just around the corner.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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the world wouldn't stop laughing. but I think if George gets it people will asking whether he's ok when he starts staring and tilting his head from side to side. |
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
It doesn't matter what Cameron wants or does. He's not going to get anything significant by way of concessions from the Eurocrats and vested interests so we'll all be left with a very simple choice - leave the ship before it sinks or stay aboard and go down with it. For me it's not even a close call anymore.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
It's all a lie. Cameron has no intention of letting us leave the EU, He will water down and water down his demands until we end up giving them more than we do now. He will then call it a success and push for us to stay.
I am still a no voter and intend to stay that way. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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Cameron would clearly prefer us to stay in but I reckon he's flogging a dead horse now I really do. It'll be interesting to see whether he tries to sell insignificant changes as meaningful or whether he does the decent thing and admits he's failed to divert the EU superstate from its suicide course. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
He'll do a Chamberlain: Waving a symbolic piece of paper and declaring he got the best deal.
Lies of course but I hope the sheeple don't fall for it. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
The difference being we all know much more about what's going on in Europe in a way we didn't before WWII. Don't get me wrong, he may do just that but I don't see it working.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
of course he could fudge the whole issue and not hold a referendum at all.
What's the worst that could happen to him? People won't vote Labour........ |
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
I was anti EU long before it was fashionable but now the moment of truth is coming I wonder what will be on the table if we do leave. I don't believe the scenarios UKIP paints. It'd just be nice to get the facts and not the spin
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Those who fight to stay in will paint leaving as a great unknown, a leap in the dark.
But staying in the EU is also a great unknown, and I'd sooner take the one where we are responsible for our own destiny, than the one where we inevitably surrender more and more control. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Given that Cameron will have very little to offer for staying in expect the stay campaign to be a mis-mash of scare stories and mass unemployment lies.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Scaremongering is how the SNP dismissed every single warning from the Unionists in the referendum and it turns out the volatility of oil wasn't an invalid concern.
Would there be anything the 'In' campaign could say that wouldn't be liable to be dismissed as scaremongering? If the argument is to argue for the status-quo then by definition it will be about what will be lost and therefore a negative 'scaremongering' argument. It's going to be a brutal campaign I think but such as the In campaign will have alarmist warnings the Out campaign will dismiss real concerns as scaremongering and promise a brighter future they may not be able to deliver. For example there is no guarantee all these trade deals we would negotiate independently of the EU will materialise or be as favorable as the Outters are suggesting. The Out side isn't above lying either. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
It'll be a comfortable vote to stay in; the referendum wouldn't be happening otherwise.
The public will vote how they are told to vote by the Govt., and their media chums. Scare stories about withdrawal will be wheeled out on a daily basis for sevaral months in advance. Always works as the British public are easily manipulated. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
I can only speak for myself but I don't need scaremongering to influence me to vote out. There's enough clearly scary stuff going on in the EU/Eurozone at the moment to make me believe that staying in would be worse than anything which results from us getting out.
Let's not pretend leaving is the easy, risk free option either. Leaving will be momentous and will create all sorts of issues for the UK but it's better than staying in an organisation which has time and time again shown itself to be as unwilling to accept meaningful reform as it is unable to tackle the major economic and social problems it has largely brought upon itself. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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Do you imagine for one second that the UK public will agree to deeper integration, with joining the Euro and Schengen area just for starters, followed by the various other trappings? Do you imagine for one second that the core EU's idea of a two-speed Europe isn't whether we join the Euro and Schengen sooner or later? There is no way the public is going to even for a moment entertain joining the Euro and Schengen as both have been proven to be an utter mess. That leaves the status quo and Brexit. The status quo hasn't been kind to us at all, we conceded sovereignty and pay a fair chunk of change for very little net gain and a big trade deficit, which leaves Brexit. The EU has had more than enough opportunity to reform but has chosen not to. Perhaps Brexit will either kick their backsides into gear and make them deal with the issues or alternatively cause others to question the status quo more strongly. I very much doubt it will kick their backsides into gear, they'll more likely than not accelerate the integration programme as the solution to every problem appears to be deeper integration and more Europe. How'd that work out for Eurozone members Greece and Cyprus compared with the EFTA member Iceland? Given the farce that has been our 'renegotiation' I can't see a referendum in the early part of 2016. That leaves a nice big summer rush of a million plus refugees into the EU and the resultant chaos and disorder - I note Greece reporting issues not just at their frontiers but now in Athens, with hordes of economic migrants behaving like mafioso alongside vandalism of property and lawlessness. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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I always find it interesting when people disparage others who hold different views on topics with ad hominem attacks, and denigrate others' intellectual or decision-making capabilities - heaven forbid it could be they who might not have an open mind or be capable of learning new things that may change their views... |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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It's not exactly top of my agenda to really find out let alone care. So my vote will probably be based on whatever I care to listen to nearer the time. Or basically what will be spoon fed to me I suppose or who I believe the most. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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Although initially eurosceptic he's changed his mind and is now very much pro-Europe. To be fair on this occasion he's right. EU withdrawal would be a disaster for the British economy which as a business man he now realises. You can be sure all his media outlets will have a combined strategy with the Govt. to make the public's mind up for them. A lot of the people don't have an opinion or know very little about the issues and are therefore easily swayed, particularly by scare stories about their own prosperity. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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Everyone blames the media now anyway. It's the default explanation for everyone as to why their particular political ideology hasn't done well. Labour believe the Murdoch press is costing them, The Conservatives believe the BBC/Guardian is after them, UKIP believe the political correct 'media classes' are conspiring against them, the SNP believe the Westminster media establishment are ganging up against them. Politicians love it because it gives them a ready made rebuttal to any negative story in the press, it isn't that they're wrong it's that the media is biased. It's the exact same process as conspiracy theories. It's a lazy dismissal of inconvenient facts (i.e actual votes) that challenge their world view. You're not wrong, you didn't lose, other malevolent forces were conspiring against you. It will the same for the EU referendum. If we leave it will the fault of the Murdoch press and the Government stooges at the BBC or if we stay it will the fault of the liberal Guardian the Europhile BBC. I can tell who isn't wrong though and that will the supporters of both sides either of which would have won had the otherside not been so bloody stupid! |
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Is this the Sun faithfully following Murdoch on a pro-EU stance or as Damien suggests its readerships opinions? |
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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Source linky |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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It may certainly harm big business, however this may also be more than offset by increasing the competitiveness of small businesses - purely domestic businesses will no longer have to adhere to the same standards as those larger businesses exporting to the EU, with extensive legal departments to ensure they adhere to the mass of red tape. I can find you businessmen who work in more competitive industries and believe that the impact of Brexit would be neutral at worst to their own operations. EDIT: You can use the CBI as an example if you like, but do bear in mind that of their alleged 190,000 members some 55,000 are farmers who are members of the NFU, which is affiliated to the CBI. If I say Common Agricultural Policy does that ring any alarm bells as far as their bias may go? The NFU are just one of the affiliated trade bodies all of whose members the CBI claims for its own. The CBI is estimated to represent no more than 2,300 actual businesses in the UK. Less than 1 in 200. In addition their own position was for EMU / the Euro and they ensured they selected the cohorts they surveyed at that time to support their own position. That turned out well. There are plenty of indications they are doing the same again regarding Brexit. We desperately either need to dive head-long into integration or to leave. The status quo won't do. There is no desire for change of the status quo, the desire is for ever-closer union and that's not changing. There's considerable evidence that ever-closer union isn't going to be viable and it's growing on a weekly basis - see the migration farce as Germany tried to fix its demographic problems in one fell swoop, ended up overwhelmed, and is now trying to strong-arm the rest of the EU to compensate for its mistake. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Wish it was Thatcher conducting the negotiations - can you imagine Merkel and Maggie in a cat fight... :D
Given that things within the EU aren't likely to improve any time soon and seem to be steadily getting worse, I'm wondering what the 'In' brigade have to gain by delaying the vote.? :confused: (mind you, you'd have to be deluded to support the EU in its current form so that might explain it...) |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
John Major has said warned of the dangers of leaving the EU.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...tter-what.html He doesn't think much of Camerons 'negotiations' either; Dave will get sweet nothing and pretend he has as we all know. Just about every mainstream politician (apart from the Tory swivel eyed loon wing) and businessman/woman will be campaigning to stay in. The outcome is a foregone conclusion and a massive waste of time. The grass may seem greener elsewhere but it rarely is. The Sun etc, maybe currying favour with their 'readership' at the moment but when it comes to it, they'll do what Rupert says. The public are scared of change and uncertainty, usually the status quo prevails (e.g. Scottish Referendum). Can't stop thinking of JM's Spitting Image every time he pops up in the media.. [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] |
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Can't really see how he could have done anything else. |
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Definitely the Sun following Murdoch on an anti-EU stance. ---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 ---------- Quote:
The issue of immigration and refugees, if used skillfully by the anti-EU side, could be the deciding factor. Whilst economies are still struggling and whilst national, civic and family budgets are under pressure the anti-EU camp can play the immigration card at will. This is an easy scapegoat especially with so many migrants on the move. Statistics pointing to the economic benefits of immigration may not be enough against gut feelings that immigrants and refugees bring unacceptable social change or may even affect security. ISIS could not have come at a worse time for the EU and ISIS know that. On the other hand, the anti-EU side make much of the opportunities for trade with non-EU countries, with us, independent of the EU, being able to form our own trade alliances. The current news on global trade and the slowing down of eastern and south American economies makes this a less attractive proposition.* Trade with our slowly recovering EU neighbours seems attractive all of a sudden as does the EU clout in securing trade deals, not least those with the recovering USA. These facts, if well communicated by the pro-EU side, could well favour us voting to stay in. Interesting times. * Incidentally the UKIP insistence that we should cut aid to the very same trading partners we may depend on if we leave the EU, is just one of those sick jokes that can only happen when dogma and xenophobia clashes with reality. |
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The uncertainty was whether Cameron would force his ministers to campaign for Remain, on the basis that Remain is tied to his renegotiation process. The principle of collective responsibility within the Government is not often set aside. |
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Go and get some counselling. |
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Boris is hedging his bets: Quote:
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Interesting different take from the Telegraph and Guardian today :-
Guardian - hopes fade of a deal Telegraph - Cameron closing in on a deal http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-february-deal http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...t-workers.html A fudged deal will have been done months ago. Dave and the EU are just waiting for the right time to announce a monumental non-break through. Carefully timed, for dramatic effect for the British public and ensure the right outcome. The vote won't even be close - i'm predicting 58% to 42% to stay in; the public are very fickle when it comes to change. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
I thought they had pre-arranged the 'deal'. Seems rather risky of Cameron to set himself up to fail if his goal is to stay in the EU, although he did screw up the Scottish referendum!
That said if he got a deal that limited free movement to some extent, a benefit freeze and some other minor concession I think many would shrug and vote to stay in. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Some interesting data from youGov after digging deeper into polling results:
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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Trade is recovering within the EU, albeit slowly, and rather more quickly in the US. I much rather we attracted that trade with a combination of EU clout and our own British flair. I am also concerned that those companies and areas of manufacture that require coordination across borders within the EU will migrate into the membership zone if we leave. I am thinking of aerospace manufactures and the car industry, for example, where components and sections are manufactured here and exported for assembly, or vice-versa. This is enabled by reduced paperwork and non-existent duties. Most north European countries are capable of manufacturing and assembling. Our home skills and expertise only have an edge because we are in the EU trading area. I agree that the ultimate solution is total unification, as in the USA. However, this shouldn't happen until populations and states are ready for it and want it. This may never happen. I am one of those who thought the original EEC was just a capitalist club with no interest in the welfare of people or the environment. The EU is a vast improvement, in that respect, because it aims to get capitalism to deploy its acceptable face. However, as a half-way house I agree it is somewhat uncomfortable and impractical at times. |
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Yep I'm not convinced the EU is a benevolent organisation devoted to caring for the masses and saving them from capitalism. They operate far more like FIFA than a charity. ;)
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
There seems to be more and more parallels with this vote and the Scottish one. The SNP relied on lies (oil revenues) and emotion to try and woo the voters and in the end, they failed because they could not convince the more conservative voters that their independent future was based on facts and logic rather than emotion and prejudice.
This seems to be going the same way: there is a lot of emotive stories playing the latent race/foreigner card which will convince some but until the Brexit players present convincing fact-based evidence of the benefits of leaving, I think the electorate will vote, like in Scotland, for the status quo with the hope that sensible reform will happen over time. The EU, in the wise of Donald Rumsfeldt, is a "known known" .. One thing is sure if the vote goes against them, the Brexits, like the SNP, will be complaining that they need a second referendum within the year :) |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
While there are doubtless parallels, the arguments are by no means identical. Don't underestimate the extent to which a single economic and monetary policy swung the argument in Scotland (characterised by the argument over th the pound). There is no such parallel in the UK's relationship with the EU, and in any case the EU's monetary woes have not exactly been great positive arguments for Remain.
Look at it this way: the two biggest crises to engulf the EU in recent years have both been precipitated by treaty provisions the UK refused to sign - namely Schengen and the Euro. Yet these are supposed to be fundamental to the whole project. It can be argued that the UK is already on a different trajectory than the rest of the EU, and wisely so, given the strife the EU currently faces. The Nationalists in Scotland would have jumped at the chance to argue that Scotland should have left the UK due to being on an inevitable diverging path. They did actually try to make that argument. It fell flat because it's not true, and because the argument to keep the pound was entirely contradictory. There are no such complications with regards to the EU. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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EU finances are amongst the cleanest there are. I'm not talking about the member nations, some of whom are corrupt, but the actual Brussels managed budget. Since 2007, when the EU budget started submitting its budget to independent auditors, the budget has been signed off. Once or twice there was a 4% discrepancy, much lower than most national budgets. Within 12 months any discrepancy due to errors and fraud has mostly been clawed back or resolved. http://ec.europa.eu/budget/explained/myths/myths_en.cfm Before you say that this all lies then you have to realise that all official EU websites are bound in law to be accurate. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
[QUOTE=roughbeast;35816633]Citation required.[COLOR="Silver"]
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The EU is derided as being corporatist, the weight of its regulations harming smaller businesses in their attempts to compete with larger corporations able to afford compliance departments. The Tobacco Products Directive, for example. This group you are such a fan of for their getting capitalism to deploy its acceptable face are enacting a policy which, in the UK, is likely to cost lives. We have a high proportion of users on e-cigarettes due to our liberal policies and are being dragged down by the lowest common denominator approach. I may not like a fair amount of what the UK government, in any colour, may do, but at least I get to send vote to send a representative there rather than, at very best, having my country's representatives outvoted ~25% of the time by groups that none of our country can influence democratically and, at worst, policy direction being entirely due to a group appointed, none directly democratically voted for. You'd be fine if the House of Lords were the only group able to introduce legislation and decide policy direction for the UK, with the Commons able to amend and reject policies only I guess? The EU has brought some legislations that may, in your mind, aim to get capitalism to deploy its acceptable face but it's doing nothing in that regard that the UK governments couldn't do if they so chose. Your post implies that you are fine being dictated to as long as you agree with the diktats that are being delivered. I prefer representative democracy and sovereignty, even if I don't like the results. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
[QUOTE=Pierre;35816645]
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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http://www.libdemvoice.org/opinion-a...ans-37130.html Who to believe |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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Approx 4% of the budget is dodgy, but a lot f that is actually the fault of the member state and not the EU. https://fullfact.org/factchecks/has_...18_years-28593 |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Europhobes grasping at straws really. This is a non-contest, Dave's masterplan for a 'stay in' vote is on track.
Only a minority have strong views on Europe. Most are indifferent, and either won't vote, or will vote for no change because of the constant scare stories that will be leaked day by day. Dave's a master at this sort of thing, you've got to had it to him. Even Boris has been silenced. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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It makes no odds whether it's the Brussels machine that can't keep its books or whether it's the member states. The point is, they are playing fast and loose with money donated to them by the EU's net contributor states, of which we are one. I don't care whether the mismanagement occurs in Brussels, Prague or wherever. It's *our* money and we have a right to be concerned. Quizling LibDems have no business instructing us to shut up and take our medicine. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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What renegotiation? He's crawling about under the table for the crumbs that his EU masters deign to drop on the floor. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Boris has ruled out leading the leave campaign it seems:
https://www.politicshome.com/party-p...leave-campaign ---------- Post added at 11:07 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ---------- Quote:
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They can tinker around the edges but when it comes to the meaningful stuff, such as free movement, further integration etc., the Euro movers and shakers have proved themselves to be as intransigent as they as misguided and I reckon the chance of Cameron getting any significant concessions which would actually be carried through is virtually zero. To allow the UK the concessions most of us seem to want would be to admit their strategy is flawed and these people don't do that. They'd rather drive the EU off a cliff than admit they're wrong and I expect a whole load of weasel words and sophistry to emanate from the Eurocrats in an attempt to save their faces and keep the UK's sizeable Euro-subsidy heading their way. |
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The number of frontline Tories that are going to risk ruining their careers is becoming less by the day. Chris who ? Boris has certainly seen sense about his future PM prospects, no one wants to be on the losing side. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
The actual odds according to the bookies is around 33%.
The theory is that you do want to on the losing side for this referendum though, if the losing side is Out anyway. As Scotland shows it can be beneficial to be amongst the insurgents on a losing campaign (unless it's a wipe out) and it's likely that, if lost, the Outers will look to try again and that will start by attempting to elect someone who supports leaving the EU as the next Tory leader. Osborne is committed to the 'In' campaign and is the front-runner to be next Tory leader. Anyone else who wants it would do well looking to be the candidate of the MPs and Members who support Out. ---------- Post added at 17:09 ---------- Previous post was at 17:05 ---------- Either way this issue won't end after the referendum. If it's stay then the Out campaign will begin again and if it's Out then a In campaign is unlikely to start but then comes the question of Scotland, how we withdraw from the EU and what happens next. |
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
As has been suggested before Cameron is going to attempt to convince us that he has extracted major concessions and that we should stay in the EU in the same way that George Osborne tried to con us that he had got the EU to reduce our contribution when in fact he had simply used the UK rebate to cut the cost.
The sad truth is that the Conservatives want to stay in the EU and are now trying to manage both the "YES" campaign and the "NO" campaign to ensure that we stay in. Indeed we now have the scaremongers telling us that leaving the EU will be a leap in the dark. We simply cannot trust the Conservatives to act in the national interest. Another fact is that the meagre concessions that Cameron has gone for are only a fraction of what the people in the UK wanted. Though there are trading advantages to staying in the EU which Cameron focuses on, there are considerable disadvantages which ordinary people focus on. The disadvantages are:- a) having no control over immigration from the EU and the benefit costs to out of work EU immigrants, not to mention the pressure put on the NHS, housing and schools. Immigrants with needed skills are important to the economy but we need to be able to control how many immigrants come in and who they are. b) having no control over the financial aspects of the wasteful and ineffective gravy train lifestyle of politicians and civil servants working in the EU c) being subject to EU laws which adversely affect the UK especially being unable to get rid of EU immigrants who commit crimes and other other problems arising from the EU's Human Rights Act.. d) being expected at some point to take part in financial union and possibly adopting the Euro in the future though admittedly that may be a long way off. e) being expected to be a major contributor to the EU but being treated as the pariah of Europe and generally ignored because we seek to reform the EU's wasteful ways, though some of that can be put down to Cameron's arrogance and strategy f) having to support countries like France who cannot secure their end of the Channel tunnel without financial aid from the UK or be expected to bolster up the Euro when the EU is in financial crisis g) having to take in people from outside the EU because another member country of the EU has given them an EU passport. h) the continous failure of the EU to produce accounts for at least the last 10 years and its failure to seek cheaper options to achieve the same ends No doubt other forum members can think of reasons to leave the EU but in essence it is about the lessening ability of the UK to control what goes on within its borders and the dictatorial demands of the EU. It will be interesting to hear what other forum members think and to see what happens between now and the EU referendum. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Well the latest Brexit poll figures appears to be heading in the 'out' direction.
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No wonder Cameron wants the vote over and done with. With things in the EU steadily getting worse, they must know that delaying the referendum will almost certainly assist the out campaign. I dare say this is focussing the minds of the Eurocrats on doing some sort of deal but I certainly wouldn't bet on them coming up with anything which would change my mind. I see that as a great shame. The EU could have been wonderful, it could have taken the best the individual nations had to offer and built on that. It could have encouraged co-operation and achieved so much more but for the obsession with ever greater regulation, monetary union, open borders and the unwavering aim of a single European state. I reckon the referendum will happen well before the summer and that's because it will bring even more migration chaos amongst a whole load of other problems which aren't going away. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
Hi Osem.
Happy New Year! I think we are on the right side of the argument but it's whether our reasons for exit get a fair airing in the media. Cameron's taking a lot of steps to prevent a NO campaign being promoted. I think a lot of people writing to the media and social media needs to spread the message that out is best. Have a good day. Best wishes, ntluser |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
I think the polls are a bit unstable at the moment as few of the 'swing' voters will have made a decision. That will come when the date is set and the campaigns start properly.
I still think it will be a Stay vote as I expect Cameron will come back with something and whilst it won't be anywhere enough to convince those on the Out side to switch it may well persuade enough of the swing voters to stick with the safe option - even if the changes are just cosmetic. Additionally I don't think the Leave campaign is in great shape and there isn't much time left. There are currently three different Leave groups and two of them seem to hate each other. Crucially none of them have given a good idea of what 'Out' looks like. That'll be the killer I expect. You may be able to convince people of the flaws of the EU and the population is generally not found of the institution but if you can't paint a realistic vision of the UK outside the EU then the majority are likely to back the status-quo and the fear of the unknown will be exploited by the pro-EU side. |
re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
One other issue that persuades me we should leave: Clegg wants to stay in :D.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
It maybe very close, But I hope we get an OUT decision. The only thing it will make the SNP want another Referendum to leave the UK. As they only need another excuse for one.
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re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
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