Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Same here Sirius. I certainly don't fancy the knock on effects of building a 7.5 mile (12km) tunnel under Manchester will cause but will probably be pushing up daisies by the time the first train uses the line in 2033.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-21230543

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

And me :(

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

A major problem coming from this news, who will win the contracts to build the trains, stations etc.

Gurranteed it wont be British companies, the one thing that is bad is that the government say it will create 100.000 jobs - who for.

We know what the policies are for this coalition, we will give it to oversea's then we can get more exports/imports, same old story - give the contracts to the British workforce.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Well, unfortunately for you Arthur, Labour also wants to see this railway built, so you can't blame it on the Coalition. Lord Adonis, the Labour transport secretary in 2010, had already commissioned a lot of the exploratory work.

HS2 is *going* to get built. The last lingering doubt was a rumour that George Osborne had gone cool on the idea, but seeing as he has come out and given it his full backing today, the one and only possibility of this being shelved has now gone.

For me, one of the best things about today's announcement is that it will prevent short-sighted whingers from constantly moaning about all this effort just to cut Birmingham-London journey times by 10 minutes. This isn't about Birmingham and never was. HS2 will eventually be a national high-speed rail backbone connecting central Scotland with London and then on to the continent via HS1 and the Chunnel. Now the route has been published as far as the north of England, perhaps the debate can get off the silly soundbites and onto the detail of how best to do this with minimal environmental impact and maximum economic benefit.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Yes, but Chris, the coalition could have stopped it to save money, they could have put the money into building better motorways and given the freight industry a big life.

There is no guarantee that this will benefit the British economy, what will probably happen is that this will go before the High Court with injunctions coming out of the ear hole, and l suppose the good thing is that the Coalition won't be in power when it starts will they.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

We should just get on an build it.

It's become embarrassing in this country, we can't get sod all done.

Last year China built 3000km of high speed rail, to add to the 6300km they already had

http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2013/jan/china-rail.cfm

And we're arguing about a few hundred miles and it'll take over a decade before work starts.

You can see quite clearly what a 'can do' attitude can do for your economy.

Cut the red tape, give the environmentalists the finger, and get these projects going.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Well we got the Olympics 'done' quite nicely to be fair. ;)

As prestigious an engineering feat as it would be, I can't see how HS2 can really work to drive the economy except during its construction phase. It's going to be massively expensive to build and unless it's heavily subsidised it'll be underused. I've yet to see a convincing commercial argument about how cutting journey times by train by, IIRC, a hour between London and Manchester is going to generate a significant amount of new jobs and wealth.

Right now I think the money would be far better spent on building things we really need like housing and improving the infrastructure we already have, including roads and railways. We could also try generating some jobs and avoiding the huge costs of disruption and destruction due to severe weather by improving basic things like our flood defences.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

If you don't see how halving the time it takes to get from London to Manchesteer is going to benefit the economy, how are you expecting any benefits to accrue from the mere shaving of journey times you get from widening or straightening stretches of road or existing rail?

Radical improvement is only going to come from doing something radically different. Back in the early 19th century, the canal companies did all in their power to prevent the newfangled railways from being built. If they had, we might still all be employed as farmhands and market stall keepers, watching small quantities of Wedgwood china occasionally floating past our cottage windows. Thankfully they failed and as a result, Britain led the industrial revolution for another century.

History has shown time and time again that allowing something to be done faster and more efficiently results in economic benefit. From canals to rail to paved road, the internal combustion engine and the computer, all of it has resulted in growth. HS2 will be the same. Although sadly the British capacity for moaning about it will also be the same. However, I'm confident our grandchildren will find the idea of there not being a high speed rail network as odd as we would find the idea of there being no motorways.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I didn't say it'd give no benefit merely pointed out that unless it's heavily subsidised the benefits derived from it will be mitigated. I feel that more benefit would be derived from spreading improvements over a wider area. I studied history a very long time ago so may be wrong but IIRC when the railways and canals were being built the economy was expanding rapidly and there was the demand and the finances. They were not funded by central govt. but by private companies and wealthy industrialists. Moreover there were no viable alternatives then and now there are in the form of road and air travel. If a private company wants to finance, build and run HS2 and it's not going to wind up yet another long term burden on the taxpayer that's fine by me but given the history of our railways since Beeching, I feel it will become just that if it's to generate any significant growth. I'm not against rail but and agree we need better infrastructure but just think that we'd get more 'bang for the buck' in terms of growth from other measures (including rail) which could be implemented far quicker and over a far wider area than HS2 will ever be.

I suppose one means of estimating its risks and long term benefits v. costs to UK PLC would be to compare those same effects of Eurotunnel on our economy. It'd be interesting to know what they've been since it's been up and running.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I wonder if the same arguments were given against the early motorways being built (M1, M4, etc).

I do remember (as I lived dahn sahf in the mid-80s) all the nay-sayers stating that the M25 was pointless, and it wasn't needed, and it would bring no benefit.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

My favourite compliant is that 'we' - whomever that refers too - won't see the benefits for 20 years. Well, if we had made this decision 20 years ago they would be ready now. It's also the constant provincial whining that is delaying this for so much longer anyway. Besides this is a step in addressing an imbalance in the country anyway which so much being in and around London, high speed rail will help reduce that imbalance. Yet we still get the whining because the professional complainers want to moan about lack of investment, moan about London-centric policies, and moan when the infrastructure comes near to them.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Anyone know what the train fare's are going to be yet? :)

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Probably not, just as we don't know what the train fares on any other lines will be in 10 to 20 years...

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Ok. I bet they're going to be bloody expensive though. it'll probably be a luxury thing at a luxury price.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Probably have to pay more if you want a spare seat...

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I imagine the cost of the tickets will be largely paid by businesses for business trips. This isn't a commuter train - thus more people will be booking in advance too.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

To put the laptop on?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Indeed, they'll be going for the businessmen and women who currently have to do the same journey by air.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

The pricing will almost certainly be set in the same way as domestic airlines and inter-city rail operators do. Supply and demand - popular routes at peak times will be pricey, off-peak journeys will be cheaper. If they have to run a train, they will always rather have passengers on it than not. For those prepared to plan their journeys accordingly I see no reason why it should'nt be affordable.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

With the new travel times, areas further afield than the traditional dormitory areas for London will become attractive as a cheaper alternative. Some of my son's colleagues spend hours a day commuting and only live relatively near to London.

My son commutes to London from Manchester because his salary gives him a much higher standard of living up north and, with a shorter commute time, I can see others following in his wake.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Does he work a regular 9-5, 5 day week? Seems madness to me. It takes 2 hours at best and then all the connecting to get to/from the station to work/home.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Sadly, It'll still be a British rail journey, so likely to attract the highest fares in Europe if not the world.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

It would probably only suit some but luckily for him he is in a position to work whatever hours he wants to do the work needed so can usually get away with doing a very long day in London then working from home the rest of the week.

On line check ins, no luggage and being only 15 minutes from the airport make his journey shorter than that of some of his staff. He even beats the travel time of some when he uses the train and can normally utilise the travel time to carry on working.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

There will be other benefits other than being able to get to Birmingham/ Manchester a bit quicker .It will release more capacity on the existing network for increased freight haulage,hopefully putting the brakes on the increasing amount of freight carried on the roads .

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I wouldn't have thought that freight traffic be allowed on the HS2 line.
Don't they wear out the tracks more?

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

what they are saying is that when it is completed it will free up room on the existing network for more freight.Although by the time this is completed we will probably have flying cars or instant star trek transporters

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Well, I am still waiting for hoverboards (only two more years to fulfill that prediction)...

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

well i'm still not convinced that it will be worth doing .I can see some benefits and in a time of affluence it would worth doing but i think we have missed the boat and any advantages gained by having it have been missed many years ago .There are better and more needy things to spend the money on imo.

It will be a disaster
 

http://news.sky.com/story/1065059/hs...nlawful-ruling

This decision will be a disaster for the environment and it proves that the government will do anything against the voters wishes.

I work in South West London, and this decision will be a disaster for the community, everywhere l go in the area, l see these signs up to protest about this rail link.

It is not necessary, we already have rail links up to the North, we just need to improve on the services that we have, not destroy the areas.

What they will basically do, where l work in Ealing they will rip up three major estates, to have a railway going through it.

From Hanger Lane, coming from London, where we have ONE rail line going through it, at the moment they are building a major Hotel, this will be put on hold, it will then go through Perivale, Greenford on its way up to the North.

This is pure stupidity, we have rail links going up to Reading where the new rail link then heads North.

This will destroy everyone in this area.

It reminds me of the Airport scheme we had in London where they were going to rip up Sipson. Total madness by this government.:mad:

They are not thinking

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Whatever happened to Prof Laithwaite's linear induction motor?

http://www2.imperial.ac.uk/blog/vide...oject-in-1973/

Had high hopes for that when I was a kid...

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

This should've been built 20 years ago....

it's just typical that we can't our fingers out of our behinds and have to have consultation after consultation,not to forget the NIMBY's,National Trust,Campaign for Rural England and other assorted idiots who believe this country only has a past and no future....

Same with new Runways at Gatwick,Heathrow or the Thames Estuary Airport... instead of just getting on with it there is a commission that will decide after the next general election,political point-scoring instead of sorting out the countries future.

very annoying indeed.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Just think that when it is being built - not one company will come from Britain.

There will be major contractors after this plum contract, but the homeowners will be offered pittance of a compensation.

Some of the houses in the area where l work are worth millions and the residents have spent time on money making it homes to live in, and yet this government will tear it to pieces.

In other countries where we have super fast trains, the landscape is great, BUT we are talking about Britain here - and the government wont be a hoot about anyone as they know they will get money back from it, with all the plum contracts.

It also reminds me of the M25 near Chertsey, they expanded the lanes, and destroyed the whole landscape and what has it achieved - Nothing, we still have problems there.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

How do you know none of the companies will be from the UK, Arthur?

Regarding 'pittance', sorry to bring facts to the discussion, but here you go....

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/g...sation-package

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

alive and kicking abroad in japan;)

http://science.howstuffworks.com/tra...glev-train.htm


It has moved on from this testing phase

http://www.ecomagination.com/big-in-japan

If this government got any sense they would jump on board get one here scrap the HS2.

If they build it above on stilts the construction it would minimise environment damage. Better would be massive undertaking build it underground. The costs think would be too great for this undertaking.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Hugh, you dont know what the hell you are talking about, l work in the area that is going to be effected badly by this crap.

I speak with the residents each day, and this nonsense about comp is rubbish, they have been told that IF they don't agree to the sale of houses to make way for this, it will be taken by the government.

The actual railway line that is going to be carved up, l walk past each day, sometimes twice and the amount of properties going to be demolished by this will be immense.

There is going to be a multi million pound hotel built directly OVER the line that will use these high speed trains, and the effect on the area will be terrible, at the moment the area is heavy in traffic, god knows what will happen with the traffic problems then.

I am not being disrespectful to you Hugh, but l don't an UK company will win the contract for this major project.

We get all this 'promise' about how it will create thousands of jobs and bring business to the areas surrounding this rail link, but it will go to foreign workers, as whoever wins the contract will take on workers at the cheapest price possible, it will probably get finance from the tax payer and also the Lottery (Like the London OLYMPICS).

This country is not anything compared to other countries, it will use the cheaper labour possible and cost billions MORE than what is expected.

I don't know where you live, but as l said l work along the area that will be hardest hit by this rail link.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

I know who i would trust to post accurate factual information ;)

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Yeah, that statement well and truly takes the biscuit.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Yes, that is what is supposed to happen. Arthur, you are confusing two different things.

COMPULSORY PURCHASE is what happens when your house is in the way of a new piece of national infrastructure like a road or a railway.

COMPENSATION is what you get when your house is compulsorily purchased.

When someone complains that they are going to be subjected to COMPULSORY PURCHASE, it does not mean that this week's announcement about COMPENSATION is nonsense.

Nobody has promised that any house owner will get the right to refuse to sell their home. What has been promised, is the amount they will get. Also promised this week is an amount that will be paid to people who won't have to sell their home, but decide they want to because it is close to the railway.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

That's how compulsory purchase works. The government will then pay compensation for those who lose their houses. Up to £50,000 more than the current value of the house.

BTW, do you seriously think that if the government cancelled the projects and used the money to build more motorways that they would not have to knock down any houses?

OK.

The company that will own and run the hotel is probably paying a lot toward the construction of the line.

As for traffic, if they market the line correctly, the line will remove a lot of that traffic.
That's not what you said.

Lets wait and see what happens before we complain about it..
Which is exactly what other countries do. The difference being other countries sometimes forget little things like Health and Safety, which is often the reason other countries finish projects more quickly and more cheaply than ours.

You make it sound like they will be torturing people and leaving them destitute. They won't, and while having to leave a house can be upsetting, you can make another house your home.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

@Arthur

Part 1 of The Land Compensation Act 1973 says if as a result of a public works there are changes in any of the five physical factors (noise, vibration, artificial lighting, fumes or run off), and these changes de-value a property by £50 or more then anyone who has an interest in the property can claim compensation.

There are plenty of ambulance chasing companies who'll be all over HS2.

Cheers

Grim

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Indeed ,the extra jobs created by this multi million £ hotel not to mention the upgraded roads to service it will be terrible :rolleyes:

On your point about the "foreign companies" getting the work ,i doubt it .We have some of the best construction companies in the world who are well placed to build this ,Balfour Beatty would be a front runner but it won't be a single company.The contract will be split into parcels and tendered for ,the workers will be taken from whoever wants the work bad enough so if not enough English unemployed want to get up early and work 8hrs a day then the gap will be filled by foreign workers

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Re the Olympics - here is some news of some of those UK companies who allegedly didn't get the work.

http://www.constructionenquirer.com/...ion-companies/

And there is this....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/g...marketing.html

Facts are our friends....

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Where i work in Ealing, where this rail link will cut through, the large majority of workers l speak with every day are Polish, or from Afghanistan or Romania.

Each day when l go to work and see what damage it will do to this quiet area, which is large housing estates, this will all be torn to bits, and yet when these planners got about where they are going to run the line, they can always move it to the North which is where grassland and forest are.

Yet they want to plough it through housing areas, it doesn't make any sense. For the unemployed in the area, yes it will benefit BUT, these contractors are not stupid if they can get foreign workers at half the price then they will.

I know plenty of British builders, who actually employ foreign as they will get them to work longer on low pay, this is wrong.

The government should insist that the majority of the workers should come from the unemplyed and not ply there trade overseas - ie like Butlins.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Absolutely fantastic! :)

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

It will cut through, so it isn't yet. So are these foreign workers actually working on HS2?

The thing is that there are extremely strict rules on building on green belt lend. Much stricter than those governing building on land that has already been built on.

There also may be legitimate engineering reasons why they aren't going through the forest, such as the ground being unable to take the weight.

Maybe not to you, but you haven't seen all the reports on the surveys that will have inevitably been carried out. And with due respect, I doubt you have the engineering experience required to understand them fully.

Then surely you should be criticising the builders rather than the government which, in this case, is actually trying to support a failing industry that employs a lot of people? The government is not forcing them to employ foreign workers. That's their choice.

Agreed.

Re: New high speed rail link ...is it worth it ?
 

Arthur i have sussed it, now i know who you are :)

LINK