Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Leaders should recognise that because of the differing strengths of EU economies some will find it easier than others to maintain the Euro.

Stronger economies are being weakened trying to maintain the Euro and it is becoming impossible for them to support weaker economies without detriment to their own.

We should recognise the Euro is dead and each country should revert back to its pre-Euro currency.

We should close down the EU parliament and allow nations to use the money saved to generate growth within their own economies.

We need to have a fairer redistribution of wealth within society with the rich taking less and more being given to the poor but done in such a way that we have more money available to develop our national infrastructures, creating growth and jobs.

We also need to have a national pension scheme to which everybody belongs including MPs with equal contributions, rights and benefits instead of having as we do different pension schemes of various strengths for the ordinary public while MPs have a gold plated scheme despite beiong the ones responsible for our economic and financial failure.

When we have a fairer society where we really are all in it together maybe we will have a better chance of solving more of our national problems and we'll all be a lot happier.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

ditching the euro would be a serious backward step, 70% of my business is done in euros, most of the rest in usd. The GBP is too restricted to just this country only.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No we don't, we need a referendum on staying in or leaving and we need it NOW. Why are certain posters so scared of asking the public to decide

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

perhaps they belong to a small minority that wish to keep us all in the EU regardless of the opinions of the majority - that's just a thought ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I would suggest that 70% of your business is done with businesses in Europe who pay you in Euros.

I'm not suggesting that we don't trade with Europe but merely that each European country reverts to a currency that it can easily support.

If a European country goes bankrupt you lose out whatever currency they are using.As it is the Euro is bankrupting countries whose economies are not strong enough to support it.

All countries, businesses and individuals need to live within their means. If they had we would not be in the mess we are in.

Dropping the Euro and the EU Parliament infrastructure gives poorer economies greater room to manouevre instead of being tied to EU dictats and allows stronger economies to continue without having to continously bail out economies that are failing.

Each nation's future, after all, lies in its own hands not the EU's.

If we had been allowed a referendum, I believe many people would vote to leave particularly when the EU Parliament has a salaries, pensions and expenses scandal that is bleeding European countries dry.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well said :clap:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

A better solution is to keep the euro but not enforce it as a only currency in poor countries. eg. I use euros even tho I live in the UK. Killing the currency is going way over the top and seems some are on a agenda to get rid of it, exchange rates are a horrid thing as for one it allows people to make money out of exchange rate confusion, eg. something may cost 100usd in america and then 100gbp here, a sudden large % markup.

Everytime there is something going wrong with europe some news agencies are on it like a rash, along with various people on here and on other places, like they cant wait for it. Shame they not so keen about problems within the uk.

Not only do I sell services to europe but I also buy them, especially from germany and holland. Online services availability within europe would be severely hampered without the euro, but I guess people who live only within the UK shell fail to see this and just listen to anti EU propoganda too much.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I'm curious to know how you use Euros. Do you receive a pension or salary in the currency or did you perhaps opt for a Euro mortgage?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I am not sure what you mean.

You mean how do I spend them?

Its easy to exchange it into GBP if I need to spend it.

Anyone in the world can accept or spend euros.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

How do you use them then? Do you have a Euro bank account or get paid in Euros?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

As Damien said. For you to make a point of saying you use Euros even though you live in the UK, I'm assuming you mean something more than just using them whenever you happen to visit a country in the Eurozone, which I think goes without saying.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

paypal.

but all credit card vendors will also typically allow payments recieved in euros (as well as usd).

I think even banks will take payments in euros but they will auto convert to GBP, at least thats what my bank does.

There isnt anything complex about it. But the whole thing becomes complex if the euro were to dissapear.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

So you're selling to customers in the Eurozone?

If so, I can understand why you feel it's less complicated for you to deal with the single currency than to have to deal with multiple ones.

I take bookings deposits via Paypal for our B&B but I operate the account in GBP because that's where I spend all the income. I'm going to pay an exchange fee somewhere along the way so I just take the hit at the point where the guest uses their euro-denominated credit or debit card to pay an invoice issued for Sterling. It amounts to a few pence over and above the usual Paypal fee for such a transaction.

But considering that Paypal does all the conversion and calculation for you, regardless of the currency (i get plenty of non-Euro bookings from around the world), is there really a material advantage in operating your Paypal account in the Euro?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Hang on, there is something quite odd about this.

Presumably you have a British sterling bank account and you get paid in pounds. However when you purchase something online you deposit the money into PayPal and get the currency exchanged into Euros, you then purchase something with a sterling price tag and let it change back?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Now it's Spain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/f...isis-live.html

Latest economic data from Spain has pushed 10-year bond yields on Spanish debt to 6%. Remember folks, the unlucky number is 7.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Read this earlier which sheds some light on the on what bond yields are and why the UK's are currently much lower than those of Italy, Spain and even France.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15717770

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I dont get paid a fixed salary.

My income as I said is mostly in euros and most of the rest in us dollars.

Most of it goes to paypal and sits in a balance the same currency its recieved in, paypal can store multi currency balances.

I can transfer from there to my bank, and I convert it to GBP before hand if I do this so it arrives in my bank as GBP.

People can send euros to my bank account, if they do this my bank converts it to GBP.

All credit card merchants accept payments in euros and as such they also deal with any conversion as well.

This is nothing unusual in the modern world of commerce, I think some of you guys stuck in the stone ages only dealing with GBP and this has confused you.

When I spend the money in this country it is already GBP, as I spend either with my debit or credit cards.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Seriously Del Boy, get out from up yourself. You're an online merchant (what is it? Ebay? Amazon? Other?), not an international commodity trader.

Most British people don't routinely transact in Euros; the questions Damien and I asked of you were perfectly reasonable given the rather vague nature of your earlier postings on the matter.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well I must say that whilst making currency transactions simpler for businesses and travellers alike is a good thing I never considered that a sufficiently powerful argument to warrant joining the Eurozone. IMHO the inherent dangers and restrictions of the resulting 'one size fits all' economic policy could never work across such diverse economies.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

And that hits the nail right on the head. To view a currency as merely a convenient unit of exchange is to completely miss the point. That is almost the least of the roles modern fiat money plays in our capitalist system.

The Euro doesn't exist to allow Europeans to buy stuff more easily in countries other than their own. It exists because currency control is essential to the life of a nation state, which is precisely what the Euro's architects want the EU to become. That they have put the cart before the horse and implemented the currency without also implementing full central governmental management of it is the reason the Eurozone is now in the mess that it is in.

What astounds me even more is that even now, wilfully blind federalists like Tony Bliar continue to assert that removing the Euro, which is the root cause of the ongoing disaster in Europe, could somehow make things worse.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Depends who your clients are. If I am doing business with people in europe then I will use a currency that makes transactions easier.

Now you are just been nosey.

Looks like I have upset someone who hates the euro, given a valid example of the currency increasing trade and they dont like it so now I am been called del boy.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No, you're getting called Del Boy for being both pretentious and patronising with your comments about people getting 'confused' by the Euro.

As I said earlier, you posted that you do transactions with the Euro; most people in the UK don't do that, therefore the follow-up questions were polite enquiries for further details.

As it happens, I think it's the people who think the Euro's primary purpose is to ease commerce between member states who are a bit confused. I'm assuming, seeing as you don't consider yourself to be among the confused, that you are familiar with the deeper economic ramifications of monetary union, over and above the impact on eBay sellers.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The Euro in this case isn't really increasing trade. Those customers could pay in whatever their local currency is and the banks exchange it.

The only confusion is when you said you use Euros which suggested you use it to pay for goods to day to day life rather than accept payments in Euros.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I could sell in GBP but I choose to sell in euros as I have hardly any uk clients. A decision made to maximise sales. Also I have costs in euros as well as I buy services from eu countries, so it simplifies things. To be honest I am not going too much into it, but the point is the euro has made life easier and if it didnt exist I expect I would have much less work and have issues buying the services I buy, as national currencies would be an obstacle.

A big argument behind not joining europe and hating the euro seems to be based on that there is no global market, and we as a little nation can survive just as well with more restrictive trade, that I disagree with.

---------- Post added at 13:01 ---------- Previous post was at 13:00 ----------

More likely they would find someone else who gives them a price in a currency they use.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

An eminently sensible and informative answer to my original query. Thank you. :)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

For most people it's nothing to do with hating Europe, it's about retaining control of our laws etc. and avoiding more tiers of government and bureaucracy. IMHO the EU nations could function better both individually and as a trading block if they weren't hampered by such things as a single interest rate determined by the ECB.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The only solution is for the eurozone (and future members) to become the United States of Europe, with the UK Joining in the future

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

But we are far better off out of the Eurozone in my mind.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

At the moment I don't think it matters if we were in the euro-zone or not. The bottom line is every government has been living beyond its means and this was bound to happen. It has not helped with the Banks been willing to lend so much money that most people and governments have been unable to pay it back. Now we are being forced to go cap in hand to places like china to prop us up which of course they will want relaxation of certain questions into there human rights question's. Basically no matter which country or political background you come from ALL politicians have caused this problem and are just bothered about keeping there own votes intact.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No its not, The only solution is that the Government grows a pair and gives us a referendum on IN or OUT of the EU. I would vote at this time OUT

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes our problems are largely self induced but if we were in the Eurozone, businesses and other borrowers would probably be suffering much higher interest rates than they currently are. Whilst that'd be good for savers in the short term it wouldn't be good for the housing market, business in general and UK PLC.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Our problems seem to be manageable in contrast to Europe. Investors seem quite confident in buying our debt, safe-haven is the word I see in the papers frequently. Also we don't have as much exposure to the countries currently in economic peril (although we may well be badly exposed to banks that are badly exposed) although that is more a quirk of fate from our banks here rather than our government.

What our government can take credit for is their economic policy seems to have been well received by 'the markets' which has helped drive the aforementioned confidence, along with the fact that a government department I had never heard of (debt management) seems to have been doing a good job and ensured our debt is repayable over a longer period. So credit to them as well. Although you have to wonder about a situation where multiple governments are at the mercy of the markets, to the extent where leaders resign in order to 'calm' them. They all a bunch of paranoid hyper, coffee drinking, idiots if you ask me.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think its naive to think the euro affects trading by 60% or at least the EU does, but I also think its naive to think that leaving the EU and having the euro scrapped will have no negative effect.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I read this on a joke website and I think it some's up the Bail out nicely.

It is a slow day in a little Greek village. The streets are deserted. Times are tough. Everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

A rich German tourist drives into the village and stops at the local hotel. He puts a £100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.

The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the £100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

The butcher takes the £100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

The pig farmer takes the £100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the £100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the taverna.

The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.

The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the £100 note.

The hotel proprietor then places the £100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.

The traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the £100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

No one produced anything.

No one earned anything.

However, the whole village is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

And that, Ladies and Gentlemen, is how the bailout package works!!

You vill do as ve say!
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15997784

The Germans trying to impose financial discipline? That'll go down well I'm sure. I wonder what they'll do if the other states don't want their financial discipline...

Re: You vill do as ve say!
 

Cut of credit to them maybe?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If you want the cash you have to take the strings attached. Trying getting a loan off your bank if they are not convinced you'll be able to pay it back.

Re: You vill do as ve say!
 

This is the only way a single currency can work. It's how it works in the USA; some states are richer, some are poorer, and they have their own limited ability to set and collect local taxes, but there are rules and fiscal transfers to keep a unified US economy from collapsing.

The logic is inescapable - they either abandon the Euro, or watch it collapse, or else put in place the measures required to operate it properly.

Just be thankful Bliar never got his way or else we'd be getting sucked into this now too.

Re: You vill do as ve say!
 

Well said!

Re: You vill do as ve say!
 

The UK isn't "out of the woods" yet.

Re: You vill do as ve say!
 

It is the only way that the Eurozone will work and that is proven everywhere including within the UK. It looks like for political advantage Merkel is the block on progress and judging by her address to the Bundestag it looks like her way or the highway for the others. Germany with its track record of efficiency and growth would naturally rise to a controlling power within further integration and there may be historic memories for others to to find that potential situation unacceptable.

The actions by the central banks earlier this week may all be for nothing and the outcome for Europe does not look at all good.

Whether we like it or not our future is tied to the outcome both on a national level and within a global context. Mervyn King is not warning the banks to brace themselves for a financial storm because he wants to be a doom and gloom merchant. In barely concealed language he is warning of a potential financial Armageddon which is fairly unique in BofE history.

With central bankers the rhetoric is usually several degrees short of anything alarmist as spooking the markets is usually avoided. Using the usual upgrading of comments against reality I suspect he fears not just the Eurozone problems but a failure of the entire global fiat monetary system.

When the Federal Reserve gets involved in Europe's woes along with us, Japan and others they are not acting out of largesse or human kindness. If the holder of the global reserve currency is involved it is truly serious and the time of who did what or why with our politicians past and present may soon be replaced with OK where now as within a near bankrupt country we will all be in it together.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I feel it is currently the greatest challenge that western civilization faces

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

You can't fault German logic but I can see a whole lot of anger and resentment building up in Europe whatever happens. I hope it doesn't get nasty.

---------- Post added at 13:35 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

Excellent post and all too accurate I fear!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

that's not nearly as likely as some have recently suggested.

At the turn of the 20th century, it was accepted that a good old cavalry charge or a naval blockade was the next best thing to talking to your neighbours, if they wouldn't see things your way. Only after WW1, when it became clear that the industrial revolution had turned war into something else entirely, did nation states begin to think differently.

WW2 occurred thanks to a perfect storm of economic depression, crippling reparations and then an aggressively nationalist dictatorship that was prepared to return to the old notions of force majeure as an acceptable alternative to getting what you want at the negotiating table.

Even if Europe ends up in a serious depression, there are no lingering territorial disputes or throbbing injuries to national pride that would be likely to result in one European power chancing military action against another. Neither is there any obvious route by which a maniacal dictatorship might override any of the stable democracies that now exist across Europe.

Besides all that, Germany, to its credit, in all the negotiations on the Euro, has been hell-bent on avoiding any proposed solution that might lead to the recreation of the sort of hyper-inflation that ultimately led to the rise of Nazism.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I think you're probably right and let's hope that's the case. But if the wheels come off, the German electorate starts to suffer and perceive they've been sold a huge pup who will they vote for and what will they demand? :erm:

---------- Post added at 14:05 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

Anyway Merkle seems to be very firm in rejecting the idea of a 'Eurobond' safety net guaranteed by all EU members. Will the Germans get their way? Whatever happened to the idea of a group of member nations all of which have a say in what happens?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/b...ecession-fears[

To add to the woes, the latest German government bond sale failed with 30% of the 10 year bonds being unsold.

Re: You vill do as ve say!
 

I didn't mean get sucked into the economic mire, I meant get sucked into a de facto United States of Europe that is about to take one giant step towards reality.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It would not be wise for the UK to become a member of a United States Of Europe and tied to the Euro because it is the fact we have the pound and the flexibility that goes with it that we are not in the same mess as other EU countries.

The imposition of fiscal discipline will not work because each of the countries in the EU is at a different stage of economic development and does not have the same options. There are riots in Greece now. Imagine what will happen if there was greater austerity there.It could end up like Syria with near civil war.A nation can only tolerate so much austerity.

We need to go back to being the European Free Trade Area where each EU country has its own currency maintained at a level it can afford and where it has the flexibility to adapt to changing circumstances.

Strange too that in all this talk of fiscal discipline it seems to be something that applies to others as I do not see leaders cutting their own salaries only the salaries of others.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

As long as you have irresponsible Socialist spending, it doesn't matter one little bit whether it's a single currency or each to it's own.

Which leaders are you referring to?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If it's a single currency i.e. the Euro, countries will be trapped in the financial straight jacket which sees prudent countries bailing out their less prudent neighbours. If each country has its own currency its fate lies in its own hands not in the hands of outsiders, though as you say you could have a bad government spending unwisely.

As for leaders, I meant it in two senses. Firstly, that Germany and France seem to think it's other EU countries that need to apply self-discipline to their finances. Secondly, that the leaders of countries taking austerity measures minimise their loss at the expenses of others. UK ministers on salaries of 60k plus took a 5% cut while making lots of other people on lower salaries take an unnecessary 100% cut by making them redundant.They forget that some people actually have to live on the equivalent of the 5% cut which the Ministers took.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Now Jacques "up yours" Delors admits the Euro was flawed from the outset:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16016131

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Yes well people like him have a peculiar habit of only 'seeing the light' when they're out of office and/or it's already too late. In typically arrogant fashion they refused to listen to those who saw it would never work and this fine mess is where that got us!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Surprise surprise, there'll be no EU deal involving the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16104275

It seems our EU partners didn't appreciate the UK trying to avoid the City of London being effectively used as another cash cow and being put at a distinct competitive disadvantage with its competitors worldwide. I can see a blame game developing here and we can be sure that if/when the wheels come off, the UK will carry the can and if it all goes swimmingly well, it'll be nothing to do with us. Sarkozy has an election to face soon so no doubt that partially accounts for his tough stance and desire to shift any blame for what's happened in the Eurozone from he and his allies to the UK. I doubt he'd have conceded adverse rule changes with regard to the CAP which benefits France so much so it's a bit rich him objecting to the UK doing likewise with regard to the financial sector which contributes so much to our economy. Right now Cameron could do worse than stressing that point IMHO.

I'm no economist but it seems to me that the Germans have benefited greatly from a weaker Euro dragged down by the likes of Greece, Ireland and Italy so their economy is doing a lot better than might have been the case with a much higher exchange rate. Good for them.

Surely this sort of thing (putting national interests first) is one of the things that makes political union so troublesome. It's not so tough when things are good of course, but when the chips are down and countries are being 'forced' to make tough decisions with regard to their own electorates it's all very different. We're all going to find out just how difficult in due course when new rules are imposed and the Franco-German axes start to fall across Europe.

Despite Cameron's 'veto' sadly, I can see the EU 'rules' being fudged/reinterpreted to the effect that we will still be effectively subject to those rules despite them supposedly being only applicable to the Eurozone members who want to be part of any new arrangements - a new treaty in effect. Cameron believes what's being discussed now can have no bearing on the EU as a whole, Mr Barroso seems to think differently however. The real irony is that had the Eurocrats been a tad more diligent in enforcing the existing rules of the club, the likes of Greece would never have got in. I can see an awful lot of legal argument coming our way.

God only knows how sharing France's navy is going to work if the muck hits the fan somewhere in the word where we need ships.... :confused::rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 09:40 ---------- Previous post was at 08:19 ----------

I see today's the day Croatia signs up for membership of the EU in 2013 - has anyone checked their books I wonder?.... :erm:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

This is very true, Germany may find it more difficult going forward if the become more responsible for the poorer performing countries in the Euro.

JJ

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The first one would be unfair, it's not our fault if the EU crashes and burns. The second one would be fair, if it goes well then it won't have had anything to do with us.

Which probably won't work. A minority of existing xenophobic supporters might emboldened but the rest will blame him, his government, for their economic woes and the cuts that came as a result.

My understanding is that they can attempt to impose the bank tax without this treaty. Cameron refused to sign because he wasn't offered a safeguard from such a act in future.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

As the BBC says it'll be interesting to see what the legality of this "eurozone" group using EU funds now that Britain's used her veto

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

With the big players having now drawn their line in the sand, I fully expect EU and even ECB rules 'bent' where necessary to accommodate their agenda as opposed to ours. Given the complexities of these treaties I'm sure they will find sufficient legal opinion to get their way no matter what the UK's interpretation of EU laws is. To that extent I feel may as well save our Euro contribution, withdraw and try to operate in sense of a trade relationship. Cameron had little choice and may have given us what a proper referendum on EU membership probably would have anyway. There's no chance of compromise now and the reality that the UK's views on what the EU should be are so vfar out of step with what the Germans and French have always wanted. It'll be interesting to see how those two allies get on if/when they UK is out of the club and no longer a convenient whipping boy. I think their friendship will become strained when they find there's nowhere to hide and the recriminations will follow.

The lesser nations may well feel they have no choice but to go along with what's being proposed for the Eurozone but I have a feeling that when the new rules and cuts start to bite, their anger will drift away from the UK and be focussed on those in Germany who're calling all the shots and wielding the big stick and the axe as voting their own governments in/out will make no difference. The stakes are high for all of us and our politicians are playing a very dangerous game I feel.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well done Mr Cameron :clap:

Next lets have a Referendum and get to hell out of this Franco - German love in.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If this goes full steam ahead and the likes of Spain and Italy are forced to make massive cuts in their spending what sort of democracy will their people enjoy?Voting their national governments out won't make any difference at all because the decisions are being made elsewhere.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The alternative is to let them keep spending like there's no tomorrow, whilst expecting others to pick up the tab. How is that democratic for those expected to pick up that tab?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Britain as made a very bad mistake buy not signing this treaty, we a re now ousiders in Europe and now there is a new power in Europe, and it is not us, it is "Framany"

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

So we should have just given in to whatever they said?:rolleyes: As if we are ever going to be an insider. What part did GB or most others, have in drawing up the proposals.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I am happy with what has happened, I prefer for us to be able to control what happens in this country without having to request permission from France and Germany. France and Germany are only happy when they are dictating what we and others can and cannot do financially. Both countries can sit on this :2up:

Now give us a Referandum.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

"You Will Never Walk Alone" Well that is what Britain is doing in terms of Europe!

Another thing, didn't Winston Churchill (a Conservative) say somthing about a "United States of Europe"

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 ----------

We can't we dominate the EU, along with France and Germany, what our PM has done has further weakened our infuence across the world

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No what he has done is stop France and Germany dictating to us what we can and cannot do and that has to be a win win situation.


Now give us a REFERANDOM on leaving

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

But he also said, previously to that speech in 1946

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Be interesting to see what happens now...

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Quite and for me that's just evidence that the EU cannot work unless all its member states give up control of their own destinies and accept what amounts to German control of their economies.

Obviously I hope a satisfactory resolution to these problems can be found but somehow, when the finer detail is being hammered out I can see a realisation dawning that savage cuts are going to be imposed on people in certain countries who haven't voted on the matter and can't do anything about it. It'll be interesting to see how they react when the day comes.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Hungary look like they will sign the EU treaty so we'll be the only ones not to do so.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I should add that the Germans may be right, they may know best and the long term may prove that to be the case. However it's how the peoples of many different nations react to being told how much they're going to suffer from afar that really matter, NOT who's right or wrong. They may all sign up to a new agreement but let's face it, the suffering isn't going to be shared equally is it.

---------- Post added at 13:20 ---------- Previous post was at 13:17 ----------

That doesn't surprise me - I dare say all sorts of pressure is being brought to bear on the various member states behind the scenes. It's what they finally manage to agree on that matters and the more members in the club, the harder getting a effective concensus on how to proceed will be.

For those who condemn Cameron for standing up for the UK's interests ask yourselves whose interests the Germans and French are standing up for. That's normal isn't it and it's the reason the EU as most of us would like to see it will never exist.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

The best way to start dealing with Europes problems is a United States of Europe, which we need right now!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

win win if you dont mind losing trade.

Also this statement from cameron was more about protecting these precious banks than much else. The message to me seems very clear, the banks mean more than our relationship with europ and the trade with europe.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

You don't seem to realise that, like it or not, the financial sector accounts for 10% of UK GDP - 10% of our trade. What should Cameron have done about the threat to it? Just allowed that business to move elsewhere where it's cheaper and less regulated than in Europe? :confused:

If you asked the French to renegotiate the CAP to reduce the benefits they get from it they'd tell you to get stuffed. Cameron's done just that hasn't he? As the terms of the way forward become clear it'll be interesting to see where the cuts fall and whether the likes of the French accept their share of the burden.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

You seem to be the only person on this forum shouting for it. Tell you what why not start a thread or ask the mods to start a poll in this thread and ask the question.

Should there be a United States of Europe YES or NO,


Go on i dare you.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

doesnt it worry you that we so reliant on a so called financial sector?

what is the financial sector exactly, something that makes a small group of people very rich. Is this what the uk is about now?

Their CAP didnt bring half the world to its knees, whilst unregulated banking has.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Of course it does but it's where we are isn't it? Nothing we think, say or do can change that. The CAP is a massive drain on the EU budget - probably the single biggest although I may be wrong. When I see the French voting for it to be cut then I will be persuaded that their self interest has come second to the greater good.

You really need to disntiguish between the 'bankers' (fat cats) and the financial sector as a whole which employs well over a milion people most of whom earn fairly average wages. Sadly for us the money's been made and lost (on Gordon Brown's watch I should add). There's nothing we can do about that now, all we can do is try to protect what's left and try to ensure that it works in the national interest in future. Like it or not, having a properly regulated but profitable financial sector is key to the UK's future but I'd totally agree that a) reform is required and b) it'd be wise for us to develop other sectors of industry also to spread the risk.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Why don't you start a thread on

Should Britain be isloated from Europe's economy

Should Britain world status decline

Should Britains Economy decline

Should Britain become a developing nation

Should we be ruled by backwood looking tories

Should Britain have anohter war against France and Germany

Go on i dare you

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

No i will go with a poll on should we have a united states of euope

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

It is people like you that will send Britain back to the developing world

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

fine, but there is a clear anti-EU bias round here!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

What Britain has asked for was a means by which to protect a key sector of our economy in just the same way as you can be sure the Germans and French will do in coming weeks and months when reform is in the air. I really don't see the reform and the cuts being equally shared and it's when the detail becomes apparent that the real fallout will happen.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Well if more people agreed with you there wouldn't be would there. ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

There's a sickening strong pro EU bias on another forum I read. I'm not sure which I find more depressing. This forum is more civil however.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

which forum?

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

For me being for/against the EU has much more to do with how far it goes and whether it can work in practice than anything else. I think we've discovered that it hasn't worked and needs major reform if there's any chance that it will do so in future.

Just found this on the BBC News site.

Allies en France???? :confused:

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

My main concern would be that in isolation we would have little influence on Europe and could be left out if they solve their problems and surge ahead successfully...

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

True and on the other hand if it goes pear shaped we suffer even more possibly. This is a very difficult issue and if we had a funtioning crystal ball it'd help greatly. Anyway, how isolated we really are won't be known until the reform is complete and agreement reached. If it all falls apart, as could well be the case when the stark choices have to be made, we may not be quite so lonely.

Uncharted waters methinks.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Everybody hates us. that's what I like to see.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

That's 'cos you're used to it :D ;)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If I thought Europe resolving its problems and surging ahead successfully were in any way likely I'd agree with you.

I don't. ;)

---------- Post added at 15:01 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------

That anti-EU bias is probably quite reflective of popular opinion within the UK.

Many want trade, friendship, co-operation, nothing else. No common fisheries policy, no common agricultural policy and definitely no political or fiscal union.

I'm sorry Alan but if you want me to take the EU seriously you have to do slightly better than the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, the President of the European Commission let alone the President of the European Council.

So you have a former PM of Belgium, the country that just took over a year and a half to form a government, clearly great advertisement for political union, a former Maoist Communist, and a former CND treasurer who has never been elected to office by a public plebiscite ever holding three top jobs.

Yay.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

If acted all in the nation interest then, what we will get is somithing like WW2

The United States of Europe would work (unlike Belgium) because there would be no domineering group within the EU (in Belgium, what is happining is that the French and Dutch are both viving for control)

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

I doubt the Flemish would appreciate being called Dutch.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Because clearly there's no 'domineering group' within the EU right now.

Oh wait.

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

yes there is Germany, France and (formely) Britain, but they are not completly dominant

It is people like you ans Sirus that will be responsbile for the decline and fall of Europe!

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Tad late for people like us to be responsible for the decline of Europe to be honest.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2011/12/68.jpg

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Stop panicking and consider Switzerland

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Or Norway.

List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita

1 Luxembourg 108,952
2 Norway 84,144
3 Qatar 74,901
4 Switzerland 67,779

— European Union[4] 32,537

Re: Eurozone will collapse...
 

Europe will recover and its joint strength will have the UK the equivelent of an ant vs a lion.

We not a major power anymore, we produce almost nothing and I expect worser times ahead.