Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Mr Angry something you have to realise about ATOS is that not all it's personnel doing assessments are lets be polite and say not of good decent charector and have had problems in the past with various medical oversight groups. Being specific to me i something called ankylosing spondylitis which both my gp and consultant class as chronic.

My current pain medication is 120mg of codeine a day, 30mg morphine patches a day and i take 1500mg of anti inflammatory medication as well. That is not as much as some people are on and the codiene part is being looked at and i may be moved to a much higher painkilling tablet. Yet on a good day i might be able to use a keyboard for 30 minutes then requiring an hour before i could start again on a bad day i might be able to use it 15 minutes and that would be it for the day.

As things are looking now i could be classed as fit to work in an office despite the fact that unless it moves in across the road anymore then 50-60 metres causes me severe pain which can sometimes take hours\days to recover from. Atos assess on the very best circumstance that you as a patient can have not even the average and certainly not the worst you can have giving a very false impression of what you can actually do. While i helped with an organisation that dealt with disabled people i heard what i can only describe as horror stories about atos and their ways of doing things and examples of some of the stupidest decisions i have ever seen that included one man with terminal cancer being classed as fit for warehouse work.

Do i fear being fairly assessed and judged hell no i have no problem with that and in my ideal world i would find an employer that would be flexible enough to accomadate me and my limitations even though being realistic as i have sadly had to become no such employer exists. Do i fear an atos assessment yes i do because whatever their concern is it isn't for me or even for any company that might get landed with me.

Despite my medication i spend everyday in pain to varying degrees and will do for the rest of my life and i am ok with that there are people far worse off then me but then there is that massive majority that i want to be part of and never will be the working population that bit i am not ok with but am slowly learning to come to terms with it. I have always said there were that small group of career "won't work, cannot be bothered to work" and damn right we have to grab them by the scruff of their neck and do something with them.

But the way this government is going that group will slip through the cracks again and the ones that will be hit yet again are the genuine and legitimate is it really fair to keep doing that i don't think so and i think there are better ways.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I don't need to discredit you Chrysalis, you appear to be doing a spectacular job of that yourself.

You don't (unfortunately for you) appear to have any proof to substantiate your allegations.

You don't appear to be able to provide a Court List referencing same or a Google link to a relevant prosecution, case or appeal.

Can you guess why that might be?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

What would you define as acceptable basis/proof tho?
is my point.

If I posted a bbc article saying the same thing would he class that as proof, if yes then he is just been silly. Mainstream media ignore things like this.

I am not going to breach privacy agreements to satisfy him so wont post any case details here.

I have gave him basis.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in CF court :)

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I think you discrediting yourself, so we think the same of each other. You stay silent as people make claim after claim about claimants without proof as you say, then the first person to say something directly about the system defrauding claimants and you demand proof. More people will side with you of course because its the trend to back the system changes and to look at claimants as frauds.

People post similiar things on this forum every day, whats special about this one?

By the way reread the article, the specific reason I linked it is it quotes a case number.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

It appears that it is not only ATOS staff that claimants are unhappy with - BMA

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Confirmation of a conviction under the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act of 1981 in relation to your allegations would be helpful. As indeed would proof of any disciplinary measures having been taken by the BMA (which are regularly published in the public domain) against any of their members whom you, singularly, allege to have falsified medical reports in relation to DWP assessments.

Mind you, had either of the above actually happened I'm sure there'd have been an unmissable, unrelenting national outcry.

All you have presented are your fantastical allegations.

Tell us Chrysalis, how did you yourself satisfy your own mind as to the veracity of the allegations you posted? Surely you must have read or accessed "proof" somewhere in the public domain before deciding that these were indeed true and worthy of putting your name to?

---------- Post added at 17:11 ---------- Previous post was at 17:06 ----------

If you bothered to read my posts in this thread you would see that is exactly NOT my position on this matter.

What is "special" about this is that you are posting lies, innuendo and unqualified allegations as fact. It serves no purpose to protect the genuinely ill but instead weakens their case as evidenced by Hughs quote.

Yes, quite. A case number in relation to what - specifically? Oh yes, that's right. It's the appeals case reference number of the appeal by "Mrs E" which was dismissed and can be seen here.

Now, whilst "Mrs E" lost her appeal she has still maintained her anonymity.

I'd expect that the same anonymity would be afforded a claimant who brought a successful case against anyone who might have created or sought to create a fraudulent instrument against them.

Hens teeth would appear to be easier to find.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Very much so, they /can/ deviate but tend not to do so because they have to qualify it adn give reasins as to why they did so on the system. That was the experience of my last dealings with them any how.

I don't have any faith in them or the job centre anymore.

I am due a DLA assessment and an Incapacity Benefit to ESA assessment early next year so it will be interesting to see if things have changed.

I am hoping to have sorted out my IT job by then so it may not apply, but we shall see.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Mr Angry the result of the appeal is not important but rather what the commissioner confirmed in that case.
If this bothers you so much now you have a case number you can dig futher into it. I expect you wont do that tho.

Noone that I am aware off has been prosecuted which is not surprising at all.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I'd say it was to "Mrs E".

If not then what, pray tell, were you getting so hot and bothered about if you don't see appeals / the outcome of appeals as important?

So your allegations were just that, untrue and unfounded.

Thank you for clearing that up.

Given that nobody has ever been formally charged with the actions you alleged I'm not surprised either that nobody has ever been prosecuted.

Cheers.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

If thats what you want to believe fine.

If you were the DWP you wouldnt let someone be prosecuted for it as the repurcussions to the benefit system would be enormous and would open a claim floodgate. Instead they most likely get internally disiciplined. Also the vast majority of claimants wont have the energy or will power to go after individual's, their priority is their own claim. I dont even know if a doctor has been taken to court.

The fact is reports have been altered post medical, this information can be found by googling but I am not going to do it for you due to the way you have treated this, the uncertianty of it is, is who does it and why this has been done. Even reports that havent been altered, on lima as well there is instances of reports giving factually incorrect information which leads to a false score. This I have personally seen dozens of times.

Now I am curious as to why a claim that the medical system is working wrong negatively against claimants is a subject that you so interested in.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Its not what I believe, it's actually what you believe and what you posted. Let me remind you. You said "the result of the appeal is not important". So bang goes your pretence of caring for the ill and vulnerable.

Again, baseless and factually incorrect. The crown has immunity - Doctors and Atos Orign staff (both of whom you have attempted to malign without a shred of factual legal proof) are not - so why have none of their numbers been prosecuted or found guilty of the allegations you have levelled against them?

Again you are hypothesizing over something you have no factual understanding of.

So, it's now the ill peoples fault for not pursuing their claim to have been defrauded by members of a profession you previously alleged to be rife with fraud and practitioners of acts contrary to the Fraud Act.

I'll tell you what Chrysalis, why don't you - given the fact that you maintain that you have seen dozens of instances of this fraud which you allege - take a case for them? Armed with the quantity and quality of the information and evidence you allege, but have yet to prove, you have I'd be surprised if the defence lawyers would even bother turning up such is the incontravertable nature (allegedly) of same.

Yes, of course, I should have realized. Given the fact that you as a sole individual have, allegedly, seen dozens of instances of fraudulent behaviour on the part of doctors completing assessments it's no wonder that Google and the National Archive are literally coming down with examples exactly the same as the dozens you have, allegedly, seen.

Oh, wait.....

There you go again, expecting the world and his sister to alter their perception of reality simply because you "say so" and, per usual, provide no substantive proof or evidence of what, exactly, you have based your "experiences" on. You make yourself look ridiculous with your "bad boys did it and ran away" attempts at defending your fantastical and entirely unfounded allegations (which you are now trying frantically to backtrack from).

Because, unlike yourself, I have a factually based interest in the state affording care and protection to the ill and vulnerable.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Then why have you not posed the same question to other welfare posts that have the same lack of data? you put yourself in a corner here. You picked this post out and you wont say why.

I have seen dozens of inaccurate reports because I have attended appeal hearings. These are documents that I seen in front of me, not something on the internet.

What I am seeing here with you is you have taken offense to the fact someone has challenged the integrity of the system, you have made your point, some people will read your posts and take your view and thats it. But you are taking this further and I presume wont stop either until a moderator steps in or you try to get me to say something like because there is no prosecution it must mean its all false. The world doesnt work like that. So you can claim your victory here and others can make their own mind up. So I wont respond to further posts from you in this thread.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Now you're really clutching at straws. I invited you earlier to view my position throughout this thread and you didn't bother, did you?

I've told you why - I intervened because you lied about there being proof that medical professionals had fraudulently mis represented the health conditions of ill individuals.

You have tried to backtrack ever since and, much as I dislike the system as it is, I cannot sit idly by and watch you malign and slander medical professionals simply because it suits your agenda.

You've been called out, you've been exposed as a fantasist who makes ill informed unsubstantiated allegations about people and, when challenged, someone who cowers in a corner sticking your fingers in your ears and sings "I'm not listening, I'm not listening, I'm not playing anymore, mummy, mummy".

Take for example "I have seen dozens of inaccurate reports because I have attended appeal hearings". Mrs E was an appeal hearing, her appeal outcome is in the public domain suitably anonymised, where are those that you expect us to believe you have have attended?

I've put it to you that you should take a case on behalf of those you allege to have been fraudulently disadvantaged and what we now see is your fantasy world crumbling in the public eye.

That in itself speaks volumes.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

You really are angry by name and nature aren't you. :dozey: :rolleyes:

I think you are just enjoying this aren't you.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

He talks about facts without proof, that is a bold statement he made, I am not sitting here demanding proof that I am lieing, I accept his opinion.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

if i may interject.If there were any truth to these allegations i am pretty sure that the news of the world or daily mail would have gotten hold of it first and would in all likely hood be the subject of a thread on cf .That sort of allegation could lose people their jobs and have repercusions all the way to downing st

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

why would the NOTW and mail post a story about claimants been unfairly denied benefit? to those papers they ****. Newspapers all have agendas.

The bbc was offered case details, hard proof, and proof of a doctor been reprimanded by atos origin but wouldnt print the story due to it "not been in the public's interest" and that was the bbc never mind someone like the NOTW.

The proproganda has been very effective as people here simply refuse to believe whats going on.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Anyway sort of bringing it back to compulsory unpaid labour. after seeing the students protest and riots today. I think there's a possibility that the hundreds of thousands that this may affect. if they had a riot it would be a bloody big one?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Really?Where did you get that information?:erm:

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

are you serious ? any newspaper would jump at the chance to investigate a story like that and if the BBC turned it down then i would suggest it was because there was either no truth to it or no evidence.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

:argue: It's fun here ennit?

I can't say I particularly believe one story or another, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I still believe that our culture has changed in the last 15 or so years that allows people to play on certain health issues they might have to dodge the system. I think the teacher who's just been paid £150k compensation shows us just how wrong the thinking is.

Equally, I think there are people out there who probably aren't getting the benefits they are entitled to but not necessarily because they've been cheated out of it, just because they haven't been given the correct information.

Whether this system works, only time will tell but that doesn't mean it's not worth trying.

John

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I didnt but was working someone else with someone who had it.

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

The BBC and newspapers turn lots of things down they dont like the look off.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Could I just point out there's a huge difference between your initial assertion (that this was widespread) and your latest (a single instance).

You also appear to be stating that ATOS reprimanded a doctor for doing what you said they wanted (certify people as being fit for work when they weren't), or are you saying they reprimanded him/her for saying that people weren't fit for work? Any links?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

that would usually be because without hard evidence they will get into a lot of trouble,of course there are papers that don't care as much about hard evidence when making claims such as NOTW or the DM so if there was so much as a sniff of truth behind that allegation you made they would be all over it imo

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Not having any hard evidence didn't stop them with MMR....

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

A single instance was sent to the bbc.

There is many unknowns with atos, because they a private company freedom of information requests cannot reveal what they do internally.

What I know?

Atos get paid more if they find more fit for work.
Atos question their doctors if they rule a large amount of people unfit for work in any given space of time.
Some hand written reports have been altered after the medical has taken place, in every case to make the condition less serious.
Some reports hand written and lima based have factually incorrect information about what the claimant is capable off.
Atos sometimes uses nurses or even non medical admin staff to carry out medicals.

Keep poking me for holes if you like.

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:47 ----------

Papers dont print anything as long as there is evidence, they have political allegances. Papers often do print stuff without evidence of course. You put too much trust into them.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Seriously -Atos get paid more if they find more fit for work - is that in their contract?

Update - found this on the whatdotheyknow website (publishes FOI requests and answer) - Atos

And this from Hansard (6th September 2010)
btw, not poking - just trying to have a debate based on factual evidence.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Hugh I am fairly sure there is online evidence of the atos contract situation, so will try and find it for you.
In addition the new work related interviews which ESA claimants will have to undertake will be done by the private sector and that sector will be paid a lump sum for every claimant they get into work, the latter will be easy to find proof on as it was ministers themselves revealing that.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

That would be very useful. Especially if it were to prove that Chris Grayling misled Parliament. I very much look forward to seeing that.

I think you are possibly getting confused between Work Capability Assessments and work related interviews (assuming you don't mean Work Focused Interviews). WCAs are specific to those claiming ESA whereas the work related interviews apply to anyone seeking employment. It is not unusual for private sector companies (eg Grafton) to be paid a lump sum for getting someone a job. Indeed it's how recruitment agencies have worked for decades.

If, however, you can provide proof that ESA claimants - and ESA claimants alone - are being targetted specifically by these work related interviews and that any such initiative is anything beyond conventional recruitment agency practices then that is a very different matter. Again I'd genuinely very much welcome an opportunity to view any such proof if you are in a position to make it available.

Thanks.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Chrysalis has taken a lot of flak for what he has said and while i cannot claim to have seen it in dozens of cases i can confirm some of what he says during the time i did voluntary work for a group that represented disabled people on benefit. I can also say that of the fifteen appeals i went too with clients not once did the atos doctor that signed the person off benefit turn upto the appeal they submitted a written statement and a representative of atos was there at the appeal.

All fifteen appeals were found in favour of the claimant with some quite stinging comments made on the conduct of atos. Now here is the thing that got me as i always understood it these things were on record and could be viewed yet not once have i been able to find a single mention of any of those appeals even though i know they happened as i was there.

Also in that office we saw other ways people were taken off benefit including an eighty year old woman completely riddled with arthritis to the point she could barely move. Her family had paid for her house to be adapted as much as was possible and had basically moved her completely downstairs as she was no longer physically capable of climbing the stairs. She had a private care worker go visit her six times a day. When the atos doctor came to assess her he asked her to climb the stairs something she couldn't do and she explained to him and refused on the grounds it would cause her great distress and pain he put her down as being uncooperative with the assessment.

Within the rules which they operate under there are many ways for them to quicken the assessment process and recommend a person be taken off a medical benefit which on the surface seem all well and legitimate. I ceased working for that group because although they had plenty of proof of misdoing on the part of atos they were simply content to win the appeals when i felt they should have made a bigger deal and pushed the issue of the conduct of atos more then they did. I couldn't personally do it as i was bound by confidentiality and the only way i could have gotten the proof would have been to have stolen it which i wouldn't do on a personal level but i believe that anything i had stolen also couldn't have been used.

I would dearly love to know why this issue hasn't been taken up by the media and why atos havn't been held to account for some fo their actions and while i could repeat many things on here that i have heard from people i trust i won't as technically it would be rumour. Something is rotten in the system and does need resolving for the benefit of all but how that comes about i am not sure.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Perhaps this should be raised with Consumer programmes, such as WatchDog?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

With the greatest of respect we're talking about a limited number of "possible" claimants being treated in a way other than what they think they should. What that doesn't amount to is a system wide practice of doing so. Furthermore, in the cases RizzyKing alludes to, the judgement was found for the claimant which again does not stack up with any attempt by any party to cover up any wrong doing.

People claiming against the DWP in particular is nothing new as people do it all the time. Some could point to the confusing terminology or amount of information that seems to be required these days which leads people to answer a question in a way that might go against them rather than for them, purely because they didn't completely understand what was being asked.

The most likely reason that a scandal has never been reported is that there probably isn't one.

John

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Why not?

Why not?
through fear of violence, or the fact that there's only a few that fall foul of it?


Why not?
Actually they will. they won't be allowed to put anyone into poverty and this £39-£44 will be claimed. so there will be no such thing as 'losing your benefits' after all?

http://latestnews.virginmedia.com/ne..._lose_benefits

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I agree.

Furthermore it should, providing there is proof beyond anecdotal evidence and unsubstantiated allegations, be raised as a PQ.

Unfortunately, as things stand, no one seems able to produce / provide anything by way of such proof.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I'm not sure Gary, reading your post, what bit of it you have issue with. Let's not forget that, at the moment, these proposals are just that, proposals.

The story that the powers are not currently used is just not true. The powers are used when and where they can be enforced based on evidence collected and received.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

they have got 2 or more years to look for work

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

According to who Jeremy Vine was just talking to it will come into force.

They probably are, but probably not enough. and probably because of the fear of the person who sanctioned the claimant being attacked?

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

just a qestion Mr Duncan Smith says that millions of people had become "trapped"on benefits.
and at the same time he said there are 450,000 vacancies "
so if the 450,000 jobs are filled
what are the rest going to do ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11728546

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I find that the Governments attitude to the unemployed stinks.
I look at it this way, at the present time there is nearly 4 million people seeking JSA, there is 'supposedly' 400.000 vacancies, WHERE, each week l get newspapers with half a page of vacancies, which are normally gone by the time you get to a phone.

You go to the job centre, where jobs are approx 15/17 grand a year, you attend an interview with about 50 applicants, what chance have you got, ZERO.

You go a training centres, for what, to be taught how to right a CV, how to use a computor, and not a worthy job.

What the government has to do is provide EMPLOYMENT, and they won't as employers are moving out of the country as it is cheaper abroad, or are the government going to supply planes to take us there.

This idea is all wind, and to have a go at the genuine people who want to work, but cannot is poor.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I always thought the long term unemployed aged between 18 - 24 were 'forced' to go on YTS type schemes anyway, effectivly working for just dole and travel expenses.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Arthur, try and get your facts straight - the latest figures for the number of people claiming JSA is not nearly four million, it is 50 to 1 odds are not good, but they are not zero......

Getting taught how to write a CV and to use a computer are actually useful skills, especially in today's job market when most jobs involve using a computer.

Speaking of all wind, I think that is what you are producing.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I aim to be working with computers - not sure how that isn't a worthy job though.

As for learning how to write a CV yup, I think that is something I could be doing with.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I was going on what was stated in a previous comment.

By the time everything has been sorted out, it is claimed that a further 500.000 will be out of work.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

A new retail store opened in norwich earlier this year, over 500 people applied for 16 positions. That to me doesnt sound like a lazy unemployed.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Hi there Chrysalis, Just wondering did you manage to unearth any information in relation to your earlier posts?

Originally Posted by Chrysalis http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/im...s/viewpost.gif
Hugh I am fairly sure there is online evidence of the atos contract situation, so will try and find it for you.


Originally Posted by Chrysalis http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/im...s/viewpost.gif
In addition the new work related interviews which ESA claimants will have to undertake will be done by the private sector and that sector will be paid a lump sum for every claimant they get into work, the latter will be easy to find proof on as it was ministers themselves revealing that.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

My kindle is currently reading the white paper to me - it certainly makes for some interesting reading...

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

That's not accurate. It's claimed unemployment will peak at approximately 500,000 higher than now then will fall off as the private sector becomes more active and the economy continues and accelerates its' growth. By the time everything has been sorted out unemployment should be back to trend levels with more of that in the private sector than now.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Yes those saying were not producing what they are happy as proof are right and as i said in my case i was and still am bound by confidentiality in relation to what i personally witnessed but i would dearly love to have that restriction removed and talk to anyone in authority about it. For me it isn't a case of "is there a problem with atos" but "how deep and widespread is the problem within atos and is it of their doing or on the orders of someone higher up". Sadly neither i or anyone else here is going to get any answers on that because a whole bunch of vested interests will make damn sure no one asks too many questions.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

here is a link to the latter, actually was hard to find as seems to be gone on all news sites.
http://www.conservatives.com/News/Sp...re_reform.aspx

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Do you mean this story?

Guardian

BBC

BBC

Mail

Independent

Telegraph

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

there is numerous stories but ones I needed that specifically mentioned using the private sector for work focused interviews as well as highlighting that they are paid on results not a flat fee.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

From what I gather people complain of the places they get sent to which are different from the last. goes through the same routine of rewriting a CV they already have.
fair enough you may think, but to them it's probably a repetetive thing. especially if the CV hasn't changed since the last time it was done.

the computer skills are probably looking at the jobsites. which you probably don't get on your own computer at home :)

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

You appear (imho) to be confusing (and I understand why, reading the article) the agencies who assess people for disability conditions, and those who are tasked with finding people jobs. I was hoping for something a little more definitive.

Strangely enough, the only link I can find for a doctor being reprimanded by Atos was for one who thought they were letting "scroungers" (his words, not mine) through - link

As he says

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Hugh the problem is the people attending these interviews are people who have been determined as unfit for work, or partially able to work. The vast majority of people will never find work in normal conditions (been sent to interviews). Specific training and jobs reserved eg. like the remploy project (which is now ended).

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Thanks for your time and effort Chrysalis.

However, as other participants in addition to myself have pointed out, what you have provided a link to is a link which not only states the Conservative position immediately post Hain's welfare reform initiatives which (quite obviously) predate the current coalition position, but which further fails to corroborate what you have previously asserted as fact.

Can you provide factual proof of your various allegations & assertions?

That would be very helpful to me.

As ever, many thanks in advance.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

I have provided proof that there is 'plans' to use private companies paid on a results basis for getting claimants classified as unfit or partially fit for work into work.

The atos stuff is tougher.

But at the end of the day as I already said not one person here has shown proof on people been workshy, fraudsters and the like. They have simply accepted what they have been told. It seems what you telling me is because its someone who is in a profession then accusations against them are somehow more serious than an accusation against a claimant.

All documents I have seen are offline and I dont have ready access to, the people who would have made the decision to take things further such as taking legal action against someone like atos origin chose not to do so. The primary concern is getting people their benefits and winning appeals. Also understand I have never directly accused doctors of fraudelently lieing on reports, I said that there are reports been changed post medical and incorrect information reported regarding claimant's capabilties. In situations where the appeal has been won and the DWP backed down on these reports, it typically gets played down.

When I have hours spare (which I probably will need) I will look into online evidence of atos origin, until then its a take it or leave it. Its a shame you not so agressive in persuing evidence from the DWP and government on their own claims such as.

5 billion lost to benefit fraud each year.
majority of incapacity benefit claimants capable of work.

The reason evidence is hard to come by is because atos origin are protected from freedom of information requests. In effect the only way possible is either due to a leak or spying.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

No, unfortunately you haven't - not beyond what was previously (certainly pre 2008) considered de rigeur practice for recruitment agencies as I pointed out earlier.

Actually it's not. Their Memorandum of Incorporation and Articles of Association are available from Companies House (as are their accounts) and the contract of engagement via the DWP and the terms of reference thereof are available under the terms of the competitive tendering processes covered by the FOI.

I would point you to the DWP statistics backed up by prosecution records such as this (of which there are many thousands across the UK). The difference between your position and one of logic is that logic can provide clear and easily identifiable examples of the abuses that have lead to the current situation. Not "heresay" nor "rumour" but factual abuses. You, on the other hand, are adopting the old "Fingers in ears attitude".

Why?

If, as you have alleged they have access to information and proof as you have alleged then they are, moreso than the Government, betraying the sick and ill whom you would have us all believe are most at risk.

Errr...I think you'll find that you said "In the days of hand written reports doctors used to alter reports with false information after the claimant had signed the old one off".

No, I think you'll find that you are attempting to backtrack by incorrectly interpreting the comments of the adjudication in relation to "Mrs E's" dismissed appeal which I provided a link to earlier.

Yes, please do take as many hours as you like. I, and others, await your factually researched reply. I'm rather more proactive, dogged and aggressive in researching facts (whether as stated by the DWP or others) than what might be normally considered "comfortable" by certain parties.

You, of all people, I would have thought would have realized that.

Not so, for reasons pointed out earlier. I rather suspect that "The reason evidence is hard to come by" which might support your rather preposterous assertions is, quite simply, because it does not exist.

I am, of course, open to correction.

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

Re: Unemployed could be forced to do compulsory manual labour
 

So are you saying the fraudsters and workshy don't exist? I think reports that exist in all types of media have proved that not to be the case.

I'm now not sure from what you say whether you are posting based on fact or your interpretation of the "plans" you mentioned. I'm not even sure which bit you're talking about. Either the part where people are being marked fit for work when they're not or the part about getting people back into work which, for me, are totally seperate issues.

I'd really like to take what you say on board but it's getting incredibly difficult to do so.

John

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Actually, I don't know about the specific case in question, but I have a friend who used to work in BBC news.

She was told that the BBC are given full information on all major criminal cases by the police, and they frequently do hold it back. They know because, apparently, in the event the info is leaked, they can help control the flow, but will not do so unless they know everything.

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But that's not necessarily suppression of a story..:erm:

Anyway I think that this really is beside the point.There is no real prof that the sick and incapable are to be targeted in this proposal.The present government aren't stupid and won't want to risk the idea being undermined by someone dying whilst picking up litter because they weren't really fit to work.;)

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True, it's not, and it is beside the point really..

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Yes they are. Much the same as all the others have been.

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I am not saying they dont exist, but I am saying they not the majority of claimants. Thats my opinion tho, whilst the media have also stated an opinion (not a fact).

The only thing proven is there is 'some' fraudsters. However the media have a vested interest in this, they are clearly putting time and effort into looking for extreme cases. The bbc also done numerous tv documentaries on it, and the only documentary they did on claimants been treated badly was only aired in scotland and not england.

End of the day its propoganda and people are sheep, the media can choose to pick on any part of society at any given moment and they will be believed.

---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 16:54 ----------

The bbc printed a story where david freud (when working for labour) got interviewed and started talking about the changes the government was planning such as not using GP's to carry out medicals and the private sector doing work focused interviews.

not sure if this is the exact story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7223687.stm

There is 3 key problems I had with the story I asked the bbc about.

1 - David Freud didnt back up any of his statements with proof (fewer than 1/3rd legit claimants).
2 - David Freud according to his boss, was not employed by the government which means he was not allowed to talk to the press about government policy.
3 - Some of what was published was clearly innacurate such as the GP's handling medicals which would clearly mislead the public, atos origin were already doing medicals for years when this was published.

The bbc refused to take the story down as you can see its still there.

This guy is behind much of whats happening, he moved to the tories when it was clear labour werent going to win the next election so he could carry on pushing through his plans, he is an ex banker, so quite what his skills are that apply to welfare I dont know.

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The fraudsters may not be the majority of claimants ,but they are a big enough minority to warrant tougher sanctions to stop them .If they are defrauding the DSS then it is highly likely that a large proportion of them are defrauding HMRC by working illegaly and not paying tax .If for example 100 people are taken off benefits because they are proven to be defrauding ,out of those 100 ,50 are working on the black market ,they will then have to go legit in their black market jobs (if possible) therefore paying tax and not taking benefit ,the remaining 50 from the original 100 will now have to find work to pay for the things that benefits used to,so there will in theory be 100 people not taking benefits but paying tax.
Probably a complicated way to explain it but i hope you take my meaning

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This is down to point of view.

The question is which is worse? denying someone benefit who needs it or letting more get away with fraud. To me the former is by far the worse scenario, because if someone doesnt get sickness benefit thats it they have nothing, if then no family or friends carry them they have no way to survive. Whilst the latter is simply just some lost money which is of course offset by underpaid benefits from people not claiming or not getting what they deserve. If draconian rules are in place legit people will be turned down or forced off, no question about it. We seem to be struggling to accept that there will always be fraud and as such its to be written off, the only way to get it down to 0 is to remove the ability to claim full stop. The media managed to get HB caps put in place but again when looking at the data the amount of people who were actually claiming silly HB was a very small fraction, confirmed by the DWP themselves. But the way it was reported made it seem like a widespread problem.

In short the strongest backs can bare the burden better.

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i'm not saying that benefit fraud can be reduced to zero ,nor am i saying that the government are trying to reduce it to zero ,the point i am trying to make is that the level of fraud at the moment is unsustainable and a large minority of all claims .If the level of fraud had remained at a small minority then perhaps such measures as are being proposed wouldn't be necessary.
I think the main problem is that some claimants don't understand that the money they get comes from tax payers ,they don't understand that the more people on benefits of whatever type means less money going to the treasury to pay for a climbing benefit bill

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Whats your thoughts on that? granted no proof to back it, but do you think that figure is wrong?

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I would suggest that the figures are wrong ,I have mentioned before in other threads that i do a lot of regeneration work for LA's and everyday i see people/families who do not work ,kids sitting in their rooms playing x-box ,nice tv's ,ect,ect ,my new apprentice(18yrs) of 3months is the first member of his close family to have a job ,i pay him 25% of what i earn usually he comes out with about £200 pw after tax ,a decent wage for a school leaver living at home i think and a good incentive to continue working knowing that when he is fully qualified his earnings will reach my level and he won't have to keep looking over his shoulder like his dad .If this way of thinking were to be encouraged more with younger people i don't think we would have such a problem ,and the first step imo is getting them out the house and into a working enviroment to show them that a working life can be rewarding

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You will be asked for proof:(

No the figure is not wrong but is fairly old. It is the figure released by DWP and presumably within the report are the numbers that caused such consternation within the coalition. For DLA, errors were 3X fraud but I guess people are easy to deal with whereas bureaucrats behind computer systems are almost impossible to address.

This URL links to a DWP Pdf file. Read down to the box on where the money goes and under incapacity benefit fraud you will find the 0.5 number. Like an accountant having a field day with an Excel spreadsheet there are enough statistics and guestimates to make the whole thing incomprehensible but on a quick read through it looks like if the payee and recipient were in the case of the former, incompetent and in the case of the latter given forms that were incomprehensible. An awful lot of money could have been saved with efficiency. Methinks the cross-hairs are trained on the wrong target as first choice.

http://campaigns.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2...pr08_mar09.pdf

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That is true, much more money is lost to error then fraud.

Of course I never said if I think the 0.5% is accurate but rather asked if he thought was accurate and he has answered my question now.

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I made a mistake. I have never claimed any benefits and misread the document. The number of different ones defies logic for someone who has never been in the system;).

I quoted "disability living allowance" whereas your input quote refers to "incapacity benefit". The latter is quoted for 2008\9 as 1.0% fraud @ 70million.

If your request was an open invitation for comments then on that particular benefit the official figures for 2008\9 do not offer credibility to the author's claim. However there is a later document that claims the 05% fraud figure which supports the author's claim (Table 2.1 page 9) .... URL below. Begs the question of how the numbers changed so much in such a short time?.

http://research.dwp.gov.uk/asd/asd2/...ct08_sep09.pdf

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The author was from a 2008 article so figures would have been older.

I agree is odd how it can go from 0.5% to 1% in the space of 1-2 years. As thats doubling the figure.

As for the complexity and number of benefits, I understand the reason, as its precisely why I hate the idea of a universal credit. A single benefit assumes everyone has the same needs.

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The Universal Credit will be made up of multiple components, so everyone will not get the same amount, but it will all be dealt with in one system, to ensure (as far as possible), "one view" of the benefits being given/received, rather than the disparate sources at present. BBC At the moment, people get different amounts for housing benefit, child tax credit, income support, et al - this would continue, but from one source - "Universal" does not mean "standard", but standardised.

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Hugh I mean people off work due to illness will get the same as on the dole. That is very wrong. The amount should be the same as the pension as they off work due to an incapability to work.

The only variances on the universal credit will be due to children (surprise surprise), and topups for housing and council tax costs.

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Not strictly true. Any long term ill people who are in receipt of care will receive both a care component and a premium on to their ESA. Also, there is no six month cut off for contribution based ESA as there is for JSA.

So, in essence, it mirrors what happens in the work place anyway. People who are off sick from work don't receive a greater amount than if they were at their place of work.

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I got paid more when sick all week of work, because some of my pay was made up of normal sick pay which appeared to be not taxed and then topped up with sick pay from my company so my gross pay was the same but net pay was higher. ;)

The sick pay you get in the workplace even without topups from the company is more than the dole. The majority of people in receipt of ESA/IB do not get the care component (DLA). Also I am talking about now the universal credit rather than ESA.

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Not sure why your wages went up for being ill. Any jobs going there that you know of?

I know that a company salary is more than the dole, I was just making the point that being "ill" doesn't necessarily make you need or want any more money. If those people are not getting a care component then I'm confused why they would need more money than someone else.

As has been said before "Universal Credit" is just a name under which benefit elements would be delivered in much the same way as companies like BT and Virgin supply all your different services into one "universal" bill. The amount at the end is still the same, it's just presented in a different way.

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Chrys, sick pay is taxed - someone at your work was doing something wrong.

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maybe someone messed up, but my net pay was higher, and a quick bit of maths in my head appeared to show the sick pay as untaxed, but the sick pay was made up of 2 components.

Statutory Sick Pay - this is what everyone gets regardless of company policy? this appeared to be untaxed and if I am not mistaken was the same as short term higher rate incapacity benefit.

Company sick pay - this topped up my pay to match my normal gross pay and appeared to be taxed as normal.

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The employer claims the SSP back from the Government (by reducing the SSP amounts from the total payroll deductions the employer sends to HMRC), but it should still be taxed and subject to NI deductions - your payroll is borked.....:D (luckily in your favour)

(I used to write/implement payroll systems, and have to authorise the sick pay for the people in my department, so am fairly au fait with it...).

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Yep I read the same info when making my post, I agree they messed up.