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lucy7 22-03-2009 22:33
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischievious (Post 34759921)
I wondered previously at Maggy and Russ comments concerning Atheists have it easy.

Now I see why but the reason as far as I can tell is because people of faith allow atheists to take the armchair approach. The Atheists here have a solid I don't believe you approach to whatever a person of faith offers. What do Atheists offer apart from I don't believe?

That is an atheists right Mischevious, they dont have to believe or offer up any evidence against.

It is possibly easier for them, as they do not have to speak up for what us believers see as Bible truth, when ones pesonal belief in God is challenged, or maybe a better word is, questioned.

Gary L 22-03-2009 22:35
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmitage (Post 34759971)
So did I. In a nostalgic sort of way;)

First heard David Copperfield ( comic from 3 of a kind - not magician ) tell it over 30 years ago.

It's still a few years younger than most of my jokes though. :)
Somebody really did go to heaven and speak to God?

lucy7 22-03-2009 22:36
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34759973)
The one about the 2 boats and an helicopter.
it didn't quote properly.

:nutter: :)


Whos a nutter???

Name calling now are we??

Help, this Christian is being persecuted!! :D:angel:;)

Chris 22-03-2009 22:38
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34759907)
Apart from the Bible possibly not being true. we're more advanced today than then. and would be able to make a quick decision as to whether the miracle being performed is sufficient enough as proof?

You have to see it as when you say to me The Bible suggests.. to me it's like you saying to me My Dad says..
doesn't mean it's true to me just because it is to you.
Far be it from me to get into a circular argument. I don't expect you to believe in the Bible. But I do, so I take it seriously when it tells me that plenty of people witnessed miracles and yet failed to believe in Jesus as a result. NB by 'believe in' I don't mean 'accept the existence of', I mean believe his teaching, trust him, follow him, etc.

I wouldn't attempt to persuade you with miracles because I don't believe it would make a difference to you. Even if a miraculous event caused you to concede the point that God might exist, or even go so far as to accept that he does exist, accepting that God exists doesn't get you anywhere. Unashamed Bible quotation: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."

God isn't looking for people to concede an intellectual point. He's looking for people who will get into relationship with him, trust him, obey him and worship him.

mischievious 22-03-2009 22:42
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34759974)
And you seem to like sitting in his pocket...;)
Nope sorry you're wrong there, I have my own thoughts on things.

Gary L 22-03-2009 22:47
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34759980)
Whos a nutter???

Name calling now are we??
Don't say that. you'll get me arrested :)

Quote:
Help, this Christian is being persecuted!! :D:angel:;)
Who's nicked the devil smilie from the list?

lucy7 22-03-2009 22:48
Re: The existence of God
 
Forum posts are never going to be a way to get people to understand about if God exists or not.

They get people who want to think about it more deeply, thinking more deeply!

Others will just think, what a load of typists going over board with their thoughts on religion.

I would repeat, if any one really wants to know more, do it by personally looking into it all, and check things out for yourself.

Or just wait till I knock on your door!!!!

:);)

Gary L 22-03-2009 22:55
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34759981)
Far be it from me to get into a circular argument. I don't expect you to believe in the Bible. But I do, so I take it seriously when it tells me that plenty of people witnessed miracles and yet failed to believe in Jesus as a result. NB by 'believe in' I don't mean 'accept the existence of', I mean believe his teaching, trust him, follow him, etc.
It's all about belief.

Quote:
I wouldn't attempt to persuade you with miracles because I don't believe it would make a difference to you. Even if a miraculous event caused you to concede the point that God might exist, or even go so far as to accept that he does exist, accepting that God exists doesn't get you anywhere. Unashamed Bible quotation: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."
They would have to be new miracles. not the ones from the Bible.

Quote:
God isn't looking for people to concede an intellectual point. He's looking for people who will get into relationship with him, trust him, obey him and worship him.
He has them kind of people now.

---------- Post added at 23:55 ---------- Previous post was at 23:54 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34759988)
Or just wait till I knock on your door!!!!

:);)
I need converting :D

Chris 22-03-2009 22:58
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34759994)
It's all about belief.
You're absolutely right. And you can't borrow someone else's belief. Everyone who has a relationship with God has their own, personal to them. But belief and faith are not blind or unproven. If I choose to take a ride on a zip wire, it's because I believe it is well made enough to take my weight. But once I put my trust in the equpment, that trust is tested and proven. It's not dissimilar with God. He's not a theoretical entity; to those who have believed and trusted in him he has shown himself to be close at hand and very real.

Quote:
They would have to be new miracles. not the ones from the Bible.
Yes, I assumed that's what you meant.

Quote:
He has them kind of people now.
And yet he still wants you. ;)

lucy7 22-03-2009 22:59
Re: The existence of God
 
You sure do Gary!
One day, maybe!

Goodnight all, God bless, sweet dreams, my bed is calling me.

Gary L 22-03-2009 23:22
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34759997)
And yet he still wants you. ;)
Tell him to join the queue :)

---------- Post added at 00:22 ---------- Previous post was at 00:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34759998)
You sure do Gary!
One day, maybe!

Goodnight all, God bless, sweet dreams, my bed is calling me.
I swear I heard someone calling my name too :)

Maggy 22-03-2009 23:50
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34759975)
That is an atheists right Mischevious, they dont have to believe or offer up any evidence against.

It is possibly easier for them, as they do not have to speak up for what us believers see as Bible truth, when ones pesonal belief in God is challenged, or maybe a better word is, questioned.
Easier?Hmmm! I dunno about that..could be that it's harder to explain everything scientifically when there is as yet no scientific proof for every circumstance whereas those of faith can simply say I believe in spite of there being no proof of what they believe.

Hope that makes sense..I really should be in bed...;)

TheDaddy 23-03-2009 04:57
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34759953)
Possibly but how many times has religion been made the scapegoat for bad behaviour when in reality it's been man's greed that instigates wars..indeed those so called crusades that were to reclaim the holy land(which we never owned in the first place) were nothing more than an excuse to exploit the situation to extract anything of value in any way possible including hostage taking for monetary gain...
The crusades cause was due to the expansionist Seljuk Turks threatening Byzantine Constantinople, nothing at all to do with religion, however what happened later like the Jerusalem massacre, the Children's crusade and Peter the Hermit's crusade were sadly caused by religious zeal alone.

Maggy 23-03-2009 11:21
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34760039)
The crusades cause was due to the expansionist Seljuk Turks threatening Byzantine Constantinople, nothing at all to do with religion, however what happened later like the Jerusalem massacre, the Children's crusade and Peter the Hermit's crusade were sadly caused by religious zeal alone.
Actually I rather think the Children's Crusade was a cruel financial venture on the part of some wily slavers...Indeed there is some doubt as to the truth of these incidents..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade

Also I doubt that every member of any of the crusading armies were there purely for converting Muslims..they were there for what profit they could make..especially in opening up trade routes...

Sad how the pacifist religion of Christ got twisted by later generations into an 'army of God' when Jesus's emphasis was on the 10 commandments, especially that of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'.:(

TheDaddy 23-03-2009 12:32
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34760164)
Actually I rather think the Children's Crusade was a cruel financial venture on the part of some wily slavers...Indeed there is some doubt as to the truth of these incidents..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children%27s_Crusade

Also I doubt that every member of any of the crusading armies were there purely for converting Muslims..they were there for what profit they could make..especially in opening up trade routes...

Sad how the pacifist religion of Christ got twisted by later generations into an 'army of God' when Jesus's emphasis was on the 10 commandments, especially that of 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'.:(
I actually meant the parents thinking it was a good idea letting their children go in the first place!

Maggy 23-03-2009 13:28
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34760204)
I actually meant the parents thinking it was a good idea letting their children go in the first place!
Well it's apparently a misunderstanding over the word used to describe children in the original crusade..it may not have meant children but the poor that wandered nomadically through Europe at the time...So no parental permission needed...:)

TheDaddy 23-03-2009 13:40
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34760251)
Well it's apparently a misunderstanding over the word used to describe children in the original crusade..it may not have meant children but the poor that wandered nomadically through Europe at the time...So no parental permission needed...:)
I think you are confusing that with Peter the Hermit because there is historical record that:

Towards the end of June the children massed at Vendôme. Awed contemporaries spoke of thirty thousand, not one over twelve years of age. There were certainly several thousand of them, collected from all parts of the country, some of them simple peasants, whose parents in many cases had willingly let them go on their great mission. But there were also boys of noble birth who had slipped away from home to join Stephen and his following of "minor prophets" as the chroniclers called them. There were also girls amongst them, a few young priests, and a few older pilgrims, some drawn by piety, others, perhaps, from pity, and others, certainly, to share in the gifts that were showered upon them all. The bands came crowding into the town, each with a leader carrying a copy of the Oriflamme, which Stephen took as the device of the Crusade. The town could not contain them all, and they encamped in the fields outside.

Maggy 23-03-2009 13:48
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34760257)
I think you are confusing that with Peter the Hermit because there is historical record that:

Towards the end of June the children massed at Vendôme. Awed contemporaries spoke of thirty thousand, not one over twelve years of age. There were certainly several thousand of them, collected from all parts of the country, some of them simple peasants, whose parents in many cases had willingly let them go on their great mission. But there were also boys of noble birth who had slipped away from home to join Stephen and his following of "minor prophets" as the chroniclers called them. There were also girls amongst them, a few young priests, and a few older pilgrims, some drawn by piety, others, perhaps, from pity, and others, certainly, to share in the gifts that were showered upon them all. The bands came crowding into the town, each with a leader carrying a copy of the Oriflamme, which Stephen took as the device of the Crusade. The town could not contain them all, and they encamped in the fields outside.
I'm not..there is a firm suggestion that the Children's Crusade is a medieval 'legend' according to modern historians.

Sad isn't it how they keep debunking one's favourite historical events.:(

TheDaddy 23-03-2009 13:58
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34760261)
I'm not..there is a firm suggestion that the Children's Crusade is a medieval 'legend' according to modern historians.

Sad isn't it how they keep debunking one's favourite historical events.:(
Possible suggestion perhaps, to many people documented it at the time for it to be legend, embellished perhaps, made up unlikely imo.

And yes I have always been a fan, the Pied Piper tale was what first caught my interest in it.

Maggy 23-03-2009 15:53
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 34760264)
Possible suggestion perhaps, to many people documented it at the time for it to be legend, embellished perhaps, made up unlikely imo.

And yes I have always been a fan, the Pied Piper tale was what first caught my interest in it.

Don't forget the 'media' of the time was rather limited.It was all word of mouth and you know how a story can change if that's the only way it gets passed on.It's not like everyone could read.;)

LondonRoad 25-03-2009 07:36
Re: The existence of God
 
Is the BBC news magazine scanning CF for article ideas?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7955846.stm

Maggy 25-03-2009 08:46
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmitage (Post 34761762)
Is the BBC news magazine scanning CF for article ideas?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7955846.stm
Interesting find..and thank you for dragging us back on topic..;)

kingbuxton 28-03-2009 00:54
Re: The existence of God
 
I try not to think about it, I don't believe, and haven't for many years. But then, I am not convinced with evolution. I also find it hard to grasp the concept of it all starts with a "Big Bang" OK, so what was floating around before that? Now, nothing can come from nothing, everything needs a start, and that start always has a preceding element........and on and on and on and on.....infinity, holy crap it's 3am!

I will say this, if some "Being" does exist, then I hope I get 2 mins to see him, would love to ask about the sick joke mankind is, I really want to hear the punchline.

They say God moves in mysterious ways! He certainly does. He seems to be Moonwalking all over us at the moment.

Seeing some of the stuff going on (and that has gone on, cheers www) do you really respect a God that allows that to happen? Especially, based on the fact that there can be only one, when he allows it to be done in the name of a false God, whichever that may be, although I don't believe in any of them...............and hence it's just a nice planet contaminated with a failed species!

frogstamper 28-03-2009 02:09
Re: The existence of God
 
Oohh poo I've only just found this thread, I trust everybody has had a good time with this old acorn? even Chris and Russ I expect.:)

Oh well I'll just catch the next thread on religion, I'm sure it won't be too long, maybe a nice one to get our teeth into would be....woo-wooo "Creationism".:)

Gary L 28-03-2009 09:53
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingbuxton (Post 34763928)
They say God moves in mysterious ways! He certainly does. He seems to be Moonwalking all over us at the moment.

Seeing some of the stuff going on (and that has gone on, cheers www) do you really respect a God that allows that to happen? Especially, based on the fact that there can be only one, when he allows it to be done in the name of a false God, whichever that may be, although I don't believe in any of them...............and hence it's just a nice planet contaminated with a failed species!
He made us, and won't help us. he leaves us to kill and to make each other suffer. it's all happening at the moment and we are all content because we know that after we have gone through the suffering stages and eventually die. we're going to heaven where there is no suffering.

Hugh 28-03-2009 10:02
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34764033)
He made us, and won't help us. he leaves us to kill and to make each other suffer. it's all happening at the moment and we are all content because we know that after we have gone through the suffering stages and eventually die. we're going to heaven where there is no suffering.
There are entry requirements, you know.......;)

Gary L 28-03-2009 10:06
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34764041)
There are entry requirements, you know.......;)
What. only people that he's left to suffer and die are allowed in? :)

kingbuxton 28-03-2009 10:13
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
we're going to heaven where there is no suffering.
It's a nice thought.

Gary L 28-03-2009 10:33
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingbuxton (Post 34764048)
It's a nice thought.
It's something to look forward to. like a meaning in life. a sort of a goal at the end.

Hugh 28-03-2009 10:50
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34764044)
What. only people that he's left to suffer and die are allowed in? :)
a) how do you know it's a he?
b) we all die, so not really narrowing it down much, are you, G old boy?
b) apparently no derriere-pits, so behavioural modification may be indicated.....;)

Maggy 28-03-2009 11:00
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34763935)
Oohh poo I've only just found this thread, I trust everybody has had a good time with this old acorn? even Chris and Russ I expect.:)

Oh well I'll just catch the next thread on religion, I'm sure it won't be too long, maybe a nice one to get our teeth into would be....woo-wooo "Creationism".:)
For once the usual suspects have been a little more respectful with their opinions and thus far this thread has been better than the average CF religion threads.Well done.;)

Gary L 28-03-2009 11:09
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34764089)
a) how do you know it's a he?
I can call it it if you want?

Quote:
b) we all die, so not really narrowing it down much, are you, G old boy?
Some of us die naturally. some of us are tortured, and left to suffer agonising pain before we die. that's the part I'm narrowing down.

Quote:
b) apparently no derriere-pits, so behavioural modification may be indicated.....;)
:confused: :)

LondonRoad 28-03-2009 11:09
Re: The existence of God
 
;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34764094)
For once the usual suspects have been a little more respectful with their opinions and thus far this thread has been better than the average CF religion threads.Well done.;)
You're tempting faith, I mean fate. ;)

Maggy 28-03-2009 11:20
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by harmitage (Post 34764100)
;)

You're tempting faith, I mean fate. ;)
Then I'll come back and make my opinions and wishes clear..again.;)

banjo 28-03-2009 11:24
Re: The existence of God
 
John 12. 20-33

Russ 28-03-2009 11:24
Re: The existence of God
 
Romans 10:9

Maggy 28-03-2009 11:28
Re: The existence of God
 
For those who need an interpretation

http://www.biblegateway.com/

Gary L 28-03-2009 11:33
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34764111)
For those who need an interpretation

http://www.biblegateway.com/
Thanks. I've mislaid my Bible :)

LondonRoad 28-03-2009 20:49
Re: The existence of God
 
I thought I'd wandered into the national lottery results there. ;)

frogstamper 28-03-2009 20:52
Re: The existence of God
 
Aahh!! Brighton 3 Woking 1 :)

LondonRoad 28-03-2009 20:57
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34764498)
Aahh!! Brighton 3 Woking 1 :)
I believe in God. I don't believe Brighton could score 3 goals...... unless there is a higher force at work. ;)

kingbuxton 28-03-2009 21:01
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
For once the usual suspects have been a little more respectful with their opinions
The problem is that each side tends to try and convert the other side to their opinion, in that they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist that they can't take other people having an opposite view. As long as you say "I don't believe" but have respect for someone that does, and I do, it takes some doing to have faith, especially in todays climate, then there is no reason it should end up with a "My dad can beat up your dad" type discussion.

LondonRoad 28-03-2009 21:10
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingbuxton (Post 34764514)
The problem is that each side tends to try and convert the other side to their opinion, in that they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist that they can't take other people having an opposite view. As long as you say "I don't believe" but have respect for someone that does, and I do, it takes some doing to have faith, especially in todays climate, then there is no reason it should end up with a "My dad can beat up your dad" type discussion.
I agree. You should never try to convert anybody who strongly believes one way or the other. It's not like an argument about who is going to win the league, or who will be elected, or best film at the Oscars. We'll find things like that out eventually whereas we've a while to wait for the day of reckoning..... I hope.

kingbuxton 28-03-2009 21:23
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
we've a while to wait for the day of reckoning..... I hope
See, that is the funny thing. I don't believe, but I still hope it is real. Maybe it's me, I dunno, but to be passing the Pearl Gates on a conveyor to Hell will be kinda amusing in a "S**t" (Do it in a Dr Evil voice) sorta way, Ned Flanders made real pointing and laughing at me and Blasphemous Rumours blasting away in the background.

TheDaddy 29-03-2009 05:44
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingbuxton (Post 34764514)
The problem is that each side tends to try and convert the other side to their opinion, in that they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist that they can't take other people having an opposite view. As long as you say "I don't believe" but have respect for someone that does, and I do, it takes some doing to have faith, especially in todays climate, then there is no reason it should end up with a "My dad can beat up your dad" type discussion.
Hmm in all the religious threads I have seen and participated in during my time here I have never seen anyone try and convert another member, what usually happens is some one posts a seemingly innocent question or article, receives answers which are then questioned by other members and then some dunce wades in with a line like 'it's all fairy tales init' the thread then degenerates and eventually gets closed.

Whilst I agree that people with strong beliefs either way wont be swayed they imo generally aren't the problem here.

Russ 29-03-2009 07:42
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingbuxton (Post 34764514)
The problem is that each side tends to try and convert the other side to their opinion, in that they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist that they can't take other people having an opposite view.
That has NEVER happened on here. Nobody has ever tried to convert a non-believer to Christianity on CF.

kingbuxton 29-03-2009 14:29
Re: The existence of God
 
Well that's what always seems to happen on the ones I have seen prev. You're wrong, no you are, no you are.............it wasn't specific to this place.

Gary L 29-03-2009 14:53
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34764653)
That has NEVER happened on here. Nobody has ever tried to convert a non-believer to Christianity on CF.
I was propositioned by one once :)
I don't think he is trying to say that it's full on conversion to christianity. it's always been just differences of opinion given as far as I see.

Russ 29-03-2009 15:22
Re: The existence of God
 
I'm on one of the 'sides' that KB refers to (he's pretty specific about that) and I've never tried to convert anyone.

kingbuxton 29-03-2009 16:00
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
I'm on one of the 'sides' that KB refers to (he's pretty specific about that)
Did I? It was supposed to be a generalisation, I have no idea who the "Usual Suspects" are, if that is you, then I appologise, it was an accident on my part, it wasn't aimed at anyone, let alone anyone on here.

---------- Post added at 16:00 ---------- Previous post was at 15:57 ----------

Quote:
they have such a strong belief that He/She/It does or doesn't exist
I also meant it in both directions, just in case that wasn't clear, it's not me bashing believers.

Russ 29-03-2009 16:10
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kingbuxton (Post 34764902)
Did I? It was supposed to be a generalisation, I have no idea who the "Usual Suspects" are, if that is you, then I appologise, it was an accident on my part, it wasn't aimed at anyone, let alone anyone on here.
Well nobody on here has ever tried to force their religion on anyone else - and you didn't make it clear you weren't referring to CF but we've cleared that up now.

banjo 29-03-2009 16:10
Re: The existence of God
 
Hebrews 5. 5-10

kingbuxton 29-03-2009 16:22
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
but we've cleared that up now
Cool.

papa smurf 29-03-2009 16:45
Re: The existence of God
 
m5 jn 6

Gary L 29-03-2009 16:52
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 34764933)
m5 jn 6
:D

banjo 29-03-2009 17:04
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 34764933)
m5 jn 6
Now you have reverted to type, typing gibberish

Maggy 29-03-2009 17:07
Re: The existence of God
 
Now ,now let's not start abusing each other at this stage.

Gary L 29-03-2009 17:14
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34764948)
Now ,now let's not start abusing each other at this stage.
Later then? :confused: :)

---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by banjo (Post 34764909)
Hebrews 5. 5-10
This is not supposed to be funny. I don't do funny. but what does it mean?
Is it just a random passage you posted or is it in answer to a previous post?


5So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.[a]"[b] 6And he says in another place,
"You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek."[c]

7During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. 8Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him 10and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Maggy 29-03-2009 17:18
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34764950)
Later then? :confused: :)
Better not..not even in jest.

Gary L 29-03-2009 17:19
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34764955)
Better not..not even in jest.
let's not start abusing each other at this stage.

Maggy it reads as you are saying no abusing each other yet.

Maggy 29-03-2009 17:21
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34764958)
let's not start abusing each other at this stage.

Maggy it reads as you are saying no abusing each other yet.
Looks like you are arguing with a moderator?Surely not?

Gary L 29-03-2009 17:23
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 34764959)
Looks like you are arguing with a moderator?Surely not?
Not at all. I probably just can't understand my own language properly.

Hugh 29-03-2009 18:28
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34764961)
Not at all. I probably just can't understand my own language properly.
You're not the only one................ :D

Gary L 29-03-2009 18:46
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34765005)
You're not the only one................ :D
I don't think there's anything you haven't disagreed with me yet. is there? :)

Hugh 29-03-2009 18:50
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34765021)
I don't think there's anything you haven't disagreed with me yet. is there? :)
But I just agreed with you - I'm confused. :confused:

btw, the multiple negatives are confusing, imho.

dilli-theclaw 29-03-2009 18:58
Re: The existence of God
 
I will make it easy for everyone. Return to the topic NOW - ANY more off topic posts may be removed and infractions issued

lucy7 01-04-2009 21:16
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34764863)
I was propositioned by one once :)
I don't think he is trying to say that it's full on conversion to christianity. it's always been just differences of opinion given as far as I see.


Glad you said "he" otherwise folk might of thought it was me Gary!;);)

Gary L 01-04-2009 21:19
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34766932)
Glad you said "he" otherwise folk might of thought it was me Gary!;);)
I told you it was our little secret, didn't I? ;) :)

mischievious 02-04-2009 23:16
Re: The existence of God
 
Maybe it is just me but when you look at the "pure" mathmatics and it is possible to prove that something huge exists outside of our reality. I tend to take note....

It is easy for atheists etc. to keep banging on about if you can't see, touch, smell etc. the how can it be proved? Further if it can't be proved it can't exist.... Though for me that really means "it can't be proved" which can go either way....

I would ask please disprove the math?

For the record and as I have not posted for a few days I am (true) agnostic and happy to accept both sides of the argument. ;)

Gary L 02-04-2009 23:24
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischievious (Post 34767649)
Maybe it is just me but when you look at the "pure" mathmatics and it is possible to prove that something huge exists outside of our reality. I tend to take note....

I would ask please disprove the math?
I will when you show proof of the math to disprove :)

Russ 02-04-2009 23:30
Re: The existence of God
 
Maths please :)

mischievious 02-04-2009 23:38
Re: The existence of God
 
well depending on how you see things i.e. math (american typically) or maths (uk typically)..... The original link wich I believe was on page 15 of this thread:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7955846.stm

suggests from several experts that there may well be a higher calling.... the possibility is God not probability. My job is easy I accept that I am open to both sides but I love thought provoking ideas and the idea that math(s) can prove that there are things we just don't know inc the possibility of the divine.

Russ 02-04-2009 23:41
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischievious (Post 34767657)
well depending on how you see things i.e. math (american typically) or maths (uk typically).....
This is a UK forum so americanisms (in place of our own perfectly acceptable versions) should be left at the door ;)

Gary L 02-04-2009 23:45
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischievious (Post 34767657)
well depending on how you see things i.e. math (american typically) or maths (uk typically)..... The original link wich I believe was on page 15 of this thread:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7955846.stm
I think they're not taking into account the Big Bang. God wouldn't have survived the Big Bang.
unless he was after the Big Bang. but if he was after the Big Bang then some say that it was the Big Bang that created the earth. and if that is the case then God didn't create it so there can't be a God?

Russ 02-04-2009 23:47
Re: The existence of God
 
Some suggest the Big Bang was the moment God said "Let there be light" - that's the theory I prefer :)

Gary L 02-04-2009 23:51
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ B (Post 34767663)
Some suggest the Big Bang was the moment God said "Let there be light" - that's the theory I prefer :)
I prefer the "Let there be noise" theory. it's more convincing :)

frogstamper 03-04-2009 00:06
Re: The existence of God
 
Well folks I think I'd opt for "Let there be Dawkins".;)

mischievious 03-04-2009 00:09
Re: The existence of God
 
Gary:
I don't think the "Big Bang" was a literal noise definition. I think it meant an explosion of matter from a concentric point. Also you assume that God didn't create the phenomenon..... Also your comment seems to assume that god is/was/"would be" negatively affected by such an event.

I assume therefore that your comments were purely jovial?

Gary L 03-04-2009 00:28
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mischievious (Post 34767668)
Gary:
I don't think the "Big Bang" was a literal noise definition. I think it meant an explosion of matter from a concentric point.
It might have been quiet from down here, but you would have heard it up there.

Quote:
Also you assume that God didn't create the phenomenon..... Also your comment seems to assume that god is/was/"would be" negatively affected by such an event.
I don't know if he was even around at the event. but surely something colossal as the earth being created it would mean that anything outside/within/around it wouldn't survive?

Quote:
I assume therefore that your comments were purely jovial?
No they were dead serious.

---------- Post added at 01:28 ---------- Previous post was at 01:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogstamper (Post 34767667)
Well folks I think I'd opt for "Let there be Dawkins".;)
Wasn't he the non fictional author?

mischievious 03-04-2009 00:50
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767669)
I don't know if he was even around at the event. but surely something colossal as the earth being created it would mean that anything outside/within/around it wouldn't survive?
Since I have to point out the obvious.....?

Why?

Also, you consider EARTH as collosal, I was expecting the universe...

lucy7 03-04-2009 07:11
Re: The existence of God
 
Even scientists are now going against the big bang therory.
Stephen Hawkings book "A Brief History of Time" could be one to read for this, but it will take you ages and gets a bit confusing at times!
There is no evidence to prove the world was created in a big bang, not that I have found anyway!
Most who subscribe to this therory have very dogmatic view points on it, but the more they say it, does not make it correct! ;)

We once thought the world was flat.
This was proved incorrect!

Russ 03-04-2009 08:25
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767664)
I prefer the "Let there be noise" theory. it's more convincing :)
Now you see, a good example of me willing to accept some of your theory but you not willing to accept any of mine.

downquark1 03-04-2009 08:55
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34767707)
Even scientists are now going against the big bang therory.
Stephen Hawkings book "A Brief History of Time" could be one to read for this, but it will take you ages and gets a bit confusing at times!
There is no evidence to prove the world was created in a big bang, not that I have found anyway!
Most who subscribe to this therory have very dogmatic view points on it, but the more they say it, does not make it correct! ;)

We once thought the world was flat.
This was proved incorrect!
Where in a brief history of time does Hawking's criticise the big bang theory?

lucy7 03-04-2009 08:57
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767738)
Where in a brief history of time does Hawking's criticise the big bang theory?


Never said it did!!

Chris 03-04-2009 09:00
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767738)
Where in a brief history of time does Hawking's criticise the big bang theory?
Lucy doesn't say that Hawking criticises it. She says that some scientists do, and refers us to Hawking's book for further information on that point.

Let's face it, the Big Bang is the creation myth of Hawking's religion, he's not about to start dissing it ... ;)

downquark1 03-04-2009 09:03
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767745)
Lucy doesn't say that Hawking criticises it. She says that some scientists do, and refers us to Hawking's book for further information on that point.
Why would you recommend a book to learn about a flaw in something if the book does not reveal its flaws.

And I am aware that Lucy post is so full of clitche that I did look up previous posts to check if it was sarcasm.

Chris 03-04-2009 09:05
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767748)
Why would you recommend a book to learn about a flaw in something if the book does not reveal its flaws.
I didn't. She did.

lucy7 03-04-2009 09:07
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767745)
Lucy doesn't say that Hawking criticises it. She says that some scientists do, and refers us to Hawking's book for further information on that point.

Let's face it, the Big Bang is the creation myth of Hawking's religion, he's not about to start dissing it ... ;)

You put the words in to my mouth Chris, it must of been while you were kissing me!!:)

downquark1 03-04-2009 09:08
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767752)
I didn't. She did.
Well I would appreciate if she answered.

lucy7 03-04-2009 09:10
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767748)
Why would you recommend a book to learn about a flaw in something if the book does not reveal its flaws.

And I am aware that Lucy post is so full of clitche that I did look up previous posts to check if it was sarcasm.


Sarcastic.....me?
Never!

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767755)
Well I would appreciate if she answered.


Do not bait me man.
What answer are you wanting from me, the book makes good reading, that was what I was stating.

By the way, I do not hang out on my lap top all day looking at responses to threads!!!

downquark1 03-04-2009 09:12
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucy7 (Post 34767757)
Do not bait me man.
What answer are you wanting from me, the book makes good reading, that was what I was stating.

By the way, I do not hang out on my lap top all day looking at responses to threads!!!
I want a source for this statement

Quote:
Even scientists are now going against the big bang therory.
I may learn something by reading it.

Maggy 03-04-2009 09:15
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767664)
I prefer the "Let there be noise" theory. it's more convincing :)
I thought that in space no one can hear you scream..or explode?:D

Is it possible to have noise if there is nothing there to begin with and there won't be until after the big bang?:scratch:

Thinking like this can only make my headache worse...:)

Hugh 03-04-2009 09:20
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767669)
It might have been quiet from down here, but you would have heard it up there.
a) There is no sound in space, as there is no medium for sound to travel through
b) There wasn't a "down here", as up there was just being created.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 34767669)
I don't know if he was even around at the event. but surely something colossal as the earth being created it would mean that anything outside/within/around it wouldn't survive?
The universe came into being 13 billion years ago (approx), whilst our Solar System formed approx 5 billion years ago - two different events.

And you appear to be confusing physics with metaphysics.

---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767762)
I want a source for this statement

I may learn something by reading it.
Not a book, but a link

And this

"Big Bang Theory - The Only Plausible Theory?
Is the standard Big Bang theory the only model consistent with these evidences? No, it's just the most popular one. Internationally renown Astrophysicist George F. R. Ellis explains: "People need to be aware that there is a range of models that could explain the observations….For instance, I can construct you a spherically symmetrical universe with Earth at its center, and you cannot disprove it based on observations….You can only exclude it on philosophical grounds. In my view there is absolutely nothing wrong in that. What I want to bring into the open is the fact that we are using philosophical criteria in choosing our models. A lot of cosmology tries to hide that."4

In 2003, Physicist Robert Gentry proposed an attractive alternative to the standard theory, an alternative which also accounts for the evidences listed above.5 Dr. Gentry claims that the standard Big Bang model is founded upon a faulty paradigm (the Friedmann-lemaitre expanding-spacetime paradigm) which he claims is inconsistent with the empirical data. He chooses instead to base his model on Einstein's static-spacetime paradigm which he claims is the "genuine cosmic Rosetta." Gentry has published several papers outlining what he considers to be serious flaws in the standard Big Bang model.6 Other high-profile dissenters include Nobel laureate Dr. Hannes Alfvén, Professor Geoffrey Burbidge, Dr. Halton Arp, and the renowned British astronomer Sir Fred Hoyle, who is accredited with first coining the term "the Big Bang" during a BBC radio broadcast in 1950. "

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:02
Re: The existence of God
 
That second website has discovery and " Christian Research " institutes finger prints all over it.

The first website sounds like the typical whining when someone is denied funding. I really don't get this idea that scientists resent new ideas. New ideas when proven correct make a scientist rich and famous, it also opens up new areas of avenue to get your name into the books, you can work out a constant or an equation and get your name stuck on it, old ideas tend to be already saturated.

This is not to say that the big bang theory is definitely correct. But merely there is a lacking of alternatives at the moment.

Hugh 03-04-2009 10:08
Re: The existence of God
 
Second site, fair enough - didn't see the links at the bottom (although surely we shouldn't deny potential validity just because there are religious links?).

First site, it would appear (imho) that you are "smearing", rather than addressing the original point that there were other points of view which disagreed with "Big Bang".

Chris 03-04-2009 10:13
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by foreverwar (Post 34767799)
Second site, fair enough - didn't see the links at the bottom (although surely we shouldn't deny potential validity just because there are religious links?).

First site, it would appear (imho) that you are "smearing", rather than addressing the original point that there were other points of view which disagreed with "Big Bang".
Actually he's smearing both sites by questioning their motives rather than addressing the substantive issues raised. You just seem more willing to let him get away with smearing the ones who happen to be Christians. ;)

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:18
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767801)
Actually he's smearing both sites by questioning their motives rather than addressing the substantive issues raised. You just seem more willing to let him get away with smearing the ones who happen to be Christians. ;)
Which issues are of substance? I see some philosophical spinning and an accusation of political bias.

The first is no secret just not often discussed and the second is inherently immoral but no evidence has been put forward it's true.

The big bang is an incomplete theory and has some fudging in the mechanics. However the evidence that something of it's like happened has not been refuted.

Chris 03-04-2009 10:20
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by downquark1 (Post 34767806)
The big bang is an incomplete theory and has some fudging in the mechanics. However the evidence that something of it's like happened has not been refuted.
Neither site tried to refute the evidence. They simply pointed out that the same evidence could be used to construct a different theory.

downquark1 03-04-2009 10:21
Re: The existence of God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 34767810)
Neither site tried to refute the evidence. They simply pointed out that the same evidence could be used to construct a different theory.
Yes of course, you can construct a theory to fit anything. This is an issue for physicists, I'm failing to see how god comes into it.

Chris 03-04-2009 10:23
Re: The existence of God
 
You make me smile sometimes. :)


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