Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I'm curious - in what circumstances would you not know who was driving your car (besides it being stolen)? (slightly off-topic, sorry, but I am curious).

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

How would they prove it was not them that downloaded it then? If the offence did actualy take place how will they defend themselves.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

In what context can you quote the Road Traffic act, as it would be a Civil proceedings with the onus on you to prove to the Judge it was not you while he is looking at documentary evidence that says on such a date a music track or film was downloaded from your connection.

He reads document that says it was downloaded by your connection, you say no it was not me but I pay the bill, he says thank you I find for the plaintiff.

But of course we do want it to get that far so we send a letter denying it as soon as we get the letter demanding money.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Try not to worry Melidon. If you didn't download the game, you have nothing to fear. They are just trying to scare you into paying, and unfortunately it's a common tactic.

The only people who can tell you that you have to pay are judges in a court of law. Until then, it is merely a claim and not in any way legally binding, and it won't affect your credit rating or anything like that.

Write them a letter explaining that they are mistaken. Request any evidence that they have. That will probably be the end of the matter, but if they do respond please let us know. Generally they are only looking for people who either just pay up out of fear or who don't respond at all so they can get a default judgement. If you write back, they will usually just leave you alone.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

This is just going round in circles, and drifting off topic, but to answer the questions:
1/ Kymmy: So you would have to prove someone (an actual person) stole your electric, but Davenport Lyons don't have to prove that you (the account holder) stole the game??????????
2/ foreverwar: Shared family vehicle, and nobody knows who was driving at that time. Or shared house, and keys were there for several people to pick up and use the car.
3/ shawty: They don't have to prove it, all they have to do is show that on a balance of probability they, did not physically download it themselves. eg: more than one person uses the PC. They have no knowledge of p2p networks or downloading. They have no trace of the file on their system, and do not play PC games.
4/ whydoIneedatech: Your connection may be guilty of the actual download, but that does not make that account holder guilty of copyrights breach. As I stated several posts back, replying is the first thing to do.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

So will the same happen for child porn? Because the person who owns the account denys it, so the case just gets dropped, even though there is child porn on the PC.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Here is a case found at random with google, and there are 1000's more like it
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/06/18/2213232

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Isnt this what I have been saying. They will go after the account holder first as thats the first contact, but just because they are innocent, the offence has still took place on the computer, so they shouldnt just let it drop. What you just said backs this up as they arrested him for the child porn offences.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I never said Davenport Lyons should just let it drop. What I've said is, they can't make the account holder pay up, if they can't prove who committed the breach. And if the account holder can't tell them who created the breach, they have to drop the case.
Lets just see what happens when and if Davenport Lyons actually take someone to court, who is going to defend their case. They wouldn't be going for default judgements if they thought they could win cases.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hmmm, Ive already tried explaining this. If the account holder of the broadband did not download child porn and can not say who did, the case does not just get dropped.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

This is just drifting so off topic now, it's unreal. I've given advice to people dealing with Davenport Lyons, and it's getting hidden with this rubbish.

From now on, I'm keeping out of it. It's getting out of hand, and where child porn comes in to it, god only knows (other than shock tactics to try and prove a point).

Good luck to all you guys n gals fighting Davenport Lyons, lets hope some of what I said was useful.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Its you who went round in circles ansd then started confusing yourself while proving me right. The whole point of the debate this caused was that they will go after the account holder because thats allt he information they will get from the ISP. Just because the account holder did not download the game, does not mean case dropped as they would still have proof that the game was downloaded onto that computer. The child porn came in to back this up, which you also done nicely with your Shannon Mathews case.

Was in the middle of writing this before noticing what you said Russ. Although my point still stands.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I think we all need to take a step back and read what others are posting...

Yes there I think is a point where a connection can be shared or even hijacked and just because D-L have an IP/DATE/TIME it doesn;t mean to say that the person who holds the accoutn is responsible..

But on the other hand the customer has signed a contract which although with VM puts them plainly in the eyes of civil law as being responsible for the connection from thier side of the modem onwards... That contract will be used in a civil court to accuse the customer the copyright infringment...

So can we please just agree that there is two sides to the arguement and progress forward with what this thread is about and that is the facts that these letters are going out to people and what possibly could be done about them...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Your jumping the gun a bit, the first thing to do is write to them denying responsibility for the down loading and then see if they want to pursue it, this is much like the heifer at KFC thread.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Its not jumping the gun (and why single me out, we have all been talking about it). We were talking about what would happen if it went to court, I dont see how its jumping the gun, but debating what could possibly happen.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Can you request something is brought to a 'proper' court? They seem to be taking advantage of the civil courts needed less proof.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

There's not really much of a difference between the courts, but instead the rules governing Civil and Criminal cases

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

This is getting out of hand now. The amount of misinformation and uninformed legal opinion is not helping anyone. Really, it's pointless to continue until someone who actually received a letter can reply with a statement of fact as to what they did and what happened.

I can state what happened when I received a "warning" letter a few years ago, back when I was on ADSL. It was a mistake, I wasn't sharing the file, so I wrote back and told them. Never heard anything after that, not even an apology. They did make some vague legal threats but didn't actually demand money.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I was digging about earlier, and found the court order they used to get the ISP's to hand over the details. The site I got it from (sorry lost link in power cut) pointed one important thing out about the order. It stated that they had obtained the IP's of people downloading the game to their PC's, and "assumed" this was for the purpose of sharing it, thus creating a POSSIBLE breach of copyrights. In other words, they could prove you downloaded it (not a crime or breach in uk law), but could not prove you also uploaded it, or breached their copyrights. This is why they are now trying it on, to get people to pay up, or get default judgements.
Also note that it is a "prima facie case", in other words a case in which the evidence presented is sufficient for a judgement to be made unless the evidence is contested.

Here is the high court order http://www.digiprotect.org/html/hc_london_300608.html

I think this makes it even more important that people contact them requesting the proof that they downloaded or uploaded the file, or copied it for others;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Another interesting article:

http://torrentfreak.com/ifpi-loses-y...e-case-081007/

The "wifi defence" seems to be working well in Europe, hopefully someone will test it here soon.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Nice find:D Kind of backs up what I've been saying;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Because there are avenues to exhaust before it goes to court which is what Photodude has been saying all along, deal with Davenport Lyons correctly and it won't get anywhere near.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

There's also this, which is worth reading as well.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yep, lots of ways to prove your not in the wrong, and you need to put these to Davenport Lyons.
I never got to court with Microsoft, they backed down long before it got to that stage. It took me about 8 weeks of communicating with their anit-piracy/legal team, and sending them discs to prove they were genuine, before they admitted they had no case.
In the orders used to get the account holders details, the judge makes some statements that point to their being no proof of copyrights breach, just a possibility of it happening. I've marked these in bold below:
Note that the only statement of fact where the judge has said there is a "prima facie" case, is underlined. In "propper inglish";) that means that on seeing their side of the evidence only, there could be a possibility of a copyrights breach. So he ordered the ISP's to release details to Davenport Lyons (as he is bound to do so by the data protection laws, that release data for the purpose legal proceedings), so they could then legally pursue the possible copyrights breach.
What Davenport Lyons then did with all this data, is send out 1000's of letters asking people to admit to a copyrights breach, and pay them a fee. They knew full well that they had no physical proof of who committed the breach, or if a breach had occurred. But by doing it this way, they knew they would get some money out of it.
Those who they guessed wouldn't reply or attend court, were taken forward, and got default judgements against them. They did that to try and create a benchmark ruling for them to refer to. But as many have pointed out, there is no benchmark, because those few cases were not defended.

So, don't throw them in the bin, just send it back denying the claim and requesting proof you have "shared" or "distributed" this game (or what ever). :D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Hi
in regards to Davenport Lyons I posted that I have received letter and from links from here I have contacted Lawdit Who have been very help full and they are helping me with this case, they can not sure what the outcome will be but I have to give it a go.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I got a Letter of Claim from DL.I dont know what to do but i searched internet and i decide to go to lawyer because "paying any sum of money to DL is like to write GUILTY on Your face".They have to prove it.So battle for justice has begun.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If they didn't have evidence from the ISP you wouldn't have the letter....

It's been said a hundred times before unlike a criminal case they don;t have to prove you guilty beyond any doubt, all they have to do is show thier evidence and unless you have evidence to the contrary then they win :(

It's mentioned recently that the unsecured network defence is working great in Europe... I suppose then that even if it doesn;t work here the European court of appeals would be the place to go ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Every case I've read (so far), where people have requested the proof and denied the claim, Davenport Lyons have just stopped asking them for money/writing to them. When they do that, they forfeit the case (should they ever try and take it to court in the future) because they have not shown due process prior to the hearing. In "propper Inglish" that means because they failed to provide you with written documentation, facts or other info you requested, you have no case to defend (and you win):D

Yes but their proof is flawed, as can be seen in the high court ruling used to get the details from the ISP.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Begs the question then if it was flawed then how did it get the ruling for the IP details???

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Sorry, the proof is not flawed until there is a legal challenge to D/L's claims AND is upheld, which as yet has not happened.

It may happen in due course, but to say otherwise is just your personal opinion.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Simple, the ruling was made on legal process. All Davenport Lyons needed to do, was prove that there appeared to be a case of breach (not prove one), and the details were required to follow up the possible breach. Anybody can obtain a release order with only a small amount of evidence showing they need the account holders details to aquire more evidence. If there was actual physical proof of a copyrights breach, the judgement would not state "appearing that there is a prima facie case", "
which may give rise to a claim for Copyright infringement".
As it was not released in order to be contested, they got the court order, in the same way they got default judgements on those who didn't turn up to court.
It's a dirty trick that even the law society are now looking at, as complaints have been made from some people who's details were released.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Most interesting bit for me was this:

"As Logistep provide their data to the court in spreadsheet format, that should also suffice when offering evidence in defense."

In other words your defence can be created with Excel and a laser printer, and it's at least as good as their "evidence".

I am currently trying to find out the IP address used by Davenport's offices so I can send them some demands for money. Rather than wait for them to sue me, I figure I might as well threaten to sue them and watch them end their own legal war :)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Not sure if this is their actual office IPs, but this may be a starting point for you:
davenportlyons.com: 217.29.195.33-217.29.195.33
Also, logistep's:
logistepag.com: 81.169.145.65-81.169.145.67
www.logistepag.de 81.169.145.71-81.169.145.71
[info gathered 27/9/08]

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You could just send them an Email, then check the senders IP when they reply;)
Here is their public list of Email addresses for all the partners in the company:D
http://www.davenportlyons.com/html/a.../partners.html

According to their own news section, it is David Gore you need to contact .
http://www.davenportlyons.com/html/l...le_shares.html

Hope there are no objections to me posting these links to DL's site, as it is publicly available info. If there is, I'm sure the mods will remove them;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

None at all, the info is in the public domain.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

That's great, thanks Russ:D
In that case, check this PDF doc link out of the papers in question:D
http://www.giuristitelematici.it/mod...gistep_doc.pdf

---------- Post added at 09:34 ---------- Previous post was at 08:09 ----------

PS:
I loved the £1 8 , 4 7 3 . 0 0 bill VM/TW sent them for giving details out :p:

And also note that Davenport Lyons admit that the downloader may not be you (on page 3) ;)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

DL have sent me a letter and i am completely innocent of downloading/uploading or sharing the file in question. Although i was probably connected when they say i was.

My work involves monitoring the P2P networks (not for breach of copyright but other worthwhile causes) including Edonkey/Mule and the Torrents.
We have to go to great lengths to successfully bring a case to court and get a successful prosecution/conviction. This is just a brief comparison between how we gather or evidence and how Logistep gather theirs.
We use accredited software and we are fully accredited to operate and gather evidence using it. The software is operated manually, the time is continually synched and every step of the process is recorded from the screen ready to produce in evidence and play back in court (sounds lame but any judge/jury can understand the evidence when it is presented in this way)

Intelligence will give us a “hash” for a certain file that we have an interest in (hash is the unique value that is generated when a file is put on the P2P, this value will never change even if the file is renamed)

We connect to the P2P network with the software and search for the “hash”

Once found we start to download the file

We look in and record the contents of the “shared” folder

We identify a target and drop ALL other connections until we have the target on a “one to one” connection

We download the COMPLETE file from the target over this one to one connection

Now we look up the target IP and, in a timely fashion, (not a year or more) contact the relative ISP and request the targets details. In the case of VM we would also request the “UBR” (Universal Broadband router) as this will eliminate a cloned VM modem which plagues the VM network…ever wondered why you have to keep rebooting your VM modem?? ( IP indicates subscriber is Mr X living in Southend, UBR say subscriber on Tyne and Wear UBR = Possible cloned modem = investigation dropped.

UBR details are not gathered by DL

This is not how Logistep gather their “evidence”. They do not use accredited software. Their software is automated and they do not download the COMPLETE file, in fact they only try to download a few bytes, and this is NOT on a one to one connection. The way they gather their evidence even captures the IP’s of P2P users that don’t even have the file or did Logistep hash and make the original file available renamed as something that we would download?? Before we realized we would have downloaded their “copyrighted material”…..has anyone looked for the file they allegedly downloaded?? Don’t tell me you can no longer find it and I wouldn’t mind betting that it was never available complete….. This just wouldn’t stand up in a UK Criminal Court of Law but will it stand up in a UK Civil Court?? I believe DL now realizes this and this is why they haven’t taken anyone that will contest their evidence to court. They just rely on scaring people into paying them the odd £500 here and there to recoup their loses to the ISP’s that have charged them for releasing subscriber details…well they wont be getting my £500..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Thanks. I already have a handle on their IP addresses, and hopefully a return email will confirm them.

What software is that? You should be able to tell us because if it stands up in court it must be open to scrutiny by the defence.

Interesting method but flawed in one obvious way. The file hash may never change, but the file name might. Thus, someone might innocently download a file called "Cake Recipies.txt" that was originally called "Bomb making instructions.doc" and you would target them based on the hash.

I'm glad I disabled that.

I'm glad Winny / Share / Perfect Dark / Freenet / Tor was invented to prevent that from identifying the source of the file.

There are already versions of eMule / Azureus that do not transmit all parts of a file to a single IP address, so it looks like people are already on to you. Presumably failure to download the whole file = investigation dropped?

Thanks for confirming that valuable bit of self-defence.

Presumably whatever you are looking for is so terrible that concerns about hacked/open wifi connections are not enough to drop the investigation then? That must mean you are working on criminal cases.

Thanks for letting all the terrorists / paedos know that all they need is a cloned modem to deflect any attention.

Presumably anyone up to no good is using Peer Guardian or similar. Do you have some sort of arrangement with them not to block your IP address?

LOL, you are accusing them of renaming the file and tricking you into downloading it, but apparently that danger isn't enough to stop your own investigation.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I was kind of thinking your post was of interest, and then I read the above.

I'm going to assume you've never actually attempted to get this information from Virgin Media, or any other ISP, simply because you can't request the uBR in a court order. You are asking for customer details based on a tracked event which has provided you with an IP address, that is all you can reqeust under the data protection act, which is what a court order actually is in these cases.

You also make an assumption that VM "don't" check for a possible clone using the uBR, that's why you ask for it? So how would you know if that IP on that uBR was a cloned modem, if at all?

I'm not having a go here, but I am uncertain you fully understand what you are talking about.

But thank for the insight into your investigations. :)

davenport lyons update
 

Thought i would set upa new thread,the other thread HAVE YOU RECIEVED A LETTER FROM DAVENPORT LYONS...is getting a bit out of hand.however it was very useul at the time..As im one of the many people who recieved a letter off them,im just woindering how people are getting on with replys from DL, as ive sent 2 letters now and dont seem to be getting anywhere with them,they(DL) just keep throwing the ball back in my own court,have asked them for more evidence of wich they replyed they do not have to give..any help on this issue would be appreciated.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7697898.stm

Which Magazine now seems to be throwing it's weight about.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It's nice to see that the general news articles are now quoting The Pirate Bays action of inserting innocent IP's...

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

TorrentFreak adds a bit more detail, stating that they presumed that the error was because of someone accessing their wifi. If that is the case or if DL just targeted them based on an IP returned from the tracker we will probably never know.

http://torrentfreak.com/magazine-for...e-case-081029/

I just hope the publicity will eventually put a stop to their money making scam.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I found this rather odd:

:confused:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Taken slightly out of context Norm ;)

But the couple in question dont have a wireless network.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

There is no way that will ever stand up. Most people can't even configure their router, which is why ISPs are now sending them out pre-configured. Setting up security is way beyond what most people are capable of.

Within range of my house I can see 15 wifi networks. 3 of them are on WEP and so are easily cracked within minutes, 3 are totally unsecured. The rest are on WPA, but of those 6 are on either Sky or BT using the default WPA keys which are easily discovered. In other words, only 3 of the 15 networks in range of me are secure.

Technology is powerful but also very vulnerable, and it's pretty much impossible for ordinary people to secure themselves. Are you sure your phone can't be hijacked by Bluetooth? Sure your car's electronic key-lock can't be cloned or sniffed? Are your house's door locks bump-proof? Do you even understand those terms?

And, since this is cableforum, even if you don't have wifi you could always point out that your modem could have been cloned and it would be up to DL to show that it wasn't.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

people in glass houses!!

i download as much as the next man so im no innocent but "money making scam" is wrong the internet is in flux and getting out of hand copyright does exsist and people like us on this forum break it, what are the copyright owners supposed to do? i know everybody around here only download linux distros but lets get real put yourself on the other side of the fence the system is clumsy but they are using the tools at there disposal. the copyright owners do need some recompense because if they dont there will be nothing new for us to steal.....sorry i mean download!! :shocked:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

you should all read this, very worrying. Davenport now working with Digiprotect in germany, who are seeding 'pirate' material and then getting money from people who download

http://torrentfreak.com/anti-piracy-...o-porn-081118/

"However, most worrying is the leaked contract between DigiProtect and Evil Angel, as it contains the following paragraph, which one would believe applies to these UK cases too:"

This destroys claims that these actions are for strict anti-piracy purposes, this is a clearly a money-making operation, designed from the ground-up.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I had a look through the PDF linked from the article [all 45 pages of it, & not in huge font either], & whilst the majority of it is porn, there's some more main-stream stuff in there too, like Rainbow Six - Vegas, & Call of Juarez, as well as some TV episodes, music, & a few main stream [not porn] movies.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I received a letter today. saying I made a single mp3 file available to third parties.

I'm going to send them a letter stating that when that alleged download happened many people lived in my place.

Do you think that is enough? I will also write that there is a posibility of hacking my BT wireless hub as there are many other networks around my place of living with many people who can gain acces to my hub. Although is secured by wep key provided by bt and pre-configured by BT which makes it the safest way.

Does it make any sense? I've read a lot about it and I think it might help right? Besides they want to charge me 505 pounds for single mp3 file. Can you imagine?

Any ideas what else I could possibly write to them? I do not want to say that download had happened because honestly I do not think it had or I do not remember.

As I am foreigner. Could someone please write a nice official sample letter. Just want to see how it should look and sound.

thanks

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Don't do that. Just say you did not do it, and would they please present their evidence. It's not up to you to investigate it or make guesses at who it was, just tell them that you personally are innocent.

WEP can be cracked in a few minutes. Your network is totally insecure. Don't mention it though, it's up to them to check these kinds of things.

Ask for evidence to support the amount claimed. I'd be interested to see how they justify that amount for a single MP3.

I'll see if I can post the one I sent tomorrow. I heard nothing more from them after sending it.

BTW, your English seems quite good, I'm sure you could write something.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It might seem good but official letters are more official :)

but while reading your post I understood it might be very simple. Actually few lines saying important things and that's it yes?

I suppose I should not expect any heard from them then?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It's an interesting trick though - almost targeting downloaders by offering something. How do the legalities of entrapment play in to that though?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I would guess that the problem would be proving just who originally uploaded the torrent. I mean they are not gonna admit being implicated are they.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

This country doesn't have any entrapment laws, if you are tempted and get caught you get done

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

True but what about the legal standpoint of agent provocateur?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

All I know about Agent Provocateur is that their underwear costs a blooming fortune!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

But worth it.........:)

Difficult to get in my size, though...........:D

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

ok I wrote that letter saying that someone could have gained an unauthorized access to my network and that there was more than just one computer with internet connection at the time when this alleged thing happened..

I'm gonna send it tomorrow so it would be nice if anyone has any more ideas? I can send my letter if anyone wants to have a look by PM.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It's up to the owner of the network / PC to make sure it's secure, so that excuse won't wash.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

well yeah.. you're right.. but all I can do is just using WEP key given by my ISP and using adsl filter.. if hardware isn't secure enough I can't do anything about it can I?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Another Davenport Lyons story in the Sunday Fail...

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/lifestyl...8057-20935179/

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

exactly the same here.. 505pounds for one song of Scooter. But well.. i'm gonna try to send this letter and see if it helps. If not then I won't have a choice just to pay the ba...... this amount. will give them nice present for christmas :/

i hate christmas !

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If that happened to me, I wouldn't pay a single penny, they can carry me off to prison.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

i don't really wanna go to prison.. but just the same as you.. i'm not gonna pay them a single penny..

especially for one song..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

you would not goto prison. You will end up in county court with a CCJ and if you stlll rrefuse to pay the court bailiffs will be round and take your stuff. Oh btw county court bailiffs can force entry iirc

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

My LandLord has a friend who's a solicitor so I'm gonna talk to him. For now I'm waiting for response from Davenport about what I wrote in my letter.. if they reply

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

My guess is they won't reply, they'll want as many people as possible to pay up with the least amount of trouble.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I wonder. Three billion letters is how many tree's ?

Seriously. Thats a crazy thought right there. :confused:

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

so what happens if they don't reply? You're not saying they just drop the case "like that" are you?

theoretically i still have time till sunday to pay but christ that would be stupid wouldn't it?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Theasix, there's some helpful advice over at the Slyk forums. Specifically two posts, "I've received a letter what should I do?" and "What can we do as a group?".

In brief, if you didn't do it - reply and deny. Don't put too many details in the letter - you're just giving them points to argue over.

They don't need to know you use wireless, they don't need to know how many people use your connection - just that you have never bought or downloaded what they accuse you of making available so you couldn't possibly have distributed it. Express concern but politely tell them they are mistaken and they should go away. It is not a legal requirement to secure your wireless and you are not responsible for people breaking the law with your connection, without your consent. Bear in mind that if it's your name on the letter it is you they are accusing of the offence and you they will (probably not) take to court.

If you did do it, £500 is a lot for a single file. Also, they have no place deciding the damages - the only person who can do this is a judge. Send them a cheque for one copy of the song and tell them you consider the matter closed.

If you are innocent, complain loudly to your MP, the Information commissioner, the SRA and your local newspapers.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

I have heard that those who do pay tend to get another letter regarding some other download, so it appears you just can't win.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

There has been one reported person who paid the £500 for a computer game way back, then got a demand for £1600 for downloading a different game. They had signed an undertaking never to fileshare again, however.

Details about what they do if you offer them less aren't readily available, but they have been quoted by the mail as being "willing to negotiate". I certainly would not sign any undertaking provided by them, but perhaps it would be prudent to agree not to make that particular file available again.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

@penumbra.. yeah I've read it.. but it was after I sent my letter. I'm waiting for response and next time I'll make sure to write more convincing one.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

As it is well known that swarms are 'seeded' with fictitious IP's wouldn't it be impossible to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a particular individual downloaded/uploaded something/anything.

Surely it can only be established that a paid third party reportedly observed said IP in some swarm at some time. Isn't that Hearsay? To me that seems somewhat tenuous particularly as it is likely the third party probably initiated the swarm in the first place for the sole purpose of entrapping people.

Of course, under this present Government, we seem to be heading to the presumed Guilty unless proved Innocent state but we are not quite there yet. So I am of the opinion that denying everything is the way to go.

My sympathies to anyone who has become enmeshed in this affair with the extremely seedy Davenport Lyons and the equally seedy and opportunistic lackeys they employ.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

You're quite right, it can't be proved beyond reasonable doubt. However, because Davenport Lyons have gone down the civil action route, all they require is balance of probabilities. They just have to convince a judge 51%.

It's arguable that an IP alone could do this - with a halfway competent defence (and a well informed judge) I don't think it would stand a chance of reaching the required level. If no defence is filed (as in the case of Ms Barwiniska) then the judge will have no option but to side with DL.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Atari (Test Drive Unlimited and other Davenport Lyons "traps") have sacked Davenport Lyons due presumably to their "ambulance chasing" tactics, and their practce of "baiting" various peer to peer services with their wares in order to procure IP addresses that they can then chase for their £500 pay off.

It would seem that a large and reputable company like Atari, no longer wish to be linked with such practice.

It should be understood, that the Davenport Lyons campaign, though unethical and heavy handed, was, just, legal. Their evidence trail was weak and their source at best questionable and (in my humble opinion) none of it was likely to stand up in court if defended properly......BUT IT WAS LEGAL.

Now we come to an interesting point. Notwithstanding the fact that "offenders" who were scared into paying had to give an undertaking not to partake in further file sharing, in other words declaring themselves guilty. Are the fees they paid to Davenport Lyons recoverable?

I would wonder, under the wonderfully obtuse British legal system, if those payments collected would be returnable as Atari have effectivly withdrawn their case, also, if the payment has been held by the acting solicitor (Davenport Lyons) in a client account (which earns interest) is interest payable on the returned amount? Also, as Atari have withdrawn their case, are those of us who contested the claim entitled to claim back the cost of the time, trouble and effort not to mention stress, involved in so doing?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Link re Atari?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Sorry, should have said.........

Simply Google Davenport Lyons and the press story comes up. Phoning Davenport Lyons gets a grudging admission (if you badger them) that they are no longer acting for Atari.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

It was also all over radio 4 this morning.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Look out guys you're all in for it now ;) :p:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/te...00/7766448.stm

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Yeah! Davenport Lyons have lost one ambulance to chase so they manufacture another one!

Personally, I've billed them £300.00 through the small claims court for forcing me to "defend" myself via correspondance (as per the Civil Proceedings Act) and also for stress & anguish. As they went after me for Atari's "Test Drive Unlimited" which I have a HUGE need for on a Linux based business network!

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

that quote makes me laugh. Helen not here real name so if her name was clare and they posted clare from hull they aint gonna know who they mean unless there is only one clare in hull. Every Helen in hull is now worried lol lol

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If you read the PRON article it does mention LAWDIT in Southhampton who's acting on behalf of a lot of clients, could be the first step for those wanting to defend this action..

Also one major point is that anyone who's ever used P2P knows that you get a lot of PRON movies get disguised as genuine downloadable software and get accidently started and partially downloaded before you realise that it's a fake...

I wonder though how many married men will just pay the damages not wanting thier name on a court case for downloading PRON

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Been busy but I have two very encouraging things to report!

First, I took Davenport Lyons to Small Claims Court and WON! They didn't send anyone, only some letters to the court. I won £250 from them for wasted time leading to lost earnings (charged at my hourly rate of £45+VAT), letters, stamps, envelopes, phone calls and interest. It even includes the hour I spent in court and petrol costs to drive there and back, plus parking. Oh, and £30 court costs as well.

My argument was simple: they had no intention of ever taking me to court, as evidenced by the fact that they backed down very quickly once I started asking for more details. As such they caused me financial loss (having to waste time checking computers and networks used for business, writing letters etc), which I have now recovered.

They have not paid up yet, but if I don't get a cheque come January I will be contacting a debt recovery agency. Part of me hopes they don't pay, just so the bailiffs get sent in :)

The other positive development is that it looks like there is a good case to be made with the Information Commissioner, as pointed out in this article:

http://torrentfreak.com/accused-of-i...rnment-081205/

Basically, the European Directive on personal data is to be interpreted as not requiring it's disclosure for purely civil matters, such as copyright infringement. As such, VM should not disclose the information, and the court was wrong to order it to be disclosed. Furthermore, it seems that Davenport Lyons must also not retain that data. I have already written to all involved parties to ask for clarification, and in DL's case to delete all data regarding myself which is stored electronically.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Please keep us informed as to the replies you get...:)

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

cook1984 - That is very good news (& also amusing, re. Small Claims :D ). I've just had a read through of that TF article, & the earlier one it links to about the ECJ case - very interesting. Nice template letter for the ICO too.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

My last day to pay is tomorrow. Of course not gonna give them a penny.. What should I do if they didn't response to my letter ? Should I send another one or wait till they just send me a court thing.. ?

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Their "deadlines" are totally artificial and have no legal standing, so don't worry about it.

Chances are if you wrote to them they will just give up. All you can really do it keep writing back, and maybe try Small Claims Court if you think you can make a case for financial loss.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

cook1984, have you thought of maybe contacting The Register or someone about your Small Claims victory? Could make an interesting little story, following on from previous DL articles they've run.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

cook1984 I don't really care if I can get some money back of them. Of course if they take me to court I'm gonna go there and fight. I'm just waiting for another letter and I have a good solicitor waiting for it too. So I'm a little prepared. Besides I've read a lot of it on the net and that gave me some more infos.

But You're right. I should keep writing to them and I will. I'll wait few more days and if they don't reply I wirte another one..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

If you are worried about games cases they are pursuing, look back in the thread! On 4th Dec this year, Atari sacked them. There is now no case to answer.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Unfortunately not dipper, I fear that they will have other less well known clients to pursue claims on behalf of

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Only other client known of to date is a porn distribution outfit. In the last 2 years it's been Atari only for games.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

my alleged download was a scooter song which copyrights also belong to DigiProtect.. so it's not only pron ..

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

There was also that pinball game they went after people for, & that wasn't an Atari game.

Yep, although they are "protecting" a whole bucket load of porn, there's also a lot of other stuff (but yeah it is mainly porn it seems).

I think there was a link earlier in the thread to the list of German stuff.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Being discussed on BBC 1's Watchdog programme right now.

Re: Have you received a letter from Davenport Lyons?
 

Lived paused Watchdog to sort the kitchen out - watching now!