Re: All F1 2005 Discussions
 

I strongly suspect they did complain, and loudly, at the time to anyone that would listen. But since everyone is blaming everyone, noone is going to willingly stump up the cash. Court action was inevitable.

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Well the verdict of the totally un-biased hearing is in
Guilty

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good old max...and to think he was considering resighning a few years ago, what does everyone think will happen???

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hi and :welcome: to the site , i reckon they will get a fine and that will be the end of it :erm:

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yeah the FIA have said the penalty has been delayed so the teams look into paying a fine back to the fans.. once that has been done the FIA will review it and just give another small fine

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This is pathetic, they dont race because of a safety issue and face a fine?

If they had have raced and killed a fan for example what would the implications of that had been?

This will surely cause a revolt / shake up, and about bloody time too! Get the fat cats out of this sport and get some one in to run it who is not just in it for the money.

my :2cents:

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Can't really argue with you Tuftus. The FIA are guilty of being unsportsmanlike....and me in my court finds them guilty.

The penalty is Max and Bernie have to wear pit babes' outfits and sweep the tracks on their hands and knees with a toothbrush after the next race - while Jim Rosenthall spanks their semi-naked behinds with strips of Michelin tyres. Oh dear, it's all starting again....DOCTOR!

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Frankly I think this is the beginning of the end for F1 in its current state.

It has become too unwieldy, there is too much politics and too much money and too many people trying to pull it in different directions.

It needs a complete overhaul otherwise it will fall apart as teams consider defecting to the "A1 racing" series.

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not sure if anyone has heard this yet..

The only tyre warmers you are allowed blankets with restistive heaters according to the FIA rules

Ferrari have developed a new system whereby the tyre blankets are now housed inside a box with restistive heaters.. this box heates up the tyres plus the wheel rim and is effectively a tyre oven, which is banned.. this new system has led to Ferrari being more competitive as they can now get heat into their tyres and qualify at the front of the grid

Now the FIA are always going on about cost cutting etc so when they saw this whether it was legal or not they knew if they allowed each every team will then have to develope these as well, therefore increasing costs.. what they could have done is said yes it is legel but we will ban it to save costs and you can use your old tyre blankets, this has been done in the past

Instead the FIA ( Ferrari International Aid ) allowed this system and all the other teams will now have to do the same

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I wish the teams (all pretty much agreed apart from Ferrari of course) would just get on with their new formula, and stop talking about it. This will put an end to the silliness that prevails in F1 today.

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I dont think that a new formula is the answer, and no matter how much you may dislike them ferrari are an integral part of motor racing!
The key is to get some new blood with some new idea's and get rid of the concord agreement, this is where the problem lies!:(

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the only real problem with the concorde agreement is that if any changes are made to the rules all the teams have to agree on this which they can't do.. just look at the US GP all the teams APART from Ferrari said they wouldn't race but when it started Jordan made a u-turn and then Minardi had to do the same..

i agree more teams need to be in it, maybe by using customer chassis \ engines then it could be more exciting rather than the closed shop you have now

the thing is each of us on this thread would have different views on how the actual rules of F1, car design, refueling etc should be done.. there is no right or wrong way forward

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to quote dodgeball....'youve got to grab it by the horns and hump it into submission....thats the only way'


seriosuly though, the sport worked well when it was a dictatorship, and when you did not ahve to have every team agreeing to every change, by the nature of competition the teams will never agree!!!
why should one team disadvantgae itself to help its rivals??? it makes no sense at all!

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agree it need a dictator but someone with better ideas than Max and his "game of chess" strategy F1 with refueling

this is why the GPWC rival series won't work.. imagine if at the first race Renault are 5 seconds ahead of every other car.. the car makers who will own this series won't be able to agree to change the rules as Renault will vote against anything to eat into their 5 second advantage

Personally to cut costs and increase the spectactly of F1 i'd make the teams use the same car and aero profile for each race.. compare a Monaca F1 car with a Monza one and you will see all the extra bits they put on.. no longer to drivers have to work around a cars strengths and weaknesses for each race they setup the car to near perfection all the time

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I think the system of no tyre changes is good in the race as it spices things up, an equal distribution of TV revenue would not go ammis, as well as a spending cap on development for each one of the teams (so as they would not disrupt employees) with each teams finances having to be submitted by the FIA (prefferablly without MM) this would give the small teams a chance
points for qualifying like Btcc!
slick tyres
no cap on engine size!
more circuits (this includes getting rid of ones like hungary that no-one likes)
no traction controll of launch controll
no exotic materials

er and make paul stoddart president of FIA :D

what does everyone else think?

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Could you say why you don't think it's the answer? I don't mean to sound rude (no really I don't!) but it's quite hard to discuss an idea if we only say I think "x" and you say no "x" is no good!

I think a new formula will be the answer - F1 is in decline, this year's rules have added drama to the event, but then when a catastrophe like Indy happens the FIA show true colours and blame everyone else, instead of doing their job and being the catalyst for a compromise (plenty of which were offered to the FIA and declined).

Something needs injecting quickly to stop the rot. Personally i think this is best served by a new formula, bypassing the FIA altogether. It's all gone too far now for the FIA to recover (without on-screen ritual beatings of Max) and an unceronomious public dumping of F1 will generate huge and positive publicity for the new formula - problems sorted (for the time being at least).

BTW, it's not a question of my not liking Ferrai - I think they're superb. It's just that they behave as it is their personal Formula, and I think that they and the FIA both behave in most a unsportsmanlike manner.

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Actually I think the American Indy/ Champ car series has the right idea, you can only have *five* mechanics work on the car in the pit box, instead of the 20+ that F1 generates!

Both of those I would certainly agree with.

I'm not so sure about these. The reason for the grooved tyres and restricted engine size regulation is actually (or, at least supposed to be) to slow cars down for sheer safety reasons.

I agree with no traction control and reducing all the electronic gizmos, it's supposed to be about the *driver*, not the computers, however the development of "exotic materials" has a "trickle down" effect that benefits society as a whole.

Well he can't be a bigger pillock than Max Mosely...!

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see my post above the car makers can't agree on anything and if they run a series it will be a disaster.. imagine if at the first race BMW are 5 seconds slower than the rest and they face the prospect of finishing every race last.. they will call for a change in the rules to even this up but all the other teams won't go for it..

i guess we all have our ideas on what we would like F1 to be here's my idea

ban refeuling so races are won my the fastest car not the best strategy
return to slick tyres with wider rear tyres, tyre companies should be tyres that can last 70% of race before being changed
ban all the sensors on the car, without these the electronics can't sense what is going on and react to it. Also has several knock on effects. Most of the testing is done to get data from these sensors. If they aren't there the purpose of testing is reduce. After each session at a GP you can't see the drivers because they are always reviewing this data
Cars to use the same aero profile for each race. i.e no sticking on of extra parts for high downforce tracks.. force the drivers to adapt to each circuit
aero changes to the cars allowed at only 3 points of the season,, if they can't change each race there will be less need to test
ban tyre warmers
each day of the GP weekend to include a 1 hour signing session with fans, also teams should run free open days for the F1 fans once a year either at end or start of season
qualifying to return to 1 hour session with unlimited laps
V8, V10 or V12 engines with differing tank sizes
teams allowed to sell parts to other teams i.e customer chassis to encourage more teams to enter
wind tunnel time to be equal to that which the team with the smallest budget can afford
accounts to be submitted to the FIA, FIA to be able to introduce a budget cap either overall or in certain areas e.g testing, wind tunnel etc
rule book to be more open to allow for different looking cars
car developments to be submitted to FIA before development, teams shouldn't waste money designing and testing parts that then get banned because another top team doesn't have it
sequential gear box used via a convential geat stick
ban on fly bay wire throttles, if it isn't an electronic signal then it can't be changed
ban on electronics, see sensors rule above

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And make Michael Shoemaker to tow a caravan perhaps?

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No, different teams on different strategies makes the race interesting

Grooved tyres were introduced to slow the cars down, if the go back to slicks they will have to slow them down some other way.

IMO there should only be one tyre supplier.

All driving aids should be removed, but I don't see the point in removing all telemetry.

I don't see the point in that
Great idea if you 1st corner smashes every race.

All teams could use a bit more PR
I thought the 12 lap system was adequate

any engine configuration should be allowable as long as the capacity is the same.

Tank sizes should be the same.

But then you may get smaller teams bowing to the larger teams eg Sauber - Ferrari

I agree there should be a limit on testing in wind tunnels

There should be a limit on money spent on development

I don't have problem with paddle shift as long as it is manual and not automatic

Agreed all driving aids should be banned

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well we all going to have our own idea

the thing i hate about refueling is listen to the interviews from the drivers since it's been introduce.. they all say " you can't pass i decided to wait for the stops" i want to see racing on the track and by having no refueling it is forcing the drivers to overtake.. also a race should be won by the best driver not because a simulation worked out a quicker strategy than someone else. cars racing each other would be more interesting and is easier for the casual viewer of f1

my idea on banning the telemetry is that it should play into the hands of the better drivers instead of having a computer say what is happening the driver should do it. a better driver will get more out of the car rather than having to look at the data and talk to engineers, also means less testing as they can't get the data back, and also the sensors can't be used to run driver aids

with less data to go through at a GP weekend the drivers could then use that spare time to SHOCK HORROR :Yikes: :Yikes: :Yikes: :Yikes: meet the fans

my idea on selling parts was to get more teams in.. more teams = better racing mabe there could be a 2 tier budget championship.. if you below a certain amount you can buy parts \ chassis and if you are above x then you can build your own

my using a normal gear stick it goes back to the driver having to do more work and maybe makea mistake rather than holding the wheel all the time

banning of tyre warmers will put more skill on the drivers having to cope with code tyres.. Champ Car and IRL work ok without first corner crashes

i'll let someone else worry about the safety!!

as i've said before it's a shame Gp2 isn't used to try out some of these ideas or even the F1 rules for 08 the FIA want where it isn't in the public eye so much instead of forcing that to be like F1

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Its a good game, this - my ideas would be as follows

allow full ground effects aerodynamics, but reduce the size of the front & rear wings - the idea being to maintain downforce, but with less turbulence off the wings. Hopefully this would make slipstreaming & overtaking easier.

Remove all driver aids like traction control.

Have fully manual sequential gearboxes.

Have steel brakes, not carbon or ceramic - the idea being to increase the braking distances, leading to more overtaking into the corners.

Everyone use the same tyres.

Apart from the weight, the fuel & the engines, that is almost the same spec as a Champ car, which i find much more exiting to watch (on street circuits, anyway).

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yep have to say that list above is good.. if only the FIA looked at this thread :D

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Can't say I agree with this one, the tactical decisions on two stops, three stops etc can make a boring race interesting.

As I pointed out above, the grooved tyres were introduced in an attempt to slow cars down (ok, it didn't exactly work, but it stopped them going faster sooner!). I do think the tyres should have greater longevity.

Sorry, but all this will mean is that teams have to spend *more* money on physical testing which will disadvantage the smaller teams.

Or they're shmoozing with the Corporate Sponsors.

I think the aero/ downforce rules need modifying because the "dirty air" cars leave behind them stops other cars slipstreaming so much and thus helping them pass when they get a "tow" along a straight, but downforce is also there for safety.

Again I think this will mean *more* testing as they try to find an optimal layout that will cover eg the next four races.

No, this is not a good idea without a fundamental redesign of cars. It was tyres cooling off (and thus changing the amount of grip) which was the cause of Ayrton Senna's death.

Not unlimited, but I think the 12 lap system worked quite well, although I'd make the *fastest* teams go out first!

A nice idea, but the rich teams would then shift to eg expensive computer modelling techniques that the small teams couldn't afford.

That I can agree with.

But this will, again, just advantage the rich teams who can spend more money/ time on experimenting with different set-ups even with a budget cap.

How does that square with the previous point of the rulebook being more open, though?

I don't agree with these one and frankly I think this sort of thing should be introduced into more ordinary road cars, eg it's really not necessary to have a manual gear shift on the floor any more.
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But that's not the fault of refuelling, that's the fault of the tracks. IMO we need to ditch or fundamentally redesign many of the old tracks (and especially get rid of Monaco which is a joke) and introduce more like Bahrain and Shanghai with multiple passing places.
__________________

The problem with ground effect was that it would literally clamp the car to the track. It meant you could corner like you were on rails, but also reduced manoeuvrability at the same time.

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One of the problems with F1 is that races become processions with mechanical failure being one of the main thing that alters the finishing order. With the fastest cars from qualifying being at the front and overtaking being nigh on impossible a lot of races lose the sparkle that once existed. You get the situation where a couple of cars go speeding off into the distance with a slower car in third place which is having a problem holding up a train of cars which could go much faster if only they could get past. This often results in the only racing worth watching being amongst the lower placed cars, the winner being obvious after a couple of laps as long as everythings holds together.

Something should be done to encourage more overtaking and make it easier and to give the slower teams a chance.

Perhaps a speed limiter on the cars together with a "push to pass" system such as Champ cars have. This would prevent potentially faster cars from pulling away on the straights from the slower cars who could use the "push to pass" to give them the extra grunt meaning a Minardi using "push to pass" could pass a Ferrari not using it. Something along the lines of cars being restricted to x mph with "push to pass" allowing them to achieve x+y mph when used with say 30 seconds of "push to pass" being available during the race. The push to pass time could be varied from race to race in a handicap system where the slower cars had more seconds available than the faster ones.

You could have a really big shake up of the points sytem with points being gained in qualifying and for fastest lap as well as the race finishing order. I would love to see a race where 20 points were awarded for fastest qualifying going down to 1 point for slowest with cars starting the race in reverse grid order to qualifying. The fastest qualifier would then get 20 qualifyng points and would have to pass every other car to get the 20 race win points.

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I don't wish to over-simplify issues here, but we need less rules, not more.

All these ideas are very creative and I salute you all for coming up with them.

But this is the premier league of motorsports - talk of handicaps of drivers, inhibiting technical developments and the introductions of even more rules are not necessary or desirable. You wouldn't start Arsenal off with a minus point score becuase they won the leage last season, or chop of Henry's left leg becuase he can run faster.

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its not a bad idea, but then you would have some teams using it all the time, or one team developing a system that has it on preminantly
and anyway sometimes the racing at the back is realy good!
The problem is quite clear the morew you look at it, the team with the most moeny will eventually win! toyota keep plowing money in, and are climbing the tables, ferrari...say no morew.....mclaren say no more and as for renault!
equal distribution of revenue and parading max before the start of each race is the only answer :D, or alternativly.....cover him in bbq sauce and feed him to the americans..... ill leave you all to think about that one

and yes, more public interaction would be a great idea....what about a lucky ticket holder at every race being able to hand over the winners trophy, or wave the chequered flag or something along those lines

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thinking back, that was certainly the case when the cars were running side skirts to maximise the effect, but regulating the ground clearance 'should' mean a compromise could be reached.

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There are a lot more variables in football than F1. I think that we all agree that as things stand races are more of a procession than a race. Something has to be done to alter this. Other motor racing has handicapping, push to pass, etc and these things have been introduced for a purpose. Why not have F1 introduce something to spice up the race experience?
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If its the push to pass system that you are talking about then it is a time controlled boost that you can activate to give you chance to overtake or resist being overtaken. You have only so many seconds per race where you can use it which is preset by the race organisers and cannot be altered or extended.

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and as for feeding max to the americans?

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personally i think skirts should never ever be brought back , ok they work very well , but ............. , all you need to do is to catch a bump mid corner or maybe get nudged and most of the downforce goes , period , very dangerous in my opinion :angel:

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eh? its not controlled by the race organisers at all. The push to pass, or overtake button. Temporarly raises the rev limiter, and uses a more aggresive engine mapping. The only reason there is a limited amount of it is because it puts a high strain on the engine and is not sustainable. The engine engineers know how much (or so they reckon) how much it can safely take before going bang.

Personally i think they should scrap the one engine should last x many races and such. BUT impose a limit on how many NEW engines can be used per season.
At present practice sessions are abit of a joke since they do so little running in them because engine milage is limited.

In terms of fan appeal going to friday / saturday at silverstone used to be appealing to me because you got to see alot of running for not alot of money. (20 cars * 12 laps for qually, + 20 or so more laps per car in the morning on sat) It was allways more interesting in qualy to see more than one car out on track going for it at the same time and there was allways the risk of being borked by a slow car.

To me circuit entrance on a sunday is just ludicrus. I have only ever gone when i've managed to get some freebies of f1 teams £100 odd quid a head is just silly. I'd much rather pay a tenner and goto a 750motor club event. The racing is closer the paddock is open and you can get alot closer. The main bit being its cheap!
Fridays / saturdays used to be about £20/ head with sunday being £80 odd

I thought it was funny when they interviewed some of those at indy saying it was a waste of $80 or so (£50 BARGAIN compared to silverstone)

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The time that push to pass is operable in Champ cars is set at 60 seconds per race and the time available WAS set by the organisers. Read a little about it at http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/sport/3673.asp

This was fairly easy to introduce in Champ cars as they all use identical Ford Cosworth engines. F1 cars could be fitted with electronic speed limiters to slow them down with a similar push to pass system which could remove the limitation for a set number of seconds per race.

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I don't mean to sound rude, but if you need a button to make your sport more interesting, might I suggest that you are watching the wrong sport? I don't have a problem with what you're suggesting, but on the Scaletrix track, not the F1 track. :)

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for all those that say refueling makes the race interesting i'll try and explain why the races would be better without it

think back to the 77 French GP at Dijon. I'm sure you all remember the battle for second between Villeneuve and Arnuux. That battle is still talked about today.. imagine if instead second place had been decided by strategy and refueling and neither driver had overtaken the other one would that still have been talked about now ?

think back to Hakkinen's pass on Schuey at Spa the other year as they passed Zonta on either side going up to Les Combes.. would that still be talked about if they had passed in the pits under refueling ?

go back to the Sam Marino GP this year.. Schuey had a car that was 2 seconds a lap faster but it was safer to stay in 13th rather than overtake on the track.. imagine if there was no refueling and he had to fight his way past on the track.. that would have got people talking.. how many people have said wow what a strategy by Ferrari that day..

go back to the race yesterday and Schuey's pass on Trulli.. you might not remember it so i'll recap the move for you.. Schuey went quicker than Trulli when his car wasn't there so after they had both stopped he was first.. amazing and i'm sure you've been talking about it for all of 0 seconds.. how many people have said wow what strategy to pass Trulli at the stops.. people won't even remember it by Tuesday..

more importantly the casual viewer wants to see overtaking rather than cars passing the pits.. we have been starved of this over the past few years and so everyone says refueling is great but if it wasn't there the action would have to take place on the track and proper overtaking is better than going quicker than the car you are racing during a fuel stop

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I have to agree that with the need to change tyres, why do cars have to refuel. Make them stay out for the whole race.

However until something can be done that allows effective overtaking - many cars loosing aerodynamic grip when they get close to cars in front - and make perferomance of cars more evenly matched, F1 will always be a procession. It's why "lesser" race series such as Touring Cars, is a much more interesting spectator sport. Just a shame that F1 gets the lions share of the publicity and money in the UK.

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yes refueling and no tyre changes was always a strange choice from the FIA.. also it has led to some of the problems this year as the cars "sprint" between the stops for refueling instead of having to stay out the whole race and go abit slower and judge their pace over the whole race better

the FIA introduced refueling in a bid to fool the fans into thinking there was overtaking, or at least changes of positions, during a race but it's never worked for me.. yes it can make races interesting but overtaking is even more interesting and will generate more publicity for the sport

The FIA need to take away from the aero side of F1 so they can follow other cars and overtake instead of trying to fool us into thinking it takes place with refueling.. no one talks about a great strategy after a race but they do talk about overtaking

Think back to 94 and Estoril. Schuey was going to overtake Damon Hill and for a few laps before went onto the part of the curcuit he was going to use to clean it up so when he used it to overtake he had the grip he needed.. if a man with that ability in a car 2 seconds faster decided to "wait for the stops" at Imola something is wrong

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I think that yesterdays race showed one of the problems with F1 that desperately needs sorting. The procession following Trulli meant that there could only be one winner. It is one thing saying fuel cars up for the entire race so that they have to pass on the track but that can be virtually an impossibility on some tracks.

Qualifying needs something doing to it to make it fairer. The one lap system favours the later running cars so maybe have two sessions again but have them back to back to lay some rubber down in their first attempt to make it fairer in the second.

Only having 20 cars competing these days may be part of the problem. I am sure it was better racing when there was 26.

Blue flags can have quite an affect on the race with cars having to get out of the way or be penalised. This can destroy some good racing lower down the field. I bet it would make for better racing without them.

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I would agree with the following.

Bring back tyre changes.
Stop refuelling.
Points for qualifying 1st, winner of qualifying starts at back so reverse order.
Replace tracks where overtaking is impossible.

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i think we do need more cars on the grid and yes getting rod of blue flags might be a good idea.. not only do the front running cars not overtake but they don't even have to overtake the back markers anymore

it is possible to overtake on track.. particularly at france into the hairpin but with an artifical means of overtaking i.e in the pits during refueling drivers won't take this risk.. hence the problem

as for qualifying all these rules about changing engines and penalties was meant to spice up the racing but again that is an artificial means.. i'd go back to the one hour session and get rid of the refueling.. also get the FIA to look into the aero \ electronic side

was thinking that if they don't want to change or dumb down F1 why not have a sister series running on the Sunday as well with the F1 stars, more cars but how the fans want to see it. call it F2 or F5000 or something

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When did the refuelling start, I started watching F1 in the days of damon hill and refuellign existed then, I always thought it was essential due to max tank size. I guess the tanks were deliberatly reduced when refuelling was brought in?

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there was a ban on refueling, which was lifted in 1994, I'm not sure when it started

http://www.f1.panasonic.com/en/notes...s_quiz_01.html

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yes they used to have it in the 50s but even then i think some races didn't have it then it was banned in the 60s i think and came back in 94

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Hi.

Did you see the appalling behaviour of Max Mosley and some of the drivers during the one minutes silence before the race today.

Also, not to mention other things like someone starting an engine.

Again, appalling.

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one thing i think should change is the drivers pay packet. The likes of schumacher get paid way to much. It should go back to the true meaning of grand prix (big prize).
Drivers wages should be cap'd by the fia to a sensible amount which the driver can live off (a million would do just fine) then have a large cash reward for winning a race, much smaller one for 2nd, 3rd etc and another for pole.
Say a million for the win, 1/2 mill for second and 1/3mill for 3rd. and say 250k for pole position.

Should provide incentive to win at least. The money should be coughed up by the teams and put into a pool of money and the contribution per team should be based upon there performance (previous year, on current would have to be decided).
Ferrari alone would save ~40 mil+ a year and so would most of the other teams. So there is the funds swirling around.
Win all races in the year and be on pole at every race and the driver would net 25 million + wage. So ~26mil, not to different to how much mr schumacher gets paid!

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yeah i saw that... 60 seconds isn't much to ask for

JV was joking with someone.. Bernie and Max were talking as well

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Not all F1 drivers get a "wage", some of them have to pay to be able to take part.

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Really?

Didn't realise that? Which drivers are paying to compete?

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Some of the lesser drivers dont' necessarily get paid by the team. However the drivers themselves may have their own sponsorship deals which pays the tdriver, and in turn also pays the team.

Not that long ago, one of the bright young Brits was selling shares in himself so that that could pay his wage and allow himself to compete.

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Ah right, I see.

I just took it for granted that the teams payed the drivers and that was it.

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Some of the smaller teams, Minardi is the prime example, don't have the cash to pay drivers. They rely on young drivers willing to race for nothing in order to get them into F1. They often have to bring sponsorship with them in order to get their chance. These are drivers who want to get into F1 but would never be able to do so on ability alone.

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K. Thanks :tu:

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Part of Minardi's problem... a driver who can bring in reasonable sponsorship is worth more to them than a driver who may well be better, but has less sponsorship potential.

It amazes me, how Minardi have outlasted several teams who were without doubt better than them, i nfact, it amazes me how, or even why they carry on ... back in the days when F1 wasn't regulated to death, Minadis often pulled of some early points, as they would typically be running last year's well tried machine against the big name's highly-strung high tech.

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It's interesting to note that nobody's actually said anything about the Silverstone Grand Prix.

But there again, that's because it was frankly pretty damn boring!

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I wish I could say you were wrong, Graham - did you watch the Champ Car race later - much more exiting, even if it was unfair for Paul Tracey - also the moto gp at Laguna Seca was on, as well, awesome racing - the 'formula 1' bubble is burst, isn't it...

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I did actually watch the highlights and you pretty much summed it up with the B word.

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Actually, to me, calling F1 boring, is boring. Sorry to rag on F1 in a pro-F1 thread, but its been boring for so long now I am suprised anyone turns up, including the racers. I lost interest in it years ago.

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just 'cause you wouldn't fit in a car :p:

- you are not wrong, though, Gav - they have regulationed out all the fun :dozey:

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You're absolutely right, it was dull. It did seem that there was a good race going on at the back, but as ITV were host broadcasters, we got to see virtually nothing of that of course!

I would have liked to have seen Kimi's fight to the front for example. People keep saying they want to see more overtaking - well I think we all knew he would be doing plenty of that (becuase he did the same last week too) and we saw absolutely nothing of it.

:td: to ITV

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agreed, there was one point they cut away from a genuine overtaking manoeuvre to a pit stop, then tried to catch up, I can't remember the protagonists, but it was not good :(

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Nope, but I may well keep an eye out for it in the future!

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as i've said before in this thread Alonso's plan for overtaking Montoya was to go quicker than him while he had pitted rather than overtake on the track.. the casual F1 fan finds this confusing as if it had worked then before the stops Montoya was in front and then afterwards Alonso would have been in front.. it didn't work but it's hardly exciting where as Alonso overtaking Montoya into Stoew would have been exciting

the other problem is if you listen to the drivers it's the car wasn't balanced etc and then they can't drive it.. if a car isn't in that 97-100% window it can't be driven quickly and the drivers can no longer drive around problems with cars by taking different lines as the aero side count's too much towards the overall lap time

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I'm in split minds about the FIA making the rules. The Concorde Agreement (as I understand it, and I'm no expert) is based on the participants of the sport. Surely the people in the best position to know how they want to play their game are the participants, no?

I kind of see it like playing Monopoly (and Silverstone's race was about as mind-numbing)....I can play according to the rules printed in the box, but if I actually want to finish playing the game this week, then the players agree to an adaptation to suit them.

But then, on the other hand, the drivers are not necessarily the best people decide what the spectators want to see.

Also, I'm very wary of anything the FIA does. I read an interview with Mosely the other day - he turned up at Silverstone this week, it was the first he'd been to an F1 GP for about six years IIRC.

It's like Sven not turning up to a World Cup final!

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any changes to the rules and the concorde agreement have to be done with the teams and them all agreeing.. which means any change which might give us better racing and more excitment won't get through

each team will just think of themselves.. see Ferrari.. and so they can't all agree on what they should do as they all have their own agenda

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according to the itv website mansell and prost and other stars are racing in germany this weekend.anybody know if its being shown on tv.

here's hoping
andy

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Not really a race http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=33477

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would still like to see it though.

andy

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Digiguide tells me that DTM qualifying from the Norisring is being shown on Motors TV between 4:00 and 6:00pm on Saturday with the actual race on the same channel Sunday 4:20 to 6:10pm. I preume that the stars shoot out will be during that Saturday afternoon slot. It will also feature Emerson Fittipaldi, Jody Scheckter and Mick Doohan.
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Unfortunately for cable viewers I think that Motors TV is only available on satellite and Wight cable. One of the reasons I have Sky+.

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What do you think about the different qualifying methods being voted for at http://www.formula1.com/news/3312.html ? Not sure which I prefer but either look better than the existing qualifying format.

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I would rather they brought in changes to allow the cars to run closer together & actually overtake each other, then the qualifying wouldn't be so crucial.

I prefer the 'old' 12 laps qualifying, myself, the only thing wrong with that was when the teams waited 30 minutes to go out.

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Hear hear! IMO one of the only reasons that they changed qualifying was to shake things up at the start of the race, rather than it being a procession from the word "go".

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Qualifying always aims at putting the fastest competitor at the front of the grid going down to the slowest at the back. This can only lead to processions forming. Unless the weather intervenes during qualifying or a driver is penalised for an engine change there is little chance of the faster cars which may stand a chance of overtaking being towards the back of the field.

A change in aerodynamics seems to be the only real answer so that cars can get close to the one in front and then benefit from the slipstream.

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Hmmm...this isn't a bad idea at all. I would be curious to see how it actually panned out in the course of a race, but I like the concept that the best players are handicapped like in golf.

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I believe this is done in various types of sports car races that are run over two legs, the cars start the second leg in reverse finishing order.

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it's official:-

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/story_20556.shtml

Barrichello to leave Ferrari and end of this season.

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it is a shame that the activity off the track, is more exiting, than that on ;)

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It's officially the biggest *non-surprise* in F1!

I'm just amazed that he's stuck it out for this long.
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Regrettably very true.

What actually happened *on* the track in the last GP? A couple of collisions and dramatic incidents at the start, a few people going off (mainly due to their own fault) and that's about it!

There was practically *no* passing on the track worth mentioning, all the "overtaking" was done with the pit stops.

I think the F1 2005 regulations will go down as some of the worst decisions ever made in the sport! :(

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Hungary is a very difficult track to overtake on...but as always there's quite a bit going on...but further back in the pack - which the director thinks we don't want to see.

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Less than an hour to the start time of the Turkish GP. This could be a rather interesting race in view of the errors made during qualifying. I wonder how many are going to go off when pushing hard?

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Looks like overtaking is easier on this track, it should be a veery good race.

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A better race to watch than most. If only Button hadn't made that mistake in qualifying.

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That track was amazing, well done to the Turkish people in a brilliant track, it they made a race, not like Monaco where the front car is the winner, it's about time Monaco was struck off the F1 calander, that is one boring race.

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until someone smacks a car into the wall and there is a pile up.

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It will make a very interesting race next year now that drivers have got used to the track. They ought to give a few days extra practice time at new tracks so that you don't get all the errors which were made in qualifying.

I am still not sure about the points system which is being used this year as if one driver gets a good lead by the midpoint in the season, like Alonso has, they can just drive for minor places and not be passable. I would prefer that the winner gets 12 points rather than the 10 so that there is a 4 point advantage over 2nd and 6 points over 3rd. A point for fastest race lap could add a bit of extra spice with something being winnable even in the final stages of the race when only a major driver error can upset the result.

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Great track, great race. Did I LOL or what when M Mchumacher span in qualifying!!! :rofl:

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agree about the points.. it was done so that if Schuey won all the races then the champ wouldn't be won so soon as the second driver gets 8... now he not winning all the time it isn't really needed

these team rules are abit stupid as well.. Reanult have to say rubbish to Alonsa like you are faster than Fisi overtake.. we all know he was let through.. it's only when Ferrari do things like Austria and bring the sport into disripute that team orders should be banned

good track but still spoint by having those slow corners at the endof the lap

not looking good for Williams at the moment

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Half way through qualifying at Spa with Webber top so far. Hope it throws it down in around 10 minutes to put the fastest drivers at the back.

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Looks like Button's staying put. :)

Button 'cuts deal to stay at BAR'

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is it confirmed yet?

I heard a £20,000 ,000 figure going around.

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loos like it is until next week when he changes his mind or the middle of next season.. much as i want to see the Brits do well would love it if Williams had a better car then get a big manufacturer for the season after that as well

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Anyone here ever been to the Belgian track?

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fraid not but i think you can do track days there

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New design for cars should mean less downforce and more overtaking due to reduced turbulence.

New design

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not sure about 'crowds back in their droves', but it is definitely a step in the right direction :tu:

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don;t hold you breath until the rules get finalised this is just wishful thinking.. they say this all the team but the rules never get pushed through

a few times this year, Japan for example, we have had races with overtaking which shows it is piossible.. what we need is no fuel or tyre stops then the action will have to take place on the track rather than a car going faster while the one it is racing is in the pits

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Actaully, there has been a tremendous amount of overtaking this year...it's just that we haven't seen very much of it.

I got quite frustrated at several GP's - especially the ones where we saw Kimi starting way back on the grid due to engine problems, and working his way to the front of the pack. He had to overtake at least a dozen times in each race to do this - but we never saw any of it.

Of course rubish directors is only half the problem - but it's the easiest half to cure.

Oh...and whilst I'm ranting...that bloody dog-racing-cam on the pit lane in Japan....stop it...it's wrong and makes me sea-sick!

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Alternatively watch the A1 GP that has more action in a few laps than F1 has in an entire two hour race!

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Also it doesn't have any ads during the race. I'm in two minds if I watch any F1 races next year, I'm so peed of woth thoes ads