What illegal claims have they made?

There are 4000000000000 movies downloaded from the internet (or whatever) - fact - what's illegal about that?

Spiderman was in the internet before it was in the cinema - fact. Anything illegal about that?

Stop making mountains out of molehills. You want to stop something terrible and illegal, give your spare time to the NSPCC, or your local animal rescue centre or something - run a marathon to raise funds for a battered wives shelter.

Or just get a grip and a sense of perspective.....

So as someone else already said, it would be in 'in your book' if they adverted that you can download child porn then. Come on. :rolleyes:

You guys still haven't answered my other comments about what you think should be done

You go OB

Go OB
Go OB
Go OB
GO:D

You can't compare the two, that really is grasping at straws.

CHild porn is disgusting/**** of the earth/sick/ etc etc etc which can destroy peoples lives forever.
Copying a film illegally mean the company doesn't receive the royalties. Whoop-de bloody doo.

Not comparable at all. What was I saying about perspective?...... :rolleyes:

It is not the facts themselves that are illegal. NTL are advertising an internet service and are using these facts as incentives. As the things the facts are describing are illegal, then you could say that NTL are supporting illegal practices or at least using them to gain customers.

This is true, but when Fox, Disney, universal, etc start shedding jobs because of it ...

Talking of "grasping at straws", don't you think by introducing the above that you are more guilty than anyone?

The kind of quote above is always trotted out when someone cannot think of anything else to substantiate their arguement.

btw...how do you know what any of the members do in the rest of their spare time?

OH, OK. And if ntl get a bloody great fine, where do you think they're going to cut costs?

It's a shame I've never seen you so supportive of ntl employees when other members here and .com quite openly say how much they would like the company to go under....

Facts are facts, unchangeable reality.

Using these facts to sell a service, when the facts are an undesirable ? Right or Wrong ?

Do that already.:D

I'll be the first to cry if NTL go under - but - they have done something wrong. They need to be held accountable. Personally, I'd just fire whoever made that advert.

Well, with the hypocrisy of the entire thread in the first place, I wasn't really given much to go on... :rolleyes: It has been 15 pages now, and all the decent stuff got used ages ago - needs must etc....



Forgive my assumption, but I don't think that someone who would tend to the wounds of a pitbull terrier after a bout of illegal fighting would give a crap about the wording of an advert for an internet service. :)

It's unlikely there would be a big fine, just a retraction.

I will defend ANY employee of ANY company if I beleive they are doing their job to the best of their abilities. On NTHell I have defended the CS staff to the hilt, on co.uk I have asked and received assistance from NTL staff and been very grateful for that help, on .com, I can't say much as I don't go there that often.

NTL suffer sometimes unsubstantiated complaints, and I beleive that they still have work to to. I am not in the business of slgging NTL or it's employees off as they provide a good service to me. But sometimes they shoot themselves in the foot.

... and by the way, I like the way you argue, and have the utmost respect for you. You're doing a tough job and exposing yourself to these sites won't make you feel better.

Respect

Not sure if that was a compliment or not.. :confused:
but thanks! :D :wavey:

It was :blush: but don't let it go to your head, NTL were still wrong printing that advert

You two still arguing its wrong, its agreed.

Now what should we do about it:wavey:

Now that's a question, but I'm quite sure that someone will report it to the ASA. Maybe instead of NTL bashing, we should start <wait for it> supporting <there I said it> NTL.

Why do any of us need to report it, if it DOES get reported then NTL will learn their lesson. But what good does it do us ?

Yes they were wrong, but do WE need to do anything about it ?

I never said they weren't ;) But all this fuss :confused: especially when as far as BB goes, we've most of us done illegal downloads ourselves.. :rolleyes:

Do unto those (or something) etc etc - or pot and kettle....

AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D

Indeed, ask yourselves - of benefit would reporting ntl be to you?
Are you really doing it for the good of all bb mankind? Or are you just p1ssed at ntl for other reasons?

See my post above, things need to calm down here. Attacking others does not sit well with me. I'm here because I'm interested and want to help as well as voice my opinion, but it is just that MY opinion.

It would keep the forum numbers down, customers would not moan about not being told the truth by NTL again.

So if they withdraw the advert its better for existing and new customers because the implied meaning is untrue.

Th'eng - you quite openly admitted that you don't care about this advert - you're just gunning for ntl and jumping on the bandwagon cos of the cap... :rolleyes:

So I'm not quite sure as to why you bothered replying to my post. You position was already perfectly clear.

But is it OUR responsibility to fix NTL's errors. The flipside is that the forum members increase ans become a larger voice that the Media and NTL will listen to.

Back to my other point of using the forums to be somewhat constructive in any way that we can.

I admit that there will always be NTHell stories, as there will be with Telewest, BT and many others, but come on, be realistic.

I am worried about the advert because it gives the impression you can download loads of movies and can not because of the cap.

Therefore the advert is incorrect the bonus part is it also suggests downloading pirated films which really takes the biscuit even for NTL

This is agreed, but the cap would be explained on sign up, the advert is there to entice.

never heard the cap explained to anyone its hidden in the AUP

Even so, it's unlikely to be in an advert for the service, just as it's not in adverts for other capped services.

Agree but are they not better telling customers about it,you saw an ad for downloading movies but can not download them because of our AUP.

Its all a big con to get you to subcribe

:)

damn i just read through 10 pages :spin:


same here i cannot believe people want NTL to be accounted for this advert your affectivly killing the company if a huge fine or major action is taken against them :nono:


really well this would quash your theory then

Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean: Curse of the Black Pearl has taken more than $100m (£64.1m ) outside the US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertain...lm/3185391.stm

Hollywood film studios are celebrating a record year at the box office.
Movie-ticket sales for 2001 totalled $8.35 billion (£5.7 billion) by the end of New Year's Eve, up from last year's record of $7.7 billion (£5.2 billion), according to a Los Angeles box office tracker.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertain...lm/1737277.stm

they arent suffering as bad as they make out.......

i dont condone piracy but NTL are clearly stating what is possible with the broadband service they are NOT pointing out how and where to get them just providing a faster net service that is capable of downloading larger files compaired to dial up

personally i think all you guys who want NTL to suffer should leave them because they do NOT need customers like you who have vendetta's gripes with them who are affectivly trying to turn every single screw to get them fined etc

Read what I wrote again!

It is like the driver of the car in the bank robbery - he didn't do the crime of robbing the bank, but he aided and abbetted those who did, and as such is almost as culpable.

one thing your forgetting is if a person was not going to buy something yet they found it for free and took how would a company be losing profits ?

You don't need to tell me about it, I know all about it.

The thing is, both happen on the Internet, and both are wrong. However Ntl need to get a grip of their advertising agency, because they are going to e in real trouble if they don't. Have you looked at the ASA's website???

You do not own the original. You own a pressing of the master disc.

You are NOT allowed (technically) to copy the CD or any other format you might own, to any other format, unless you are in possesion of either written permission from the copyright holder or a dubbing licence from both PPL and MCPS.

Contrary to popular belief, and although it is accepted that it goes on and generally allowed - you have no rights whatsoever to copy anything, irrespective of the reason and irrespective of the ownership of the CD.

In the US it is different, that is how the law stands in the UK. As someone who's job involves regular consulation with both of the bodies, as well as advising my customers on licensing issues, you can take it from me that this is the truth.

That said, it is accepted that this practice goes on - and to be honest no body such as PPL/IFPI would go after someone for making a cassette for the car of a CD you own, and even if they did no court in the land would entertain the case.

But technically, it is ILLEGAL (and they are watching you! one day I might tell you how!!)

Good, lets start with the advertising agency. :dozey:

andygrif it is dodgey ground if you make a backup yes technically your not allowed to but it is accepted and i doubt anyone would care because you do own the original in the retail sense

Can you read?

And you talk about me getting a grip!!!!

This has nothing to do with me being Deputy Hollywood - a one man mission to rid the world of you evil downloaders.

I'm just quoting facts. I couldn't care less what you download. But if I find you I might just report you...bwahahaha:devsmoke:

You know what they say?

You do the crime.......

Logistics


:rolleyes:

I believe BT make you aware on their TV adverts that you will need to redial after 60 min to avoid charges. Companies do let people know, NTL don't.:(

I've trudged through all the posts and my opinion has still not changed since my one and only post on page 1, but I would like to know what the major issue is:

The apparent advertising of an unlimited service.

or

The apparent advertising of illegal d/loads.

Well with that thinking lets abolish the internet because thats how a lot of paedophiles get their stuff.
Ban all ISP's destroy the whole internet and downt even allow online games.

after all the internet is aiding and abbetting the sick paedos isnt it?



Come on man, think real, thats all I ask.

There is no such thing as a victimless crime.

I know someone who never rents or buys videos or DVDs, never goes to the cinema. Yet he downloads his movies from the net.

You're not seriously telling me that he wouldn't buy DVDs or go to the cinema if that option wasn't available to him are you?

Play it the other way. Imagaine everyone has fibre direct internet connections right to their house. You can download moves in 20 minutes. It's still illegal, but begause everyone has such fast connections the new breed of Kazza and Morpheus have evolved.

Now people are downloading 20/30 movies a day, all ripped from single DVDs or pre-release review copies.

There is a 70% reduction in DVD sales and a 50% reduction in cinema attendance.

Do you think there will be as many new movies coming out now, with the huge advances in CGI, immense scenery and sets, major stars?

How will they pay for that, as most of the studios will have gone bust - and that was just becuase no-one was buying classic back-catalogue movies anymore, becuase they were all on the net for free.

We're at the start of something potentially catastrophic for the movie industry as a whole. You can't see it yet, becuase all you see is something for nothin, and hey, everyone likes something for nothing (especially as they've been milking us for years right?)

Well that's great, so a bunch of overpaid yanks end up on the street. We'll be OK right?

Wrong! Cinemas will shut. CD & DVD pressing plants and distribution centres will shut. The lorry drivers will lose their jobs, haulage firms will close. HMV's profits will reduce to virtually nothing, shop assistants will lose their jobs.

Even supermarkets are basing huge contributions to their bottom line on entertainment media. Do you know someone who works in a shop?

All this becuase you don't see the bigger picture.


As I said, it is accepted, but still technically you are in breach of the copyrights of the composer, publisher, artist and record label.

But I take your point.



Well lets take this argument to the next level.

Look at the bank robbery again.....

Robbers = Downloaders
Getaway Driver = NTL
Car = Internet

So do we ban all cars becuase they might be driven by getaway drivers?

can we not close this thread ive passed meself twice now :D

Like I said, if NTL are operating in anything illegal so is every other ISP in the entire world. Lets just dissolve the whole internet, that way we can all obey the laws on whatever happens to go on online.
I guess technically because the way backbone systems are in place NTL may have even been to blame for terrorism, hell yeah lets all just wage a war on NTL HQ that'll teach them for allowing us to use the internet.:rolleyes:

Imagine if it wasnt for this internet there wouldnt be anywhere near as much crime. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Wake up, live in the real world.

You're hillarious!

:D

Ty I do try sometimes. :D

So again I ask, should they be allowed to do it, just because you or I may be affected by the punishment that is handed out.:rolleyes:

No you come on, over dramatising the situation doesn't help anyone.:spin:

i dont know i doubt that he would seen as though he wasent going to the cinemas anyway.........


propganda what a tool to use read my links in the previous posts they still make millions its not as bad as they make out :rolleyes:

thats what is happening these days anyway

i think they should think of making decent storylines with decent actors its not about flashy footage onscreen for me

i have seen one or 2 movies as a rare thing and they are still crap these days compaired to 5-6 years ago T3 was the only one that got me really interested because its terminator

One last post....

Movies are downloaded via peer to peer applications.
People using p2p software download accross, not from NTL's infrastructure.
The news report mentioned how many movies had been downloaded, but did NOT say how or where from.

NTL are a bandwidth provider, the CUSTOMER decides what to do with the bandwidth.

The only way NTL would be culpable is if they hosted the movies people were downloading.

FACT and the RIAA / MPAA can go **** themselves really, as NTL are no more responsible for people downloading movies from p2p than the Royal Mail are responsible for people importing films / porn that would be illegal to sell in the UK.

but they are suggesting and encouraging it

But they aren't using it as a feature or benefit of having their service, can you see no wrong 'timewarrior2001?

Other ISP's I know of are actively trying to stop us from d/l illegally.:rolleyes:

I could suggest or encourage people to utilise mod chips for the XBox... but unless I happen to sell them, fit them or potentially OWN one, I am not guilty of any offence... your point is?

Besides... it looks more like a statement of what has happened since the inception of BB... Not a statement of NTL's activities.

True, NTL are not responsible for what their customers do with the service. Does that mean they should be using an illegal action as an example of why you should subscribe to their service?

What if Royal Mail printed an advert that said "x thousand hard porn films are imported into the UK every day. <<insert name of popular illegal film>> is available to buy from the US. Send your mail by Royal Mail"? Under your analogy, is that any different from what NTL are doing? If Royal Mail did produce such an advert and your ordered an illegal film, would you think it fair if Royal Mail then sent you a letter saying they'd confiscated the film? How would this be any different from NTL sending copyright infringement cease-and-desist letters?

Duncan

The customer decided what to use a gun for but you don't see any manufacturers saying 'Our x4564 was used in the Dunblane massacre' do you?

No But certain manufacturers are happy to say the SWAT teams etc use their firearms.

Heckler and koch being one.
Berretta another i beleive.

And hey come to think of it, werent the french well impressed and started bragging when the Argies used Exocet missles on British ships?

Again, Royal Mail don't imply 'you can send Anthrax to people you don't like through our service' do you? If you did you would be in uproar about it. This is exactly the same. It is not about who is responsible but who is taking advantage of a situation to make money immorally.

now your using stupid analoges what has a gun got to do with downloading movies ?

SWAT teams are a different issue, its like saying NTL B/B is used by the MOD for part of their communications, its not the same.

And another point, (not aimed at you Lord Nikon) some of you have said that NTL have done wrong, and ****ged off what members have done, which is their right, but not said what you think should be done. I think you should tell us you master plan, I'm interested.

An analogy is just that K, I'm sorry, I don't think NTL should have used this as a marketing tactic, yes it goes on, yes most of us have done it at some point, but, at this point in time it is illegal, and in using it in this way NTL have incited people to commit a crime. Further to that Ntl will be 'contacting' (I use that work in the loosest term of the word) new customers that may have signed up to D/L movies to tell them that they have exceeded the AUP.

Personally K, I think that NTL have shown their real feelings here, 'sod everything, as long as we make some money'.

I have d/l stuff in the past and would again, because the stuff I want is either out of print or unavailable. But to encourage people to break the law is not right.

they are making people aware of what you can do on the net its wrong but i dont see a direct link anywhere about downloading movies do you ?



how they are making people aware of whats available on the net

read the damn service update it says 3 days in a 14 day consecutive period so you can go over the limit 2 days within the 14 days period just not 3 or more

every company is out for your money NTL are no diffarent

thats why they should be honest in there advertisments about the services and not give the wrong impression.

Other wise it will lead to churn.

where is the dishonesty in that particular article ?

the impression of how many you can download

Just to put the extract I scanned into context of the rest of the advert, you can see the rest of it here:

(It was too large to scan, so I've photographed it. It's not amazingly clear, but you can read most of the text...)

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan....3/NTL_ad_1.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan....3/NTL_ad_2.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan....3/NTL_ad_3.JPG
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/duncan....3/NTL_ad_4.JPG

:wall:

That was the Bang head on wall smiley ;)

where is that it only mentions how many they estimate are downloaded every day on there network :rolleyes:

We don't know K, it doesn't state where the facts come from.:rolleyes:

they know it goes on and so do i and everyone else maybe they do moniter what people do :shrug:

but the point was made that they are misleading about how many you can download and that is not mentioned anyway so cannot be false

The key to all this is CONTEXT.

I posted this earlier today but as this thread is now so long I don't suppose anyone logging on now is going to bother to read everything that's gone before.

Look at the overall headline of the advert. It says:
and the sub-heading says:
Thus NTL's intent is clearly to tell you how good broadband is, and how good their broadband service is.

In support of the claims they make, they have a sidebar with its own headline that says:
Don't just take our word for what? Clearly, 'our award-winning broadband service is great, you can browse more and faster and it's low priced compared with the rest of Europe. But don't just take our word for it. Look at some of the great things you can do with broadband: ... '

And so on, including the facts about movie downloads and Spiderman.

Now, if these facts were quoted in a different CONTEXT, say in a newspaper report, there would be nothing wrong. They are simply statements about activities that are illegal. However, they are not in a newspaper report. They are in an advert, and that advert's CONTEXT is 'Broadband's great, look what you can do with it:' And the things stated are illegal. This is a breach of the ASA code, which says it is not allowed for an advertiser to incite a crime, and may also be a criminal offence.

This is a simple, straightforward account of the facts in this case. You can argue forever about whether p2p should be allowed, whether you can copy CDs you own, whether any of it makes any difference in the long run. But the fact is, NTL have arguably committed an illegal act and in any civil society, illegal acts carry penalties that they will have to face if they are convicted.

Hence
British Code of Advertising, Sales
Promotion and Direct Marketing (the rulebook used by the ASA) states:

2.2 All marketing communications should be prepared with a sense of
responsibility to consumers and to society.

4.1 Marketers have primary responsibility for ensuring that their
marketing communications are legal. Marketing communications should comply
with the law and should not incite anyone to break it.

And hence why I reported them to the ASA this morning. We will see if I am right or not.

A very clever piece of advertising really, the bloke who done it will probably get promotion.
Put 1 advert in a local newspaper, make it controversial and see how many people complain and lets see if we can get it on the news or in national papers, all for free of course.
OK, we`ll get a slap on the wrist for being naughty naughty but look how much free advertising we`ll get.
Tango, to name one of many are good at this trick.

Hopefuly, a big fine, too.
:rolleyes:

Any fine, which I doubt they would get, would be anywhere near the cost of national advertising, which would be free.
Have you seen the costs of advertising these days. If it ever did get that far, people would say NTL? Broadband?, whats all that about, lets have a look . Ntl would get new customers at low cost advertising and they would have achieved what they set out to do. These sort of things do go on, I work in a place that deliberately does this.

Then maybe you should be the one our moral guardians should be after!!:D :p ;)

that is so cynical.

- I like it:)

I also doubt NTL will be punished, other than agreeing not to repeat the reference to downloading films, without a disclaimer regarding copyright, anyway.:shrug:

Or the sack...one of the two!

They will certainly get a rap on the knuckles over this if someone has reported them. They might get a big fine.

What it likely to be more damaging is when the MPAA get wind of it - which might damage Front Row's relationship with the Studios - as ntl have a stake in its ownership.

what about the relationship with Vidzone

Talked to a friend who has a MA in marketing - its definately bad, and the company behind spiderman has everyright to make a law suit.

:spin: :spin: :eek:

Hmmm, I hadn't considered the Spiderman pic. I expect that ntl had permission from Sony to use the pic in promoting their services, which is par for the course.

However, by placing it next to a caption saying you could have watched it online before it was on at the cinema....?

Well, if Sony find out about it, it is likely that they will want to see all publicity material containing their copyright (i.e. publicity photos) so that they can ensure that it does not promote the illegal use of their product.

Hollywood is an incestuous place...so it likely that if Sony find out about it, all the other major Studios will too.

Oooops!

Access to image libraries like the one the Spiderman pic came from is under strict conditions of use. Promoting your wares by drawing attention to the illegal things you can do with the internet is certain not to be covered ...

Good, someone replied to my post - I was beginning to think you were shunning me

Not at all ... I think we're just all posted out after hitting the 20-page mark. I never thought this thread would get so controversial. It just looked like an open-and-shut case of monumental incompetence by some underling in ntl's marketing operation to me.

LOL....not at all...it's just difficult to keep up with everyone's posts.

The standard Columbia Pictures (who distributed Spiderman) statement on their publicity photos is:
"Permission granted for reproduction in newspapers and periodicals only. Use of this photograph in books, retrospectives or biographies, or in the conjunction with the sale or advertising of posters or any other product or service, or in any other manner not expressly permitted herein, is prohibited except with the written permission of Columbia Pictures Industries, Inc."

I don't however have any Columbia publicity photos more recent than 1991, so they may have changed that statement since then. The Spiderman picture may also have been licenced under different terms.

Since spiderman is shown on front row, does that give ntl more rights to use it?

Again, context is important. They would have the right to use the image to publicise the film, as this would probably have formed part of any deal ntl signed in order to show Spiderman on Front Row.

The key is, any use of the picture other than as Duncan quoted above is prohibited, except where written permission has been obtained. That written permission will doubtless be very specific in what additional activity it is permitting. If ntl acquired permission to use the Spiderman photo in the context of an advert for broadband internet it is highly unlikely that the licensor understood the exact use to which it was put. There's no way they would have agreed to this. And something tells me ntl probably forgot to ask anyway.

People I hope your pathetic attempt at getting NTL fined heavily blows up right in your faces.

I would have thought some of you had better things to do than waste other peoples time.
Instead of reporting NTL and inflicting financial penalties upon them, you should co-ordinate yourselves better and arrange meetings with Head office.

Oh no sorry I forgot its easier to bitch on here, and after the pathetic collapse of the anti cap brigade its shamefull some of you even dare critiscise NTL organisational skills.

Hey lets not forget, you dont have overwhelming backing either, its actually fortunate that most of the community here couldnt give a rats ass about the advert, a few memebers have stated they do not support you, yet you are still hell bent on pursuing your own little hissy fits with NTL.


Sad, so sad.

ditto what a sad state of affairs :rolleyes:

in respect of your comments people are organised have a look here

And meetings it just does not work:shrug:

Sheesh, take a deep breath and calm down eh? Is it too hard for you to believe that one or two of us might be concerned about general principles here, and not carrying on a vendetta against ntl? I think you need to sit back and try and get a wider perspective. There's more to life than ntl and there's more to this forum than people bent on getting at them or defending them at all costs.

Kronas, please see my reply to timewarrior - can't be bothered re-typing it all in answer to you.

Oh sorry I thought that there was s'posed to be mass disconnetion in protest etc. Funny also that I had only heard about the Anti Cap poeple a few days ago, unless it stems form the original groups if so they have been VERY quiet.

Still bitchin on forums too eh? thats progress for you

So I take it you have had no response from NTL, if you have had anything where is it? EDIT s'ok I found it lol right in front of me

One of your memebers even asked if you had made any progress.

Come on, I do support Anti cap but it has to be done properly it has to keep everything in the limelight.
Things organised on here seem to go out with a fizz rather than a bang. Maybe NTL would listen to us if they thought we were serious and could stop themselves laughing so much at the silly attempots at threats.

Well you are quite welcome to join :D

im not saying everyone has a vendetta against NTL a few do but getting them (NTL) in to bother will NOT solve anything only make matters worse for the company im not anti or pro NTL but getting your own isp in to trouble over something trivial is certainly something i still wonder about.......

Ntl aren't going to get leathered for this. They'll get their knuckles rapped and a fine (not a massive one). But I happen to think that in the long run they will be a better company if they learn that you can't just have a cavalier attitude to these things, they should be properly planned and thought through. It's not for me about 'getting your ISP in to trouble' ... that smacks of grassing in the playground, which is not what I am about.

what good is it going to do ?

do you really think NTL will care this is NTL you do know about there track record ?


but you are affectivly 'grassing' them up there are better more constructive ways to do certain actions and this is not one of them

the only logical reason i can see anyone taking action is......

its seems people really want to see NTL die and are hell bent on throwing every spanner they can find in to the works

:rolleyes:

Sooner or later, someone senior at ntl is going to start looking at the list of advertising infringements, and money paid in fines, and start thinking, 'hang on, we have a problem...' Remember, after their near-bankruptcy debacle last year, ntl's shareholders are all banks. And banks hate to lose money. Sooner or later, they will take note.

I'm well aware of their track record, and it's quite possible that they won't care this time. But eventually, with sustained pressure, they will have to take notice. The fines will start to get bigger, for instance.

As I said, that is the language of the playground, used by immature people to try to scare others into not doing the right thing. That is not my aim.

Perhaps you could list a few of these constructive ways, and explain why they are better than the official legal mechanisms I have employed by reporting the advert to the ASA?

If you choos to believe this, you are accusing me of telling an outright lie, as I have already stated in this thread that this is not my motivation. Are you accusing me of lying?

What is wrong with that if they do not listen