Re: Gatso camera case
 

Yep.. Was tired..

Having said that, the police aren't alllowed to drink on duty, so should be in a no wine situation... :D

Re: Road Traffic Act
 

Motorists are persecuted by the amount of time and effort utilised to enforce one law. Many other laws are relatively unenforced and unpunished. I would like to see GATSO revenue used to provide more policemen and women, so that crime can be reduced. Hey, that would be novel. Instead, we see policemen and women deployed to sit in a van 100 yards past a GATSO, IN CASE a driver speeds up. That's tackling crime? Let's start dealing with the problems we have, rather than those that we MAY have.

As for the balance, you have just slipped up. There is an old joke about a woman asked by a man if she will have sex for £1m; after a while she says that she will. He then offers her £5 instead and she says "Certainly not! Do you think I'm a prostitute?" He says "We've already ascertained that you are... now we're haggling on a price". So tell me, striking a balance, how many deaths on the road do you think are acceptable?

Re: Road Traffic Act
 

Well if you had been prosecuted you would have had no grounds for complaint, especially as you didn't realise what speed you were travelling at which sounds like driving without due care. I'd rather you were speeding and knew it ;) If a GATSO had snapped you then, yes, you would have been prosecuted and that would have been fair. The speed limit was what, 60 or 70, and you were doing 80. Now you might judge that road conditions allow you to break the law in this instance but that certainly does not mean you can say being prosecuted is unfair because you are aware of what the rules of the road are and you broke them. Yes officers have more discretion which I agree can be used sensibly but the lawlessness of speeders is so widespread that it is not possible for limits to be enforced by the police alone (this is their publicly stated position; they place the onus on local councils to ensure 20mph limits are self-enforcing - I have it in writing!).

Re: Road Traffic Act
 

I'm certainly not disputing I broke the law (although no crime was commited), my point is the Police tend to acknowledge that they prefer to go after the people causing a nuisance, which I certainly was not doing.

This is why they 'let me off'.

However it was a long, straight piece of motorway so I guess they understood how concentration can waver.

Re: Gatso camera case
 

And surely speeding fines are small beer to many drivers -especially if they obey not just the spirit but the letter of law :)

Re: Gatso camera case
 

There is a greater risk of death or injury if an accident occurs at higher speeds. That's not to say there is no risk at low speeds. You can be pulling out of your drive at less that 10 MPH and still hit and kill a predestrian. If you hit a car at 10 Mph, then it's likely that you will just dent your car, and be a bit angry at the cost of repairs. If you hit a car at 90 mph and they are doing seventy, then there is a much greater risk of death or serious injury.
Surely the driver should be used to his car? He should be aware of the safe stopping distances for that car (even if he doesn't know the distances in feet or metres, he should be aware of how quickly he can stop).

I do agree with you on driving conditions though. They can have a massive impact on safety (after all, I am sure you would agree even 30 MPH is not safe if there is low visibility, snow or ice).

True, but I don't think anyone is blaming speeding exclusively. As I have stated, bad driving causes accidents and speeding can be a symptom of bad driving.

And, yes, your last state is exxagerated, but true.


Some people (and I am not having a go at anyone here) forget that a car, if not used correctly, can KILL. IMO controlling your speed is part of that "correct use".

I think you can query the results of the roadside test, but if that happens, the police re-test you at the station on a machine which I believe is far more accurate.

Actually, I suspect the only reason the police do not use Gatsos or any automated devices to test for drunk driving is simply that they don't exist. I am sure if someone invented one, the police would use it. In fact the only way I can think of that something like that would work is if your car automatically breathalysed you when you started the Engine.


BTW, if you don't believe the police do try and catch drunk drivers, just go to the main exit of the New Covent Garden fruit and veg market in Vauxhall, London at around 1pm any day around Christmas. Not quite sure why, but the pubs in that market have had 24 hour opening since the early 70s (apparently something to do with the market's main trading hours being 11pm to 4 am). The Police hang around the exits of that place and pounce on anyone driving even slightly erratically.

Re: Gatso camera case
 

My argument on reducing speed limits is purely that if speed is such a hazrd, then more could be done to reduce that hazard. I personally don't think it is such a hazard, but you obviously do?

I like the wording of "in theory at least"... sadly that's the biggest problem here... we all know, or are fairly certain, that it isn't the case. If it were, perhaps we wouldn't feel so miffed about it.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Seeing as the Speeding and Gatso threads were so closely connected, I have made the decision to merge them both to tidy the threads up a bit.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Thank you, it was getting confusing!

Re: Gatso camera case
 

Well we can agree on something again :) I do think that the fact that speeding revenue is not reinvested in highway safety/public transport is a legitimate gripe. But at the end of the day speeding is an offence (whether you agree with it or not) and the only way of successfully cutting off that revenue stream is not to speed.

And it is excess speed that is the issue - the hazard - not speed in itself, so reducing limits is not the point as such. I certainly do think excess speed is a hazard because I see it every day on the urban roads around where I live and see my and the lives of my partner and, particularly children, threatened by impatient, adrenaline fuelled selfish idiots.

On Russd's case I'm interested to hear he was pulled for doing 80 on a motorway. I think the significantly lower risk of travelling at speed on motorways is reflected by the scarcity of GATSOs on them; the only place I can think of where fixed site cameras are used on motorways to any great extent is the M25 variable limit area (and they are there to help/force drivers to ease congestion as much as anything).

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I wasn't pulled over for it - the police officer pulled alongside me and the passenger shone a torch at me as a 'warning'.

Re: Gatso camera case
 

I cannot disagree with what you are saying, nor would I. There appear to be several reasons why GATSOs etc are so reviled. Firstly they seem to be used in a manner (ie location, siting etc) where they will gain maximum revenue; secondly, that revenue is clearly not used in a way that is beneficial to anyone except the Government.

Every driver that I have met who has been caught by a camera has the same approach: fair enough, I was speeding, I got caught. Nobody LIKES to be caught, but you do the crime, you serve the time. But so many people have experience where the camera itself was used on a road where there seems to be less of a problem, but more likelihood of catching speeders, as opposed to being used in a situation or location where people are known to speed but the camera would be easily spotted. And yes I know the regulations about painting them yellow and putting them in full view, but in practice that doesn't always happen.

By the way, re the M25 variable limits. Great in theory, awful in practice. Not well managed, in my opinion.

PS we agree on one other thing: death on the roads should be reduced as much as possible. What we don't appear to agree on is whether GATSOs actually help.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

There is an indisputable fact that the greater the speed a vehicle is travelling at, the more serious the consequences of an accident that the vehicle is involved in. Anyone disagree with that?

There is an indisputable fact that people can be killed and injured in accidents at any speed. Anyone disagree?

Is the second fact a reason why drivers should ignore a speed limit?

There is a belief in many drivers that having a well maintained car with such aids as ABS braking means that they can always stop quickly and avoid any accident. Is that really the case?

There is a belief in many drivers that they have superhuman concentration levels and reaction times which means they can avoid any accident. Are their beliefs right?

There is a belief in many drivers that they know better than road planners and safety experts. Do they?

There is a belief in many drivers that they know the roads they travel regularly and know that the speed limits are too low and that they can safely exceed the speed limit. Is this false knowledge?

There is a belief in many drivers that Gatsos are only cash cows. They do bring in cash but only because the drivers speeding past them are too stupid to drive along and not see them. What else are they not seeing?

A traffic policeman once told me that in many cases they prosecute drivers for speeeding not so much because they are speeding but because they are not concentrating on driving enough to have seen the road traffic car with its police insignia.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I think your last point speaks volumes - lack of concentration is more of an issue than speeding IMO.

Driving at speed is not necessarily dangerous, after all the police manage it. But how? They are trained to do so and are made aware of all potential hazards. The issue here is your average speeding driver does not have such precision training and is left open to hazardous behaviour.

Rather than knee-jerk punishment, I think driver re-education is the key.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

So now we have psychic policemen, who know WHY people are speeding? Pity they can't put their psychic powers to use and prevent more crime, ideally by turning up around the time an incident happens as opposed to hours or even days later?

Here's a gripe, let's see how you argue this one: I object to mobile camera vans being parked within 100 yards of GATSOs, on the basis that the GATSOs have been effective enough to make drivers slow down (which I thought was the purpose?), but the police still want to catch speeding motorists.

Why? Well, a GATSO costs how much? Let's say £20k. A mobile van costs how much? Say £30k including equipment. That works out at, say 2 Police officer salaries. Therefore we have effectively tied up 3 officers AND a GATSO, when the GATSO is doing the job perfectly well. And the biggest gripe of all is when you try to call the police to an incident, they are "too busy... under-staffed... engaged on more important crimes". Please evaluate and justify that one for me?

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Says the man who's just admitted he didn't notice he was doing 80 in a 70 ;) Speeding and lack of concentration!

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Good point, Russ D. But I have known a lot of policemen over the years, and let me tell you that not everyone who drives a Panda car has high speed training. Therefore they may be better than average drivers, or they may be worse.

I agree 100% that education is the key though. Good point very well made.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I disagree - my speeding that day was not causing anyone a problem - it was soley my lack of concentration.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Please do listen. These points have already been dealt with. A driver slows down for a fixed camera then thinks, ha, ha I'm so clever, I'm going to speed again. Then mobile copper catches him and says ha, ha, you're not clever at all you muppet, please give me 60 notes in return for 3 points on your licence. The limit affects the entire road not just the bit with those white measurement lines and a camera.

A GATSO is a one-off capital cost and more than pays for itself. There is absolutely no resources argument to be had. None at all. Zilch. Nowt. Zip. And if we removed GATSOs we'd then need more coppers to enforce speed limits so we'd have less human resource to deal with other offences. Evaluated and justified.
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But if you are not concentrating and you are speeding you are more of a risk than if you are concentrating and speeding. If you couldn't concentrate on your speed how can you be trusted to be concentrating on other hazards?

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Because I'm HUMAN - you show me a driver who claims he or she has never lost concentration whilst on the road and I'll show you a liar or a person in denial.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I agree that driver education is important. So £60, 3 points and training seems a good method of dealing with offenders :erm:
__________________


But if you are in charge of a vehicle you have to concentrate - yes, people have lapses. And there is nothing that irritates me more than people driving - at excess speed or not - who are oblivious to what's going on around them. They certainly should be a focus for police attention and awareness training. But when lack of concentration causes you to speed - well that's a frightening combination. Those police drivers who whizz about represent a lower risk because of their concentration (and training) - and the sirens and the pretty blue lights too.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

No it isn't!! How is that going to stop someone on Income Support who will make an arrangement to pay it back at £1 per week?? How will it stop that person if they have blatant disregard for the points system and will drive if banned?

However if someone was educated well enough about the dangers of driving at speed (and overcome the "it'll never happen to me" mentality) then SURELY that will be more productive?

Can I assume you're not a driver? I refuse to believe any driver who says they have never crept over the limit (even by 1mph) due to lack of concentration. It does not make you a bad person - it just means you need to try and be more alert in future. Again the police recognise this and the example is what happened to me in the situation I described a few posts back.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

As I say I don't disagree at all about awareness training. It's a good idea. £1 a week can be a lot to someone on Income Support - if you're making a case for income related fines (I suspect you're not :) ) then I'm with you although that will bring with it quite an adminstrative burden

Agreed if someone is going to drive when banned then a GATSO doesn't help as such (although if there's a picture of them speeding....); I've already made the point that I'd like to see more resources going into other areas of policing and with other offences being targeted (but that doesn't mean I think GATSOs should be removed)

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Who said anything about psychic policemen? You are travelling along a road at above the speed limit and pass a police road traffic car parked by the roadside. You don't slow down and carry on at the same speed. The police car sets off and follows you for half a mile still doing the same illegal speed. It pulls you over and issues a ticket. What's psychic about that. If you were concentrating you would have seen the police car and seen it set off. You would have seen it in your rear view mirror following you. Even if the police car had set off after you had lost site of it you should have been aware that it could have done so and checked your mirrors regularly.

Gatsos make the drivers who see them slow down in most cases but do they stay at that lower speed? Many speed up as soon as the detection area is passed and some even drive faster because they have been inconvenienced by the camera.

I don't think much of your estimate of costs but that isn't relevant. The Gatso is only doing its job in its detection area and amongst other things it is a warning that there is a speed limit. A mobile speed trap just after the gatso is there to see if you have heeded the warning.

The law covers many situations and crimes, all of which require policing. When you call the police to an incident you do not know what most of the police are engaged in and the priority of these jobs. Each police force has a road traffic division which deals with incidents on the road, law enforcement on the road and road education such as the "Too Fast, Too Close, Too Late" initiative. The thing about speeding is that it is easy to detect and much publicised because so many drivers get prosecuted but these are only a very small proportion of the ones actually guilty of speeding. My own view is that most drivers exceed the speed limit because they are complacent and know the chances of being caught are very small.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I am a driver of a Renault Scenic 1.6RT. A suitably sensible family car I'm sure you'll agree! Look, I don't disagree with the course of action that the police took in your case, not least because you were speeding on a motorway (where accident risk is substantially lower; I would qualify that though by saying, despite that lower risk, if you are prosecuted for speeding on a motorway there can be no complaints). But I would have been happier if you knew you were speeding, that's all. Yes, GATSOs can't apply discretion but their siting, despite protestations, is risk related, which is why they are so much rarer on motorways (and why they are introduced on motorways during roadworks; the road conditions have changed and risk increased). If they stuck a GATSO on every inch of motorway I would agree with people that their use was over the top. But they don't.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

You mean they were watching the the road and where they were going instead of staring down at their speedo - how stupid of them :rolleyes:

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

£60, 3 points, driver training... I've never seen any NIP that trains a driver, have you?

Psychic policemen - the point here is that the police don't know WHY you are speeding, there could be many reasons. So to say they stop you for any one reason is basically a lie, whatever your police friend told you.

My figures on GATSOs were purely speculative. But whilst they may repay the capital cost, there is maintenance and upkeep. Do the nice policement who visit then and relaod them not get paid? What about when they get vandalised? Do they not require calibration or checking, just like every other measurement tool on the planet? Do they not suffer wear and tear?

I may be wrong here, but is the purpose of GATSOs not purported to be MAINLY as a tool to reduce accidents/injuries/deaths? And are they not more widely used to generate revenue?

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Speeding fines by themselves in general are not a deterrent for the reasons you state. What is the answer? Maybe so many hours of compulsory attendance at a driver education program in addition to fine and points.

I would agree that I have been as guilty as every driver of going over the speed limit at times. Sometimes you can be concentrating more on what is happening around you than your speedo. I do though try to adhere to the limits. Perhaps cars should be fitted with warning buzzers that sound when you go over the limit? The bad drivers though are the ones who deliberately speed and are so unaware of what is going on around them that they fail to see the police car, gatso camera and warning signs. If a gatso camera gets you then it is your fault and yours alone. They wouldn't make a penny if drivers were concentrating.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

If I were in power, I would make the following rules: Drink drivers would be banned for life. People driving whilst banned would be imprisoned. Gatso revenue would be used to fund more police officers. Speeding alone would not result in penalty points, just a fine. People found guilty of careless or reckless driving woul;d be dealt with more harshly. If however someone caused an accident and speeding were found to be a factor, then they should have the book thrown at them. Speed limits would be reviewed, and some lowered, some raised. For example within say 200 yards of a school or home for the elderly, a limit of 20mph should be set and rigorously enforced.

This is not a detailed prospectus of my plan for traffic management, but just a few ideas. Agree if you like, slate them if you wish.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

What's a NIP got to do with it. It was just a suggestion for a different penalty.

Does it matter WHY you were speeding? You are speeding, it is an offence. If you think that you had mitigating circumstances for speeding then let the courts decide.

Who says policemen do those tasks? They don't.

They are used as a tool to reduce accidents/injuries/deaths and as a warning that you should watch your speed. If they generate revenue it is only because you are stupid enough not to heed the warning and to pass one at a speed greater than the speed limit. It's only the driver that makes them a cash cow.
__________________

The only thing I could not agree with is no penalty points for speeding. You need to commit more than one offence for them to be a problem so heed the warning of your first points. Otherwise good thinking. :tu:

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

No it doesn't matter whay, but there was a previous posting that stated:

"A traffic policeman once told me that in many cases they prosecute drivers for speeeding not so much because they are speeding but because they are not concentrating on driving enough..."

In my locality we often see policemen opening up GATSOs. I presume they are policemen as they wear police uniforms and drive police vehicles.

There better ways to warn people to watch their speed, but for some reason they are not deployed. I don't know, but it may be because they don't generate revenue?

Too many people drive too fast. But too many people drive badly or dangerousl, within the speed limit. Example: If I am on a motorway and the middle and outside lanes are being hogged by 45mph drivers, and I decided to pass on the EMPTY inside lane, who is more likely to be prosecuted? I think it would be me. But am I the only person driving "without due care and attention"? No.
__________________

Thank you Ian, let's start a political party!

By the way, I have 3 points for no real offence... "Failing to provide info" when I genuinely don't have the info. Recent developments lead me to believe my number plates have been copied, but that's another matter. Any way, I have three points.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I once had a speeding endorsement on my licence (1972) and I know I wasn't speeding. I was stopped by a road traffic car on the M606. I couldn't prove I wasn't speeding and the court believed the two police offices. No fixed penalties in those days.

GATSO cameras are all supplied by a company called Serco Justice who plan, install, calibrate and maintain the cameras including traffic light cameras. They are the only people who are authorised to calibrate the systems and issue the annual certificate which is used in evidence by the courts.

One of the best road warning systems are the radar controlled speed limit signs which light up like Blackpool illuminations if you approach them too fast. Some of these also display the registration number of the offending vehicle which makes them even more of a warning to the offender.

What most people are unaware of is the high number of "invisible" cameras deployed mainly on motorways. These detect and record speed and number plate of offending vehicles but are not certified for use in motoring offence prosecutions. The smallest of these is actually fitted into the cats eyes on the carriageway.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

An recent posting mentioned drink drivers being targetted in the run up to Christmas. This is something I also disagree with. Called me what you like, but I would rather have police doing spot checks all year round, followed by SEVERE court action for guilty offenders, than the usual round of Christmas statistics.

This whole thing about traffic offences makes me think a new approach might me more effective. For example, taking the most serious offences (causing death by dangerous driving, drink driving, driving whilst disqualified?), and treat the offenders more harshly than ever before. The message would filter down that offenders will be dealt with properly. It starts at the top, and the domino effect would, I think, produce greater results than our current methodology.

Part of the problem at the moment seems to be what "normal" drivers see as injustice. Joe Public may end up with points on his licence, which may cost him his job, livelihood, increased insurance premiums etc. Some might think this is justified. But then we hear on the news, read in papers et about banned drivers who are on their third or fourth offence, who have just been banned for... driving whilst banned.

I am not supporting sensationalist journalism, nor am I trying to justify people with any level of driving convictions, but to most of us it seems that the penalties are much harsher for rare offenders than persistent ones.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I agree with most of what you are saying. The easiest way to murder someone is to mow them down with your car and then drink a bottle of Scotch. You will get off far more leniently than someone who kills using a gun.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Much of that makes sense but speeding can be a serious offence (it can be a crucial part of a dangerous driving prosecution for example as a recent fatal case around here showed). The problem is speeding only becomes a serious criminal offence when someone is killed or injured; but if you speed you are likely to be increasing the risk of accident and just because you haven't yet killed or injured someone doesn't mean the offence shouldn't be treated as serious. And speeders are not rare offenders. They are everywhere and they are persistent.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Thats interesting. Got any links?

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Yes, but as has been stated, "speeders" covers people driving between 1mph and 100mph over the limit. And, it seems acknowledged that every driver at some stage may drift over the limit, even momentarily.

"Serious" speeders, for want of a better word, should be all but hung. Someone who drives at 31mph should be ignored UNLESS their actions have dire consequences. But equally, someone driving badly below the limit should be punished.

It's a difficult one, but maybe what needs to happen is speed should be a factor in a conviction, as opposed to the offence itself?

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I think you might be confusing the traffic master system with speed cameras. They record registrations of vehicles as they pass sections of motorway and then use this to work out average speeds and then if average speeds are low it calculates there is a hold up.


It's only a technology that has been talked about.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

But you can't have arbitrary speed limits; they would be unenforceable. Tell you what though if you get done for doing 31 in a 30, I'll pay the fine for you ;) As I said before I agree with action the copper took against Russ but if you look at that example, Russ was nearly 15% over the speed limit; that's quite a margin really. Do 40 in a 30 - a far worse crime in my book - and you are more than 30% over the speed limit.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I agree, arbitrary speed limits are neither feasible nor practical. And hoping that a magistrate will be interested enough to even listen to what one has to say is pure fantasy. Even before my own experience I had heard horror stories. Maybe the GAtsoS themselves are less of a problem than the scale of fines and the handling of cases by the courts? I would have second thoughts about going to court now, even if I had the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury as witnesses that I was 1000 miles away! I got the impression that I was just another motorist chancing his arm, in their eyes.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

C'mon, you've had my sympathy for your case.... don't push it! ;)

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I'm sure that you can find some with a little googling. :)

These camera studs were first trialled on the M8 in Scotland and I believe are in use in America and Australia. I think they were manufactured or designed by Astucia. Astucia also have intelligent cats eyes for use in fog where the cats eyes change colour for a time when vehicles pass over them warning you that there is a vehicle in front of you. They also have anti tailgating cats eyes.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Ah yes, but I sadly have another case coming up which I am arguing. Wait till you hear this!

I have a bad habit when I am driving, which is to drive with my elbow on the door edge and my head on my hand. Technically driving one handed, but obviously only when I'm on an open road, not changing gear etc.

A while back I was driving along in this manner when I saw a traffic car behind flashing me to pull over. I did, although it was in a dangerous position and got out to ask what the problem was. The driver (a WPC) was extremely rude; so much so that I complained to an inspector later on and received an apology, whilst she was unoffocially told off.

ANyway, back to the incident. I was accused of using a mobile phone at the wheel (although I have a bluetooth headset), and offered the option of accepting a ticket or going to court. I am a principled person and have refused to accept guilt for something I haven't done, so I now await a court date.

Sadly, I was told by the WPC (there was also a male officer in the car), that they had video evidence. I saw this, and it shows basically a pink blob and nothing more. When I pointed this out the WPC said "Well, we'll both go to court and say that we saw you doing it". And this was after they passed me going the other way, sped up and flew around a roundabout, speeding again to catch me. There was no other traffic and I was below the speed limit (as proven by the video).

Now, firstly what purpose did their action serve? Secondly, what hope have I got in a magistrates' court against two police officers - one of whom should have been looking at the road, and the other of whom could see as much as his camera ie nothing?

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

As I said I have every sympathy when the evidence is dubious (although as you say, bad habit!). If I was you though, I think i'd be paranoid cos if what you say is true then they are out to get you :)

No offence to anybody but I personally think this thread has run its course (ie I'm getting bored) so I shall bid you farewell and even a little adieu. Cheers chaps.







Unsubscribe.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Why didn't you put both hands on the wheel when you first saw the police car on the other side of the road?

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Because I was pootling along at 35mph in a 50 limit, and they were haring the other way. It didn't really occur to me that resting one's head on one's hand was an offence. It certainly didn't occur to me that it looked like anything else. Besides, I was concentrating on what was ahead, and behind me, rather than what I looked like to a car which was flying in the opposite direction!

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

35 in a 50?? I take it the road conditions were pretty bad? If they were good and the copper was as grumpy as you say I'm surprised they didn't do you for that.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Gazzae, I was 15mph BELOW the speed limit! There was no other traffic around. It was a clear day, dull but not wet. Why would they do me for NOT speeding?!

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

You can be done for driving too slow. Imagine a twisty road where the limit is 50, someone pottering along at 20mph. Would you like to come round a bend at a safe speed and have to brake suddenly cause someone is driving slower than required?

I'm not saying this is the case with you all I was saying it was surprising that if she was as rude and grumpy as you say that she didn't try to charge you with something else

Try taking your driving test again and driving at 15mph below each limit, I guarantee you wouldn't pass.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

The offence is of Dangerous Driving actually, if you go too slow.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

you were causing an obstruction! a passing police car was having trouble reaching 70mph 'cos of you!

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

No I wouldn't. But then I wasn't on my driving test. I agree that if I was holding up a huge queue of traffic then that would be a nuisance at least... but driving at a reasonable speed on an empty road, with adequate overtaking possibilities... doesn't seem too bad to me!

I just wonder what the WPC was hoping to gain.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

A conviction.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

At any cost, it would appear. And with little justification.

I have to say, the inspector was extremely helpful and very courteous. He also went to great lengths to resolve the complaint. But the case was never withdrawn, and that still hangs over my head. Any bets as to what my chances are of winning? Only if I could avoid low-flying pigs methinks.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Maybe they genuinely thought you were using a mobile phone. I don't know anyone who drives with their head resting in their hand so I assume it would be easy to think you were using a phone.

I imagine with phones being small these days they would be difficult to see in police video.

Of course that doesn't excuse them for being rude.

If you go to court and explain that you have a handsfree kit and weren't using your phone then you may get off with that, but you may well be fined for driving without due care or something for having your head in your hand.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

On reflection you should have given them your mobile phone and asked them to do a 1471 to see when the phone was last called and told them you would send them a copy of your next phone bill to show you hadn't called anyone at the time of the incident. This wouldn't have conclusively proved that you weren't trying to call someone but it may have given them enough doubt to not bother prosecuting.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Exactly! They even threatened to confiscate my phone and have it checked for usage at that time! And as you say, if they can't prove one offence they'll get me for another.

As the inspector pointed out, behaviour like that does nothing to enhance the relationship between Police and public.

By the way, the leaning thing is just a habit, using the door as a kind og high-up armrest. I'm over 6ft and it just feels comfy. I see taxi drivers doing it in London all the time. In hindsight it may have looked like me using a phone, but that doesn't excuse the threat of two police officers swearing they saw something that didn't happen.
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You are right, but these days I don't even have faith in conclusive proof! It's just an example where SOME police do persecute the motorist, or at least appear to. A gentle word would have resolved it, no harm done, let's be on our way. But the action they took was a little strong, in my opinion, taking all factors and circumstances into account.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

I have probably mentioned it before about my one and only speeding conviction . I was driving a Mercedes up the M606 from its junction with the M62. There was a temporary national speed limit of 50 mph due to the effects of the Arab Israeli war. I was in the centre lane doing just under 50 mph whilst the nearside lane had several heavy lorries going rather slower because of the gradient. I know the speed I was doing because I checked it when I saw a police road traffic car coming along the sliproad between the M62 and M606. The police car sped up behind me and put on his blues. I pulled onto the hard shoulder and was asked by one of the two police officers how fast I was going. I told him 48 mph. He said that they had clocked me at 68 mph. Talking it over with several friends in the police force and a solicitor friend they all gave the same advice. Plead guilty and pay the fine, you won't get away with the charge and might end up having to pay more.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Driving with only one hand on the wheel is not an offence.
Swerving around or doing it in conditions where it could be dangerous (such as on an icy road) however I believe will have you up for driving without due care and attention.

me283, any correspondance, use recorded delivery, contact your mobile operator and get a copy of your bill for that day to show that you were not making any calls and send it to them, tell them you are certain that your mobile operator will be more than happy to supply evidence that your phone was not in use at the time.
If it does get passed to the court and you recieve the forms, plead not guilty and enter in all the evidence such as the fact you have a bluetooth hands free kit, the itemised phone bill, and that they can contact your operator to find out if the phone was in use.
Also seek legal advice.

It could be that because you kicked up a fuss over the speeding ticket, this WPC has got wind of it, and spotted your number plate and took advantage (although that is a small posibility)

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Xaccers, thanks for the advice. I have a copy of the itemised bill which shows the last call to have been about 10 minutes before (I had only just started driving). So far they haven't contacted me and it happened in October, so I wait with anticipation.

I wondered if it is down to the car that I drive - an Audi TT. I was told by someone that proportionally these sre the most ticketed cars on the road! Maybe I'll trade it in for a Skoda...
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It also transpired that I was not the only person who had complained about this particular WPC, and she was put forwarded for specific advice/training in relation to the way she dealt with members of the public. I think it pays to take these matters further when you have been wronged by and public or civil servants.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

What has this to do with Speeding ?

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Actually Paul, one of the often mentioned points relates to the deployment of Police officers and the feeling by some motorists that they are persecuted; this is a tangential continuation of that. It also a thread pertaining to the RoadTraffic Act, under which it appears all motoring offences come.

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

Ah, I didn't know Russ had merged this with the RTA topic as the title referred to Speeding only. Title updated. :)

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

:tu: Top advice as ever.

But my main worry here would be the broader picture.

By proving that it does nothing to prove that the phone as far as they are concerned belonged to the driver.

They would dispute this proves nothing other than the person concerned not using their own phone at the time.

But if they have evidence against this then it will not help.

:D

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

And of course the implications are quite frightening. The idea of "don't bother arguing, it's two against one". If the guy in McDonalds has a bad day he gives you less chips or burns the burgers; if the postman has a bad day he may mis-deliver some letter; if a WPC has a bad day you can end up with points and fines... and it seems there's not much that can be done about it.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Not really related to speeding as such, more towards council's attitudes to motorists.

1) We are actually quite lucky where I live, there are not an awful lot of Gatsos. In fact I know of three - two on roads that are on the way to schools, and one notorious accident blackspot (there is one dual carriageway near us and there was at least one fatal accident a week on it as the average speed always seemed over 80 and the road bends suddenly). The local police (or whoever decides these things) seems to prefer using the speed warning signs (the ones that flash up your speed). I actually prefer this method if enforcement.


2) Our council does not entirely think clearly about road safety though. There is a very shallow bend in the main road that mine leads into, so people do tend to take it quite fast. The council have recently erected a lighted poster reminding people to drive carefully. Where have they placed it? In the one area where it blocks the view of oncoming traffic from both directions. What's even worse is that the local chavs have nicked the posters from each side of the board, so all the drivers can see at night is bright white flourescent lighting.

Re: [MERGED] - Speeding/Gatso cameras
 

Ask the police to produce evidence that a phone was in use from that vehicle.
Request the police produce said phone.
Innocent until proven guilty and all that :)

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

My opinions well known so a bit of light relief:

Before you look at the pic.......


Tired of speeding tickets?

Want to open up spaces between you and the cars around you?

Step 1. Tie these balloons to your car

Step 2. Drive VERY FAST

Step 3. Watch people freak out.

Step 4. Tell the nice officer you thought they were real.







But remember speeding is bad and don't ehinge if you get caught ;)

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

Nice one Andy ;)

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

Now they're going to ban detectors: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4333671.stm

But apparently NOT the ones that use GPS to alert of fixed cameras.

Now they argue that the detectors allow drivers to know when they can or cannot speed. I would have thought the ones for fixed cameras have the same effect.

Sounds to me more like they know that the 'mobile' cameras, which are not subject to the visibility guidelines, make such good money they wouldn't want us to find a way around them.

The only reason why the police are so keen to have ever more powers to tackle speeding etc. is because it's one 'crime' where the perpetrators have actually been forced to show their 'id' before they commit the crime. So nice, simply, uncomplicated policing. Just about what woodentops can handle.

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

At last!!

A voice of sense and reason....

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...311047,00.html

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

You serious?

I'd prefer to do the driving, not leave it to a computer.

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

Absolutely. I've always believed that speed cameras have been a major cause of traffic congestion.

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

I'd rather have the cameras & the congestion than losing control of my vehicle.

Re: [Merged] - The Road Traffic Act (inc Speeding)
 

I'm not a fan of abdicating control of the car to a machine but his comments on speed cameras are very much welcomed.