Re: smoking and the pub
 

I presume you mean how easy you found it to give up? It is generally considered a very hard addiction to break... I tried (unsuccessfully), and I certainly did not find it easy.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

you got 'Kinged' too, very well deserved in my opinion :)

- but did you give up in the end, I did - apart from the lapse marina will testify to, last year (love you :p: ), It is easier now - and my chest works a lot better :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ta :)

I still smoke. I still hope to give up at some point though ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

anything I can help with, etc - and not me just being a smug bar steward, danielf, get in touch :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yeah, I do mean how easy I found it to give up. However the fact that people do give it up every day shows that it is entirely possible.


I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this the other day. I was saying how, admittedly, although I had smoked on and off for 10 years, I don't think I was addicted, or rather that I was constantly addicted. The amount I smoked varied hugely; sometimes I smoked every day, throughout the day, sometimes I was only smoking when I went out. She was the same, and both of us found it relatively easy to quit. However, her boyfriend cannot conceive of quitting, and I doubt he ever will. He smokes at very regular times throughout the day, and whilst my friend and I would smoke loads on a night out and not at all during the day, when he is out he doesn't smoke any more than he does on a night in. I think he smokes about 10 a day, at set times.

This leads me to believe that addiction to smoking is largely based on habit, and also on association. When I was out I constantly wanted to smoke, because the alcohol seemed to make a perfect partner for a cigarette. I liked to smoke after heavy meals. Other people love a fag with a coffee, or one before breakfast.

I believe 'addiction' to cigarettes is hugely to do with habit and association, and less to do with the drug itself.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

both - imo

- which is why it is so addictive, hand to mouth causes nice feeling, is a fundamental level in our psyche, nicotine rewards that in an unique way :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Smokers...... Imagine being in the pub in a group of 4 friends at the pub and every 3 mins 2 of them f@rt, long and loud.....Imagine the smell forcing it's way into your nostrils.....making your nauseous....Crude, perhaps but this is similar to sitting next to a smoker for a non-smoker. The noise and the smell is in itself discourteous but when you consider that smoking actually causes your friend harm, is selfish and wrong.

This is why we are so passionate about it.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

When did you meet my friends?

:p:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
__________________

You mean you found it easy to give up. Have a medal. That doesn't mean everyone does. And reading dome of your other post, you were barely more than a social smoker. I however have smoked 20 a day (possibly more on a particularly boozy night out), for the past 10 years and find the thought of giving up hard to deal with, let alone actually doing it.


Pointless thought really. If my local goes nonsmoking, it'll close anyway. So therefore a good frind of mine loses her business and her money, I lose my second job and me and my other chuffing mates have to find a smoke-easy somewhere else.... :rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Do you smoke in front of non-smokers or take care to only go into smoking areas?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Indeed it is possible to give up. I have and have been stopped for nearly 2 years. But to say it was easy it was NOT. Do you not think that if it was easy everyone that wanted to stop would. Let me tell you now that you never stop giving up. I found it extremely hard and still do but i made the CHOICE to stop not because another ADULT said i should.

As for smoking in pubs. I think if food is not being served in that pub then it should be up to the owner if his or her pub is smoking or non smoking. We are adults and as such have a choice. Visit the smoking pub or don't visit the smoking pub. I don't see teams of white horse's dragging ADULTS in to pubs. If you don't want to go to a smoking pub THEN DONT. Don't go mouthing it off that its disgusting how you have to put up with smokers in a pub if you have the CHOICE to go in or not go in. I have the choice and i make sure i make the choice for me not for anyone else. When the time comes that we are forced in to pubs then i will withdraw my statement. I am a ADULT and i don't like other ADULTS telling me what i can and cannot do just because THEY think it should be there WAY

Re: smoking and the pub
 

The bar is a smoking area, with three extraction filters. There's a small smoking dining section at the back of the pub, and a lrage non smoking section adjacent to the bar. If I eat there, I always sit in non smoking.

My other half is an ex smoker, and he has no problem with me smoking next to him at the bar (or wherever I choose to smoke). Thankfully, he's not hypocrytical like some ex-smokers can be. I don't smoke indoors at home, as I don't like smoky rooms, and of course I don't smoke anywhere near the children.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I'm an ex smoker, & I have no problems with anyone smoking around/in front of me. :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That's because you're reasonable, and don't consider yourself above those that are weaker willed than you. :kiss:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yes I do mean that I found it hard to give up, as I am sure my other post made clear:
I know that you never stop giving up. I think we need to be a little clear on the subjectivity of the word 'easy'. In my mind giving up is easy, because nothing else in your life is taken away than the cigarette itself, or the relief given to you by the cigarette. But that itself passes with time anyway.
I haven't said it is 'disgusting that I have to put up with smokers', more that smoking itself is disgusting, and that I don't want to put up with it.
As for smoking in pubs. I think if food is not being served in that pub then it should be up to the owner if his or her pub is smoking or non smoking. We are adults and as such have a choice. Visit the smoking pub or don't visit the smoking pub. I don't see teams of white horse's dragging ADULTS in to pubs. Adults, choice, no need to highlight these words. In my opinion, there is nothing nannying about stopping smokers from smoking in public places. It's not the same as saying now come on smokers, hand me your cigarettes, cos we have decided you are not to smoke them any more. Just smoke them in your own space.
I don't think it's hypocritical to realise the error of your ways and to express that your former type of behaviour is wrong. Were I still a smoker, and say, smoked in front of some people but not others, or smoked in pubs but not nightclubs, and criticised those that did then yes, I would be hypocritical.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You know there is such a thing as a person who enjoys going to a pub but doesnt enjoy smoke?:rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Yeah, but they're just weird :disturbd:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

QED. :wavey:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Smokers....it kills you and it kills me. I don't smoke so you shouldn't be able to do it near me. Full stop.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Hear hear. Sorry but all of this speak of the nanny state, and choices etc doesn't do it for me and sounds like a thinly veiled excuse for continuing to smoke when and where you like. No one is trying to nanny you, it's simply a case of trying to protect those who choose not to smoke from the harmful effects produced by those who do.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

BUt why can there not be a choice of smoking or non smoking pubs?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Because then the choice of where we all go depends on whether the pub is smoking or non-smoking.


Why can't there be sealed rooms for smokers?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Because I dont want to have to pick and choose where I can go to the pub, just because you want to light up. You made the decision to smoke, so you should have to deal with the consequences, as you said, your an adult.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

There are, they're called pubs ;) :jk:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No **** sherlock! :rolleyes:


No idea. Why can't those who own their own business choose what they have happen on their own premises?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

First i dont smoke. But my answer to you is DONT GO NEAR THEM. There are loads of none smoking pubs where i live and i go in both. Or is it a case of they should not smoke because i say so.

then i suppose as i dont like 4x4's then they should not drive them near me in case they harm me. Same reasoning.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well I must say I thought it was rather an obvious point too...shame you didn't pick up on it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangebird No idea. Why can't those who own their own business choose what they have happen on their own premises?

Because health concerns need to be taken into account, hence the laws already set up to prevent dangerous activitites taking place in such places (such as drug abuse etc) and the proposal to ban smoking.
And for the above reasons. That we who choose not to smoke should not be restricted from going to certain places just cos we don't want to breathe in second-hand smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Why should smokers be segregated because you have to go to a smoking pub. If the owner of the pub wants smokers then except it. This is just a case that you think you might not get something someone else wants.

I don't like diesel cars because they are giving out cancerogenic fumes but i have no choice but breath them in. But i have the choice of wear i drink and exercise my right to go to the pub that i want to attend.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Because there are laws, these laws must be abided, no-one owning a business has a free-reign per se, especially when their business affects the general public, and please stop with the 'if you dont like it, go somewhere else' because its childishly selfish

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Childishly selfish. Grow up. when have you had the right to tell another adult what they can and cannot do if you have the choice not to go there. So if i was drinking arsenic would you want some in case you miss out..

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Erm I did, that's why I replied as I did :dunce: I'm happy to only be able to go into certain pubs. Why aren't you?

Abuse of some drugs is illegal - SMOKING ISN'T.

But having only some pubs non smoking would tackle this too - why does it have to be a blanket ban?
Your above reasons aren't really good enough IMO. What about my friends livelihood? Are all the smoke haters and the government going to club together and give her a new business when she has to close through this new policy?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's not about segregation, it's about providing a smoking area for the smokers that actually works (in that it does not allow smoke to float over to the non-smoking bit) so that everyone can enjoy the same pub.

As I have said before, this is not prosecution or prejudice, as a lot of people seem to be making out. This about an activity that is extremely harmful to the health.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:rofl: :rofl: pot kettel blah blah blah.

I'm saying have non and smoking pubs. You're saying non only. Can you please tell me where you learned your definition of 'selfish'? :dozey:

Mods - where's the ****er smilie gone? :confused:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So a smoking pub and a non smoking pub gives you the choice of where you go :erm:

Why is it then that the point raised here by some is "i must be allowed to go in the smoking pub then complain because there are smokers in it" :erm:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:idea:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Is it not obvious? :dunce: What if my favourite bars become smoking places? I won't be able to go to them then. I don't want my choice of bars to be restricted because I want to enjoy good health.
If smoking is banned in all public places then your friend's business won't lose out to any other bars. However, were she to provide a smoking room, then she could cater for everyone. And to be honest, whilst I am not suggesting that your friend's livelihood is not important, there are other factors such as health that need to be considered.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But it's the owners pub to do with how they want not yours.

You will all be demanding they don't smoke in there own homes next in case the smoke goes up the chimney and you inhale it in the street.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Someone gets it...:clap: :clap: :clap:

Yes it is hers. It's her home too. She bought the place freehold. The ban is tantamount to being told what she can and can't do in her own home.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I think plenty of us get it OB, it's just we don't think the fact that a particular individual owns a place confers automatic right for them to decide what goes on in that place, especially when you wish to invite the public in.

The Law already places huge restrictions on what she can do in her premises, covering health and safety, treatment of staff, permitted hours of serving alcohol, minimum age of customers buying the alcohol ... the argument that it's her place, so she should decide, really doesn't stand up.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

And you will be suggesting next that I allow smokers into my house to smoke as much as they want because otherwise they do not have FREE CHOICE about where they smoke.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

:rofl: :LOL:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Gah, this is pretty pointless now, we're getting about as far as a rhino in sinking sand, I have reasons for preferring none smoking, you have yours for smoking.

One other thing I'd add is that a ban would stop younger people from starting to smoke. I've got freinds who only started smoking when out in town because they thought it made them look good, and now they'r smoking 20+/day. Im fairly sure they wouldn't be smoking now if the places in town hadn't allowed it.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No because its your house to do as you wish. I am not saying you have to allow them in i am saying that you have the right to say they can or cannot. The owner of the pub should have the same right. I have the choice of where i drink smoking or none smoking. I am i present not forced to enter the smoking pub.
__________________


:LOL: like the ban on drugs stop's them getting hooked on drugs :erm: There are more on drugs now than there ever was

Re: smoking and the pub
 

INVITE!!!!! So you enter at your own will!!!! Not force!!!!!! :rolleyes:

So you think it's OK to risk her business over a LEGAL activity, when there are other options? Maybe if you ran your own business and our wonderful govenment puts a law in place that send your business that you keep your family on t1ts up, and you might see it differently.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That is already not the case, as I said in answer to OB above. The landlord has no choice but to obey laws outlawing sale of alcohol to under 18s. The landlord has no choice over provision of adequate fire escapes and firefighting equipment. The landlord has no choice but to take out adequate pubilc liability insurance.

There are a whole raft of legal restrictions on what the landlord can do, because the moment they open the doors to the public, it is not simply their house, it is a public house, and the law has a lot to say on matters of pubilc health and safety - which is exactly what the smoking issue is.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

If the majority of people support your view then the pub will be non-smoking. Free market capitalism is the best legistlator you could ever want/need.

Does strike me as being a tad selfish too. As Bill said, its their bar, not yours.

I am really not in favour of the government dictating to everyone what they can or can't do. Let the people decide for themselves what they want to do.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Would you consider it reasonable to abandon all fire safety regs that apply to pubilc buildings and then leave the punters the free choice over whether they spend their evening in a fire escape or non-fire escape pub? There is absolutely no difference. When the health risks are considered great enough, we legislate to enforce minimum standards. It applies to alcohol drinking, fire safety, road safety, and soon, not before time, smoking.

I think the English plans to go half way are silly and more likely to pose a risk to her business than the law in Ireland, and (soon) in Scotland, where an outright ban will put everyone on a level playing field. If I were her, I'd accept the way this is going and lobby for an outright ban. Failing that, I'd be looking for ways to diversify and protect my profits. I don't wish bankruptcy on anyone, but this is not the first time the law has changed to promote health and safety and it won't be the last.
__________________

Free market capitalism has never been, and will never be, a good legislator in matters of health and safety.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Why not go the whole hog then and ban supermarkets etc from selling fags at all? :rolleyes:



Why?? Why are they silly? What's wrong with non and smoking establishments?

How? Pray, tell?

It's a bar and restaurant, a licensed building which will prove almost impossible to delicense. What do you suggest she diversify into?? :rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well the poodle and his spin doctors have ensured that i will never vote for his party again. They have to do something to try and get the public on there side after the fiasco of the last few years and this is one way the other was fox hunting and they ballsed that up as well. It just goes to show what a bunch of idiots are running this country when they cannot make a decision. Now if Bush had told him to do it then it would have been done stright away :LOL:
__________________

Make it a private smokers club :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

There is no doubt that if tobacco were discovered today, it would be illegal. As it is, far too many people are already hooked on it to simply criminalise it overnight. 20 years ago, one in three people smoked and you couldn't talk seriously about banning it in public. Now it's one in four and the proposal is on the table. That, in my view, is good progress. Perhaps one day, another 10 years from now, we can consider restricting the sale of tobacco, and eventually eliminate it altogether. Banning supermarkets from selling it is a very good idea imo. :tu:

Because, as you have already pointed out, banning some and not others puts the 'banned' establishments at a competitive disadvantage. Banning all of them levels the playing field. If you can't smoke anywhere, it can't influence your choice of where to go for the evening, can it?

Described above.

If I knew the answer to that, I'd be running my own business and not selling my soul to a multinational corporation. :p: But the very fact that your friend has the drive and talent to buy and run her own place suggests that you should maybe have more confidence in her ability to grow her business despite the inconvenience of new health and safety laws.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

How???

Until you answer my first question, I really don't get your logic on this bit either.



<snip>[/quote]

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Looks like the Cabinet has decided what it wants to do after all:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi....stm?display=1

Re: smoking and the pub
 

In other words you want everything your way.

I would presume that your favourite pubs are already no smoking establishments otherwise you wouldn't be going to them. Why should they suddenly change and allow smoking?

If pubs were given the choice as to whether they are smoking or no smoking establishments then the landlord/owner will take a commercial decision as to which it should be. If they choose to be smoking allowed pubs then surely that tells you something. It means that the majority of customers want to be able to smoke there and the landlord/owner thinks that he will lose more money if he chooses to ban smoking than if he is to allow smoking.

It would lose out if the regulars decided to stay at home where they can drink and smoke instead of sitting in a non smoking pub which has lost its atmosphere.

Health is important but smoking is not the only health issue where pubs are concerned. Just look at any hospital A&E department on Friday and Saturday night and you will find it is their busiest time of the week. It is the effects of alcohol that causes most of this increase in patients, not smoking, and some of those patients may not have had a single drink, just suffered because of the ones that have. Maybe they should ban the sale of alcohol in pubs to remove those health issues. You can avoid the risks from passive smoking by taking the decision not to go into places that allow smoking. Avoiding being a casualty at the hands of someone who has consumed too much alcohol is harder to do.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

So the poodle has b***s after all :) well done on a democratic decision :clap::clap::clap:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Well, 25% of people smoke, so that's a large chunk of the pub-going population that is automatically going to go only to a smoking pub if they want an evening out. You're not going to go to Wetherspoons are you, they serve food so you can't smoke there, even if you don't plan to order food yourself.

Add to that a proportion of non-smokers who don't mind too much about smoke, certainly not enough to want to leave their smoking friends out of the group on a night out, and the number of people in the city centre on a Friday night who are only going to choose among the smoking pubs grows further. The non-smoking establishments can do nothing to attract back this sizeable chunk of their potential clientele without stopping serving food.

The only way for a ban to be commercially fair is for it to be a universal ban - hopefully my reply above is clearer now?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Good point. :smokin: ;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Pointless debate ultimately. Smokers are usually selfish people who only think about themselves, which is why they can't understand the non-smoker's viewpoint.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I am a non smoker and i can see both view points. I see it as a Government restricting even more of my rights and making a complete and utter balls up of anything they do. I am happy to make a choice of which pub or club i give my well earned cash to.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nice sweeping generalisation there Si. ;)

How about this...

;)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nice veiwpoint. Very sharp

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Equally, some of the non smokers in this thread are selfish people who not only want everything their way but want to restrict a person who wants to run a pub which allows smoking from having such an establishment. I can understand a non smoker wanting to be able to have a night out in a smoke free atmosphere but cannot understand how they can want to deny the existance of establishments which cater for the smoker.

If you want to eat Chinese food you go to a Chinese restaurant.
If you want to eat Indian food you go to an Indian restaurant.
If you want to go to a smoke free pub then you go to one that has a ban on smoking.
If you want to go to a pub that allows smoking you go to one that allows it.

Freedom of choice is what matters.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

My not smoking cannot possible harm any smoker. Any smoker's smoke is dangerous to me and removes my choice not to smoke. I am not against sealed smoking rooms but I will always be against smoking in public areas for this reason.
I have had to treat people who have been diagnosed with lung cancer from passive smoking and their comments are usually around the "it's not fair" angle.

Smokers. It is NOT fair to smoke in public. You are free to smoke on your own or with like minded associates but you should not be permitted to damage other innocent people's lives. If that takes legislation to enforce then so be it. It is not much different to the protection the law proffers to assaulting others. Smoking is an indirect of assault in my opinion.

I welcome this legislation but agree with Chris T that it should be a blanket ban.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Nonsmokers outlook on this is .

Whats yours is mine. But whats mine is my own and you cannot have it.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Sorry but I think everything that's needed to be said from a non-smoking viewpoint as already been stated. Obviously not ALL smokers are selfish people but I feel smoking in front of others is a very selfish act. And as stated above, not smoking doesn't harm anyone, so reversing my comments as Neil did above, doesn't hold water with me. Just my opinion of course :)

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I''d be glad when they bring in the smoking ban in the workplace, because all the jobs I have done smokers were alound to have a smoke break of 5mins every hour, and they seldom took less than 15mins. and if you are a non-smoker you have to carry on working. (Smokers had to make up time but never did because the boos smoked)
My last job they had banned smoking on site throughout the company, they had to smoke at the main gate (this brought up new problems because of the amout of fag butts lying in the road, they put in buckets of sand but they filled with cig boxes and wrappers, but they threw unstubbed buts into it and set it on fire.)

I personally feel that smoking should be banned in all public places even if they don't sell food (the Harvey Centre were I live is smoke free unless you smoke in the two cafes, but people smoke regardless antwhere in there ignoring the no smoking signs and PA system.) and have all workpaces smoke free goes without question/

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Here we go Again the government wimping out than things get hard. :mad: think god they where not in charge during ww2.

Hewitt backs off on smoking ban after Cabinet revolt

Cabinet agrees England smoke ban

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I will post some more points in here when I have time but for now does anyone know if Prison will be classed as a public place and will smoking be banned there if not somewhat double standards spring to mind.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Thay never really think stuff like this Through the Whole thing about where the ban will be is just stupid. :rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Since when is making money more important than health? I am sure the landlord would make more money if he watered his drinks down with toilet water but that doesn't make it ok does it!

Pub by the way, is short for public house. Therefore the landlord is duty bound to provide for the public, and to work in the interests of the health of the public. It is not just down to the landlord what he does on his premises, as a publican he has to consider health and safety issues.

As I have said before, freedom of choice is not what is at stake here. Chris T made a very good point when he said that were tobacco to be discovered today, it would be banned. It is a high risk substance. Just because it is currently legal to smoke, doesn't take away from this point. Freedom of choice is what allows gay and straight bars to exist, or live music and jukebox pubs to exist.
The effects of smoking are not usually ones that result in you being taken to casualty, that's all. And the patients you are talking about probably need stitches cos they have been bottled, or similar. The victims of smoking are probably, (awfully and tragically) over on the terminal ward, or in a hospice, dying of cancer. It's a terrible state of affairs.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

If stopping smoking in pubs was a sound commercial decision then why haven't more landlords voluntarily banned in. It's a strange situation where, say, the majority of customers may not mind smoking in the pub but where the state is denying this. The landlord should be free to decide on an individual basis in consultation with her/his customers.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

good to see you back Simon. I think that's too much of a generalisation - perhaps the truth is smokers are either doing it because they have an addition or because they dont care about the health issues.

what I fail to understand though is why it's so important to be able to go out and smoke during your evening in the pub unless you're addicted. obviously many smokers know their hobby is unpleasant for non smokers but they still choose to do it when non smokers are within breathing distance.
__________________

looks like someone made my point better than I did!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What about the staff that work in the pubs? Should they not have a say too? Sorry but having been in a number of pubs and clubs where you end up having to scrub the stale cigarette odour off you as you leave I'm in favour of a blanket ban of smoking inside pubs/ clubs/ restaurants etc. Unfortunately I can't see it happening until someone in the government gets a spine :(
There is waaay too much money and therefor influence in the cigarette and alcohol industry for any form of controls to be legislated for properly.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Agree with you on the staffing point. But leaving it down to an individual pub by pub decision may mean that some pubs would become smoke free while others continue as before. Staff would then have a choice over which environment to work in.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

you cant 'consult your customers' over an issue like this as your customers are every changing unless you suggest a pub is forced to put it to a customer ballot periodically.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

A pub by the river a few miles away (in the middle of nowhere) was done up at great expense a couple of years ago, since when they have had a total smoking ban throughout the pub. They have a good reputation for food and are still going strong dispite having a large part of their trade as summer river users!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Seriously Clarie, don't post clap trap like that, it only serves to make you look either ill informed or ignorant You haven't got a clue have you? I used to be a landlady. As a land lady, BII qualified and well aware of my legal H&S 'duties' to the public, I can actually pick and choose who I provide for. If I don't like the look of someone, I can bar them, and they would not win a case in court to overturn that. A pub is one place where the customer is certainly not always right.
__________________

Again, no-one is FORCED to work in a pub. If you don't like the conditions of a job, then you don't apply.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

No, but I'm sure a consultation period over a period of time would successfully canvass the opinion of the regulars whilst getting a representative view of everyone else.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

That's pretty weak, OB. Your right as a landlady to bar someone you don't like does not in any way detract from the status of your establishment as a public house. If you were to enforce your right to pick and choose your clientele to any significant degree, you wouldn't be a pub, you would be a private members club, and they have different licencing terms.

You might be able to pick and choose your clientele, but you cannot pick and choose which aspects of health and safety law you uphold, even if you think they make trading more difficult. This new Law is being framed in health and safety terms.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Can anybody who is wholly opposed to smoking in pubs please, hand on heart, say that they never make non-essential trips in their cars. Or always look at the alternatives to cars when planning trips? Only those who answer yes to these questions (honestly), can unhypocritically support the ban on smoking in pubs (provided of course they are not damaging peoples health in other ways).

Why are we not looking at banning smoking around children in any environment, be it at home or in the car. This is more important as children can not always make a choice about the environment they are in whereas adults, generally, can. (and presumably would be more susceptible to the effects of smoke). This, of course will not happen as it would be very difficult to enforce. To me, the government banning smoking in pubs/public places makes it look like it is doing something about public health, but ultimately, as the watered down version has shown, is pretty toothless.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I was merely pointing out what Clarie posted was factually incorrect. Weak or not, I don't care. At least it's correct. :rolleyes:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It is still the same clap trap coming from the no smoking brigade who want to ban every place that doesn't fit in with their ideas. Yes, smoking is a bad habit that can affect your health and that of others who breathe the smoke. Yes, I agree that many places and public transport should be able to have a smoking ban. What I don't agree with is that smokers should be discriminated against which is what a total ban would mean.

Freedom of choice is the major issue here. Smokers should be catered for just the same as non smokers. There is nothing wrong in my eyes with the owner of a pub, restaurant, shop or business deciding that he wants to cater for smokers. By all means bring in legislation that forces the owner of a smoking establishment to display very prominent signs at all entrances which state that it is an establishment that allows smoking. Those who want a smoke free atmosphere can then choose whether to enter or not or whether they want to work there. Who is being harmed other than the ones who choose of their own free will to enter the premises.

Chris T has just said . What if all the establishments that wanted to allow smoking decided to become private members clubs? Would there still be an objection from non-smokers and on what grounds?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Correct!

A public house is open to the public,
it doesn't mean you can enter (of your own free choice) and dictate how someone runs their business.

If you don't like places were people smoke, don't go there!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I would like to see a mix of both smoking and non smoking establishments. Problem is the majority of publicans are convinced they would lose out were they to ban smoking. So no one will stick their neck out and ban smoking.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I see this as a public health issue. The preventable death and illness caused by smoking is far in excess of that caused by anything else. Frankly, I think tobacco use should be illegal. I know what I'm talking about - I am still witnessing the fallout caused by the death of a close relative from smoking-induced lung cancer some 20 years ago. (She was a barmaid, incidentally). It is *not* merely a personal choice when you indulge in an activity that you are fully aware is likely to kill you and leave your family and friends to pick up the pieces. It is irresponsible selfishness of the highest order.

The evidence from Ireland and from New York is that one in 12 smokers have already given up the habit as a direct result of the blanket ban that has been imposed in those places. That means there's still a long way to go, but it's a start.

What I would like to see is a progressive tightening of laws regulating smoking so that it becomes increasingly difficult to do it anywhere other than in a private house and is eventually outlawed altogether.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

1 in 3 people suffer from fallout of death by cancer Chris....I personally have had three members of family die of lung cancer.

Yes, that's all well and good, but you didn't answer the question -

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Sorry, I thought that I made my position pretty clear. Smoking should be illegal. As a step along the road towards making it illegal, I think it should be made as difficult as possible for anybody to smoke. That means a total, outright public ban, as has been introduced in Ireland, New York and (next year) in Scotland.

So yes, if it's not blindingly obvious already, I object to the idea of pubs converting to private members clubs to get round the ban, on the grounds that I think the proposed exemption for private clubs is itself ridiculous.
__________________

Which only makes your dogged support of the habit all the more difficult to understand. :confused: :(

Re: smoking and the pub
 

It's a habit, and an addiction. One which I do not have the will to give up yet.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Or, Lippy to turn it round...

A public house is open to the public,
it doesn't mean you can enter (of your own free choice) and dictate how someone runs their business.

If you don't like smoke free places were people don't smoke, don't go there!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I can understand that, OB - I've been pestering my dad to give up for as long as I can remember. He's stopped a couple of times but always gone back eventually.

But why put up such a determined defence of the freedom to smoke?

Re: smoking and the pub
 

But many activities are likely to kill you. Driving a car, eating the wrong types of food, obesity and lack of exercise, etc. Where do you draw the line? I think we have to let people make up their minds as to the activities they engage in.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Why not? My main argument is for the freedom of those that run the businesses to choose whether they allow smoking on their own property. Property that the general public have a choice of whether the visit or not.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You're right about the impact on A&E depts regarding drinking. I have spent many Saturday nights sewing up drunkard's heads and other parts; however don't underestimate the level of illness that smoking brings to A&E. Asthma, emphysema, bronchitis, pneumonia, COPD etc etc. We are very busy with many many respiratory diseases and a large proportional of them are smoking related.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Out of our full team of 8 Domino players only 3 smoke (it was 4 but one has recently stopped, of the rest only one has never smoked). Of the Crib team there is only 3 of the 8 as well (this time 2 have never smoked). These are games that are frequently played by older persons and dyed in the wool pub users and, when playing against non smokers they tend to cut down on the numbers smoked.

I suspect there would be fewer problems than feared were smoking to be banned. (they would all play Aunt Sally instead) :D

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I understand that too. But in this case, there's an irreconcilable difference between the commercial pressures faced by publicans and the social and economic cost of smoking. This whole debate has been about trying to establish which takes priority over which*. I don't expect this thread will conclude with one side or the other changing their minds, but I don't mind admitting that I'm very pleased the anti-smoking lobby appears to be winning the argument at Whitehall.

* BBKing-stylee footnote: There has also been a fair bit of 'bah! you just want everything your own way!' but I don't think that should detract from the issues that are genuinely at the centre of this.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I am yet to hear what I am actually wrong about in what I said...landlords do have to work in the interest in health and safety issues. If you, as a landlady didn't, then I am eternally grateful I didn't wander into your pub. (Although sounds like I might have been refused service anyway :erm: ).
Sorry to hear about your family. As Chris T said, it makes it harder to understand why you defend the habit so much.
I agree to a point. But as has been stated, most of the activities you mention do not have an effect on other people. The one that does, driving a car, well I imagine as soon as it becomes readily possible for people to use safer fuels, they will. At the moment it isn't widely available.

I am yet to hear a good argument for why there can't be sealed rooms made available for smokers in all pubs and bars.

I am happy to announce my locals all serve food!

Re: smoking and the pub
 

You're definition of what a public house is and what it's oblged to do - The landlord has to abide by health and safety laws. And that's all - they're not bound to provide anything else for the 'public' at all.

Did you actually read my post? I'm fully trained as a licensee, and always passed any Health and Safety inspections I had with no issues. But all non-smokers were barred... :rolleyes: :dozey:

Re: smoking and the pub
 

I fully appreciate what the affects of smoking and passive smoking may be. Most deaths,around 75%, that may be a result of smoking and passive smoking in this country are in the over 65 year old category and we should hopefully see a reduction in line with the percentage of the population being smokers in years to come. One of the problems with a total ban on smoking in all public places including all pubs is that smokers may choose to stay at home where they can smoke and put other members of their family, particularly their children, at more risk.

The problem with banning smoking on health issues because it may be the single pursuit that causes most premature deaths is that something else takes it place as the highest killer. That may be alcohol so do we then ban alcohol from all public places and pubs then only serve non-alcoholic drinks?

Many things in life pose a risk to your health and we cannot ban them all. What we can do is choose whether to participate or not. No one is forcing people to smoke or be in a smoky environment, traffic fumes excepted.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

a suppose there is a benefit in having (some of these) people in pubs smoking - it keeps them away from being at home smoking in front of their kids.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

What you are talking about is like a private members' club. Otherwise, I can't imagine a pub getting very far if they weren't providing for the public...
Yes I did read your post. I didn't mean I would be banned as a non-smoker. I meant that if you didn't like the look of me I might be banned.

I am sure you did pass all of your health and safety inspections I am not disputing that. What I am saying is that smoking is a health issue that should be taken into account.

Re: smoking and the pub
 

Ian, that has to be one of the most thoroughly illogical things I have read on this forum in quite some time. If we decide not to act on something because it may in the future mean we have to act on something else, then we might as well tear up every piece of health and safety legislation ever passed in this country!

I'm not afraid to allow alcohol to come under the spotlight at some point in the future - personally I don't think it requires a ban; unlike smoking, the dangers of alcohol have been understood for millennia and by and large we cope with them pretty well. Smoking, on the other hand, has been understood to be dangerous for something like 50 years at most and so in historical terms we are still in the very early stages of reversing the tide of addiction.

Plus, of course, smoking is not only slightly more injurious to health than alcohol, it is a whole order of magnitude worse. If health and safety issues continue to extend at their current rate, no-one will be looking for a ban on alcohol (whose sale and consumption, by the way, is currently *more* restrictive than tobacco) any time this century.