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Bex 02-07-2004 14:41
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird
I'm trying really hard not to cry after reading that article...I'm still pro-choice, but the legal limit on how far to term you can go (ie 24 weeks) needs to be greatly reduced.... :(
it is horrid. at uni i studied a course on "matters of life and death" the thrid year module was about capital punishment etc, and it also included abortion. we had to sit and listen to how they do later stage abortions (ie after the 24weeks) and it was awful. i saw a breif prgramme on it.... and it really wasn't pleasent. now that made me cry

orangebird 02-07-2004 14:42
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
It made me feel sick. Sorry, I should have prefaced it with a warning
S'ok - I read it a little while ago in another paper, so I knew what was coming. I can't help but wonder what kind of people are the staff at that hospital who just let the baby (that survived for three days) lay there and die... sick/weak/inhumane b8stards who don't deserve the jobs they have IMO. :(

Quote:
Thats how Mandy and I feel.
:tu:

Bex 02-07-2004 14:45
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird
S'ok - I read it a little while ago in another paper, so I knew what was coming. I can't help but wonder what kind of people are the staff at that hospital who just let the baby (that survived for three days) lay there and die... sick/weak/inhumane b8stards who don't deserve the jobs they have IMO. :(
but what if the mother refused to let them treat the child...... it prolly would have taken a while to get a court to say ya or nay on whether they could intervene.

having an abortion is one thing, but i dont know how the mother could have lived knowing the child was born alive but not doing anything to help it

orangebird 02-07-2004 14:53
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bex
but what if the mother refused to let them treat the child...... it prolly would have taken a while to get a court to say ya or nay on whether they could intervene.

having an abortion is one thing, but i dont know how the mother could have lived knowing the child was born alive but not doing anything to help it

That's assuming the mother knew this has happened. Either way Bexy, they allowed a baby to die. These new laws are more than welcome.

Bex 02-07-2004 14:59
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird
That's assuming the mother knew this has happened. Either way Bexy, they allowed a baby to die. These new laws are more than welcome.
i'm not disputing that they were not wrong to let it happen. but i think to a certain degree the hands of the medical profession are tied. i read an article on a women who insisted on having a home birth but the baby was breach. midwives weren't legally allowed to do anything, otherwise they would be charged, but they had to stand and watch, luckily the women came to her senses. but it illustrates that maybe the laws are too rigid

orangebird 02-07-2004 15:08
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bex
i'm not disputing that they were not wrong to let it happen. but i think to a certain degree the hands of the medical profession are tied. i read an article on a women who insisted on having a home birth but the baby was breach. midwives weren't legally allowed to do anything, otherwise they would be charged, but they had to stand and watch, luckily the women came to her senses. but it illustrates that maybe the laws are too rigid
But i'd break the law to save a baby's life....I can't believe there are people out there who wouldn't...

Nemesis 02-07-2004 15:09
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
The Law is an ass ......

Bex 02-07-2004 15:12
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
The Law is an ass ......
care to elaborate... or do you mean in general?

Nemesis 02-07-2004 15:19
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
There have been many changes in the law that IMO, have been nothing more than PC weilding it's stupidly ugly head again.

Where has the common sense of this country/world actually gone. The politics and Laws now seem to be nothing more than a big popularity contest trying to score inexplicably poor points off each other.

The Law doesn't really protect the innocent, the children, the downtrodden, because at every turn there is some crappy get out clause that protects those that committed the crime or did the unthinkable.

It seems that only with public pressure do things actually turn out for the good.

I say again ... The Law is an ass.

Bex 02-07-2004 15:21
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nemesis
There have been many changes in the law that IMO, have been nothing more than PC weilding it's stupidly ugly head again.

Where has the common sense of this country/world actually gone. The politics and Laws now seem to be nothing more than a big popularity contest trying to score inexplicably poor points off each other.

The Law doesn't really protect the innocent, the children, the downtrodden, because at every turn there is some crappy get out clause that protects those that committed the crime or did the unthinkable.

It seems that only with public pressure do things actually turn out for the good.

I say again ... The Law is an ass.
i agree. but im not entirely sure that public pressure actually has any influence. they just invent another clause to make it seem as though they have changed it

SMHarman 02-07-2004 15:43
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangebird
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bex
i'm not disputing that they were not wrong to let it happen. but i think to a certain degree the hands of the medical profession are tied. i read an article on a women who insisted on having a home birth but the baby was breach. midwives weren't legally allowed to do anything, otherwise they would be charged, but they had to stand and watch, luckily the women came to her senses. but it illustrates that maybe the laws are too rigid
But i'd break the law to save a baby's life....I can't believe there are people out there who wouldn't...
I think she came to her senses a little too late and the baby died? She then discovered she was having twins (what no ultrasound or heart beat monitor spotted this?) and the second baby was delivered by c section as she was exhausted from being in labour for over 24 hours at that point.

This discussion formum indicates that too.

Re: breaking the law to save the babys life, its a bit difficult when you also have the father there who was also insistent that intervention would not occur, in line with his wifes wishes.

You also have the huge liability problem that if a disabled baby survives and the hospitaly you are attached to is sued, then you are on your own for your intervention, not insurance anything. Fancy losing your house to pay for the 24hr care of a baby the mother was to dumb to go to hospital to have delivered. While hospitals and horizontal delivery are sub optimal, the ability to intervene if problems arise makes home birth crazy IMHO.

Bex 08-07-2004 08:49
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
after watching one of the morning programmes this morning.... think it was BBC1 but hey it was 7am i wasn't awake...... they were discussing some of the issues around the scan photos and whether a change in the when an abortion can happen will change.....
the gov are suggestion a change from 24weeks.. to 22weeks...

i don't see the point in changing it if it is only going to be a case of 2weeks... but what does everyone else think?

(apologise for the waffle still half a sleep)

dr wadd 08-07-2004 08:54
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bex
after watching one of the morning programmes this morning.... think it was BBC1 but hey it was 7am i wasn't awake...... they were discussing some of the issues around the scan photos and whether a change in the when an abortion can happen will change.....
the gov are suggestion a change from 24weeks.. to 22weeks...

i don't see the point in changing it if it is only going to be a case of 2weeks... but what does everyone else think?

(apologise for the waffle still half a sleep)
I think the government on jumping on an emotive bandwagon without any valid scientific evidence. All those photographs show is that the developing child exhibits behaviour that has a visual parallel to the behaviour of a born child. There is no evidence whatsoever as to the underlying cause for that motion. I can take a corpse and rig it up to electrical signals to get it to move around, it doesn`t mean that the corpse is suddenly self aware.

Just because an unborn child might make a facial expression that approximates smiling doesn`t it doesn`t follow that it is an emotional response indicative of some form of awareness.

Bex 08-07-2004 09:00
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr wadd
<snip>Just because an unborn child might make a facial expression that approximates smiling doesn`t it doesn`t follow that it is an emotional response indicative of some form of awareness.
so you think that the vital element is that the foetus would need to be self aware?

dr wadd 08-07-2004 09:12
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bex
so you think that the vital element is that the foetus would need to be self aware?
Indeed, I make a very strict distinction between the concepts of biological function and sentience when it comes to the definition of "life". Sentience is more important to be than the fact that cells are able to metabolise and divide.

SMHarman 08-07-2004 09:17
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bex
after watching one of the morning programmes this morning.... think it was BBC1 but hey it was 7am i wasn't awake...... they were discussing some of the issues around the scan photos and whether a change in the when an abortion can happen will change.....
the gov are suggestion a change from 24weeks.. to 22weeks...

i don't see the point in changing it if it is only going to be a case of 2weeks... but what does everyone else think?

(apologise for the waffle still half a sleep)
A foetus delivered at 23-24 weeks is technically viable and can be sustaned on life support etc just like a preme at say 30 weeks. Top boffins and scientists don't feel that is the case or that it is justified to do so at 22 weeks or sooner.

I think thats the case for the two week change.

These scans while fascinating, at the moment need a body of scientific evidence behind them before further change is proposed, valid scientific study needs replication and peer review.

Reducing the time frame, while not a problem for many as most unwanted pregnancies are terminated before wk 12, could cause problems with terminations decided for medical reasons such as downs (and whether you should terminate a downs baby is a whole new thread), but with the poor state of NHS scanning*, testing and scheduling (speaking from experience) such changes in the law could cause problems.

* in East Herts the 12 week dating scans are running so far behind schedule they are occurring at 16 weeks. This means problems found through scanning will be discovered a month late.

kronas 31-07-2004 14:33
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
i thought i would put this here....

new guidelines on helping under 16 year olds with abortion have come under fire from anti abortionists.

the new rules are to allow under 16s to seek abortions without the parental knowledge if the teen wishes this.

Quote:
.It's vital young people feel confident enough to approach health professionals and receive the information and treatment they need.

Anne Weyman
Family Planning Association chief exec

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3941573.stm

personally i back the plan, most parents would 'kick off' knowing their 'inoccent teen' was pregnant.

but in some cases there maybe future regrets about the abortion.

but i can see the point of view from the governments proposals, better to speak to someone whos a proffesional rather than leave it untill its too late.

there is also the potential stress that can be caused on the child because the parents are levyng a heavy amount of pressure on the child because of her actions.

timewarrior2001 31-07-2004 14:54
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
I too welcome this, but the teenagers also need more information of the hazards of jumping in the sack with whoever they happen to feel like.

This should not be used an another excuse to sleep around and forget the consequences.

Maggy 31-07-2004 15:05
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by timewarrior2001
I too welcome this, but the teenagers also need more information of the hazards of jumping in the sack with whoever they happen to feel like.

This should not be used an another excuse to sleep around and forget the consequences.
Precisely! Also if parents are going to be cut out of the loop then MORE rigerous councelling should be on offer in case the girl has problem coping mentally in the future.Not leaving it to parents who know nothing about the situation to have to deal with phsychological problems later.

I'm also hoping this is not just a way for the government to find a way to cut the teenage mothers statistics at the expense of the teenagers.

greencreeper 31-07-2004 22:12
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
I got about 7 pages into this thread and I felt the will to live slowly ebbing from me, so I skipped the rest of the thread. Forgive me if I make points already raised.

Aside from an assortment of related but off topic issues, you all seem to be grappling with the weight of rights - does a pregnant teenager's right to confidentiality outweight that of her parents' right to know that she is pregnant and maybe considering an abortion? There are certain medical treatments and conditions, such as sexual health and abortion, that must have absolute confidentiality. Why? Well without confidentiality it makes it less likely that the patient will seek medical help or (worse) professional medical help, possibily endangering their life.

Lisa finds herself pregnant after a one night stand. She views her parents as being very strict and she believes that they would disown her if she admitted to her condition. She's a teenager - she's scared and feeling very much alone, and not thinking rationally. Maybe her parents would understand but that's irrelevant because Lisa firmly believes that they won't. Try and imagine how frightened and alone she feels. Now if the law said that the hospital had to tell her parents before she could have an abortion, do you think Lisa would go for an abortion? Certainly not. The best outcome is that she hides the pregnancy and dumps the baby in a bin. She could go to a midwife or struck-off doctor for an abortion, but that costs money she doesn't have. Online she discovers instructions on how to abort a fetus using a knitting needle or water squirted into the uterus. Thinking that the needle might be risky (and she's right - she could easily pierce the uterine wall and bleed to death or leave herself infertile) Lisa plumps for the water option. Her parents find her dead in bed next morning because the water method forced air into Lisa's bloodstream. Of course her tearful parents will say that Lisa could have come to them and they can't understand it. They won't question the relationship they had with their daughter - a relationship that left Lisa feeling she had no option but to attempt a DIY abortion.

I think parents should also be mindful of the fact that their children spend more time at school than at home. It's understandable that their children are going to raise issues with teachers first and parents (possibly) second.

I do believe that parents should know because anyone after having an abortion needs support and help, and even more so if they decide to keep the baby. But I think pregnant teenagers should be encouraged to talk to their parents, perhaps in a supported environment, and not forced to by law. Confidentiality must be guaranteed.

kronas 01-08-2004 01:02
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greencreeper
I do believe that parents should know because anyone after having an abortion needs support and help, and even more so if they decide to keep the baby. But I think pregnant teenagers should be encouraged to talk to their parents, perhaps in a supported environment, and not forced to by law. Confidentiality must be guaranteed.
in my life experiance i have not come across one parent who would even imagine their teenager being pregnant.

its a fact of life the majority of parents would be attacking their kids aggressively telling them and putting them in a harmful situation such as verbal and possibly physical punshment for their sins.

im afraid your point carries too many iffs or buts, ima aperson who likes to play it safe.

so this is why i back the governments decision to allow under 16 year olds the oppertunity to not tell their parents, why do you think they are fearful, they know/think the parents possible reaction.

this would be detremental to both the youngster and the foetus.

if support and advice is excellently maintained then they should push ahead with this.

greencreeper 01-08-2004 01:38
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kronas
in my life experiance i have not come across one parent who would even imagine their teenager being pregnant.

its a fact of life the majority of parents would be attacking their kids aggressively telling them and putting them in a harmful situation such as verbal and possibly physical punshment for their sins.

im afraid your point carries too many iffs or buts, ima aperson who likes to play it safe.

so this is why i back the governments decision to allow under 16 year olds the oppertunity to not tell their parents, why do you think they are fearful, they know/think the parents possible reaction.

this would be detremental to both the youngster and the foetus.

if support and advice is excellently maintained then they should push ahead with this.
You've not said anything significantly different from what I said.

Like I said, I do believe that parents should know but that doesn't mean I don't support the government (I'd never support the government but that's a different issue :) ) nor does it mean that I'm ignorant of the fact that many parents would go ape on discovering their children are sexuality active, let alone pregnant. I was simply stating that an abortion requires lots of emotional support and that ideally parents should be the ones to give it, not 3rd party agencies. Teenagers should be encouraged to talk to their parents and supported in doing so, but they certainly shouldn't be forced.

Bare in mind that a teenager's assessment of their parents' attitudes and ability to deal with the news, won't always be accurate.

Stuart 01-08-2004 02:16
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by greencreeper
I got about 7 pages into this thread and I felt the will to live slowly ebbing from me, so I skipped the rest of the thread. Forgive me if I make points already raised.

Aside from an assortment of related but off topic issues, you all seem to be grappling with the weight of rights - does a pregnant teenager's right to confidentiality outweight that of her parents' right to know that she is pregnant and maybe considering an abortion? There are certain medical treatments and conditions, such as sexual health and abortion, that must have absolute confidentiality. Why? Well without confidentiality it makes it less likely that the patient will seek medical help or (worse) professional medical help, possibily endangering their life.

Lisa finds herself pregnant after a one night stand. She views her parents as being very strict and she believes that they would disown her if she admitted to her condition. She's a teenager - she's scared and feeling very much alone, and not thinking rationally. Maybe her parents would understand but that's irrelevant because Lisa firmly believes that they won't. Try and imagine how frightened and alone she feels. Now if the law said that the hospital had to tell her parents before she could have an abortion, do you think Lisa would go for an abortion? Certainly not. The best outcome is that she hides the pregnancy and dumps the baby in a bin. She could go to a midwife or struck-off doctor for an abortion, but that costs money she doesn't have. Online she discovers instructions on how to abort a fetus using a knitting needle or water squirted into the uterus. Thinking that the needle might be risky (and she's right - she could easily pierce the uterine wall and bleed to death or leave herself infertile) Lisa plumps for the water option. Her parents find her dead in bed next morning because the water method forced air into Lisa's bloodstream. Of course her tearful parents will say that Lisa could have come to them and they can't understand it. They won't question the relationship they had with their daughter - a relationship that left Lisa feeling she had no option but to attempt a DIY abortion.

I think parents should also be mindful of the fact that their children spend more time at school than at home. It's understandable that their children are going to raise issues with teachers first and parents (possibly) second.

I do believe that parents should know because anyone after having an abortion needs support and help, and even more so if they decide to keep the baby. But I think pregnant teenagers should be encouraged to talk to their parents, perhaps in a supported environment, and not forced to by law. Confidentiality must be guaranteed.
Agreed. I already repped you, but I wanted to make the point in public.

Paul 17-11-2004 08:54
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
The 14 year old girl in question is now pregnant again (and says she wants to keep it this time) :rolleyes:

Stuart 17-11-2004 09:13
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
OK, I think this girl needs to be taught to use Condoms...

orangebird 17-11-2004 09:22
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
FFS..

I think personally, both the girl and her mother need labotomies and sterilising. Another unplanned chav baby, being paid for by hardworking peoples taxes. :afire:

Russ 17-11-2004 09:25
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
I would have thought the father would have needed the education about condoms..

Stuart 17-11-2004 09:29
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D
I would have thought the father would have needed the education about condoms..

Well, true.... Maybe they should have taught her about the word 'No',

Paul 17-11-2004 09:43
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by scastle
Well, true.... Maybe they should have taught her about the word 'No',
Maybe they should have taught her the law as well ......

Damien 17-11-2004 16:55
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Maybe she needs a brain

kronas 17-11-2004 18:14
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
i think someone needs juvenile detention :mad:

Chimaera 17-11-2004 18:19
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Apparently it's to 'replace the baby she lost' - I'd have thought she would have come to her senses after the last time? Evidently not!

Nidge 18-11-2004 05:03
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
http://www.mansfieldtoday.co.uk/gete...ImageID=215397



Oops, I did it again

MANSFIELD schoolgirl Melissa Smith, who was at the centre of the controversial school abortion row just six months ago, is pregnant again, Chad can exclusively reveal.
The Brunts pupil sparked a media frenzy back in May when it was revealed the 14-year-old had an abortion arranged through an outreach worker without her mother's knowledge.
Yesterday her mum confirmed that Melissa, who is now 15, is five weeks pregnant and plans to keep her baby. It is understood that her schoolboy boyfriend Dwain Smith, who also lives in Mansfield, is the father.
The teenage sweethearts were questioned by police over underage sex issues when Dwain was revealed as the father of the aborted baby earlier this year.
Speaking at her Brick Kiln Lane home, Melissa's mum Maureen told Chad: "I can confirm she is pregnant, but this time things have been done properly. Melissa told me straight away and we were able to discuss the situation as a family.
"I believe Melissa is pregnant again because she is reacting to what happened to her the first time. Had my daughter been given the time to think and discuss her pregnancy with me back then, it would have been a very different story. And this time it is."
Melissa's abortion scandal was a story which sent shockwaves across the country as debate centred on confidentiality issues and a parent's right to know.
Now the shock news that the schoolgirl is pregnant again will turn the national spotlight on the Ladybrook youngster and the hot topic of underage sex - raised only this week by Children's Minister Margaret Hodge.
News of the latest pregnancy comes as Melissa and her mum wait to see if they have been granted legal aid to take their abortion row case to the European Court of Human Rights.
Defiant Maureen will claim that her right to privacy was breached and will fight confidentiality laws for a ruling that a mother has the right to know if a daughter is being given pregnancy or abortion advice.
Yesterday, as she prepared to take Melissa to an ante-natal clinic, she insisted that fight would go on.
"Melissa's pregnancy has not changed a thing," she told Chad. "We are still fighting this because parents have the right to be there for their children."

Nidge 18-11-2004 05:03
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimaera
Apparently it's to 'replace the baby she lost' - I'd have thought she would have come to her senses after the last time? Evidently not!
They are doing it for the money and media attention.

Maggy 18-11-2004 17:01
Re: School helped secret abortion
 
I ponder when I was young and abortion was illegal,teenage girls who were pregnant had little choice.They were sent away to have the baby in secret and the child would be adopted(sometimes within the family).Sometimes some parents just threw the daughter out of the house altogether.

All in all I think things are better now than then.I'm also glad to think that abortion is not always the first step.It's not right for everyone.

Yes teenage pregnancy is a sad issue but at least young girls are not treated in the shameful ways they once were. :)


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