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If it wasn't for an intransigent EU and the lack of a majority in Parliament, it would be! It's a no-brainer, really.

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It appears the Cabinet have agreed something. Embargoed conclusions were sent to journalists for reveal at 9pm.

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Who said it was?😂

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you implied it or you refusing to answer

---------- Post added at 20:35 ---------- Previous post was at 20:34 ----------

less that 30 mins to go if true

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https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/s...24521589600256

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Michel Barnier @MichelBarnier
13 minutes ago

#Chequers discussion on future to be welcomed. I look forward to White Paper. We will assess proposals to see if they are workable & realistic in view of #EUCO guidelines. Next negotiations w/ #UK on WP, & Withdrawal Agreement, w/c 16 July #Brexit

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Are you pleased with what the Cabinet have decided, Old Boy?

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I'll preempt OB's reply and say it's probably academic as the EU will doubtless say it's cherry picking and knock it back but seems like progress. Nice work Theresa and I never thought i'd have cause to say that !

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Yes she has done a rather good job of sidelining the Brexiters. They have been found out to have no plans or backbone. Operation save the UK from this disaster has had a good day :)

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They brought it upon themselves through sheer laziness according to this article.
http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2018...-see-dead-ends

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Well, I don't have the full details yet, do you? As long as we are out of the EU, the single market and the customs union, I am very likely to be happy with this White Paper.

An amicable deal with the EU is preferable, but in the absence of that, we should be prepared to walk away.

---------- Post added at 00:40 ---------- Previous post was at 00:35 ----------

It's in the EU's court now, so we shall see.

I think what we don't want is you guys trying to undermine the UK's position on this. So a bit of quiet on this would be good.

Fat chance. :grind:

---------- Post added at 00:48 ---------- Previous post was at 00:40 ----------

Has your tummy been tickled yet, Andrew?

I'm sorry, but do you really think life is all about rolling over and accepting what's coming to you?

Can I just remind you that the electorate voted to exit the EU? You have done your best to undermine what the majority want by posting every negative story you can muster. In the end, Theresa May will prove you to be wrong. She is more of a 'man' than so many of her wimpy detractors.

Prepare for the final assault. Not long now! :cleader:

---------- Post added at 00:51 ---------- Previous post was at 00:48 ----------

I'm not sure that I understand your language, Mr K. Are you speaking European? I guess you must be. :D

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No one is trying to undermine anything as HMG warring cabinet factions have done a pretty good job of that..

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Not that l agree with some of Andrew's posts but you have heard of one being able to voice ones opinion in this democracy of ours OB unless you want a authoritarian government.

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Hopefully the EU will reject this shabby compromise nonsense and then there'll be no time left for yet another capitulation to the remainers and we ACTUALLY leave on WTO rules.

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Thanks for your reply. I think there's two things to analyse:
1) Effectiveness of Theresa May on Friday
2) The White Paper

1) I would praise her for stepping up and showing some leadership skills. I think you can do this without endorsing the White Paper.
2) Not as bad for the country's economy as I feared but we will be an effective rule-taker so less democratic than either being in or 100% out of the EU.

I'm not sure people debating on an internet forum will impact future negotiations, Old Boy.

You seem not to have had a chance to digest that article, Old Boy. Let me explain.

I think that if the Cabinet Brexiters had come up with a firm, worked through proposal and got countries like Australia, India and the US on board for an alternative trade deal then they would have had an alternative solution which the Cabinet Remainers would have found harder to repudiate.

Instead, she was faced with the realistic prospect of large chunks of industry leaving the country and so there was no option of a clean Brexit.

Clever populist slogans may get you into power but once you're in power, you need to deliver. Brexiters delivered less than Northern Rail and Thameslink put together, and were the architects of their own downfall. This is how I see history will write up Brexit.

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It looks like we'll be in some form of hybrid customs union.

You understand the EU isn't likely be using our posts on here as a barometer for UK public opinion right?

Certainly. Especially more so than the Brexiters in the cabinet, which is even more impressive when you consider for their bluster they've been lacking in any ideas for the situation they campaigned for. I this holds she'll have done well. I mean that.

---------- Post added at 09:30 ---------- Previous post was at 09:29 ----------

The EU/UK understands this is the starting position and I think the Government suspects this will be knocked back at first.

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Looks like the broad terms of a deal with the EU has already been done quietely behind the scenes. Hence May visiting Merkel this week.

So, we'll be in the EU in all but name, but with no say or voting rights on anything. Not great, but better than the nightmare scenario. Hope Farage/Boris etc. are pround of what they have acheived (looks like Boris prefers his ministerial car to principals, of which he has none - he went awol during the Heathrow vote aswell... :D)

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Spot on. The Brexiters snatched defeat from the jaws of victory by not coming up with anything to replace a super-close relationship with the EU. They only had one job to do and two years in which to do it! :dunce:

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Exactly. David Davis has spent just four hours this year negotiating with Michael Barnier. Now that we've got a proposal, we've actually got something we can discuss with them.

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Looks like the men have been blustering and comparing sizes of their trade deals with Narnia and Atlantis whilst the two women have got on and sorted it out over a couple of glasses of Prosecco. :D

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Exactly!;)

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What do you think of what you've read so far on Friday's White Paper, Mick?

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I'll bet our cabinet dip in and out occasionally to get a few ideas :D

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You can leave me out of it as one does not have the nous and intellect like others on here..:D

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Whilst I am not Mick, the important thing for me is separation from the ECJ and the sovereignty of our Parliament. Along with that come the trade deals we might make with other countries or trading groups.

I can give way on technical matters regarding EU trade such as alignment of standards thus having to take account of the ECJ or ignore rulings on our alignment and thus on trade at our peril.

Quite how the Irish border question will pan out is beyond my prediction.

One senses that May cleared this with Merkel and thus the Brussels turds will get new instructions - as in not quite there but shows promise.

OB might well have been right (as we in Wokingham can often be).

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I reserve my judgement for now.

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I'm sure TM will be mightily releived about that Mick ! :)

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Same here, Mick. Like you, I am not too bothered about reverting to WTO rules, but I am not a purist when it comes to Brexit.

Undoubtedly, a deal with Europe would be the best solution, as long as it doesn't involve free movement of people or remaining in the customs union. It looks as though there may be a few problems with the customs issues, but as long as that doesn't restrict our ability to strike our own trade deals or subject us to ECJ rulings, I will probably be able to live with one or two compromises there.

Nice to see things coming together now.

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So a Brexit where we follow EU rules is ok with you? Why not have a 'Brexit' where we have voting rights and a say too ... Just a crazy idea I had ;)

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Didn't we have a referendum with a clear result? And you don't like that result so you want another referendum?

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so how many millions of jobs you happy to lose OB and how big a cliff you want to jump off that what happen with hard Brexit and wto rules

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That’s your assumption, Dave, not reality. Overall, Brexit will do wonders for our economy.

There is no ‘cliff edge’. That is Project Fear, pure and simple.

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You are twisting the truth, Mr K. EU rules will only apply to goods destined for the EU. What’s wrong with that?

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come off fantasy island OB man why you think businesses are gonna move to Europe why you think Boris said f business for telling truth why have Boris and all have no plan


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...-a8080966.html


http://uk.businessinsider.com/no-dea...-a-year-2018-3

lots more of them OB not posing every one project fact but you hate facts

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Why don't we await the EU reaction to the UK proposals and also the business reaction to them?

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good idea

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Isn't that an assumption also?

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exactly

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well cabinet unity didn't last long Boris at it again

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2018/07/1.jpg

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Leadership contest is in the pipeline, heard tonight Brexit back benchers are drafting letters to 1922 Committee.

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general election incoming soon then

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Not necessarily. There wasn’t a GE called when Cameron resigned. Plus there is that little issue of the fixed term parliament act and I think people in U.K. are getting a little tired of elections.

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What a utterly shambolic state politics is in this country.

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Likely to be deeply frowned upon by the electorate.

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Indeed but they will get even more fed it with a disunited party warring among themselves.

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This lot are shambolic but do people really want the Venezuelan alternative?

Start queuing for bread and toilet paper.:rolleyes:

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Corbyn is a a very poor leader but if the electorate decide they have had of enough of this utterly shambolic lot then Bobs your uncle no matter how bad the opposition leader is IMO as the one thing the electorate do not like is deep disunity in a governing party...

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At the end of the day Mick 'hard or no deal Brexiters' are in the vast minority. Both in the Conservative MPs and the country.

I know it's a disappointment but we're going to be 'aligned' to the EU following their rules, with no say. It's worse than now, but better than the hard-line no deal alternative.

The Brexiters didn't have a plan, which is unbelievable . The country has got itself into this mess, and we have to do the best we can. Those that voted for Brexit can't avoid some of the blame, they should really have thought it through rather than follow knee jerk populist tabloid headlines. However they were lied to massively by politicians now trying to save face and rescue their own careers.

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Agreed. The feedback I get from people I know who voted either way on Brexit is she's the best of a bad lot (across all parties), finally showed some leadership skills on Friday and whilst many don't agree with the decision, she has been elected and paid to lead the country and that's what they want her to do as it's how democracy should work in this country.

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Interesting to see the two themes that I mentioned earlier in the year coming together on Friday. The backstop agreement meant a soft Brexit and the Brexiters' lack of a plan meant there was no alternative to clinging tightly to the EU. Here's Sky News's take on why Theresa May triumphed on Friday.
https://news.sky.com/story/boris-joh...-turd-11429837

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I shun any blame because there is none. It is pathetic to call anybody or blame people who used their democratic right to vote one way or another - it is disgusting that blame is being levied on any one but that is very typical of you Mr K.

Brexit will happen because if it does not, it will be the biggest democratic let down in British history, many people will never vote again, ever and I will be one of them - do you really advocate mass voter apathy because that is what will happen?

Lastly - I made an instruction to stop referring to Brexiteers as "hard" or "extreme" - There is no such thing there is just Brexiteers, people who voted to leave answered one question, they voted to leave, this does not make them any other thing, so stop using such terms!!!

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Conservative Backbench backlash is growing over the Friday Chequeres Brexit meeting, with some Tory MP's suggesting this morning, they have no confidence in the Brexit deal and thus have no Confidence in Theresa May....

A Conservativehome snap survey suggests 3/5 Tory Members are unhappy with the deal.

https://www.conservativehome.com/the...r-britain.html

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They either have the numbers or they don't so we'll see if enough of them send letters for the leadership contest or not.

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Please can you help with the links that reinforce this statement, OB? Dave had plenty from various sources saying the opposite so it would be good for people to read the other side's view as well to get a full picture.
Many thanks.

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l suspect a lot of it is hot air.

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agree most of it will be

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So what ? conservative party numbers are a tiny ever declining number of OAPs. They don't represent the country or even those that voted for Brexit.

TM may fall as a result of Brexit, but if she's put the country ahead of her own career then good on her I say. The leadership of the Tories is a piffling issue. Seems others in her cabinet are now more concerned about their own ambitions than any Brexit red lines they once had.

Brexit, as we've seen, seems to mean a wide variety of things. Hence the need for the people to have the final say on the terms of any deal with the EU. This isnt a rerun of the referendum, it's a very different issue.

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I take it Mr_K that you expect the EU to accept the details in the white paper. If so dream on, it won't happen.

As I said (perhaps) thousands of posts ago Article 50 gives one option on trade. You leave, you're out. That does not preclude a future trade deal presumably during the 2yr transiion preiod. There is no such thing as hard or soft brexit. There is only brexit.

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I think people expect the EU to come back on this deal yes, it's a starting position not the final proposal.

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Let's not forget here... ALL EU Member States have to agree, if one member objects, the deal on offer from May is rejected. There is now several EU States that are becoming opposed to everything the EU stands for, not surprising when it is a corrupted entity, but still, with the likes of Poland and Italy, let's hope these countries say no, because what's being offered is not actually Brexit.

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I doubt anyone expects the EU to accept the UK's White Paper in its entireity but after two years they must be relieved to have something from the UK!
The transition period is not two years, Pip. Brexit Day is 29th March 2019 and the transition period ends 31st December 2020. Three months will probably be quite important here.

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Well Barnier has made positive noises about it, and May met Merkel this week. Its almost as if they've given their ok already. Doubtless they'll be some detail but the main part of the deal seems to be done, if anything we might have to give more as we are in a position of weakness, and keep changing 'red lines' and the EU hasn't budged an inch.

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Have you now reached the end of your deliberations on the White Paper, Mick? I know that you were reserving judgment; is the above now your judgment?

I think that any deal will be sweetened with money and that will tip it for the countries you mention v a clean Brexit where the financial sums would presumably be limited to that required by law and reputation.

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I think you are being deliberately obtuse to suggest Barnier and Merkel are the sole decision makers here, they are not - Barnier is EU's mouth piece, he has to go back to Brussels and get every EU Member State agreement on the deal, only takes one country to veto it and the deal is effectively dead.

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Yes I have and I have come to the stark conclusion that it is not Brexit.

It is Bremain for sure.

Us Brexiteers will not stand for this rejection of Democracy, we will revolt and riot if necessary, let the revolt begin en masse, you Remainers may have had your #StopBrexit marches and protests over the last two years but I consider this to be war, did you Remainers think we should just lie down should the Democratic result of the referendum, not be enacted exactly as we voted for?

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The White Paper hasn't been published yet.

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Do you want a referendum on the final deal then?

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:52 ----------

My bad, my original phrasing was along the lines of "From what you've read about the White Paper..."

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A "common rule book" on which we would have no say whatsoever.


As this is all meant to allow a TWO-WAY flow of goods, I assume that the EU would also have to track goods and if sent to the UK, the UK tariff charged and the money sent to the UK. Can't see that happening.

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No because we have already had a referendum with a result of leaving the EU, this means complete departure from every aspect of it. I don't know how many more times I have to say that.

The question on the ballot paper did not ask if we should partially remain in the EU, it was either leave or remain, leave had over a million more votes.

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Maybe James Cleverly's article will make you reconsider? He's a Brexiter.
https://brexitcentral.com/brexiteers...workable-plan/

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It's the customs arrangements that I am most concerned about. I am reserving my judgement until I know more about that.

It is essential that we have the ability to trade with the rest of the world on terms acceptable to us. Anything less would be a betrayal.

The room for maneouvre lies in the arrangements we make for customs in relation to goods to and from the EU. If that can be kept separate from our trade with the rest of the world, we will have a good basis to proceed with Theresa May's plan.

If the EU reject this proposal, it will be academic anyway and we revert to WTO rules. That suits me just fine.

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Nope, no compromises. One option is on the table only - that is to leave, you don't offer a democratic process, ask the people to vote and then ignore that vote because those in power don't like the answer given.

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Andrew, this is a discussion forum and we don't have to justify every statement we make with a link. You can Google this just as much as I can.

However, here's one I agree with.

https://www.capitalandconflict.com/b...ood-bad-trade/

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:clap::clap:

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If Theresa May's White Paper addresses my concerns over free trade, I am prepared to be persuaded of the benefits of this compromise. After all, the main gripe of Remainers is the damage to our trade with the EU that they see as an inevitable consequence of Brexit.

If this deal allows us to trade effectively with the rest of the world outside of EU regulations, prevents the free movement of people, brings back our sovereignty, whilst maintaining favourable trading arrangements with the EU, what's not to like? We would be in keeping with the voters wishes in that we leave the EU, but without damaging EU trade.

The EU can take that or leave it. I don't care either way. Both options can be made to work for Britain.

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It is pointless being persueded by this compromise ATM as it needs the EU to agree. At present I cannot see them accepting it.

What I would like to see is any remainer or brexiter point me to where article 50 allows for this compromise. I'm willing to be educated.

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Frankly, I hope they don't accept it and we go the WTO route. At least we will be able to say we tried.

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No one said every statement needs to be justified with a link Old Boy. But I'm sure you'll agree that supporting links from a range of sources aid people's understanding of what in your case was a bold statement.

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------

Article 50 concerns the withdrawal which takes place on 29th March 2019.
Anything from that date onwards is a matter of negotiation between the EU and the Third Country and is outside the scope of Article 50.

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Thank you for confirming what I have said all along. No hard or soft brexit, just brexit.

May I now ask what you and the other remainers in this thread have been wittering on about for months now? No deal could be made before March 2019.
How can parliament have a meaningful vote on a deal that cannot be done until we have left?

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If you're going to use inflammatory terms like wittering then don't expect an answer from me! :(

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Let's not get too over-sensitive, Andrew!

I know Pip's question was a bit awkward for you, but your response would really help us to understand your position.

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I apologise if I have bruised your ego it was unintentional.

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I don't understand what you mean? The purpose of this offer arranged Friday is trying to reach a deal by March 2019.

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Then I suggest you read and digest the content of Article 50. http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/the...rticle-50.html

Pay special attention to this which has nothing to do with trade.

Article 218(3)
(my bold)

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That second one is only specifying what the 'The Commission, or the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy ' is concerned with.

The link you linked too:


But I'm not a lawyer. However we've been working on the assumption that we can get a deal before the deadline. Even if it's just a transition period while we work out a more complicated one.

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The transition period is already covered in article 50.
I note you only bold the text you think applies to an agreement without regard to the rest.

The part that you chose to bold is dependant on the part I have bolded.

So put simply, any negotiation has to be conducted in accordance with article 218(3). Article 50 is unequivocal in that respect.

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Ok but I still don't see the issue since we and the EU are clearly working on getting some agreement done that maintains the trading relationship ahead of the deadline. I am not a lawyer so don't quite know how to parse the Article 50 text but the players in this working in a different direction.

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I see where you're coming from Damien and I respect that. My take on it is that the EU cannot under it's own rules accept any deal on trade put forward by the UK. It can only accept a deal on security, at least that is how I read the articles. I could be totally wrong only time will tell.

I should imagine any trade deal would be done during the transition period.

Edit Come to think about it what's the point of a transition period if a deal has already been done and agreed?

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Because it would take time to sort out the legal framework, institutions, departments and so on to handle what has been agreed. Even if we had an agreement early on it's unlikely all that could be set up before March 2019.

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It just goes to show, the lack of any preparations before the referendum in the event that the country could vote leave, this tells me, leave was never meant to win.

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and none of the leave campaign leaders have come up with a plan at all either

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And what plan do you require when our hands are tied?

We cannot enter into any trade negotiations with any other country until we leave.

---------- Post added at 23:23 ---------- Previous post was at 23:17 ----------

Of course leave was never meant to win, this is how much parliament was out of touch with the people. They expected remain to be a walkover!

They gambled and lost, now they have to do something they never expected nor wanted.

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BREAKING: David Davis has resigned as the Brexit Secretary

https://news.sky.com/story/david-dav...etary-11430705

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History will write them up as snatching victory from the jaws of defeat. Boris Johnson and Michael Gove were the favourite targets for Eurosceptics today for having backed the Prime Minister. Andrew Bridgen, a pro-Brexit Tory MP, accused Mr Johnson of “waving the white flag of appeasement”.

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there not tired at all EU set out there plan straight away and been asking for a UK plan for 2 years FACT

---------- Post added at 23:53 ---------- Previous post was at 23:51 ----------

knew the infighting would not stop

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Interesting and an honourable thing to do. I didn't see him as particularly effective.

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Theresa May has to be finished now....

Will Boris quit tomorrow ?

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general election coming closer

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Doubt Boris will quit.
Why didn't David Davis quit on Friday?

---------- Post added at 00:04 ---------- Previous post was at 00:02 ----------

Next few days are crucial. Surprised David Davis resigned today after signing up to the proposal on Friday.

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Because it would be forgotten/overlooked about during the hype of the World Cup game between England vs. Sweden on Saturday, perhaps?

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Then please tell me what the EU plan is then. I assume you know it.

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Perhaps. Just looks a bit of a U-turn to me.

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don't know it but know they have one the reason we in this mess is the uk government both remainers and brexiteers have not had one plan till Friday now that messed up now

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Rumours that Michael Gove will be invited to replace David Davis.

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So you don't know what the EU plan is but you seem to be sure they have one.

Hey-Ho

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Steve Baker, a Brexit Minister to Davis has also quit tonight...

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...09182288789505

David Davis letter to May... wow, he didn't hold back !