Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Higher wages = higher costs for associated goods and services. Making us less competitive on a global level regardless of tariffs. Less consumers to absorb costs from. Increased inflationary pressure.

If we can increase productivity we can employ less people. That doesn’t sound like it’s going to drive wages up creating excess supply of potential workers.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What does 'increase productivity' actually mean for the UK?

How many items in your home are 'made' in the UK?

Here's a quick list of general household items . .

Washing machine
Dishwasher
Microwave
Fridge/Freezer
TV/Monitor
Hoovers
HiFi
Computer/Laptop/Tablet/Printer
Internet related items (modems/routers/hubs/)
Phones (mobile & landline)
Power tools
Clothes/Curtains/Bedding/Carpets & Rugs
Furniture

if 50% more of those are made every year, who benefits?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Strange - you provided stats about COVID from North and North-East Lincolnshire, and said "here"...

Now, I understand your reticence to be identified with the region of web-footed twelve-fingered more closely related than they should be Yellowbellies, but to the outside world, the only difference between North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire is the fishy smell of the locals... ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Poor sod must have RP then.....

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

None of them are made here or at least a very small amount is.


But, also, none of them or very few of them are made in the EU either.


Most of the world imports these items from China, which fundamentally makes anything related to them not a Brexit issue - other than that we would then now have to make our own trade deal with China for them if we'd been previously using the EU's (though our items would presumably be different anyway, due to plugs, and would either need UK plugs moulded on or screwed over the Euro ones).


And given that the UK must still be a high importer of these items with or without Brexit, then there in principle shouldn't be issues with them.


But then, all of this ignores things like the Ever Green and Covid related shutdowns...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My point was that, as you stated, we don't make them . . or most of them.

We're a consumer country, using the low wages and 'dirty' energy of other countries to supply our goods.

If we started making many of those ourselves, we'd be paying 4 times the price . . and still possibly having to import half the materials required.

We could probably make them to a much better quality to price them better, but then if items lasted 3 times longer we'd need to make less of them, which actually reduces production doesn't it.

It's a game isn't it, and one we seem to be losing ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Most of what you say would also apply to the EU, US, Aus, NZ, none of them make the stuff, because as you rightly say, the low wage/don't care about fuel source economy in china where the people are treated like shit in sweathouse factories can make it much cheaper even factoring in the cost of shipping it half way round the world (and the environmental impact of doing that).


But absolutely none of it is specifically related to whether or not we are in the EU as these countries face the same issues.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s not specifically related to it, but after decades of a failed economic model (Boris own words) we’ve taken back control. The solutions (if any) have to be driven in a post-EU context.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thanks comrade :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Soz me old mucker, won't happen again chief :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Frenchmen think French should be the Lingua Franca of the EU?

Not going to happen, as English is the World’s common business language (in or out of the EU).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m inclined to think it’s a matter for the EU, of which we are no longer a member.

If England are throwing around a French squirrel I’ll anticipate more bad news for the UK this week.

Seems credible.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think we're in a great position to be honest . . confused Americans to one side, paranoid French to the other.

If you add in Miss Cranky from up the top, we're almost surrounded by muppets :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:Yes:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I wonder if Poland's constitional position may change this? OK we don't actually have a constitution but it goes back to soveriegn nation does it not?

Link

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Some people are pointing to the container ships waiting to get into British ports being due to Brexit. However, the problem is worldwide and clearly nothing to do with Brexit.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ins-shortages/

[EXTRACT]

Standing on the Pacific coast in California, a casual observer might find themselves thinking America had just severed close ties with its biggest trading partners.

Outside Los Angeles and Long Beach - the country's two biggest ports - a queue of container ships stretches to the horizon, waiting to dock and offload their wares.

But this clear evidence of a supply chain crisis has nothing to do with any Brexit-style rupture. Instead, it has been caused by global chaos as ports struggle to recover from Covid shutdowns and the world struggles with a massive shortage of lorry drivers.

The turmoil in America is linked directly to disruption in Britain which critics here are keen to blame on our departure from the European Union - despite clear evidence of the same issues not just in LA, but across the Continent as well.

“Britain is by no means alone in suffering these problems, there have been issues at Rotterdam, Hamburg and Antwerp, and we have not been so badly hit as some which have much bigger volumes going through them as containers hang around for longer,” says Richard Ballantyne, chief executive of the British Ports Association.

“This is not a Brexit issue - rather than the haulage problem - and it’s unfair to say that border controls resulting from leaving the EU are a cause of this.”

The Port of LA, known as ‘America’s Port’, is the biggest entry site in the US for overseas imports. Its (literal) next-door neighbour, the Port of Long Beach, is also struggling. Together, the pair operate 13 private container terminals and account for about a third of US sea imports.

The sites, both in Long Beach, LA, have been chockablock for months, with vessels waiting weeks just to make it to the docks.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Glad this has all been cleared up, the ones that left the country clearly wouldn't have made any difference after all

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

wait . . what . . we've had ports leave the country?

No wonder the remaining ones are struggling

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

One what, one person glad the truths finally out, clearly when you are tens of thousands of drivers short losing thousands more on top will only help the situation

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

DVLA are partly to blame as they've not processed around 45,000 HGV licence renewals. Covid was the excuse but they're very slow at getting the backlog sorted out.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'd like you to point out where someone on this forum has held Brexit 100% accountable for the issues we're currently facing with regards to the HGV/supply chain issues. Everything i've read on here suggests Brexit is exacerbating the situation, not the root cause.

You wouldn't be partaking in wilful misrepresentation, would you old bean?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Seph, never, not a mischievous bone in his body. :angel:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Seems license renewals were in fact made easier, but if people didn't want to renew that's a different story ;)

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...virus-pandemic

Applications for the renewal of lorry and bus driving licences during the coronavirus pandemic
Updated 29 June 2021

June 2021 . . that's a while ago

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Believe Johnson or believe Cummings.
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-eu...tocol-12432447

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Everybody hide, Cummings is back with more 'look at me' tweets :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's like asking to choose between herpes & gonorrhea? BTW i'd take gonorrhea, herpes stays with you forever, like luggage

Personally, I'd err towards Cummings, but just.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

"Clearly nothing to with Brexit"?

Strange that Richard Ballantyne, quoted by the Telegraph, said something different late August…

https://britishports.redwiredesign.c...ain-pressures/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It doesn’t help that OB prefers to talk in absolutes and has trouble with shades of grey. However, Ballantyne is all over the BBC today blaming covid for interrupting the normal smooth movement of containers around the world and not blaming Brexit at all.

There is of course a difference between “nothing to do with” and “contributing factor”, however within the phrase “contributing factor” is a whole range of meanings. It seems to me that last summer, and up to the last few weeks in fact, it has been the (IMO fairly lazy) cop out to simply name-check Brexit, because plenty of people said this *would* happen and too few journalists have been prepared to actually check if it *is* happening, despite the rather obvious alternative explanation. Time and time again we have seen the figure of 100,000 too few lorry drivers in the UK, but only recently did anyone start actually doing the maths and asking whether it’s fair to name Brexit at, or in fact anywhere near the top, of the list of contributing factors when the Road Haulage Association’s most pessimistic estimate is that only 20% of those vacancies were caused by EU drivers returning home (and in fact, even a proportion of those drivers left because of the pandemic rather than Brexit).

Brexit is clearly a contributing factor in the shortage of lorry drivers we are currently experiencing, however based on the most recent reports it seems quite unreasonable to name it near the top of that list.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Totally agree. It seems that people will say either Brexit 100% or 0% the cause of the issues where it is somewhere in between. Where the end of freedom of movement does impact things is the resilience to dynamic situations. If there is a Europe wide shortage of drivers, all the countries are basically competing for the same pool of existing drivers for today along with training up drivers for the future. The end of freedom of movement puts the UK at a competitive disadvantage against countries attracting drivers with no restrictions, paperwork, costs, etc.

Yes, we can outbid other countries purely on pay but that has an impact in inflation if productivity stays the same. Trucks can only carry so much goods so the only options to increase productivity would be to suck up the additional costs or increase productivity through more hours per driver

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I acknowledge, of course, that Brexit has had an impact. However, the queue of container ships would have been there with or without Brexit. It’s more to do with the relaxation of Covid restrictions bringing everything back to life all at once. Container ships are in the wrong place and there is a worldwide shortage of lorry drivers.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh of course you acknowledge it, silly everyone for not realising that when you said

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The point I was making was that we would still have been in this position had we remained inside the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Another interesting take on the NI Protocol from The Spectator.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/...he-brexit-deal

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I heard Varadkar on the radio this afternoon. He really is a spiteful little man. He is, however, at least being consistent. He’s a massive Anglophobe with a chip on his shoulder, and always has been. On the plus side, he’s the deputy leader of a small backwater on the edge of Europe, and by the time he gets back into whatever they call the place the Irish prime minister lives, we will be far beyond the phase in this drama where he’s the EU’s useful idiot, giving them an excuse to use the peace process to keep the UK shackled to single market rules.

The reason he’s been doing the media rounds today is that his pet narrative, that the UK is a bad actor in treaty negotiations, has been challenged by Frost’s claim that it’s the EU that’s been acting disreputably, by making unreasonable linkage between unconnected aspects of the UK/EU relationship. That he felt he had to speak in such direct and unfriendly terms does however betray how powerless he feels. Note his focus is on trying to poison the well as the UK discusses trade partnerships with third parties, rather than confining himself to matters within his purview.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He should be more careful. If we give up on the EU deal, the Republic of Ireland will not come out of it well.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

In what way?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Irish Republic is heavily dependent on trade with the UK.

If, for example, the UK decided to pursue a policy of cheap agricultural imports from third countries, this alone would have a damaging impact on the Irish Republic.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Meanwhile.....

https://news.sky.com/story/pig-cull-...ghter-12433407

If it's as successful as the HGV recruitment we will get perhaps 20?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The deals the UK and EU have signed with New Zealand will eventually bring cheaper meat into the British & Irish isles which will impact agriculture in both islands.

Other than that, I don't think any other agricultural deals are on the horizon. Any deals the UK strikes need to be balanced against the impact on its own agricultural sector.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Swings/roundabouts - we usually have a trade surplus with Ireland, so we would be cutting off our nose to spite our face…

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...ings/cbp-8173/ What "third countries" would replace the Irish agricultural goods?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

from that link
Supermarkets are the root cause, deals & contracts done with 'suppliers' at terms which are very close to make or break for them, meaning the wages offered by the suppliers to their workers are as low as they can get them . . recruitment problem right there.

Anyone remember a few years ago, dairy farmers saying it was cheaper for them to pour milk down the drain than sell it to supermarkets at the prices they were willing to pay?

Look around your local area, are the smaller butchers struggling? I bet they're not.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

From that same article, the approx salary is 25k now, granted that's under the average UK salary by approx £1.2k based on Q1 2021 numbers. However, there's a lot of people who would like to earn that salary but don't get anywhere near.

Smaller butchers can't supply a population of 68 odd million, well, they could but then they wouldn't be smaller butchers for very long.

Large populations in the most part require complex supply chains, furthermore, the answer can't be to pay everyone more as everyone knows where that will lead us.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

. . . and the reason they're cheaper at a supermarket is?


If you were a supplier of meat products (farmer) and could get £30 for a pig at a supermarket (£1 profit), or £35 for the same pig to a local butcher (£6 profit), who would you sell to?

But the local only wants 10 pigs, so the other 1000 go to the supermarkets at the cheaper price . . . or get culled if the supermarket price drops to £28 per pig (£1 loss)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Gollum Cummings said today that the UK always planned to ditch the NI Protocol anyway, if he's proven to be telling the truth heads need to roll imo

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The NI Protocol was only in the event of absence of a deal with the UK as a whole. In theory if the EU was ever intending on acting in good faith, it wouldn't never have been needed in the first place, which it wasn't whatever way you look at things.

There was never going to be a mass movement of items not approved by the EU from GB to the EU via NI. Even if there was, there is nothing illegal about that.
Ireland depends heavily on goods coming from or through the UK.
Link

So that's doing Ireland more of a favour than GB or NI. Why didn't the EU agree to that in the first place?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Bit confused by this. The EU wants to protect its' Single Market and Ireland has not intention of leaving the EU any time soon so there were three options - closing the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland, threatening the Good Friday Agreement, the whole of the UK staying in the Single Market or having the North stay in the Single Market.

Options 1 and 2 were no go due to either international or internal relations so option 3 was the only one. I am not sure why you think there's no risk of non-EU approved goods crossing the border in to the EU if there is essentially no border. Bringing goods in to a country where they are prohibited is certainly illegal, it's called smuggling

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Can you clarify how this is a favour to Ireland.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

NI is not part of the EU single market, but as the NI protocol specifies, IS part of the UK single market.
Non-approved doesn't mean illegal. EU states can legally produce non-approved items, just as long as they don't market them etc within the EU. Small amounts of goods will always move across ANY border. There just wouldn't be the shipping of large quantities of non-approved goods from the UK into the EU via NI. Even then it would be an issue for the EU alone, just as it is for every other country on the planet. EG Chinese producers sometimes can and DO ship non-approved items into the EU and UK. Nothing new about that. Then again EU countries sometimes can and DO ship non-approved items to other EU countries and the UK. There simply was no justification for imposing restrictions on moving items between GB and NI.

---------- Post added at 17:19 ---------- Previous post was at 17:14 ----------

Link
Link

Irish farmers used to prefer to buy their seed potatoes from the UK, as they were better quality and less disease-ridden than those from the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You may wish to inform the nidirect.gov.uk website about the inaccurate information on their Official website…

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles...eland-protocol

Oh, and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/assembl...s-and-answers/ And the Irish Tax Authorities

https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-tr...-ni/index.aspx

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I see the first part has been covered but on your point about non-EU products entering the EU, this is only done under very specific controlled circumstances. The non-approved products can only enter the EU to be further processed in to an approved state or held at specific auditable locations. There is a lot of paperwork involved at the port of entry.

The company I work for makes non-approved machinery for shipment to the US. Even the simple act of moving it from the factory to the shipper and onwards to the airport or port is riddled with difficulty.

In the case here, the port of entry in to the Single Market is where the goods are offloaded in Northern Ireland, not at the Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland border

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The penny has dropped.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

From actual Protocol.
The problem is that it all relies on the EU not being awkward as part of the Joint Committee.
Just look at France and their fishermen for how that is going to go.
IIRC Under WTO rules, if a territory has different customs rules, then it is formally a separate territory under WTO rules. As there are rules for between NI & GB, NI is a separate customs territory.
Link

If NI is part of the UK customs territory as specified in the Protocol, then GB cannot have "separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade" with NI. Otherwise NI becomes a separate customs territory and things get even more messy.NI(ie UK government) would have to come to a formal trade agreement with GB(ie UK government again).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I read the other day that the EU are withholding payments to Poland until this is all sorted (to the EU's satisfaction obviously), and the Polish are calling it blackmail . . which in a sense isn't far from the truth.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

For how many years has Germany ruled that German Law has primacy over EU law, and suddenly it's a problem?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And where does it mention "EU Single Market", which you said NI wasn’t part of?

Who to believe - the NI Assembly, the NI Government, the Irish Government Tax Authorities, or you?

Tricky one…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

To be fair, Poland has been pretty dodgy recently with their judiciary, packing the courts with political appointees and summarily dismissing judges who rule against the government. The ECHR has found the Polish government to be in breach or Article 6, the right to a fair trial, a couple of times now.

Breaching and, importantly, continuing to breach the ECHR doesn't give the EU anywhere to go - Poland will be in breach of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union by extension
-------------------------------------------
in other news, Her Maj had a visitor yesterday at Buckingham Palace, the new EU Ambassador to the UK João Vale de Almeida - https://twitter.com/EUdelegationUK/s...76873167917066

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or this

https://assets.publishing.service.go...LATIONSHIP.pdf

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

WTO rules don't exclude agreements between different customs territories, ie NI and EU, but the establishment of the NI customs territory means there should be full WTO tariffs and customs rules between NI & GB, in both directions. NI cannot be in the same customs territory as GB as well as with the EU. Just not possible under WTO rules.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Best tell all the signatories, then, and get them to fix it...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Doesn't look like anyone has complained yet

https://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/post-bre...eOrganization/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Raab agrees with you, he was on the radio this morning saying the same, slept through the interview annoyingly but heard extracts, he has a solution to, prisoners on day release and ex offenders, rehabilitation of offenders has no bigger advocate than me, I've even lobbied my MP over changes to the DBS system (to no avail at the time but the changes I wanted to see are in place now so it's moot I guess) and given the attitude then compared to now, I wonder where this welcomed about turn has come from

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Asylum-seekers would be up for it too.

The fact that the US has problems with discharging ships' cargo does not mean that Brexit hasn't worsened or improved the discharging ships' cargo situation in the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Brexit has exacerbated both problems (lorry driver shortages and container ship delays at ports, which are both connected, of course) but Brexit is not the actual cause of either. Had there not been a pandemic, I doubt that these problems would have arisen.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The French and this fishing boat episode, the threats of further stuff, and the way they serenely ignore those people leaving their shores by dinghy . . is it time we gave the buggers a good kicking? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Start by insisting that every bottle of Champaign must be opened by customs and checked for contamination. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well we should boycott all French produce.


I only buy British where possible.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where do you buy British from?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The supermarkets

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Clarkson's Farm Shop?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I wouldn't trust supermarkets . . just because something says 'British made' doesn't mean the ingredients are from Britain ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I trust Waitrose!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Waitrose Stem Ginger. Label states Packed in the UK.
Back of label says Chinese stem ginger in syrup. So is the ginger from China or is Chinese a variety? What about the syrup and the jar, where do they come from?
Co-op is very good at origin labelling - it often lists where all the ingredients come from and where the final product is made.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Speaking of Putin, Christopher Steele claims Russia is at war with the UK, they interfered in the Scottish independence referendum and in the EU referendum and if the Scots get another shot they'll try and break us up again and yet no one says a word, why is this being ignored? Is it because a spat with France is easier?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Outstanding review of those on the Waitrose website…

:D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I don’t like the sound of the whiskers…:sick:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You're extrapolating the opinion of a campaigning French Prime Minister to be that of the EU.

The fact that Macron has had to put this in writing to the EU indicates the difference in views. Have you worked out why it's been leaked? To try and increase the idiot's electoral chances.

I'm sure the Telegraph and Johnson are lapping it up too, a useful distraction from increasing household costs for them.

We've done this one before. Russia, North Korea, China, Iran, Taliban, ISIS, etc.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Most unlike the Telegraph to misquote someone/something about the E.U…

What the French PM said (not Macron) actually said: "It's necessary to show European public opinion that agreements have to be respected and are non negotiable, and that it's more detrimental to leave the union than to stay in it."

The article actually attributes the comment to a UK government source, framed to deliberately mislead their readers - not so much a misquote, more like gaslighting, but it already seems to have achieved its objective among it’s readership...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hugh has proved that the Telegraph article is fake news. He has been more rigorous than others like me and you who actually believed it to be true! Our bad!

The fact that the UK and France are both NATO members should ably demonstrate we're not enemies. Doesn't mean we're not competitors, mind. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You mean Russia that interfered in the EU referendum and want to break up the UK through Scottish independence and intelligence people have gone as far as saying are actually at war with us and yet they're not the enemy, France is


France isn't in NATO is it, well not fully

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 ----------

How do they intend to punish us, by taking a big dump in all our waterways, by taking 4% of gdp, a bigger hit longterm hit than covid according to OBR or by ruining our farmers

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So you check EVERY item you purchase to make sure it's not a product of EU. Like say Strawberries and other soft fruit or vegetables? Must take ages to go shopping with you.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Per this list it is. I think it's Germany that has less involvement, UK and France are the key European members.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/nato_countries.htm

:gpoint:

---------- Post added at 10:23 ---------- Previous post was at 10:12 ----------

Carth and I have harped on about this for a bit. But look at a bar of chocolate from the Co-op or a ready meal from there as the Co-op is good at disclosing this data. Ingredients from all across the world. Made in the UK sometimes but the ingredients are global and most manufacturers do not disclose their origin and probably don't know them either.

And as for buying a car, again global sourcing so plenty of EU content in them. And even British car brands like Vauxhall (mostly EU), Jaguar (Some Austrian), Land Rover (Some Slovakian), MG (China, Thailand) and MINI (Some German and Dutch) are not all assembled here.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My previous car was a Toyota, my present one is a Nissan, both made (assembled) in England . . but that's about as far as it goes :D

I looked at the Honda HR-V but didn't fancy ending up with a Mexican one ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They sort of left in 1966, they withdrew from the NATO command but still participated in joint operations, they came back into command structure in 2009 and are full members.