Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35970040)

Come on Mr K, I think you’re ignoring me. I ask again, what would be the options on your referendum?

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And ask them what?

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970045)

It would be quite simple, accept the proposed deal or reject it, - 2 options, most can cope with that.

If rejected the Govt. would have to renegotiate or come up with a better plan. It wouldn't automatically mean the end of your beloved Brexit.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970045)

It would be quite simple, accept the proposed deal or reject it, - 2 options, most can cope with that.

If rejected the Govt. would have to renegotiate or come up with a better plan. It wouldn't automatically mean the end of your beloved Brexit.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970047)

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969993)

If something is repeated often enough, it becomes the truth.. ;)

<snip>.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970000)

That is true, but I'm not sure why you have made this comment. After all, it is the truth.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969953)

You actually said: "He can sometimes give that impression. I guess it's his personality with his accountant's roots.". I put no words into your mouth

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970045)

It would be quite simple, accept the proposed deal or reject it, - 2 options, most can cope with that.

If rejected the Govt. would have to renegotiate or come up with a better plan. It wouldn't automatically mean the end of your beloved Brexit.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970053)

Try a google search on my phrase... ;)

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970023)

Well I have sort of said we need to go back to the people if the politicians have failed us.

P.S. Nothing wrong with saying what's on your mind, you're as articulate and intelligent as anyone on here, but sometimes you have to come off the fence...

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970027)

You can't just sit on the fence criticising, Den. That's the easiest option.

If you think the government is handling this badly, what would your definition be of handling it well?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970027)

We are facing a hostile EU, whom Theresa is dragging into a situation they want to be in. At the same time, TM has to sort out the border issue, the remainers, her own party, and parliament. She's working against the odds - don't you think it's time we gave her a little slack?

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35970066)

Brexit news: Three more ministers set to quit as Theresa May faces fresh turmoil
EXCLUSIVE: Sources say three ministers are in “advanced talks” to follow his lead and plunge Theresa May’s government into fresh turmoil

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...sters-13566895

Four UK ministers on verge of quitting, EU rejects latest plan - Sunday Times

https://uk.reuters.com/article/brita...XL0UM?rpc=401&

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970068)

Not on the fence at all Mr K as l don't believe we should have another referendum but that does not mean anybody or anything should be exempt from criticism unlike one or two on here who lickspittle and take umbrage at a differing view or opinion on here from others.

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No fence sitting from me OB as l have stated all along what a complete shambles this government has been since the referendum vote and nothing they have done since has altered that view at all as to put it frankly HMG could not organise a piss up in a brewery and that is being kind to them.

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Here we go again blame the EU for the complete omnishambles in this country since the referendum as l am not saying the EU are not culpable in many ways in a good many things but stop lickspittling to Theresa May all the time as you need to take off your rose tinted glasses for once come into the real world of reality.

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If you have open civil war within a incumbent government then its just a matter of time before that government collapses.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970045)

It would be quite simple, accept the proposed deal or reject it, - 2 options, most can cope with that.

If rejected the Govt. would have to renegotiate or come up with a better plan. It wouldn't automatically mean the end of your beloved Brexit.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970077)

Don’t forget he also said

Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35970073)

As i have pointed out before. The Referendum was Cameron's attempt to unite the increasingly fractured Tory party. It is clearly not having the desired result and the country is suffering as a result.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35970078)

Wrong Mr K, if the deal is rejected we leave without a deal. That is the reality. Therefore+making such a second referendum pointless.

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He was right it “should” be, but we haven’t even got to that stage yet. We’re still negotiating the “withdrawal” agreement not the the future relationship.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970085)

The No Deal thing is the least likely outcome, in fact it won't happen as it would send the country into chaos. Even this Govt. isn't that mad. It has to made to look a possibility for the sake of negotiation but nobody has been fooled.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970092)

Anyone would think that no countries could survive outside of the EU! Well, they do, and they also trade with the EU, with or without trade deals.

The choice is between a deal and what has become affectionately known as a 'hard Brexit'. This is not going to change.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35970095)

Which large and prosperous European countries are not in the EU single market or customs union?
I'm talking about Europe as proximity is important http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/0...ters-in-trade/

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970092)

Anyone would think that no countries could survive outside of the EU! Well, they do, and they also trade with the EU, with or without trade deals.

The choice is between a deal and what has become affectionately known as a 'hard Brexit'. This is not going to change.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970103)

What a strange question, Andrew.

Proximity is convenient, but distance is not the barrier it once was.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35970075)

I think people today will be facing up to a couple of Brexit realities:

1. There is no strong and stable government in place at the moment and things are likely to worsen. It really is a case of Carry on Brexit. :D
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...sters-13566895

2. The EU has likely rejected May's proposal for the Irish backstop
https://news.sky.com/story/rejection...-plan-11551130
As a reminder, on 17 July 2016, John Redwood told us "Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy - the UK holds most of the cards in any negotiation." SEPH]: Unforunately the stupid TB guvmin did not play those cards.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970108)

Could you tell us which countries trade with EU without a trade deal, please?

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970146)

However, the best bet, and it is a gamble, would be for a new PM to call the EU’s bluff, go for no deal and see if the EU panic.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970146)

Look - there are two camps here.

1/
Those who favour the economic arguments and the lower risk in that respect of remaining in the EU.

2/
Those who place sovereignty above being regulated by the EU. This faction is further spurred by the EU’s attitude to negotiations.

Add to that mix an incompetent guvmin and we get to the ridiculous situation where even prominent Leavers are opining that remaining is better than the current TB deal.

The UK is in real turmoil and much of the future is in Parliament’s hands. With Leave/Remain now united in rejecting TB’s folly, the crisis will only deepen.

However, the best bet, and it is a gamble, would be for a new PM to call the EU’s bluff, go for no deal and see if the EU panic.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970146)

Look - there are two camps here.

1/
Those who favour the economic arguments and the lower risk in that respect of remaining in the EU.

2/
Those who place sovereignty above being regulated by the EU. This faction is further spurred by the EU’s attitude to negotiations.

Add to that mix an incompetent guvmin and we get to the ridiculous situation where even prominent Leavers are opining that remaining is better than the current TB deal.

The UK is in real turmoil and much of the future is in Parliament’s hands. With Leave/Remain now united in rejecting TB’s folly, the crisis will only deepen.

However, the best bet, and it is a gamble, would be for a new PM to call the EU’s bluff, go for no deal and see if the EU panic.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970229)

Cabinet ministers voiced doubts at PM's preferred Brexit plan from the start.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46175150

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970230)

Still signed up to it though didn't they ?

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970133)

Or, Redwood was playing Snap and the EU was playing Texas Hold ‘Em... ;)

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970146)

even prominent Leavers are opining that remaining is better than the current TB deal

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35970254)

Sigh. The country made their informed consent in June 2016!!! :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35970254)

Sigh. The country made their informed consent in June 2016!!! :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35970267)

It wasn't informed as the leave deal was not done and various leave politicians offered contradictory messages eg still staying in EEA, not staying in the EEA.
The UK Government should have negotiated with the EU without the disadvantageous time pressure of Article 50 which favours the hand of the EU then offered the country the two choices.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35970270)

It was quite simple.

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35970270)

It was quite simple.

Originally Posted by Financial Times

The EU’s chief Brexit negotiator has said the main elements of an exit treaty text are ready to present to the UK cabinet on Tuesday, according to diplomats briefed on the discussions.

Speaking after late-night talks that ran to almost 3am, Michel Barnier told ministers from the EU’s remaining 27 member states that “the parameters of a possible agreement are very largely defined” but still require political endorsement.

While guarded and making clear that exchanges with London are continuing, Mr Barnier’s private comments have raised expectations in some national capitals that a breakthrough on a withdrawal text is within reach this week. Diplomats underlined that everything will turn on whether Theresa May will be able to muster support from her cabinet.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35970269)

This is nonsense on stilts.

If the exit deal is deliberately designed to inform the referendum debate, then the only incentive is for the exit deal to be bad, in order to influence the result to remain.

The only way to fairly hold the referendum was the way it was actually held: without a deal on the table, so the argument could be settled on points of principle and a long-term view of where the U.K. sees itself in the world, not on the grubby details of any political deal.

That, also, is why *there*will*not*be*a*second*referendum* - the debate was held, and the vote was cast, *without* being unduly influenced by a political circus that, 20 years from now, will have thoroughly faded from memory.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35970274)

Do we have a deal?

https://www.ft.com/content/19529d88-...5-04b8afea6ea3

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35970265)

Incorrect .. as we can now all plainly see ..

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35970271)

that part was yes but the aftermath as been anything but simple

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35970279)

You can thank remainers for that. The simple way was to let the Government negotiators get on with their job and negotiate from a position of strength.
Remainers didn't like that though which led to court cases, judicial decisions etc that left the EU in the driving seat.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970283)

The trouble is Theresa May whether through her own naked political ambition or by being poorly advised called a General Election which weakened utterly any position of strength HMG had in their negotiations with the EU.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970285)

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970285)

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35970287)

you mean her own party wont play nicely they more divided than ever

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35970288)

The EU are out to protect their own interests. It seems that this, as well as the idea that German car manufacturers wouldn't force a deal, has caught too many people by surprise.

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35970287)

you mean her own party wont play nicely they more divided than ever

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35970296)

I think some Brexiters started to believe their own propaganda and anything that doesn't fit into this Fantasy island approach is naively dismissed as Project Fear.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35970302)

More divided than Labour do you think ?

Corbyn last Friday: "We can't stop Brexit now."

Keir Starmer TODAY: "Brexit can be stopped." :rolleyes:

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Or perhaps some people voted for Brexit and couldn't give a shit either way, like me, they just want to leave the corrupted EU in it's entirety, LIKE ME!!! :dozey:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970309)

Maybe you should move to the US, Mick instead of trying to create it here? Seems to me you'd be a lot happier - no EU who are obviously making your life a daily misery, Trump on tap and 24/7 Fox news if you like ;)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35970302)

More divided than Labour do you think ?

Corbyn last Friday: "We can't stop Brexit now."

Keir Starmer TODAY: "Brexit can be stopped." :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:16 ----------



Or perhaps some people voted for Brexit and couldn't give a shit either way, like me, they just want to leave the corrupted EU in it's entirety, LIKE ME!!! :dozey:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35970277)

Who is this "we" ?

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35970318)

The people who can rationally view the reality of this debacle and who are not driven by dogma and denial.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35970316)

The comedy continues:

British Airways to become SPANISH: Firm in bid to change nationality after Brexit

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35970317)

They are a crap Airline - good riddance.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970322)

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35970276)

just cant see how any deal can get past parliament as both brexiteers and remainers are gonna vote against it

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35970316)

The comedy continues:

British Airways to become SPANISH: Firm in bid to change nationality after Brexit

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970283)

The trouble is Theresa May whether through her own naked political ambition or by being poorly advised called a General Election which weakened utterly any position of strength HMG had in their negotiations with the EU.

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35970287)

you mean her own party wont play nicely they more divided than ever

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970327)

She called it to try to get a bigger majority, which she knew would be necessary to avoid the chaos we have now seen. Effectively, she was proved right. Shame the election didn't produce the result she wanted, the Brexit journey would have been much smoother..

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35970324)

Who care if it is or isn't crap, that's not the point is it? It is the national flag carrier .. or was :)

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35970270)

It was quite simple.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970329)

She had it as the 2015 General Election produced the first Conservative majority government since 1992 so there was absolutely no need for another one but of course that does not count on naked political ambition and being poorly advised does it.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970342)

It was a small minority, which enabled the '*******s' in her party to call the shots. That's why she wanted more elected Conservative MPs.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970343)

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35970324)

Who care if it is or isn't crap, that's not the point is it? It is the national flag carrier .. or was :)

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35970355)

Obviously we haven’t seen TMs deal, but it looks like it’s not Brexit. It looks like staying in the CU, which is not Brexit.

It seems that the issue is the N.I. Border. It’s an issue, but kicking the can down the road and trapping the U.K. within the EU is not the answer.

We must leave the EU and negotiate from outside the EU, it may cause a bit of pain around the N.I. Border but it will focus the minds to sort it out quickly.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970344)

She was widely expected to get an increased majority, as you will recall.

The best laid plans....

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35970357)

Remember that the ‘bit of pain’ around the Irish border subverts the democratic will of the people of Northern Ireland who voted for the Good Friday Agreement with a 71.1% yes vote.

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35970315)

labour are divided but not in government it up to the government to come up with a plan as that's there job to goven

longing for the day labour have a decent leader again and Corbyn gone for good

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970360)

That's the point, isn't it? We've not seen this proposed deal in its current form and Theresa May has said explicitely that no British PM would agree to an Irish border, border in the Irish Sea, etc. So it is a bit premature to criticise it before it has actually seen the light of day.

Any agreement to retain the customs union will only last for the implementation period, because as I keep saying, we cannot make our own trade deals while that remains in place.

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35970357)

Remember that the ‘bit of pain’ around the Irish border subverts the democratic will of the people of Northern Ireland who voted for the Good Friday Agreement with a 71.1% yes vote.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970373)

Till she screwed it up with her Maybot mantra. A totally useless misjudge of everything.

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The GFA does not mention the border.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970373)

The GFA does not mention the border.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970405)

I don’t think people living in mainland Britain really understand how much life has changed in NI because of the GFA.

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35970406)

True, however, it is acknowledged that the open border has enhanced and facilitated North/South cooperation, especially in the border corridor (strand 2 of the Belfast Agreement) see paragraphs 127 and 128 of this paper - https://publications.parliament.uk/p.../329/32907.htm

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35970345)

Let me think... Hmmm.... Still don't care....

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970405)

The GFA led to the removal of border checkpoints, so it’s fairly relevant.

The concern is that a re-imposition of these could lead to the Troubles flaring up again, and since we lost 3,600 in the previous Troubles, no one (sensible) wants that. As Jonathan Powell, the UK’s GFA chief negotiator put it "“Having a soft border was crucial because that meant the issue of identity was really removed from the table. You could live in Northern Ireland all your life and be Irish (have an Irish passport, never notice there was a border), or you could be British, or you could be both. If you have a hard border and we go back to the concrete blocks on small roads and the border point crossings and all that, then the identity issue is reopened.”

I don’t think people living in mainland Britain really understand how much life has changed in NI because of the GFA.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35970407)

Nailed it.
When I see naive comments such as "the remainers invented the Irish border issue - it's a non-issue", I do worry. Hopefully, those behind the wheel understand things a bit better.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970423)

Of course Brexiteers want to keep an open border.

We are saying the issue was invented by remainers as a barrier to Brexit because there are alternatives to the hard border. The vast majority of trade between NI and Ireland will still be as it is now - there is a very small percentage that will need additional checks post Brexit. The UK has put forward a number of solutions, all of which appear to have been rejected out of hand by the EU.

If they wanted to resolve this matter, they could. If the EU don't want a hard border, and we know they don't, the last thing they will want is a no-deal Brexit, which would bring that very situation about. This is just one good reason why a deal will be brokered in the end.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970409)

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35970424)

What would solve it? The idea we've already solved it but it's been rejected seems to be in the same bucket as when everyone said the EU have said No to all our ideas for an agreement before we even knew what we wanted!

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35970430)

Oh, for a bit of interesting fun, I found a nice table discussing how legitimate the EU and the member state governments (plus EEA states) are from a democratic point of view which I thought was quite interesting. The chart also aligns the EU roles with governmental ones from member states.

Fill ya boots here - https://arnoldplaton.files.wordpress...cy1.png?w=1250

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35970437)

Doesn't an empire require an emperor? Clearly shows the trajectory of remaining in the EU: Imperialism.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970438)

You may wish to look up ‘metaphor’...

What he is saying is that a large economic bloc will have more negotiating power against the other large blocs like China and the US.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35970438)

You may wish to look up ‘metaphor’...

What he is saying is that a large economic bloc will have more negotiating power against the other large blocs like China and the US.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35970435)

Doesn't, conveniently, include the EU Commission?

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35970450)

It does include the president of the Commission who represents the Commission to the member states and the President of the Council who represents the EU on the world stage