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One of the Big Lies about the Leave campaign was that we could not control EU immigration .. |
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And it is all very well for you to say that we can send them back if they don't get work, but that depends on whether we can find them! We should only let in those who have the skills we require until we can restore the balance. Leaving the EU will help us to achieve that. |
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He is certainly not the person to listen to if you want to stay in your own comfort zone. |
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Hilarious, one moment he is embarrassing me with his eloquence, demolishing my arguments and the next it's not that at all, the thing now is I'm not actually listening to him at all and you think after posting that it's me that should be embarrassed. |
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The Evening Standard today has a robust article from Grant Lewis on Brexit trade lies. Quote:
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I see Lord Lawson, keenest of Brexiteers, has applied for residency in France ! LOL
Leading Brexiteer Lord Lawson applies for French residency - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44313941 |
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Obviously it is not that bad that he would want to eat frogs legs instead so all joking aside, it just shows that Europe works for the rich. I don't know how he framed his specific voice to leave but saying that the EU does not work for the poor but does for the rich is likely exemplified by his behavior here ; hypocritical as it may look. |
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As for housing / education etc - do you expect them to be deprived of the care they are entitled to? The housing and education that everyone gets? Or would you rather that they are treated as second class citizens? By all means, now that the UK is leaving the EU the UK can do as it chooses with housing / education etc...just don't expect EU immigrants to make sure they operate the system too (by supplying Nurses / teachers etc). It is you that is the gamble here (not you personally, but your generation) and they voted "leave" more than anyone so time to put your money where your mouth is I guess. Quote:
Now, you could have some restrictions / allow some people in from the EU (with as many caps as you wish) but not be a member of the SM but with no benefits of the SM the burden and drain would be severely on us. Quote:
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Let's start from the very basics here: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...lation/mar2017 Our population is losing (through death or emigration) a certain number of people every year. The UK birth rate is also at a 10 year low: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8066101.html Quote:
Just look at it this way: Quote:
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With the TFR dropping and dropping (along with the birth rate hitting a 10 year low) the population will become stagnant and start falling like other nations that have a very closed off immigration system - like Japan. Do you get from just a statistical POV that with less people there will be less paying tax and with an ever aging society / older and older people living longer and longer that the whole system is untenable and unstable? I mean to put it bluntly, who on earth is going to pay for all these services that you keep talking about? Less being born, less immigrants, LFPR lower and lower, more elderly dependents / rising costs per person...what am I missing here? How do you propose making this all work? |
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There are no stumbling blocks, no problems created. The leave vote won. That was democracy and there is still some of you who are pathetically forgetting that.
I would vote leave again and again and again. I don’t want our country to be in a corrupted establishment aka the EU. |
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Who here is forgetting that leave won?
There is a difference between that and figuring the future arrangements and prospects for the country post EU membership. You won, no question. Now what? |
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We leave. Simples. :rolleyes:
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What do you actually think of the evidenced-based facts that Chloé has presented to us all today? |
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I do differ with you slightly, I have even had dreadful experiences with some myself but on the whole I do see their contribution to the UK as a net gain. Some bad apples, sure. Though I would never cast such a wide net / dispersion over all of them. |
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I have no desire to answer questions about trade agreements, I just want the country to leave the EU as was democratically chosen to do so and by leave, I mean do so in it's entirety, no single market, no customs union, as staying in any of these, this is not leaving the EU. This desire to answer banal questions from Remainers about future trade agreements with the EU, as if it is some attempt to export some regret to vote leave, make no mistake - I have no regrets with my vote and never will. |
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Hardly, I never asked you / or implied that you should regret anything about your vote.
I did say about future arrangements in reply number 2281: Quote:
Though if you see it as Banal I guess don't bother, no skin off my nose. (Wasn't just about trade btw, arrangements go much farther). But that is fine, and don't worry - I won't ask again. |
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You could say that them doing the jobs we don't want is contributing though as it opens up a new tier of jobs for British workers but does that repair the damage they did to the British workforce 20 odd years ago when they were living 5 to a house and undercutting us left right and centre, back then I was shouting leave from the roof tops to anyone that'd listen but in my experience they're not like that anymore, which is why I voted remain, that and no one had a convincing enough reason that leaving would be worth all the effort, they don't want to work 300 hours a month anymore or share houses with half a dozen others. The perception I mentioned is that they're the reason you can't get a doctors appointment, which when you think about it is nonsense, young, fit people don't need to visit doctors regularly, the reason you have to phone the doctor in the morning for your appointment now is because of the huge number of appointments that are missed and the other one is housing but again that's not entirely their fault as they're not in charge of housing policy or infrastructure, they're imo being blamed for things that should be laid at governments door oh and the other thing is how hard working they are compared to us, I've never met one yet whose work is consistently up to my standard or one who does the hours I do either |
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Should we leave the EMA? Should we leave the EASA? Should we leave ERASMUS? Should we leave Horizon 2020? Should we leave Euratom? Should we leave Europol? Should we negate the Good Friday Agreement? These are not banal questions. These affect medicines, education, science, nuclear materials, crime and peace in Northern Ireland. Leaving the European Union is easy to say but it permeates so much of how this country runs that unravelling it all is more complex than saying we are leaving. Something needs to replace what we have now. |
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Though it depends, to live in the UK do you have to have employment, or just means to support yourself? If it is the latter and they can fend for themselves, I see no issue if they don't earn enough to pay tax. Let them live. Quote:
Technology should be able to do a lot of that in time to come but that is not yet available...for the mean time, don't immigrants fill that void? Like you said, you don't feel like doing it...so let someone who does I suppose. Quote:
In regards to the latter it really boils down to your philosophy of government and whether you want them to take care of your ever need (like housing / healthcare etc). In regards to stuff like young / fit and healthy people etc, this is the point that I was trying to make to OLD BOY in regards to payment of retirement and social care but to go even farther...who is it who uses these services? You are absolutely spot on, it is not those of us that are young (I just turned 30 last year) and have a lot of care needed / ailments at our age. We not only do pay into the system (immigrant or otherwise) but we also don't require constant cradle to grave / womb to tomb babysitting. I am not saying that older folks do, either but it is thanks to all of us who do pay into it now (without using it as much) that the older generation do have a chance. I have a doctors appointment every 3 to 6 months - I don't use it more than 3 or 4 times a year. At most I need scripts for cream on my hands and some drops for my eyes as far as regular use of a surgery. That is it. Those of us (wherever we come from) who are younger rarely even use the services that we pay so much for. Don't even get me started on social housing....immigrants from Eastern Europe all use private accommodation - they are not even eligible for government assisted housing. We (younger people) not only pay for all this stuff, but we don't even use it. |
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But you will...
I, and my kids (now aged 26 and 30) no longer attend school, but I have no issues paying tax to let others attend, because, as a civilised society*, it’s about the long-term benefit for all, not just the short-term impact on me... *US healthcare system vs U.K. healthcare system - no one in the U.K. has been bankrupted by medical bills as against the approx. 600k per year over the pond |
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Yeah I suppose that is correct...so tell me, when it comes to our turn to use it, what will be left of it if there is no-one left to pay for it?
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It hasn't stopped entirely but the drop is very steep / drastic. I think that the TFR is down to 1.8 now and the replacement rate needs to be above 1.91 if memory serves so for now it is fine as there is a large(r) number of child bearing aged women to have those 1-2 kids (as opposed to the fewer who needed to have like 5 or 6) but when those numbers drop back down and the population shrinks...then what? It won't be too long before that happens.
One other thing...looking at your sidebar where it says that you are 61...so you would have been born in 1957 or so, correct? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41685693 According to variable and different methodology, people born now, or even when your life is expected to perish will be at least 15 years longer. Sporadically the age of retirement / pension availability has grown but ultimately if people live longer and longer, less and less pay into the system and the tax revenues fall then... As it is now, there is like a ratio of 1:1 for worker and retiree, right? Also the bigger question is, who will do the actual work? In healthcare and social care / mobility hospices etc, technology will help a lot, but in time...in the mean time? As Britain ends up with so many seniors who will actually look after them? (If money wasn't even an issue?) |
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TFR was 1.79 in 2016 (latest stats available).
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Well, it's fiscal madness for anyone to expect to live longer and expect the same pension, so working for 40-45 years and expecting a pension to pay out for 30-35 years isn't going to happen - it's already started, as my pension age has gone from 65 to 66, and my wife's from 60-66; I would imagine in about 35-40 years time, that will increase to around 70 (it's planned to rise to 68 between 2037 and 2039). On the bright side, you will (on average) be living longer, so swings and roundabouts. The FT forecasts there will be 2.9 workers for every 1 retiree by 2050. Quote:
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IMO, 2.9 to 1 in 2050 is not too bad, that is also accounting for a significant chunk of old people dying by then, too though.
It is indeed hit and miss but one thing that is being factored in is that people are incrementally seeing their age of retirement increasing. With the FT, is it factoring the UK without being a member of the EU though only as that is where I can see a lot of the LF (that would pay for the retirement fund(s)) dissipating into nothing. This is where I can see a major headache coming up and if the UK does indeed leave the EU within a year or two, I can see the population plummeting. This is where I can see everything going wrong as per population actuaries. For example, Japan has a plummeting population and they only allow 50 000 people to migrate into the country every year but people who are elderly there are dying off at a pretty steep rate now. Even though their medical technology is the greatest in the world and advances at the greatest rate those elder generations are going to die some point and as that happens the numbers at which they habit the land are going to fall off a cliff. Btw I was wondering if it was 1956 or 1957 only 1957 is apparently meant to be the happiest year on record: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...year-ever.html Though that would likely be for people living then, not born then. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/w...year-ctx8whpgw Happy times! |
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There's an interesting poll out from YouGov for the BBC on Englishness. One question threw up answers that I didn't expect - was England better in the past, best now or will be better in the future?
For better in the past, you see 35% of remain voters saying yes against 64% of leave voters. What stood out though is that 20% of remain voters said the country will be better in the future vs. 15% of leave voters. This is the opposite of what I would have expected. Here is the BBC summary - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44142843 Here is the underlying data - https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.ne...or_website.pdf see the bottoms of page 4, 5 and 6 for the results of that question |
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I am proud to be British, and think our best days are ahead of us, but, like a lot of non-English Brits, get peeved over our apparent non-existence when things like this are discussed. Remember, it was the British Empire, ruled over by Great Britain, not the English Empire - people hark back in longing for something that didn’t exist. (speaking as some who has lived in England for 3/4’s of my life, served in the Armed Forces, and has 2 offspring born and bred in Yorkshire) |
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This leave voter is not pessimistic about leaving. I am more pessimistic the longer we stay in the corrupted pile of garbage. ---------- Post added at 22:09 ---------- Previous post was at 22:05 ---------- Quote:
And YES they are banal questions. |
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I'm 64, lived and worked in the UK all my life. I have never ever* been asked to take part in one of these 'representative sample' type polls.
I guess they're really 'selective' on who they think a representative sample is . . * I'm not including the countless silly and inane 'polls' that many websites ask you to take part in. If I'm browsing a site selling mock tudor bathroom fittings I have no interest about whether James Brown wrote better songs than Lionel Richie :D:D |
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Only one poll mattered and that was the official one, almost two years ago now. |
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If it is an open poll, for example I am pretty sure if you found the right site (Daily Express for example) you could get 90+% of readers to vote yes on anything anti-EU. If you asked Femen activists whether women should ever wear anything from the waist up I am sure the numbers would be pretty high against the idea. Some sites require a log in verification that one user has one vote and a bunch of them (like broadsheet papers) require a subscription, and of those some are so methodical that they also have their own polling firm, on top of that. That makes it at least a little more accurate. Though as and when there is a balanced viewership there is likely to be a more accurate representation of the public - unless it is over something so obvious as say...nazis and Hitler. Then you really have to get into the alt style sites like Stormfront to find anything positive, the other way. |
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...g-hardest-hit/ You can speculate as to the reasons why, the NHS being run into the ground by the Govt. might just be a factor. |
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Bush replied and said that the only poll he cared about was the one in the fall of 04. I thought that his response was slightly crass to be honest and he could have shown some love for the millions of Iraqis who dipped their fingers into purple dye. None the less though, his statement was accurate for his own political system ; Presidents are term tied / limited and he had won re-election. There was no more for him to win so that argument holds water. In your case though, you keep saying that it is the one poll that mattered only it isn't just that, is it? There is still the future relationship etc (existing debt / monies owed and so on) but it is more than that. Every person used their democratic vote under our parliamentary system to vote for a member of parliament, every one of them gets a say to vote on the final deal. If they vote no and the UK does not accept the deal, is that not then the most important vote all of a sudden? If a referendum on the final deal is agreed to, is that not the poll / vote that matters? If a second referendum is held, is that not the vote that matters? If the UK wishes to rejoin the EU is it not the vote to rejoin that becomes the most important? In a binding election with a finite ending and a term limit it is one thing to gloat that you won ; in the US once the electors vote and the House of Representatives affirms that is that. Once a President is sworn in that ends that unless he leaves office (by whatever means) but either way, the term is fixed. With the EU vote it is nothing of the sort - all of it is fluid per the discretion of UK leaders / the EU / judges on either side etc etc. So as much as the official poll won out a couple years ago (to leave) there is nothing to stop more and more official polls, on the terms that we leave / the option to stay in / to rejoin and on and on. Playing the "we won" card becomes rather obsolete in a scenario where there are countless options, to win back. |
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... all of which is to ignore the elephant in the room, which is that sovereignty rests with the Crown-in-Parliament and everything short of that is, ultimately, only advisory in nature.
Our system doesn’t rest on a written constitution, it has evolved over a millennium and referendums are a very recent and novel imposition on it. It isn’t surprising that nobody quite understands exactly how a referendum result fits into the bigger picture. |
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Oh sure, I get that.
The problem is that politicians can't on the one hand say "your vote wasn't binding because we have a Westminster system of politics where everything is fluid / malleable, so suck it up we're not leaving" but then on the other hand say to the voter "but it's time for the next election so you know that useless vote of yours, come throw it my way so I can represent you again". As much as nobody really cares about the will of the people, it is an entirely difficult thing to say in public unless you plan on retiring / never seeking their vote again. So then you need to start getting creative, like: "Democracy is so important and we value your vote so very much, along with your opinion, that we are going to give you a vote on the final deal, too!" Brexit means Brexit, right? Then the will of the people / Democracy means just that - they should get a vote on it all in the hope that they scupper it. Democracy is just an excuse. And ultimately it boils down to that: Excuses mean excuses. It was non binding alright - just an advisory poll but ultimately another advisory poll may be the only way out of this fiasco in which politicians can save face / still look to get re-elected. Or they could all retire I suppose. |
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And how many polls do we get until those who don't like the result get what they want? - Democracy does not work that way, I stand by what I said, one poll mattered and we are leaving, as it should be. You cannot have another poll every couple of years. The vote was binary, it was either leave or remain and no where in-between - leave won, so leave we must. That's Democracy and that is not an excuse either. |
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https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1528249847
This Poll image Says it all really... and this is a poll created by a Remainer. But dang, look at how many flips from Remain to leave there are vs. Leave to Remain. :rofl: |
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I.e. after the referendum there was a GE and we each had a vote for member of parliament - they each get a deciding vote on the end bill. We get a vote that way I suppose. Though the Lib Dems have been proposing a referendum on the final deal... Would you like that as a possible way for the people to approve / disapprove of the deal? ---------- Post added at 03:29 ---------- Previous post was at 03:18 ---------- Quote:
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Kind of like two men running from a bear - no-one has to run faster than the bear. They just have to run faster than the other man.... In an ideal world, we wouldn't need a poll every other year. Just one until the side that you were backing, won. You are already at that place but I feel like you actually feel like leaving is the correct thing to do, on principle. I just took umbrage at the whole it is "Democracy" at work line - if you back it as a matter of principle then to hell with what the people think! You think that leaving the EU is the right thing to do? If the people voted remain, you would still think that leaving was the right thing to do, right? Even if a majority of people voted to leave or remain, it won't change many opinion of ideologues / those that are polarized either way and that is why I asked what your opinion on a future relationship should be. (Not just Trade, but security / space exploration / travel and migration / law and justice, etc etc etc). Again, I took issue with your calling it a banal question which is why I didn't ask any further. Though I do stand by my original statement of this not going well. You say that it is not a fiasco...fine, how would you describe the progress of the process though. Because the word excruciating comes to mind. |
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A poll can happen at anytime and is just used as a marker to gain an idea of people's thoughts. |
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Well it's foreign fruit we'll be eating this summer, whilst ours rots in the fields #Brexit
European fruit pickers shun Britain - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44230865 |
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Not often I agree with JC but I think he's nailed it here!
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The Government is certainly giving Northern Rail, Thameslink and TSB a run in the incompetence stakes! :rolleyes: Couple of Brexit developments to note: 1) Theresa May is engaged in a serious row with David Davis, Brexit secretary, over claims that she wants to tie Britain to the EU customs union indefinitely as part of a “backstop” plan on the Irish border. He doesn't like the indefinite nature of the backstop https://www.ft.com/content/bb75ccba-...3-0c230fa67aec 2) UK military secondments to EU to cease after Brexit. https://www.ft.com/content/ab758f42-...b-4acfcfb08c11 3) Government warned British cars 'won't qualify for free trade deals' after Brexit Quote:
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Have to say Corbyn wiped the floor with Theresa today at PMQ's. Easy target though, as she still doesn't have a clue what she's going with Brexit or her infighting party. Talk of shortages in the shops and fuel before Brexit day, start stocking up now. I've got an allotment, I'm ok for veg ! Dig for V̶i̶c̶t̶o̶r̶y̶ Brexit ;) * [Admin Edit: Use proper names and don't use extremely bad language as the name for something!] |
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Wow you're good at searching for old posts - however, irrelevant though - Finding the poll 'interesting', which I have said why, is a lot different to trusting the result, which I never said I did. :)
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(Not that he was a Kenyan, lol...case anyone though this exchange was based on anything but humor). ---------- Post added at 02:55 ---------- Previous post was at 02:33 ---------- Quote:
In regards to polling at least Twitter / non bot related activity is at least based on human activity to some extent and not just totally made up the way he was doing it though for the most part he was not citing polling data. The problem with this day and age is that it comes down to the old adage of "no, but my friend is"...kind of shame. I.e. Question: Would you not vote for / support Sajid Javid as he is brown (to become the next Tory leader / PM) Answer: No Question: Would any of your friends / family refuse to vote for / support Javid as he is brown (to become next Tory leader / PM) Answer: Absolutely! The advantage of questioning like that in the first person is that generally if it involves a contentious issue people prefer to remain anonymous. So in some ways, places like social media, are a safe haven - they can do it without leaving a trail of who they are. So, looking at the way the likes of Farage / Rees Mogg etc are treated, it is a lot easier not to admit to having similar views as them than be tarred with the same abuse usually. That is why I was saying to Mick, to hell with what the popular thinking is. I support JRM 100% of the way. I don't agree with him on anything to do with the EU, but I don't care one single bit. I am a Catholic and so is he ; he is opposed to abortion in all circumstances and would defend the faith any day - I hope he takes over the leadership of the party and becomes PM. Even if it wasn't perfect for me, it is his principle that I love. He won't flip flop / cow tow to the latest fade and you know where he stands. In that sense, I am proud of my views / would defend them any day - some folks rather do it through the prism of anonymity too, and that to me is more of a sign of the issues we discuss / their nature than the validity of the poll every single time. I still stand by the fact that a lot of entities are bias in their views ; Daily Mail and Express are two that come to mind. They use traditional methods of polling where they at least know the details of those polled - even if they use independent polling companies. Their verification is subjective, their editorializing is selective and they use whatever bias they can to sell their point. When done completely anonymously though, you tend to get the real truth as people do feel they have no backlash to fear. This is the one thing that I would wish Brits would lose most - the passive aggressive side of life, just quietly going along saying that everything has nothing to do with us. |
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I find this strange to say the least .. |
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Anyone in the world can click and vote and may spam/bot accounts end up voting. Also she said hijacked not hacked. |
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Hardline Brexiteers like Guido Fawkes are going the full gammon over this, but TBH as a ‘real’ Brexiteer who has wanted the U.K. out of the EU for the last 25+ years, I’m content to take a couple of extra years to get it right. Davis was quite right to demand an end date be hard-wired into the plan, but nobody is going to get everything they wanted out of this, and insisting that everything would stop dead next March simply wasn’t realistic.
This is a sensible backstop position that should take the heat out of the Irish border issue. Even if there’s no deal concluded by next March, the U.K. has committed to tariff alignment for a further 2 years, negating the need for border checks of any kind, and easing trade arrangements with the continent also. Under this scenario, there will only be complications if the EU chooses to create them. |
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Sounds like wishful thinking to me .. |
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A few off the cuff questions . .
Does anyone believe that either staying or leaving will cause a massive uplift in the amount of housing available, and therefore cure the homeless problem we have? Does anyone believe that either staying or leaving will lead to a huge reduction in the criminal activities we are now seeing so much of? Does anyone believe that either staying or leaving will create many thousands of new jobs (that don't depend on benefit top-ups)? Does anyone believe that either staying or leaving will turn the NHS into an institution that manages its role and finances efficiently? Does anyone believe that either staying or leaving will massively increase the standard of education in this country? in my opinion, for the little it's worth, it makes no difference if we stay or leave, we'd actually lost years ago. |
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Did you get those from "Leading Questions R Us"?
You missed out "have you stopped beating your wife?" and "why is everything so bad?"... |
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So the basic question is this, do you have faith alone which will get you into heaven or must you earn your way into it, through deeds? In Galations 2: 16 Paul says this: Quote:
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Now for what I personally care about as a Christian I would expect to come naturally to my every day life. It doesn't always, but as I have Christ in my heart my desire is to do His work. Because the faith is there, the rest comes as second nature. Now in regards to JRM, the shared faith leads me to believe that his deeds will follow suit - he has Christ in his heart (which I truly believe that he does) and I believe that his acts will follow accordingly. Given every chance he got, he refused to abandon his Catholic principles and stood firm in his opposition to gay marriage and abortion. He had every single chance to say something like "it is a settled matter" etc etc, but he did not. This is what I was saying to Mick...public opinion is one thing but so long as your own principles do not get compromised along the way, you are good. You mentioned the future of our children in your post so firstly yes, I am a mother, and I have a 10 year old thank you for asking. I believe that he (specifically) is the member with the most value for the sanctity of life. For me, that is the single biggest issue and most important (along with faith in general) and yes, that over-rides the other issue(s) that you have mentioned. If we leave the EU...oh well. So long as he defines that a child must never be killed in the womb, I will support him. This is also something I can share with politicians of other denominations, within the same faith - like Frank Fields who is a politician from the other side of the aisle. He is an outstanding advocate for the poor and needy (again as Christ taught us) and he has campaigned tirelessly for the more vulnerable in our society (the disabled, elderly, poor etc). He also was a phenomenal supporter of the troops, taking care of those who were injured in combat through the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and has been supportive of the mission there all along. It can even go beyond the denomination - my former MP was Matthew Offord (until I moved). He was opposed to the gay marriage bill, he supports Israel beyond question, and ironically enough, opposed to the EU like the two others above, too. I am in favor of EU membership for Britain but ultimately it is not important for me as an issue (insofar as priorities go). You are right, I do not agree with JRM on the EU and some other stuff. But I do agree with him (and the two above) on God the father (though Offord being Jewish only sees the son as a prophet) and the protection of every unborn child, first and foremost. JRM is my denomination and I would love a Roman Catholic PM but beyond the faith, all 3 have supported restricting abortion or banning it altogether, they all supported the Iraq war and have been phenomenal supporters of Israel, too. Field does a great deal for the poor and the needy (as Christ taught us), Offord does a great job defending the constituency with the largest Jewish population in the country and even though I may not agree with all 3 on Europe I don't particularly care - God before country any day. Because if you have the faith, the acts that the Father told us to carry out, will follow naturally. |
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but whatever, it really makes no difference to the state of the UK whether we're in or out. |
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Boris think's we're heading for Brexit 'meltdown', so that's all good ! ;) ---------- Post added at 11:21 ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 ---------- http://www.itv.com/news/2018-06-05/p...exit-is-wrong/ Quote:
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---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:13 ---------- Quote:
If you keep adding water to a bath, it will overflow. Same principle, really. |
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