Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

we may have been in front of the side or in front the rear of the bus or outside the inside or even inside the outside it doesn't really matter we are all going in the same direction on the same bus ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Don't forget, they have been 'constantly whining" for years, some of them posting 100's or even 1000's of messages on this forum on how bad the EU is and how we should leave, etc.

Now when the (flawed) vote was taken to Leave, and the sides are reversed, if you argue against leaving the EU, you are "undermining and challenging the result", you are a traitor and on and on.

The hypocrisy stinks ..

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

[QUOTE=ianch99;35872082]Don't forget, they have been 'constantly whining" for years, some of them posting 100's or even 1000's of messages on this forum on how bad the EU is and how we should leave, etc.

Now when the (flawed) vote was taken to Leave, and the sides are reversed, if you argue against leaving the EU, you are "undermining and challenging the result", you are a traitor ....

flawed ?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Just shows you didn't know what you voted for

yes we will leave the EU that's what the referendum ask.

I didn't see anything in the question regarding freedom of movement, take up that with negotiaton and vote leave if you feel that was what you were promised

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

... and this is the claptrap people are right to moan about. Migration and the free movement of people was overwhelmingly the primary concern of those who voted to leave, the EU debate and the general election before it. It was that concern and the resulting surge in votes for UKIP which got us the referendum in the first place. Up until that point HMG had no real interest in asking us anything. To claim that's not the case or wasn't understood by those who voted out is patent nonsense. Referenda are by definition binary choices 'yes/no', 'in/out' - the fine detail of what's entailed in those decisions is never a matter for the referendum but for what follows. We voted to leave - not to stay in some of it and slightly less in some of the what's left. What part of that can't you accept?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

they[remoaners] can't accept any of it they thought it was like voting on the x factor [if you don't like the outcome you can change it] first time in their lives that reality kicked in -poor little luvvies ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Let's hope that direction isn't of a cliff

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

or even off a cliff ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

:)

http://www.progressive.org/sites/def..._lemmings2.gif

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Then you should have paid more attention to such an important subject .When we leave the EU we leave the single market ,that was made clear by Brussels ,we leave the single market we end freedom of movement .We can of course decide for ourselves how much freedom of movement we want to accept in the future ,that is the beauty of leaving the EU ........we get to decide not Brussels

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

tell that to Norway and Switzerland

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Norway and Switzerland agreed to freedom of movement as part of the trade deal they negotiated. It was their choice. Other countries have trade agreements without freedom of movement.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The point is that it was their choice ,they want freedom of movement ,we have had it ,we don't want it anymore

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Exactly.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

50.3% actually voted in Switzerland against freedom of movement.
The Swiss Government understands that European countries (that don't plan to join the EU) have to have freedom of movement if they're to trade freely with it. So the Swiss Government did not implement the referendum result. It's a big issue there and may be resolved by...another referendum!
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...lenge-ivzgefr8
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ations-with-eu

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You are trying to equate chalk with cheese. The Swiss constitution is totally different to ours.

For instance:

and

Our constituion does not allow for that.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You're going off on a tangent, which at least is better than off a cliff edge. :)
The statement from martyh was that "The point is that it was their choice, they want freedom of movement"
I pointed out that a small majority of the Swiss do not want freedom of movement. How that suddenly becomes a compare-and-contrast two countries' constitutions debate I really don't know!

Anyway, anyone who doesn't like Mr Carney may enjoy this piece in today's Guardian. https://www.theguardian.com/business...lect-committee

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Brexit: Government could face legal challenge over single market

"The question of whether leaving the European Union means automatic withdrawal from the single market could be the subject of a legal challenge."
http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-gov...arket-10675569

"The basis of the legal action would be that the government has an opportunity to stay within the single market, but is rejecting it.

It will claim that Croatia, by joining the EEA nine months after the EU, has proven that the two organisations are separate, so leaving one need not mean leaving the other.

“The fact that the UK dismisses these arguments out of hand suggest that it is deliberately aiming for a hard Brexit outside the single market. This option was not on the referendum ballot paper,” he said, calling the legal challenge a “game-changer on every level”."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-single-market

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

These legal challenges (or threat of) are doing nothing other than attempting to override the democratic will of the majority. The Government has stated it respects the result of the referendum and will invoke article 50.

It's about time remoaners accepted that. Let them get on with it and give them room to negotiated the best deal for this country instead of trying to hamstring them.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Did you read the article ?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yes.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What's annoying me is that remoaners are complaining about the lack of an exit strategy and the time it will take ,has it occurred to them that if they just let the government carry on exercising the will of the majority then they will be able to formulate a strategy and get the job done in a timely manner .All these court cases and attempts to stop Brexit will only hurt the country ,possibly more than brexit will ever do

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

1) there is no exit strategy
2) still needs to be legal, this isn't a blank canvas "to do what they want"

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The legal challenge I referenced is not about Article 50 but about Articles 127 and 128 which are about the EEA.
I'm no lawyer but I think the Government should win this case. I can't see how the UK can remain in the EEA without an agreement on how much it contributes to the EU. I hope it does as this will be better for the UK.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

then stop trying to prevent it ,let the government get on with it

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm holding nothing up, awaiting for that bill to be put through parliament so it's all done legally

Anyway we going to be "even more closer" to Poland post brexit so stuff is happening
PM: UK 'to be even closer to Poland' after Brexit
http://news.sky.com/story/pm-uk-to-b...rexit-10676095

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We cannot remain in the EEA as we are not in the EEA. We are presently in the EU.

Membership of the EEA is something that may be negotiated during the negotiations of our EU exit.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Someone's been caught with documents again: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...P=share_btn_tw

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Where are you getting your information from? If you're a member of the EU you're a member of the EEA. https://www.gov.uk/eu-eea

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

what if you leave the EU what are you a member of then ?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Good question and that's what this potential legal challenge is about.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

i have in front of me a copy of dodgy Dave's pamphlet [the 8 million quids worth of explanation] it says
no other country has managed to secure significant access to the single market without having to
follow eu rules over which we have no real say

pay into the eu

accept eu citizens living and working in their country .......it goes on to explain a canada type deal which at the time was still in negotiation after 7 years

"this is your decision the government will implement what you decide"
what not clear about leaving?? the remain campaign spelled it out at considerable length and cost ?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Nah, that's just more swivel eyed paranoid Brexiteer nonsense don't you know. There's no way that anyone on the pother side would dare to try to derail the process now, it just isn't happening except in your imagination. The only people moaning are people like you, everyone else who wanted to remain has completely accepted the outcome of the referendum and won't do anything to undermine it... :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 20:47 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

So simple isn't it. Pity that there's no educating some folks... :banghead: :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think you're referring to the UK Government's official advice and not the Remain Campaign.
As we all know, the referendum had a number of weaknesses in its structure - one being that it was only advisory. There may be other issues which the courts will have to decide. That's because British Law works on precedents and there's not many of these around when it comes to leaving the EU.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

"this is your decision the government will implement what you decide"

that's not advice is it .

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's always been described as such. Whether each line of text is advisory is best left to the reader.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Unfortunately it's not an Act of Parliament either. Had they written that into the referendum act then the government's power to invoke article 50 without further reference to parliament would have been beyond question. As it is, they didn't, and, unless the Supreme Court disagrees, it isn't.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm afraid so.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Super, thanks for the clarification

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well at least you know now :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

as a remoaner you could go to the high courts and try to get it changed to something you like :) i believe that's how its done :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

As clear as that non existant exit strategy

Being an educated chap I'm sure he is fully aware of his options :), you may learn something

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think they are exiting via the cake shop so they can "have their cake and eat it" :)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

better than Belgian waffle ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Indeed but Belgian frites are nice though.:drool:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The beer's not bad either. :)

Meanwhile, further east Theresa May's latest confident, the Polish foreign minister spills the beans from his latest talks with her and Boris. "Brexit will not take place earlier than in two to three years. If it takes place at all." Needless to say, this hasn't got down well in some quarters.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/polit...-a3407501.html

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If that "plan" was discussed during official talks then pretty bad to go running to the press about it even if it were true, but given how many times May has said march next year is when article 50 will be invoked i doubt this story. Personally I'm fed up of the whole damn thing and will wait for march if it's invoked then like most I'll be happy if it isn't then time for some protesting.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

So are all the other countries that have trade-only deals with the EU, also "having their cake and eating it"? Of course not.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yes but we want a better deal than them. There isn't a generic trade deal, they differ.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

if its not i think there will be rioting and civil unrest on a massive scale as the people realise they have been betrayed[listen to me i've joined project fear:shocked: ]

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The only things were are looking for are reciprocal arrangements of one sort or another. Not a one-sided deal. The only other thing we are looking for is the status of ex-pats. That is a consequence of already being in the EU. Not an issue for anybody currently outside it.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We need a better deal, I heard an expert say that most trade deals don't include service industries only goods

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That's what those notes photographed yesterday suggested which included:
"Our criteria are clear — more open the better.
Manufacturing relatively straightforward.
Services harder — because French hoping for business."

---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

Brexit legal challenge: Theresa May 'faces 11-0 defeat in Supreme Court' over her Article 50 vote appeal

"Professor Zander, Professor Emeritus of Law at the London School of Economics, gave his stark prediction in an analysis of Ms May’s Article 50 case in the legal magazine Counsel."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7445851.html

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Agreed. Each country cuts its own deal with the EU or indeed other trading nations. This is where the remoaners get it wrong asking are we going to have a "Norway", "Switzerland" or "Iceland" deal as if they are the only ones available.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

According to Wikipedia, Iceland's application to join the EU has been "frozen". :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

http://news.sky.com/story/boris-john...rexit-10678355



---------- Post added at 22:10 ---------- Previous post was at 22:01 ----------

Personal view is not the Government view but at what point do we consider the idea Boris isn't a genius behind an eccentric front but actually just quite eccentric.....

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What you mean like we thought Brown knew what he was doing until it all went pear shaped amd we found out Labour had left the pantry bare? :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It didn't come as a surprise to me. I think he came down at the last minute in favour of Brexit as it would further his career, in contrast to people like Farage and Gove who are passionate Leavers.
Like a lot of people in the UK, he was probably not totally convinced of the arguments either way but he made a rationale choice. I don't think it makes him a genius or eccentric, just a politician's politician.

---------- Post added at 00:37 ---------- Previous post was at 00:36 ----------

History now looks more kindly upon Mr Brown as the man who saved us from the perils of the Eurozone.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

This is all doing my head in. March can't come quick enough.

The deal on the table was stay in the EU or Leave the EU, nothing in between.

It was made quite clear that the a leave vote was a vote to leave the single market.

We leave the single market and then negotiate a new relationship, whatever that may be.

But the starting point was a complete break. If you didn't understand that then that's a failure of your own due diligence. If you voted as a protest vote or some other reason then again your problem.

All this posturing and petulance from the EU is just that, posturing and petulance.

Let's get on with it and get the formal discussions underway.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I agree with you that the way it works is we leave the EU and the negotiate a deal with it once we have agreed the leaving deal. The talks from March 2019 onwards will include when we leave the EU, rights of British citizens living in the EU and vice versa, the substantial Euro Brexit bill, EU officials’ pensions, borders and the impact the UK leaving has on international treaties.

When it comes to leaving the single market that point is ambiguous as the UK has a separate agreement to be in the EEA. It is possible this point will need to be tested in the Courts. Another aspect is that there were contradictory messages before and after Brexit as to if the intention was to stay/rejoin the Single Market.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The Government wants to ease into the new arrangement understandably. It would be a lot more damaging to sever all ties completely and then slowly repair parts of it. The turmoil for companies, people and institutions currently using agreements/laws in place would be immense, even something like the legal status of migrants would cause massive headaches if we were to simply leave and have nothing in place.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Anytime :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I can't speak for 'history' but I'll never remember him kindly. ;) I remember him as the 'prudent' Chancellor who sold off much of the UK's gold reserves at a rock bottom price in favour of stuff like Euros, who used PFI to keep massive borrowing off the books and whose ineffective financial oversight allowed the UK's major banks to bring the country to its knees. There's a thread about it all around here somewhere so I'll leave it at that... ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Which given today's exchange rate a good deal

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Really and how long is that going to last do you think compared to the value of Gold? Yeah I'd really rather have a vault full of Euros than a vault full of gold bullion... :rofl:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I like this idea: http://news.sky.com/story/uk-could-p...rexit-10678735

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Admin type costs would be one thing, but the bulk of payments are to prop up the rest of the EU. The rest of the EU gets access to the UK market. If it was a one-sided deal, then a payment would balance things out, but it's not one-sided.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yes that is certainly much more agreeable.:tu:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

it was meant as a joke, try to take it as such

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The irony about this sort of deal is that the EU pays into the EU budget, accepts its legislation but cannot influence the legislation.

But the bigger picture is this - are Boris Johnson and David Davis preparing people for a soft Brexit with freedom of movement and paying into the the EU coffers? This will go down well with a lot of the country but not Farage and friends.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm not sure that we'd have to accept it's legislation (apart from certain manufacturing standards of goods for the EU market and such like)
We wouldn't have to accept immigration legislation etc and would be able to trade with the rest of the world

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We wouldn't have to accept the social chapter stuff.

If we would have to accept immigration would depend on the deal although I imagine we would have that as a red line. If it's membership or very close to that then I suspect we would remain in the customs union and therefore no trade with the rest of the world other than those with an existing EU deal. It goes back to the 'Member of' vs 'Access to' debate.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Yep. The more I look at it the more I think that they should have invoked article 50 straight away and stuff the consequences. :(

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It would focus people's minds on what needed to be agreed rather than faffing around, like at the moment.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Trade deals take a long time and they involve impositions upon your national laws and regulations. It would be the same even if we left, severing all existing ties, and then tried to regain it afterwards.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Bah, this thread is full of remoaners grasping at mummy's EU apron strings because it is their only, feeble hope :D.

Brexit means Brexit. Out means out. The exit arrangements can be mutually beneficial or not; the EU can decide and we'll go about our business with the rest of the world.

Let the Walloons or some other mob cut off the European nose to spite its face. Remoaners and Walloons are good bedfellows: tyrannical minorities.

We don't want soft anything; we don't need to suck up to continentals. The majority voted for out and that is what we will have, nothing less.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

At least then everyone would be looking forwards, to the future and actually making deals etc
Rather than what we have now - remoaners trying to slow down or scupper brexit or shouting "tell us what brexit will look like"....as if the govt has a crystal ball. :rolleyes:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

And not worry about all the retired Brits living on the Continent? That's a bit risky isn't it?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If we had a better idea of what it looked like then we would have a clearer idea of what to do. Asking for what it looks like isn't an unreasonable request.

---------- Post added at 15:14 ---------- Previous post was at 15:14 ----------

I am confident both EU citizens here and UK citizens there will be fine. Purely from a logistics point of view it's too difficult to do anything else.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Love the trolling :)

Looks like your "Brexit Means Brexit" Government ministers don't agree with you:

David Davis: UK may pay for access to EU single market

Boris Johnson tells ambassadors he 'supports freedom of movement'

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

There's a great article in the Financial Times that explains why the Government is taking this approach. Google "Who the UK really is negotiating with over Brexit" to read it free of charge.

It includes the statement "No, her true Brexit opponents are the UK’s media and politicians and, by extension, the public. Mrs May and her government are in an intense negotiation to obtain approval from those to whom they are, in theory, accountable. This is the settlement which matters most. The actual exit terms with the EU are of secondary importance."
https://www.ft.com/content/36e5b0e9-...9-dd2babcf2d80

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

i would rather have a vault full of beef bouillon than euro's :rofl:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I doubt boris has any real belief in anything to do with brexit given he only got involved to further his agenda and nothing whatsoever to do with what was best for the UK. Too much pandering to remain will make the negotiations a total waste of time and hamstring us too much to get anything half decent.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If we are going to have to accept freedom of movement and paying money to the EU for the privilege of trading with them why the hell did we just have a referendum to get away from all that? Enough of all this crazy talk a more ludicrous scenario i have yet to hear

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If you wait until March 2021 you may hear a more ludicrous one. :D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Its not trolling, its advice :p:.

You worry-wart remoaners ought to just quietly carry on working 9 to 5 and pay your taxes because that's what you do best and is what you're needed for. Governance and leadership should be left to people who can handle it: that's everyone with the foresight and confidence to vote Leave.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I suspect paying them for access is one of the better outcomes if it is in lieu of something else. Money is simpler and is likely to cause a fuss for the Government. This doesn't mean we'll have freedom of movement.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What's the point of a single market that countries can buy into ? it defeats the whole purpose of the single market imo

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We could have a better negotiating hand if the vote in Italy is "no" and the banking institutions there suffer. Another good reason why May didn't start negotiations to leave straight away.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I imagine it's access to rather than member of. In other words we get better trade terms than we would normally get. I don't know really, I don't think they do, it's just something we could do to help get the best deal possible.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You don't think she might have an idea or two about how to handle things do you?:rolleyes:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We shouldn't pay for access to the single market and if push comes to shove we walk away entirely, the french and the germans already have teams going to financial institutions in the city of london to try and get them to move operations to the continent. We're not allowed to have independent trade deals till we've left but they can come over on a poaching trip anytime they want yeah there's that well known EU fairness in operation. Yes i know 48% voted to remain but more voted to leave and a lot voted leave to get out of the whole damn thing not bits of it and if we carry on the way we are going with every detail having to be revealed and every strategy known we should bin the whole lot and just give it up and stay in the utopia till it falls apart which isn't going to be that long. I wish i had the cash to emigrate because this country is a complete mess.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It would work fine for us ,best of both worlds sort of until the rest of Europe decide they want the best of both worlds .I certainly don't think Brussels would entertain such an idea as it attacks the core principles of the single market and the EU .Either we stay 100% in the EU as we are now or we 100% leave ,there can be no half measures

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

We should pay if we think it's in our economic interest to do so. We need to be pragmatic and calculating here, walking away to prove a point or some misplaced notion of pride would be silly. We might not have to pay, it may not be worth it but if we think we should and it would be a net gain then go ahead.

If it involves privileged deals with the single market then all the better to keep the banks too.

We'll be out of the EU but there are many other agreements we can have with Europe. Europe as a bloc is our single biggest trading partner and is right on our doorstep, we are tied to them no matter what. So we need to work out what the relationship will be and maybe paying a fee for access to single market as part of a tailored arrangement will define that relationship post-Brexit. :shrug:

Brexit is happening but what comes next is wide open and we don't know what that will be. There will be downsides and compromises though, same as if we had voted to Remain.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think you may be confusing amelioration and appeasement. We have a much stronger hand than you think. Brexit is only the beginning. Might be worth remembering too that America's new president has taken a cue from the forward-thinking brexit vote.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I found a better article at Chatham House which goes through the process and suggests a more realistic possible outcome.

The part quoted starts about 1/2 way through but the whole article is worth a read.

https://www.chathamhouse.org/publica...it-negotiation

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm sure the Treasury or another department will have models showing the break-even points for contributing to the EU budget. However, whether commonsense economics over-rides political imperatives is another matter. That being said, if there was some kind of soft Brexit which led to the growth of Ukip, this would most likely be at the expense of the Labour Party and not the Conservatives. And the rebirth of the Liberal Democrats would be far less likely. So it could be an attractive option for May if she could keep her party together. A few donations from industry may smooth matters here.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Or pay tariffs? What's the difference?

---------- Post added at 21:36 ---------- Previous post was at 21:26 ----------

This is the very reason I voted remain, if this is the deal, what is the fracken point!

I voted remain but we lost, but I don't want "remain light". Now we've voted out I want hard out.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I suspect that's part of the calculation. Although this would be a flat fee the government pays rather than a cost to everything companies have to face which might discourage investment. If they might have decided that avoiding that cost might be worth the fee.

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:41 ----------

It's a 'hard out' in terms of the EU. This is about Britain's future relationship with Europe. If anyone thought leaving meant a complete rejection of the continent or of globalisation they were wrong.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Presumably less to pay if you pay the EU and a fixed cost so not a direct tax on trade.