Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You sound like idiot MP Chris Loader, he's delighted the supermarkets are struggling and the supply chains are falling apart because we'll all be able to visit the local farmer for our milk just like in the good old days, wonder if the inner city folk have occurred to him at all. You then have David Davis blaming businesses for not being better prepared, you couldn't make it up

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Whilst Frost moans on about a deal he himself negotiated, Ireland and Northern Ireland seem to benefiting at GB's expense.

Republic of Ireland
Northern Ireland
https://encompass-europe.com/comment...rthern-ireland

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I haven’t the inclination to fact check that article, or to research what it’s leaving out as well as what it’s putting in, but its stated editorial aims don’t lead me to assume it’s being even handed.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m not delighted that supermarkets are struggling. I don’t see the comparison.

---------- Post added at 23:28 ---------- Previous post was at 23:24 ----------

He’s moaning about the EU’s ridiculous interpretation of the deal, actually.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I can imagine you are devoting your fact-checking time to some of the more colourful claims coming out of Manchester. ;)

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:35 ----------

International treaties like that aren't open to interpretation.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He got made a Lord on the strength of that deal, we'll have that back if the deals not good enough

To be fair I don't think you are delighted to see them struggling, was just your comment about the farm shop, it reminded me what that idiot said the other day and how he's not been held to account for his moronic words, for the record I don't believe you want anything other than this to be a success, like most of us really for that matter

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I wouldn't count on it.

If it was anything close to a success, Johnson and his foot soldiers would be crowing about it. Anybody old enough to remember, "Yeah, but vaccines!"

Brexit has been downgraded from "sunny uplands" to "no difference in trade" to "understandable adjustments". I shudder to think what the next downgrade will be and genuinely hope there isn't one.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The vaccines delivered by the NHS, which they've also been keen to downgrade and we know what the next downgrade will be, David "thick as mince" Davis came out with it yesterday, it's businesses fault for not planning better, this is the man who bare in mind said it'd be business as usual the day after we left but now because it isn't business as usual instead of taking responsibility he's blaming businesses for not planning better

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Everything is open to interpretation. The sandwich example mentioned earlier comes to mind. The EU choose to require details of the content of each sandwich individually labelled instead of a batch of like sandwiches. How mad is that?

Goods rejected because information was set out in the wrong colour ink - another example.

The devil, as they say, is in the detail.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s funny we know (and accept) capitalism relies on just in time trading but since 2016 private enterprise had to pre-empt the policies of 3 PMs, outcome of 2 GEs, all kinds of transitional arrangements and deals.

At some point - and I’m keen to hear the threshold from those who voted for Brexit - Government is responsible on some level for macroeconomic planning. As I think Hugh has said before we are all in this now regardless of how we voted in 2016.

The cynic in me might just think that for the politicians our economy is secondary to the needs of venture capitalists and tax dodgers. “Hard working families” don’t help you dodge £300,000 stamp duty.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There's been no change in the way that rules for Third Countries are implemented. The way that such rules have been applied has been clear for all to see for years.

The only change has been that we've become a Third Country because of Brexit. Frost and Johnson knew the implications of what the UK signed up to.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You may pray for us to become a third world country, Andrew, but it's not going to happen. If you cannot understand that major change creates problems that then need to be fixed, I'm not sure where you've been all your life.

Putting this in a cable context, when we changed over from analogue to digital, there were major problems with stuttering, pixellation, etc in our area, and I reckon this could well have been a nationwide problem. It went on for months, and customers in my area were asking to go back to analogue, it was so bad.

But the problems got fixed, and look where we are now. It's the same with Brexit. We have problems arising from the change, they will get fixed, and we won't be looking back. You must see that this is not a permanent set of problems, surely!

---------- Post added at 10:33 ---------- Previous post was at 10:29 ----------

To be honest, it could have been better planned, but the disruption caused by the remoaners was such that this was practically imposible. And then, of course, the pandemic hit.

With more time, we could have done so much better, but in the circumstances, the time was simply not there.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

None of this waffle actually tries to remotely address the points I've made.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There’s no but. It absolutely could have been better planned. The opposition parties don’t control the Civil Service. Nor do they control the timescale.

Absolutely we could have done better with more time. But these were active political choices to trigger Article 50 (with no plan) and reject an extension to the transitional period. As you say - the pandemic hit - but an active political choice was made to not use that as reasonable justification for an extension to use that time to plan better. That wasn’t a “remoaner” choice.

So I ask again at what point do you accept the Government are accountable? Five years? Ten? Twenty? Fifty?

You’ve also confused a third country with a third world country in your response to Andrew.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I simply don't agree with your points, Andrew. There are those who go around thinking the end of the world is nigh, and others who have a more positive attitude.

And of course, there's the left wing opposition that just wants to rubbish everything the other side do. There's a clue there as to why Labour is still out of office despite the government's unpopular efforts to deal with the recession (the severity of which was caused by Labour). The Conservatives remain in office and popular because in the end, the majority of people see that the government is heading in the right direction, and actually do listen to the public.

The electorate voted for Brexit, it was implemented (with a faulty deal brought about by remoaners), there are implementation problems and they will be fixed.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The UK was offered a one-year extension by the EU but declined it. Industry constantly asked the government what it needed to plan for but the government didn't know itself.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

“A faulty deal brought about by remoaners” ha ha ha. Remove your blinkers OB. Remoaners weren’t at the table.

The left wing of the Labour Party were probably more keen on Brexit than the centrists and the Lib Dems so your analogy is completely faulty.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The remoaners (and by that I mean remainers who doggedly refused to accept the democratic preference of the electorate) disrupted negotiations to such an extent that planning was almost impossible until we knew which way we were going.

Article 50 was triggered to get things moving and the extension of the period would only have allowed the government's detractors to cause even more mayhem.

Clearly, the government will be held accountable for the success or otherwise of Brexit, but if you ever really thought that everything should be sorted and working perfectly in the first year beyond the transition period, you're living in fairy land.

How long, you ask, before the government should be held accountable? Well, that's a very simplistic question, because it depends what happens. If we manage to get EU co-operation, things should have settled within five years, but if we cannot get agreement we will probably end upmgiving notice of termination of the deal. Clearly, that would lead to some further disruption, and stabilisation should come within a year or two of that.

I am very clear that Brexit is good for the long term future of the UK. Short term problems are the price we pay.

By the way, I have confused nothing.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They're simple facts, Old Boy, not opinions. The EU manages imports from Third Countries* in certain ways.

Great Britain became a Third Country following Brexit hence its exports to the EU are now treated in that manner.

* That's their term for non-EU countries, by the way, akin to third parties.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think most of us remember the chaos caused by the remoaners and you do yourself no credit by denying it. It was touch and go whether we would leave with a deal, without a deal, a deal with conditions attached, etc, etc. How do you make a plan when you don't know what will be agreed and with a reluctant Civil Service?

As for Labour - er - they opposed Brexit as well, actually. Don't try changing history, we were all there at the time, remember? Corbyn didn't know which side he was on half the time, incidentally.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

We thought we had a deal, Andrew.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Annoying isn't it, when someone else's "waffle" doesn't address your waffle;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The chaos? Aside a Westminster pantomime life continued as normal for almost everyone OB.

You are right it was touch and go whether we would leave with/without a deal, with/without conditions. But that only evidences my point about the failure of political leadership not counters it.

That’s quite a slur on the Civil Service to call them “reluctant”. I’m sure there are processes for insubordination, but any long term career Civil Servants will have served Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron, May and Johnson Governments.

The idea that they diligently carried out these tasks for decades and then conspired to scupper Brexit is laughable. And another pathetic attempt at deflection.

Maybe he was considering the subject impartially, rather than being a dogmatic ideologue. There’s many on the Labour left who are no friends of the EU - and Corbyn wasn’t committed to a second referendum until dragged to it by the centrists.

---------- Post added at 11:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

Is there any evidence for this - Boris has the clear parliamentary mandate. How could they possibly cause more chaos than having business completely ill-prepared for what you acknowledge had a range of outcomes until the very end of negotiations?

When? Or will their acolytes simply blame those pesky remoaners for decades to come. “It’d have been great if only we’d got the deal we wanted” might wash for some but at some point preparation (or lack thereof) will severely impact the ability of our economy to rebound.

So we’re on a wing and a prayer and you’re giving them a free decade essentially.

You can be as clear as you wish but your hopes and aspirations count for nothing in the absence of a clear economic strategy to respond to any shocks that can clearly be anticipated.

You have.

I refer you to the earlier posts where Andrew refers to being a Third Country - this is a country outside the EU/Single Market.

Your response refers to Andrew hoping we become a third world country. Clearly in a rush to defend the Government at all costs you failed to make the distinction.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'll take your word for it. ;)

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 ----------

We requested and got a deal outside the Single Market. This means being treated as a Third Country with all the implications for inspections, etc that this entails.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So you accept they were lying when they said

We hold all the cards

We can have our cake and eat it

Easiest deal ever

You don't get to blame the public for living in fairy land for believing what their government told them


Yes it is a very simplistic question and the answer is they'll never be held accountable, they'll blame others just as you have tried to do for their ineptitude and hope enough people believe them and with apologists like yourself they may well get away with it

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It was called Project Fear before Brexit and there was nothing to worry about.

Now, apparently the public should have believed it and it's their fault for believing there would be no problems.

Old Boy might not be familiar with the term "gaslighting" but I am.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

At some point there needs to be planning to respond to our economic needs, not that of venture capitalists. While they can enjoy opportunities for supernormal profits in a period of economic shock (according to Jacob Rees-Mogg’s Dublin based investment firm) that doesn’t work for Hard Working Families, White Van Man and whatever other parodies you have of “ordinary Brits” who face the real world consequences on the ground.

The private sector isn’t going to come up with every solution either. Entrepreneurial spirit doesn’t pay the bills, raising prices does but that has long term consequences itself. How will the Conservatives develop this high skills, high wage economy and ensure it’s not all eroded in inflation? That’s the key question. That needs a plan.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m not sure why you keep repeating this, Andrew - we know!

And as you know, any extension would have given remoaners even more opportunity to cause trouble.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What kinds of trouble? Parliament had a clear majority to leave, and leave under the terms agreed. In what way could a 12 month extension cause problems?

Outside the Westminster pantomime it would have been valuable time for industry. Indeed those with “entrepreneurial spirit” make representations on a number of occasions about the problems that would be faced. For someone who persistently extols the virtues of businesses why would we not listen to them? If our economic recovery is going to be on their backs - and not the Governments - surely they have the most valuable contribution to make?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

IMO quite a few UK businesses contribute to the economy by having their products made in other countries, usually by cheap labour in a factory using fossil fuel energy.

Products are then shipped halfway around the world so we, the consumers, can buy at fantastic prices (although much of it is probably throw away crap) :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

As I see it those businesses will close, the public won't support higher prices to pay these wages when there's a cheaper foreign option, £30 an hour for picking broccoli and we still won't do it and I disagree with you and David "thick as mince" Davis about what industry would and wouldn't have known, I remember them begging for advice and being left to fend for themselves

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But Industry was told by the Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union / Chief Negotiator for Exiting the European Union, David Davis that "There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside".

Are you saying Industry should have planned for things they were told weren’t going to happen?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You said time was against the government so I explained it could have had longer if it had wanted to.

I'm not sure that using inflammatory language (which we've been requested to avoid) makes for a constructive debate Old Boy and I encourage you to rise above it.

With an 80-seat majority, I can't see what trouble could have been caused. Waving a few EU flags in Parliament Square?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

At the rate we’re going, there will be no trade with the EU so there won’t be an alternative cheap labour option. If Macron gets his way, that is!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Apparently, we should now all have believed Project Fear all along and it's our fault for not doing so!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There is no other word I can remember that describes those remainers who won’t accept the democratic decision of the British people.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You'll have to try a bit harder. But the point you're trying to make is void as Johnson had an 80-seat majority.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:19 ----------

The issue was it didn't know as the deal was only signed on Christmas Eve!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He'd be the first to moan if someone called him a brexshitter though

Don't know why you're fixated with the EU, it's a big old world we opened ourselves up to and we'll see how patriotic we really are when it comes to shopping and paying the price

The latest lie they're peddling is that it was all part of their plan all along, wonder why they kept it to themselves and labelled those telling the truth liars and Project Fearmongers

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Just seen this. Exactly. It's the opposite of trouble that would have occurred during this 12-month extension - planning and mitigation.

Unfortunately, these days I struggle to tell the difference between posts from Conservative supporters and posts from Jeremy Corbyn supporters. They all seem to be laying the blame at the door of hardworking British business as a cheap scape goat for their Party's failings.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

So if a Labour Government gets into power (I know, I know, very unlikely, but for the sake of discussion), how would you describe those who spoke out against any policies they implemented, as those policies would have been due to the democratic decision of the British people?

Would they be "traitors"?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's probably not true if you previously only ever imported from or exported to the EU. At worst if you were an exporter, you had to complete Eurostat submissions monthly and that was if you exported a lot.

In my company, we were lucky in that we have an EU based warehouse that shipped to EU and non-EU countries so there was some experience of the requirements for various levels of trade agreement with the EU. This meant we could war game various scenarios from no deal upwards on what might be required to ship to the UK.

The biggest difficulty was that we and our customers didn't know what was going to happen. For trade compliance lovers, our company ships using 'Delivered at Place' or DAP Incoterms meaning that we ship to our customer but they are liable for import clearance and duties. My customers did not know what that would mean to them until the 24th December. They could have some guesses but no clarity until a week before the deal, if any, would come in to effect.

in the meantime, our 12 customer service representatives had to be trained up on trade compliance issues that might or might not happen while at the same time handling the year end rush for orders and invoicing. We also had to sandbox test our order handling system for the most likely scenarios to make sure that they would all work if needed.

My company was lucky in having the resources in place to try and make this all as smooth as possible. Even then, the disruption was considerable with a team of 8 people working on this full time by November 2020. This is why they won an award from our CEO! Smaller companies would not have the resources to make the transition as smooth as it was for my company.

It's much like the old y2k thing - not much happened but that was because many, many people were working in the background to make sure nothing happened

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

A great post - thanks for taking the time to share your practical experience with the Forum.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yes, shame it'll be poo pooed by people who know better coz they read it on Facebook or have a feeling

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That'll be the brexshitters then..:erm:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Semiconductor research, design & fabrication is surely the exact hi tech industry with high salaries that Boris is looking for the country to move to. So, this would appear to be somewhat of an oh dear moment.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58820599#

Of course, to balance, this could be a public fishing trip....

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They're just looking for more money, no other reason. Even if we were still in the EU, I doubt EU money would've been forthcoming for a plant in the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Standard for companies to look for monies when considering investments.

The company's decision to base a move in the EU is clearly attributable to Brexit.

Chipzilla could of been a big big player for UK biz.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are not serious in suggesting that the EU would've contemplated handing over money for investment in the UK, even though EU funding for UK projects was overwhelming funded by the UK anyway. To begin with, 66% of any EU funding was knocked off the rebate, then add in that we made net contributions, then sometimes nation states had to make their own contributions to projects. Only a small part of EU funding ever came from the EU.
No other reason has been mentioned other than any money they might get. Outside of the EU, we can make an offer, within it we couldn't.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Governments are elected on a manifesto which contains a whole range of policies. You cannot choose a selection that you like from the manifesto.

A referendum is different. If you tell people that the majority choice will be honoured, and then fail to honour it, there’s a breach of trust.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That relies on the people returning a Government capable of delivering, which they didn’t do in 2017. There’s no breach of trust, or treachery, at all.

It’s just poisonous, divisive rhetoric ironically from those who should be delighted. Rather than be happy at having left there’s residual bitterness at those who disagreed. Rather than forging our glorious path into the future it’s all “ah but” and “if only”. It’s almost as if this was a more complicated process than some were led to believe.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Agreed, the article is quite explicit on the Brexit link.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The issue is - we chose the preferred option, and others tried to prevent it from happening. That is plainly undemocratic, no matter how you want to spin it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You need to be specific Old Boy in how people tried to prevent it happening.

---------- Post added at 14:47 ---------- Previous post was at 14:38 ----------

It's the government who are in "I told you so" mode to British business when in fact they didn't and now seek to pretend that they warned the country early on of these problems.

Brexit is alas a leaky tyre, not the sunny uplands that John Redwood, David Davis and others pretended it was. But we need an industrial strategy to try and make the best of a very bad job. Unfortunately, apart from some nice Soviet-style slogans "Build back better" "Levelling up", I'm not seeing any robust plans.

For example, all the recent new film studios are great news. But they're in places like Reading, Elstree and Broxbourne. Great for those living around the M25 but not-so-great for levelling up the more deprived parts of the UK.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He lost me at this.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He has no idea, because it wasn't considered due to Brexit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It’s perpetual fodder because, unfortunately, it demonstrates that many people had many different ideas of what leaving would entail and consistently put forward an unrealistic picture of “we hold all the cards”, “German car manufacturers will come to our rescue”. Neither credible positions to hold given the relative sizes of each market.

Now all we have, from some at least, is persistent defection. OB is keen to rehash the debates of 2016-19 all over again. However that doesn’t move us forward. Those people are all gone, the Government had a clear mandate, and has a clear majority. Where’s the plan to transition to this high wage, high skilled economy? It’s a bold move for Boris to talk of decades of a flawed economic model when the Tories have governed for the vast majority of the time it has been implemented.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’d venture to suggest that an outright majority in favour of anything can only come about via a coalition of one kind or another. Members of political parties have their own priorities and are routinely placed by commentators at the left, centre or right of their party’s politics.

Back in 2014 the only Yes campaigner to actually doorstep me was solely interested in getting Faslane closed. Nothing else mattered. But that again was a referendum in which nobody is in a position to promise anything beyond the narrow implementation of the result. At least in broad-church, two-party politics the whole party stands on the manifesto and can be judged against it, whatever the personal priorities of its individual members.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Perhaps so, however it at least then requires an open, honest discussion grounded in reality about expectations rather than the contradictory hopes and dreams of various people who agree on a single narrow point.

Especially if the majority are, on some level, likely to be disappointed with some or all of the outcome.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think that would be extremely hard to achieve in our political system. Referendums are still a novelty in our constitution. Even their implementation crashes headlong into the whole concept of parliamentary sovereignty. An open, honest discussion grounded in reality about expectations might work in the Swiss model where there are more referendums than you can shake a stick at, on narrow issues, all the time. But we have only attempted to use them on major constitutional questions that are highly contentious by nature.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That's not an excuse to stumble from chaotic event to chaotic event that could be absolutely foreseen, and blaming either people who voted to remain or the private sector for being unable to predict the outcome of wide ranging discussions years in advance.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Looks like the Brexiters are turning on Johnson. Perhaps blaming your friends was not the best of moves for Johnson?

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...h-b959283.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are in purist mode, jfman. We do not live in a perfect world where everything is black and white.

Most of us are able to judge the arguments people make for themselves. We either accept them or reject them. Then we decide.

That’s just how it works.

---------- Post added at 10:17 ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 ----------

I agree that this doesn’t move us forward, but when I raise the point in answer the the moans of the reluctant remainers that this was a democratic decision, others, including your good self, keep making excuses about the way in which the debate was conducted. I am simply saying we need to accept that decision and the fact that Brexit has happened.

Instead of dwelling on the angst that remainers still feel about losing the argument, and the persistent cries of ‘We told you so’ from them when anything goes wrong, it would be rather more constructive if we turned our attention to how we addressed these transitional issues.

You don’t solve problems by constantly moaning about them and looking backwards. That won’t get us anywhere.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’m not even sure the point you are making, OB. Other than to seek to absolve the government of any responsibility for governing.

I have - I’m indeed at pains to stress I don’t see the value in rehashing the same debates over and over.

Perhaps there would be no cries of “we told you so” if indeed we had mitigated against foreseeable problems? If legitimate concerns of the transition - coming to fruition - weren’t dismissed as “remoaners” by those in favour that had no solutions.

I agree it won’t get anyone, anywhere. However it suits one side of the argument - the leave side - to bog everyone down in nationalistic hubris rather than own the problems arising from their haphazard implementation of one of the biggest policy shifts in any of our lifetimes.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Carth walks into the playground.

Looks over at the (not so) merry-go-round and decides it's a waste of time.

Glances towards the big slide, where business leaders are queuing up for their turn on the slope towards lower profit margins.

Heads towards the swings, but turns away when he notices that those sitting on the swings are lazily waiting for someone else to push them.

Carth slowly wanders back home, passing all the fully fueled cars that haven't moved for a week, and smiles as he passes the chap from the council who's carefully spraying yellow circles around the same pot holes they fixed last year.

Aint life grand :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What the Brexit-voting bosses of Next, Wetherspoons and Iceland are seeking is a plan.

Since 2016, we have been discussing this point off and on as I saught to look forward and move beyond stale arguments. All I've ever heard has been wait and see.

I was less patient than these Brexiters but now they've caught up with reality and are asking that very question. That's a big step change.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Next: Production problems in Asia, and shipping problems from there to here.
Wetherspoons; Got rid of his staff, who are now returning that level of loyalty.
Iceland: No idea, but probably a mixture of the two above.

:p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wrong, but I'm sure Johnson would give you a pat on the back for trying to save his. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm sure he would, it's as good as Boris insinuating that the breakaway european super league was something to do politics and how the Tories prevented it... :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Was he wearing an England shirt over his suit at the time? :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Care to explain where what I wrote was 'wrong', and give your version?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Next don’t think the shipping problems are negatively affecting their business

https://www.business-live.co.uk/reta...simon-21713000

Wetherspoons - agreed

Iceland - no supporting evidence

At best, you’re half-right… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Adding 2% to their shipping costs doesn't help, but I guess some people don't think that's a negative :shrug:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58731504

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The nationalistic hubris, as you put it, arises from the remoaners droning on about the Brexit decision and the political arguments surrounding it.

We are all fed up with this, and the way to avoid it is to accept that the decision has been made and get on with it.

Instead of gleefully pointing out that something has gone wrong each time there’s a problem, why not debate how we might resolve it? Then we can start having decent debates on this subject.

Problems occur, problems get resolved. Like the sausage wars - finally, the EU has caved.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And there’s nothing stopping them from getting on with it. The Parliamentary mandate is there. Go forth and forge this high wage, high skill economy.

Believe it or not OB nobody on this forum has any meaningful influence over the course of Government. I think you are giving the half dozen or so more vocal remainers on the forum far more credit than they deserve.

Nobody is stopping you debating the solutions - put ideas forward.

It’s not inevitable that problems get solved. Certainly not by themselves through chance or luck. It’s for politicians to develop solutions for the problems they created and who better placed than the visionaries who supported the policy.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Fair cop ;)
Agreed on Spoons but not the other two.

Next: Wants the government to be proactive on skills shortages
Iceland: Wants the government to stop blaming business and consider the accumulative problems it is facing
"https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58731504
https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...ages-latest-vn

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Exactly, which is what they are doing. We should also be coming up with our own ideas about how these problems could possibly be resolved instead of constantly carping every time a problem arises.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Can you name any plan, just out of curiousity?

I mean a “high wage, high skill” economy doesn’t spawn itself into existence by itself. Otherwise anyone could do it.

So tell me: what’s the plan?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Rather easy actually, thought you'd have got it . .

Minimum wage up to £22 an hour, then legislate that any job paying over £20 an hour is a highly skilled job.

Uncle Bob innit :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Genius, hope this idea doesn't reach the ears of government or they'll adopt it most probably

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Haha well, I’ll credit this. High is a relative concept. You can have a high wage, high skill economy that’s got an extremely high cost of living. Nobody who lives there will thank you for it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Austria too?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not at 57%, it isn’t… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Do we really want to be Sweden with the public spending to GDP ratio they have? Many of our members would be physically sick at the prospect.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And the average salary is 547,464 SEK, which means over 50% pay the higher rate (unlike U.K., where it’s around 10%).

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suspect ours has crept up during the pandemic with furlough and PPE amongst others.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Will it be better than this N Korea model we are following now ,no fuel, no food no gas, no electric , no turkeys [apart from the HOC]no meat.............

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

But we do have countless 'Z' list celebs clamouring for attention, although sadly lack the firing squad to deal with them ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not everywhere is like North Lincs…
;)

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1633770068

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Anyway, speaking of post-apocalyptic hellholes, interesting thread on Twitter this morning…

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1...812989442.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wouldn't know i've never lived there.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Maybe you should ask Boris - he's the one with the vision.

Ths basic idea is that with the Europeans going back to their countries, vacancies are created here, and if employers can't fill the vacancies, they will increase wages to attract more people. The more vacancies there are, the less excuse there is for able bodied people to be receiving benefits, so its a virtuous circle.

Employers have the task of attracting our own people to jobs with appropriate salaries, by making jobs more interesting and by training those without the skills.

I was reading about the way lorry drivers are treated recently, and it's no wonder employers have difficulty attracting them. We need to start treating these people with respect and provide at least the basic facilities, such as lorry stops with decent loos and to stop all the hanging around at warehouses while they wait for people to turn up to unload the lorries.

There's lots we can do to make jobs more attractive, and if we can increase productivity, we will need less of them and use the savings to improve conditions.

Ministers understand what is expected of them - it's up to them to work out the detail, not the PM.