Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Yes, it really is. There is little point in having a slanging match with the EU. They either want a tariff free trade deal with the UK or they don't. The choice is theirs to make.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So many negotiators employed by both sides tells me it's much more nuanced than the simplistic offering by Old Boy.

Similarly the state of our economy by then might may change the dynamics somewhat.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

But the challenge is the time limit that has been set (which was our choice) - every other trade deal has taken years, if not decades.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

But that’s the thing Seph. Leave has won.

An extension shouldn’t be viewed though the leave/remain prism. It should be about our economic interests.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

We’re a sovereign nation both ways Seph. We would enter an extension with our eyes open, and an end date in sight.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It's laughable anybody is even wasting their time on Brexit at the moment.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Agreed, those staff should be seconded to support their nations' health services. We can pick up in a year's time.
Peoples' lives are more important.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Brexit has happened.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It shouldn't be ignored, but it has to be acknowledged that huge swathes of the Civil Service are moving into Covid-19 response roles leaving them less well equipped to support future relationship negotiations. In tandem with this we need to carve out what we want our agriculture and fisheries sectors to look like, and wider trade agreements with the rest of the world.

The DWP are moving staff to support Universal Credit applications and HMRC (who would apply any tariff regime) moving staff to support small businesses and the Chancellor's support for the self employed.

All the while hundreds of thousands of staff are having to work from home and their key stakeholders in the same boat affecting delivery of thousands of key projects up and down the land.

I know in the other thread I get accused of doom-mongering somewhat - but the western world as we know it has never seen a challenge on this scale since World War 2. I have no hesitation in sharing that I have genuine anxiety over what the next two months will bring.

Everyone on this forum knows I didn't support Brexit - that's no secret. Do I want it to succeed? Of course I do. Our collective wealth depends on it. Collective wealth that in turn supports tax revenues to support the NHS, education, police and all the public services on which we all rely.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So when the Brexit delay is announced, who will you turn to? Is it curtains for Boris or will you still think he farts perfume?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It’s not the virus the Civil Servants are dealing with, it’s the severe negative impact on services, systems, and day to day life and business the virus is having.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Brexit happened, if there is a delay to future trading relationship, I will wait. Isn’t that what you do if there is a delay?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

We are already aligned with EU rules, so it is much easier for us than other countries.

---------- Post added at 13:26 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

Yes, of course it's complicated, but there are fewer issues than for other trade deals owing to our current alignment with them. Given that, the deadline is perfectly do-able.

It is true that the state of our economy will not be as it was pre-virus, but neither will the EU's economy.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-johnson-trade https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51345776
https://www.politico.eu/article/no-a...r-sajid-javid/

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Sounds like there could be a lot to this, Hugh. ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Clearly, there will be no regulatory alignment, but the point I was trying to make was that their product specifications for goods exported from the UK to the EU will not be an issue for us. They already meet those specifications, and so it will not be an issue.

However, we don't want the EU dictating how we trade with other countries and nor do we want to be subject to the ECJ.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So you expect businesses to maintain two manufacturing processes - ones that meet EU specification and one for the rest of the world? Or will we just sell the EU spec ones to the rest of the world too?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The specifications for goods varies between countries. This is quite normal.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So we will be "aligned with EU rules" (your words), but not their regulations?

Thanks for clearing that up...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

No, but we will have to meet the specifications for the goods that are exported to the EU. The same as we have to do for our trade with other countries.

What I actually said was that we are already aligned with EU rules. That means we are already compliant with specification requirements on our exports to the EU.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

But our Government has stated frequently they don’t intend to continue to be aligned with EU rule, so currently being aligned is irrelevant, and we could be non-compliant in the future.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It’s not irrelevant at all.

Trade deals are frequently characterised by mutual recognition of standards, not compliance. A mutual recognition deal that starts from a point of near perfect alignment ought to be far easier to work out than one that begins from a place of great divergence.

There are EU rules written right through our statute book. Even a deliberate effort to diverge from them would take years to produce significant widespread differences.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Eloquently put, Chris.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So if it'd take years to make any meaningful changes, what's the rush to not extend 12 months?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So doesn’t that mean the PM, Foreign Secretary, and (then) Home Secretary were "not being congruent with actuality" when they said

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Not in the slightest (as I suspect you already know).

The PM and others are talking about trajectory - future intent, not the present state of the statute book, which is self evidently fully aligned with the EU because it has been developed in line with the EU for more than 40 years.

This present government is open to regulatory change to the benefit of British businesses and consumers. There is, however, simply no way their pronouncements can possibly be construed as meaning that all those regulations will change on day one after the transition ends.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Agreed - however, that is one of the reasons why the treaty negotiations might take longer; what time period is our Government intending, and gaining agreement about this.

The point is - it's not that simple...

---------- Post added at 12:46 ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 ----------

That's a very simplistic attitude, and not attached to reality - we have to adhere to other countries product specifications (not just the EU's).

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Unusually, Pierre and I find ourselves in agreement on this point. ;)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Because it would allow the EU to continue to impose their rules on us.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Anyway, there is the initial video meeting today of the EU-UK joint committee on the Implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement today, by teleconference, with Michael Gove and EC Vice-President Maroš Šefčovič (and support staff), and here is the provisional agenda.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Rules we have no plans to diverge from for years apparently.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I'm not sure if some of you are being deliberately obtuse. My point was about the specifications for goods. From next year we want to be able to determine the specifications for goods coming into this country and those we export out. We don't want to be hidebound by EU rules that are there as protectionist measures by the EU..

Of course, when it comes to trade WITH the EU, they will want goods coming in to meet certain standards. Well, we already meet those standards, which is why it will not take so long for us to get a trade agreement, assuming the EU are not still in punishment mode.

If we were still subject to EU rules next year, we would not have a free hand on these matters in negotiating with other countries. It will be our decision, not theirs, if we want to import chlorinated chicken from the States (which I would remind everyone is safer than EU salmonella-covered chicken).

---------- Post added at 15:35 ---------- Previous post was at 15:33 ----------

That was not my point. However, it would be nice to be able to do so if we chose.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It’d be nice to do many things that are unrealistic in practical terms. That doesn’t mean I shouldn’t consider other outcomes that might be beneficial to my needs.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The question of alignment is slightly more involved than it first appears, precisely because “no plans to diverge” is a million miles away from “dynamically align”, which is the EU’s starting position in negotiations. Even if we have no plans to change our rules that will lead to divergence over time as the EU change theirs. Dynamic alignment, in which we automatically update our rules to remain in line with theirs, solves this, at the expense of giving up one of the principal benefits of leaving the EU in the first place. Even without intention to actively change UK market rules, the only viable trade deal with the EU is one based on mutual recognition, not alignment.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Again, (shock horror) totally agree.

I believe negotiating this trade deal will take more than three months.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You are absolutely right in once we have completely left the EU, we can set any standards we want. At present, as you say, we are fully aligned with EU standards and if we produce goods that do not conform with those standards, there is a dispute system in place.

However, what happens if we decide to change our standards, for example. letting the famous chlorinated chicken in? All of a sudden, we are no longer aligned and goods will be stopped at the border and cannot be sold. This of course works both ways - the EU could change standards making goods produced in the EU unsellable in the UK.

Without a dynamic alignment, there could be many banana skins down the line

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So the EU aren't going to be planning additional new rules? It's also about what can be sold where. Something that is sold in the UK should be subject to UK rules, just as something sold in the EU is subject to EU rules. Nobody has a problem with that. The Eu is trying to insist that products sold in the UK should be subject to EU rules and jurisdiction, and all without having a say on those rules in the first place.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You’re misunderstanding the principle of mutual recognition of standards, which is what almost always underpins an international trade deal.

The EU’s demand for dynamic alignment has nothing to do with goods becoming unsellable. It’s about their concerns that their rules make their businesses uncompetitive if a nearby, major economy like the UK decided to deregulate, sell into the single market and undercut their domestic producers in ways those producers can have no answer for.

What they are demanding is for the UK to be treated differently to other countries it has done a deal with, not out of friendship and a desire for more trade, but out of fear that they have lost influence over one of the world’s major economies and for the potential consequences of that for them.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

It’s not that I haven’t understood you all the first time(s) it’s that I think your stances are extremely pointless and outweighed by the huge economic uncertainty we are already in.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

But nobody's suggesting that the EU should take in chlorinated chicken. WE might (or might not) wish to do so, but I don't see what business that is of the EU. They only have to specify the standards expected of the goods THEY import.

---------- Post added at 18:18 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------

Precisely! Got it in one!

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

It's not pointless unless you enjoy being bullied by the EU. We should be allowed to buy and sell to whomever we please without having to abide by the EU's dictats. Brexit would not be viable if we just kept within EU rules.

The EU can only prescribe the standards of goods imported by them. It is none of their business from next year what we import from and export to other countries.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Mutual recognition of standards requires mutual agreement of those standards. If the standards change on either side, those standards would need to pass the test to see if they are still equivalent otherwise the system falls down. Standards can and do change over time. For example, the Machinery Directive has changed 5 times since it was introduced in 1998.

Of course the EU doesn't want a 'Singapore' on its' borders, why would it and why would the EU facilitate this? The EU is a rules based organisation and 27 countries are willing to participate to create and abide by those rules to reap the benefits of things like the single market. If push came to shove, I think the EU countries would rather leave the UK out in the cold than undermine where they are right now.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Here we go with the meaningless emotive terminology. ”Bullied” by the EU.

We’d be entering into any such agreement of our own accord. Anything the EU proposed to introduce in the next year could be immediately overturned at the end of the transition.

For someone so eager to risk the lives of hundreds of thousands of your countrymen in the Coronavirus thread for the sake of a couple of percentage points on GDP you’re getting quite emotional about 365 days, or about four Coronavirus lockdowns about the hypothetical introduction of rules you can’t name that could be overturned before they were even implemented fully in the UK.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

If the EU is trying to dictate to us the imports we take in from other countries, yes, they are trying to bully us. I am not arguing that the EU should not be allowed to specify the standards for our exports to the EU, of course not - they have every right to do so. But that is not a problem for us, as we already meet them! This will not change.

However, they have no right to interfere with our trade with the rest of the world.

How you manage to think that this will damage our economy, I really cannot fathom! It's the measures we are taking regarding the coronavirus that will damage our economy.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You don’t understand now leaving the largest free trade area in the world, in the absence of any trade agreements, on an entirely arbitrary date, would damage the economy?

I’m sorry Old Boy you are a parody of yourself now. You used to be quite engaging to debate with despite our disagreements. However you are now arguing for the sake of arguing.

The whole point of Boris getting a deal and a transition agreement was to avoid an economically damaging cliff edge and allow our Government to develop frameworks to support our sectors that fall under EU guidelines just now such as agriculture and fisheries.

With 6-8 months of the transition effectively lost (which it will be) and global economies in a precarious state only the deliberately obtuse would wilfully claim, for entirely ideological reasons, that none of that had any bearing on whether there should be an extension or not.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

That's a good one!

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

'global economies in a precarious state' is the only part of recent posts that I've considered meaningful


Perhaps said global economies may be willing to push deals through faster for benefit to all?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You are exaggerating the cost of leaving the EU to a considerable degree, and you are not addressing the upsides. I have said consistently that there are two sides to this equation and you consistently ignore it. As an economist, my good man, you should appreciate that there is a credit as well as a debit side.

Frankly, I would be surprised if the EU failed to agree a deal. The political statement accompanying the withdrawal agreement strongly indicates that a no tariff agreement is what they want, and it would be a major upset to the countries of the EU that export to the UK if this is not carried through. If a deal is reached, then where are the calamitous budget implications that will make our sky fall in?

And if a deal isn't reached, it still doesn't mean we won't be trading with the EU. I presume you accept that the EU will lose more by applying tariffs than we will lose. If I calculate that correctly, that gives us a tariff credit!

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I can’t exaggerate something that isn’t quantifiable.

Again, completely unquantifiable.

Indeed, one completely unquantifiable at this stage. I note you are having a separate debate all by yourself on “leaving the EU”. That’s done, gone.

What I do know is that poor planning results in poor outcomes in public policy and greater uncertainty destabilises the markets. Indeed, one doesn’t have to look far to see how easily markets can be spooked.

Without knowing how much tariffs are, the amounts of goods/services consumed in each direction again this is entirely unquantifiable.

Considering the supply and demand side shocks to the global economy resulting from Coronavirus what trade will look like next year is completely uncertain.

The stock market, and the pound, both reacted positively to Johnson being elected on the promise of delivering a deal that would pass Parliament, ending uncertainty, avoiding a cliff edge and engaging seriously but firmly with the EU on a future trading arrangement.

If a deal is reached all to the good, if not there’s no point walking away at an entirely arbitrary date drawn up in different economic circumstances if there’s a realistic prospect of a deal by the end of 2021. As I said before, it gives businesses time and Government time to prepare policies for fisheries and agricultural sectors.

If there’s any rules we don’t like repeal them on 2nd January 2022 - literally nothing lost as a result.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Yes, you’re right.

They have everything to lose, and it doesn’t matter to us...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Substitute European Union for United Kingdom, same principle applies the other way.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I thought Brexit was done?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Nope, still keeps rearing its head . .

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

So at last, you confirm that in predicting doom and gloom ahead, you have taken absolutely no account of the upsides. Incredible!

How can you be so confident that this will be a disaster when the only impact of Brexit you have considered are the negatives?

You may not be able to quantify the advantages because, as I pointed out many, many posts ago, you cannot know exactly how entrepreneurs will respond to all the new opportunities that will open up for us after the end of this year. But respond, they certainly will.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

it is, we are just clarifying the depth of our future contempt for each other before the final two fingered salute.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

What’s absolutely incredible is your skewed interpretation of my post that clearly balanced both upsides and downsides as unquantifiable.

Once again you are rehashing the Brexit debate all by yourself. That’s history, Old Boy - I can only assume your own insecurity in your argument drives the need to repeat the same opinions over and over.

I note your inability to challenge the rest of my post resulted in you simply selecting the first two points. I’m unsure of the value in that to be honest.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Could you two maybe start a new thread . . . 'Going in Circles' may be a good title :D


actually, maybe a threesome with Sephiroth :rofl:

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

As you well know, we remain under EU restrictions until the end of the year, so although we have technically 'left' the EU, we still have to abide by their rules.

I did not challenge the rest of your post quite deliberately. I simply disagree with your analysis and there's no point going over and over this. The only reason I responded to you was to highlight that your absolute certainty that Brexit was a bad idea and that we would fail did not take account of the advantages of leaving, and you finally admitted this. So you cannot be so sure, can you?

Honestly, if you think your responses on this subject are balanced, do your self a favour. Never think of doing a tightrope walk. Now, that would be a disaster! :D

---------- Post added at 12:43 ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 ----------

Sorry, Carth, but those going around spreading alarm and despondency need to be challenged.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I think you will find that nowhere did I admit not factoring unquantifiable upsides into any past analysis. Indeed, if you are that bored you want to rehash the Brexit debate you can use the search facility and just read it all over again.

I can hardly be accused of spreading alarm and despondency. As I have made very clear on a number of occasions on 2nd January 2022 we could repeal any EU rules introduced in 2021 (not that I’ve seen anyone name any) and use the additional time to put frameworks in place for trade negotiations, for the economy to recover from Coronavirus, create policies to support our agricultural and fisheries sectors. All reasonably proportionate steps for the economy, and Brexit, to succeed.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I'm reading lots of sources that suggest Johnson will propose an extension period at the height of the crisis. It's neatly summarised by one business leader who asked the the Daily Telegraph’s Europe Editor, Peter Foster “am I supposed to be making ventilators or hiring customs agents?”

Here's one of those many sources suggesting an extension is on the books.
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status...49409439436808

Will Johnson re-emerge from his CV-19 isolation to be a succesful leader of a nation in crisis and able to stand upto the likes of David Davis and Dominic Raab? It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
I see three likely choices and rate them:
No extension (10% chance)
1-year extension (50% channce)
2-year extension (40% chance)

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Realistically, Johnson's illness and likely recuperation period makes an extension inevitable.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Boris has people who can continue negotiations according to his brief while he is out of action.

Don't get your hopes up.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Yes we've already seen the calibre of his people. Raab looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights, Gove the devil incarnate...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I guess that depends on how warped your perspective on things is, Mr K. The other lot would be in total disarray if they were in charge.

The government has got a good handle on this and they are making decisions in line with medical advice. Would you have them going against that advice?

They could do, I suppose, but there would be more casualties and the NHS would break. You can't go to the other extreme and lock everyone up because first of all, the public would not accept it, but also, the virus would simply get to us all when the restrictions were lifted. If you think it's a good idea to lock everyone up for 18 months, you are part of a very small minority.

---------- Post added at 15:35 ---------- Previous post was at 15:22 ----------

It's all speculation, though, isn't it? Certainly, Boris could turn this to his advantage and give the coronavirus as his reason to extend if he wanted to, and people by and large would accept that. But would he, though? To his mind, this is a straight forward matter and either the EU will give it to us (in line with EU interests), or they won't.

I guess we'll know soon enough, but it is important to be aware that video conferencing discussions have continued to take place with our counterparts in Brussells, so in reality, coronavirus is no real excuse for not getting on with it.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Old Boy when did you become a mind reader?

In your opinion Coronavirus, the greatest peacetime challenge since World War 2, is no excuse to not get on with... What exactly?

Where are the international trade agreements? Where's the strategy? Where's the plan? What EU laws are we going to bin? When?

Trade agreements don't take 11 years because both parties "either want one or they don't".

Also please reply without rehashing the Brexit debate all by yourself. We all want Brexit to succeed - we have left the EU and are in a timebound transition - I want you to tell me by the end of this year is better than the end of next.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

A wise decision, you were lucky to get back home early last time. I personally wouldn't be doing any unneccesary travel at the moment (even if I wasn't being shielded).

Also, as the Government have instructed us not to undertake any unneccesary travel and they don't know when these restrictions will end, could those who travel to an airport for a holiday in June fall foul of the law if these restrictions are still in place?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Getting on with the trade deal...obviously.

Boris has other dedicated negotiators and planners dealing exclusively with the EU trade negotiations. I would remind you that both the EU and Britain want a no tariff trade deal. We can meet all of the EU standards for goods we export to them, and vice versa. That is one very good reason why we don't need seven or eleven years or more to negotiate it.

I am not rehashing a Brexit debate. I'm explaining that a trade deal does not have to be postponed because of coronavirus. As usual, you are putting forward problems which either don't exist, or at least are straight forward enough for the government to overcome.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Of course it doesn't have to postpone trade negotiations - but it does have to slow them down. You completely underestimate the extent of Civil Service wide resource being thrown into Coronavirus and the number of sectors that focus is on Coronavirus only. It's a matter of life and death to tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of our citizens.

I am absolutely flabbergasted that you claim Coronavirus "doesn't exist" or is "straight forward". How many people have to die, or who has to die, before you accept this isn't "just the flu".

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

The civil service has a finite capacity and much of it has been diverted into crisis planning. To the extent that all the functions of government should continue, then obviously transition planning and negotiations should continue. But it is absurd to believe that anything in government can carry on unaffected by the present crisis.

I would much prefer the transition to end at the end of the original agreed period. But I think there is a snowball's chance in hell of that actually happening now. We are, realistically, in for a 6-9 month extension.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Don't be ridiculous, jfman! Stop making things up. When did I say the coronavirus 'doesn't exist'? And yes, coronavirus is a type of flu, as was SARS. I'm not saying it is not serious either - what I have pointed out is that flu takes a great many lives each year as well and we seem not to panic about it, because we are used to that happening on a regular basis.

Yes, you are correct to say that there has been a large civil service resource being thrown into the coronavirus emergency, but there has also been a dedicated team set up just to deal with the trade deal with the EU. That being the case, and the fact that discussions are taking place by video instead of face to face in Brussels, there is no reason to delay the deadline for these talks.

Having said that, if Boris doesn't improve soon, that could indeed prompt a delay to the deadline.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Flu and SARS are types of coronavirus, not the other way around, and COVID-19 is a novel coronavirus, which is the difference from flu - we have decades of dealing with flu viruses, just 3 months with this, so there is a huge difference in approach to dealing with it. We have flu inoculations, we don't have one for COVID-19 (and probably won't have for another year).

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

SARS was (is) a nasty virus - if you caught it - yet even though it has an F0 factor equivalent to Covid 19 it didn't appear to spread and infect the (UK) population in the devastating way this one is.

Maybe the COVID 19 virus has better longevity on touched surfaces and airborne?

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

I don’t see why Boris needs to be well, cant Raab, Gove or someone else do it? After all, if we don’t need an army of civil servants to support the negotiations why do we need Johnson. They either want a deal, or they don’t? It’s literally that simple, is it not?

You are also ignoring that civil servants don’t just support the negotiations. Government departments need to know what their own areas will look like with, and without, a trade deal. Agriculture, fisheries being two significant ones. HMRC and their customs/tariff arrangements and the Home Office with border enforcement.

As always you are grossly underestimating the task and the fact you seem to base it on whether Government can function on whether Boris is healthy (or not) simply reinforces your ignorance on such matters.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Well, you clearly have this mindset that every problem is insurmountable and nothing can be done to achieve what is wanted. You carried on like that throughout the Brexit process, but hey....it all worked out and we've left. I am not underestimating anything. You are simply trying to create insurmountable problems where there are simply issues to be resolved. The fact that this is not easy does not mean they cannot be achieved, but your posts all seem to indicate that if this was up to you, you would give up even before the first hurdle.

I don't get why you think a tariff free trade deal is so impossible to achieve in a year. The negotiations are continuing, and you have not provided any information that verifies your apparent view that they are not making good progress. We meet all the specifications for products sold to the EU because we have actually been a member of the EU, so complications such as were the case in the Canada deal don't arise.

The only reason I say that the active participation of Boris is crucial is because Boris himself will want to keep the negotiations going in a particular direction. He might want to take personal charge of that. He knows how easy it is for people to want to backtrack and make unacceptable concessions to the other side, and he believes that he's the man who can hold his nerve. He's probably right about that.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

As it's not binary I suggest the former.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Absolute nonsense Old Boy.

You seem quite schizophrenic about this one. I say we've left and you are first to point out that we still follow EU rules and it's not really leaving.

Wherher you can recognise it or not is irrelevant.

Name a single thing I've named above that isn't true. Do we not need new fisheries policies, agricultural policies, border control and a position on tariffs for EU goods?

I'm not inventing these things Old Boy. It's observable reality that these things are required.

You have that view because of your simplistic outlook driven solely by your ideology and a misapprehension that politics is driven by personality alone. Are Raab or Gove less committed to getting a trade deal by the end of this year? Of course not. They wouldn't be in the cabinet otherwise.

I'd be at the front of the queue happy if a deal were concluded. I think it's wholly unrealistic, and the contingency is perfectly reasonable for a short extension.

As I've said a million times you cannot even name a rule the EU intend to bring in next year.

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

From the House of Commons Library, yesterday.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk...-negotiations/

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Of course we've left the EU. We are in a withdrawal period whereby we continue to be subject to EU rules and the ECJ. Why did you think that was an issue for me? This is a transition period so that we can prepare ourselves properly for the break at the end of the year.

You say we need to have fisheries policies in place. They are our damned fish, actually, we don't need to agree them with the EU! All these policies are likely to have been drafted some time ago. It may be that we will make some changes during the course of these negotiations, but the government knows what it wants to achieve.

As far as tariffs for goods is concerned, we want no tariffs, and nor does the EU. And if the EU applies them to our exports to them, we will apply them to their exports to us. Guess who would lose more?

The thing is, this has been said before. What is it you don't get? Or are you arguing for the sake of it? I know, I must perish the thought...

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

Then again .....


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52208127


Brexit trade talks continuing in ‘difficult times’

Post-Brexit trade talks are continuing with the EU “in these difficult times”, according to the UK’s chief negotiator. David Frost said he and his EU counterpart, Michel Barnier, would decide a timetable for further discussions in April and May.


Things change quickly!

Re: [Updated] The UK’s future relationship with the EU
 

You've just claimed a policy for fisheries would be established ages ago. Absolutely baseless claim.

You correctly point out they are our fish, however I'm sure we'd all agree that unregulated fishing is a bad idea. So we need two policies - one for if fishing is in a trade deal and one for if it's not. This is nexessary firstly for population levels in our waters and two my favourite subject - economics - some kind of control has to make sure this develops sustainable fisheries communities and preferably profitable exports.

You hypothesise who would lose more but either way that's time and effort implementing policy outcomes that are unclear as we sit today. Plus we need the "no deal" one being planned for in th background.

My real issue is I have an intolerance of absolutely baseless information and opinion presented as fact on an internet forum.