Re: Brexit
 

It's the fact that this hasn't been done that has led to the dire forecasts. All the negatives have been calculated but none of the positives.

Re: Brexit
 

So despite the finance sector being full of companies seeking to get an edge on each other in the post Brexit world literally nobody has done any analysis on which areas will be worth investing in? None of these capitalists in multi billion pound investment firms has commissioned any research into it? Nobody?

Re: Brexit
 

And one of those other set of circumstances is remaining in the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

You're ignoring likelihood.

Re: Brexit
 

Believe it or not even though I'm a Brexiteer I am educated enough to know that conflating and combining are exactly the same.

Conflating is used by those who wish to appear superior.

BTW I also enjoy doing The Times, Telegraph and Daily Fail cryptic crosswords.

Re: Brexit
 

Anything positive they will keep to themselves. No good letting everybody else know about your research and analysis.

Investment firms have to produce a prospectus with hypothetical worst case scenarios. That is because investors will complain that nobody warned them, if they are caught out. The key word being "hypothetical".

Re: Brexit
 

Do you know of any?

The problem is to know which opportunities capitalists will go for. Any predictions would be pointless because exactly how businesses will react is unknown.

But the opportunities are there, and freed up from the dead hand of the EU, the UK can only prosper.

Re: Brexit
 

As much as I enjoy getting bogged down in semantics on this forum, I think you know that I mean you are conflating/combining two issues that aren't linked for the purposes of derailing the conversation.

Privatisation by New Labour has no effect on the likelihood (or otherwise) of further privatisation as part of any future US-UK trade deal.

---------- Post added at 17:19 ---------- Previous post was at 17:18 ----------

I'm aware of exactly none, which is why I asked if you knew of any.

Re: Brexit
 

So its OK for New Labour to privatise part of the NHS but not anyone else?

Why should any US deal include privatisation of the NHS? It may be something the US wants but will not necessarily get.

Re: Brexit
 

And should therefore not be referred to in debate?

Good privatisation v bad privatisation?

New labour privatisation - good, Privatisation post Brexit - Bad.

I get it now, thanks.

Re: Brexit
 

You need to remove the chip on your shoulder.

---------- Post added at 19:14 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ----------

The negatives are quantifiable since they can be assessed. The positives cannot not be as noone has articulated any to the level of detail required for assessment.

---------- Post added at 19:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:14 ----------

You are deliberately conflating ( :) ) the PFI initiative started under New Labour as a "good" thing. It was not and has been proved not to be so. Yes, I hate to break the news but Governments do make bad decisions.

The privatisation referred to as likely under a right of centre Tory government is one based on the US free market model where the healthcare companies seek to put profit ahead of the patient.

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:22 ----------

Farage wants the US healthcare model so if you voted for Brexit Party, I am afraid you voted for this along with a whole litany of other great policies e.g. climate change denial, relaxing gun control, etc.

Re: Brexit
 

Britain Elects forecast for this year's UK European elections has...

Also a exit poll has been released in France.

Re: Brexit
 

I've never had a chip on my shoulder.

Farage can want whatever policies but in the EU election only one mattered. Leave! The whole litany of others have absolutely nothing to do with the EU elections.

Re: Brexit
 

Rubbish. Voting for European Parliamentary Election has no relevance to Domestic policies. You see, what you have missed during his new campaign for Brexit Party, is that Farage insisted that Party policies would be decided by its supporters, once it got past European Parliamentary Elections first, their focus was winning most seats which current forcasts say they will win the most seats.

Re: Brexit
 

I hope the breixit traitor party AKA lim dem doesn't do well.

I found it highly offensive to their "Bollocks to Brexit"

So much so that the leader should be strip of his knighthood.

Re: Brexit
 

Bit over the top.

Re: Brexit
 

Less of the word traitor Hom3r as no one is a traitor whoever they cast their vote for.

Re: Brexit
 

He wasn’t having a go at the voters, mainly the parties. I happen to agree with Hom3r. We have a party called Liberal Democrat’s but they’re being anything but Democratic with their immature profanity laden slogan, wanting to over turn one of the largest Democratic process in modern British history.

Re: Brexit
 

If they are being attacked must mean the LDs have done well at the expense of other parties ;)

Re: Brexit
 

I think everyone would agree the LD's will be the party of choice for remainers.

Re: Brexit
 

The Liberal Democrats and their voters are entitled to use the democratic system to register protest and seek to influence previous democratic decisions. The idea that they are traitors and the leader of the party should be stripped of a Knighthood for standing on an electoral platform you disagree with is hardly democratic is it?

Re: Brexit
 

On the Brexit front, the key election result is surely that for the next Prime Minister. If Theresa May was not leaving next month, the European results might have had more of an impact but events have overtaken them.

Re: Brexit
 

Any surprise result might influence things.

Labour getting decimated by Brexit voters in Leave seats might make them even more wary of any referendum whereas Liberal Democrat surges in Tory seats might make them more wary of No Deal.

I mean how would Boris react to the Lib Dems doing well in Uxbridge for example?

Re: Brexit
 

Moving from conflating two issues to putting words in my mouth! Nice.

Re: Brexit
 

Looking like a great night so far for Brexit Party and the Liberal Democrats.

Re: Brexit
 

And the Green Party too.

---------- Post added at 22:30 ---------- Previous post was at 22:27 ----------

Fair points.
Labour look set to be squeezed in both Leave and Remain areas.

Re: Brexit
 

Democratic decisions that have not yet been bloody implemented. :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit
 

Well that's why the Brexit Party is doing so well but it's still the democratic right for the Liberals to stand against it.

Re: Brexit
 

But there isn't a right to block and/or frustrate a democratic decision.


Would be interesting to do an analysis of the final figures and see how much better the Brexit party figures would be if UKIP had disbanded or not stood. An extra 3/4% might have made a big difference in the number of seats won.

Re: Brexit
 

East of England results:

Brexit Party 604,715
Liberal Democrats 361,563
Green 202,460
Labour 139,490
Tory 163,830
Change UK 58,274

Re: Brexit
 

Early days yet as not a lot of results returned but Brexit party showing 38% and labour the nearest at 17%.

Re: Brexit
 

Lib Dems are closer on 21%. Looks like they'll come 2nd. Brexit are on 31% as I write this.

Re: Brexit
 

Change UK have posted 1,542 votes in Broxtowe (Notts). That's Anna Soubry's seat.

Meanwhile, the Brexit Party has won 11,668. :rofl:

Re: Brexit
 

Change UK also lost the Lib Dems a seat in the North East (if you assume those votes would have gone there)

Re: Brexit
 

That happens all the time when a new Government is elected. Doubt adding the Ukip votes to the Brexit Party votes will have an effect as the former seems to have been wiped out.

Re: Brexit
 

Forget Cons & Lab this is going to end up between Brexit & LD's.

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit Party will definitely win. Question is if the Lib Dems will stay ahead of Labour. Greens doing very well too.

---------- Post added at 23:21 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/sta...71699949228032

SO FAR.....

Brexit Party will pick up more votes later. The above includes London after all.

Re: Brexit
 

Anna who ?

Re: Brexit
 

Indeed, at least the LibDems have decided on where they will stand and fight. That’s they’re dong well.

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit 12 seats
LD's 6 seats
Lab 5 Seats
Others (Greens) 3 seats
Cons 2 seats

Re: Brexit
 

Despite winning London, and I appreciate you only gave it as a what-if scenario, the Liberal Democrats came third in Uxbridge but were ahead of the Conservatives:

The Brexit Party 19,123
Labour Party 16,788
Liberal Democrats 12,372
Conservative and Unionist Party 8,812
Green Party 5,949
https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/articl...elections-2019

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------

Farewell, no-deal Brexit. ;)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-backs-no-deal

Re: Brexit
 

Still dreaming I see.:)

Re: Brexit
 

I think the result is sort of known now.

Brexit Party have come from nowhere to storm these elections.
Liberal Democrats are probably coming a comfortable second and won London, including Corbyn's own constituency.
Greens have done very well too.
Labour and Tory have had a very bad night. Maybe even worse than expected.
SNP and Plaid Cymru have done well too.

If you want No Deal you can say Brexit trounced the other parties.
If you want Remain you can say that the revoke/referendum parties won more voters than the No Deal parties. (but this might change as the voters come in).
If you want a compromise then good luck.

Best thing is UKIP got 3%. Turns out people don't like edgy YouTubers and embracing the far-right. Brexit voters didn't like that and went elsewhere instead. That's good.

Re: Brexit
 

Time for Vince Cable to change his party’s name so that it actually describes what it stands for. I would suggest Liberal AntiDemocrats since it is putting forward the notion that the democratic will of the people should be ignored.

Re: Brexit
 

BREAKING: The Brexit Party is the biggest single party in the European Parliament. Bigger even than the German CDU.

Re: Brexit
 

Great to see the Remain parties getting 40.3% of the vote compared to UKIP-Brrxit Party's 34.9%.

Re: Brexit
 

You mean several parties added together got more than one .. wow, talk about grasping at straws. ;)

Re: Brexit
 

And a bleak night of tsunami type proportions for the Conservative party and the Labour party...

Re: Brexit
 

If it's the second referendum Ann Widicombe claimed then how else do you add up the votes, it's bad enough having to leave the Tory and Labour votes out because they don't know what they want!

---------- Post added at 07:49 ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 ----------

Not yet is isn't. Think it will be though and I think that could turn out to be very useful in us getting a better deal

Re: Brexit
 

However as we are leaving it all seems like a pointless exercise..

Re: Brexit
 

All shows just how split the country is. Whatever happens with Brexit we're heading for disaster.

Re: Brexit
 

How do you work that out?

Re: Brexit
 

Libs + Green + SNP + PC + Change UK.

Re: Brexit
 

What this does, above all else, is put to bed the Remainers mantra of “you didn’t know what you were voting for” and that I’d there was another referendum it would be slam dunk for Remain.

When they quite obviously did and it would quite obviously would not be.

Re: Brexit
 

PR in action..:)

Re: Brexit
 

Surely SNP is also Leave. By leaving the UK they would automatically leave the EU.

Re: Brexit
 

Deeply divided with fault lines as wide as the San Andreas Fault..

Re: Brexit
 

Nice to see your wearing an even bigger set of blinkers.

Re: Brexit
 

Change U.K. - 3.4
LibDem - 20.3
Plaid - 1
SNP - 3.6
Green 12.1

40.4 = Remain at all cost

Brexit - 31.6 = Leave, with no deal if necessary

Tories - 9.1
Labour - 14.1

23.1 Leave, with a deal only

So I don’t see how Remain won?

Re: Brexit
 

Well he only said the Remain vs 'Hard' Brexit parties. There were were voters for the former.

The overall question depends how you view the Labour votes IMO. Since Labour's positions is rather split with their backing of a vote if they can't get an election.

I think the vote shows how split the country is.

---------- Post added at 09:40 ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 ----------

If we ignore the whole 'let's add all the parties up' and just concentrate on what it means for Parliament it's not helped much.

The Tories didn't just lose to the Brexit Party, they lost to the Liberal Democrats too.
Labour didn't just lose to the Liberal Democrats, they lost a lot of Northern seats to the Brexit Party.

Re: Brexit
 

Can we finally put to bed the statement that Leavers didn’t know what they voted for?

Re: Brexit
 

No. 17.4 million people didn’t vote for the Brexit Party. And those that did might, given new information, still do so because it’s ideological to them.

Although the statement isn’t really helpful anyway. Farage will steamroller PV types if it continues to be commonly used as the establishment talking down to the little guy.

Re: Brexit
 

To allocate all the seats and or votes won by remain supporting parties as meaning only their remain policy counts is very naïve. People vote, for example, Green for many reasons OTHER than their EU membership stance.

Farage's party had but one policy and the majority voted for that and that alone.

Re: Brexit
 

I agree it’s not as effective as a further referendum.

Re: Brexit
 

But given that over 3 years we’ve had the Remain side telling the public they’d been lied to, telling them how much worse of they’ll be, everyone was undoubtedly in full knowledge of the facts, and yet Brexit has swept the board?

Or is every person that voted Brexit a blinkered idealog.

All this has just confirmed that another Referendum would most likely return a similar result so I don’t know why they are pushing for one

Re: Brexit
 

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cp...9-05-27-nc.png

Re: Brexit
 

The results last night don't tell us anything the polling on a second referendum hasn't told us before. The country is deeply spilt down the middle. If Brexit isn't delivered the voters will punish you, if Brexit is delivered the voters will punish you.

The vote last night will be seen as people want to see them. The only real losers are Labour's comprise position and May's deal.

Re: Brexit
 

Brexit Party has unsurprisingly taken the UKIP vote and hammered the Tories. It didn’t win a majority and got less than the 17.4 million votes Leave did. “Swept the board” is exaggerating somewhat. Taking these figures and applying them to a hypothetical referendum with much higher turnout isn’t realistic.

All this has confirmed is the country remains polarised by the issue. We knew that last week.

Re: Brexit
 

YES!!!

In essence. On to last nights results. Great victory for Leavers and the Brexit Party. We won again. BP+UKIP+Con tally beats LD+ChUK+GR+SNP+PC. Around 40% for Remain and 44% for leave. That equates to 52% Leave vs 48% for Remain. No surprise there then.

Lots of bullshit spin being put out here that Remain won, they haven’t. The Lib Dem’s campaigned on a strong Remain ticket but they lost heavy to Brexit Party on a strong Leave ticket. To add all the Remain groups who ran on multiple policies is disingenuous.

Re: Brexit
 

I didn't talk about one party.

Re: Brexit
 

To not add them together ignores reality.

Re: Brexit
 

Exactly. And that goes back to my statement from yesterday that the most important election result for Brexit wasn't the European one but will be the one for the next Prime Minister.

As an aside, I thought it was interesting to see that senior politicians Michael Heseltine and Alistair Campbell didn't vote for their own parties. Shows the deep divides within the two main parties.

Re: Brexit
 

FFS, you keep asking where are all the 17.4 Million leavers for BP, the same can be said, where are all the 16 Million Remainers for Lib Democrats?

It’s always one sided rubbish with some of you Remainers.

You lost AGAIN!

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

And to add them together, as I showed you, your side lost, yet again!

Re: Brexit
 

That’s why this poll isn’t a meaningful measure of anything. You can spin it anyway, up to and including the public resoundingly rejecting Farage’s “no deal”.

It doesn’t change anything in Parliament either.

Re: Brexit
 

Not all Conservatives are Brexiteers Mick, could be argued the support they had left are the Remainers in the Party. Same for Labour. In which case Remain won by an even bigger margin. No wonder there is paranoia from the Leave side on another vote !

Re: Brexit
 

True, which seems to imply compromise, either way, is a vote loser.

Therefore, Tory and Labour need to decide what side of the coin they’re on. All this talk of “ bringing the country together” won’t get them anywhere.

Re: Brexit
 

The public clearly rejects staying in. Lib Dem’s has a single party issue for Remain, their bollocks to Brexit mantra, was heavily defeated by Brexit Party. ChUK didn’t even get on the map, they too, had a strong Remain policy.

Brexit Party are the absolute victors here and are now the largest single party in the European Parliament.

Re: Brexit
 

The public doesn’t clearly do anything from this result which is why a second referendum is inevitable.

Re: Brexit
 

This is just utter nonsense. Tories campaigned on a “Get Brexit done” in this election. So they are a leave party. Labour are the confusing party they can swing either way. But they also spoke about getting Brexit done and doing a deal during the campaign. They were not singing for Remain, that’s why Lib Dem’s pooled well from them.

Leave won last night (again) , quite heavy in some places. BP had 60% voter turn out in one area.

Re: Brexit
 

Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell now favour a people's vote. I wonder if the Conservatives will respond and try and take a harder Brexit line.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8931476.html

Re: Brexit
 

Rubbish. Stop lying. The public rejects staying in. This is perfectly clear in the results last night. “Bollocks to Brexit”, “Stop Brexit” from Lib Dem’s, was clearly not very appealing and lost heavy to Brexit Party in practically every region except London and Scotland.

Re: Brexit
 

Yup and that appears to be what they’re doing.

I think it can only read to disaster and a complete fracturing of the country. This is why I thought May’s deal should have passed first time. Everyone would hate it but at least it wouldn’t be total disaster for either. Instead someone is going to 100% win and the consequences will follow. No one seems to remember everyone has to live together when this is all over.

Re: Brexit
 

The message from the lib dem's with their new slogan is bollocks to democracy .

Re: Brexit
 

The Greens are heavily Remain too. They campaigned on free movement for example. Staying in the EU was at the centre of their campaign.

Re: Brexit
 

I’m not lying. 2016 demonstrated that some 17 million people voted to leave. Less than that voted for the Brexit party. Getting into guesswork about what’s in the heads of Conservative/Labour voters, given the multitude of issues those parties stand for, is speculative at best.

Why are you so terrified of a second referendum if you are so certain?

---------- Post added at 11:02 ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 ----------

Plus SNP. Almost 4% of the UK wide vote.

Re: Brexit
 

The Lib Dems had a brilliant night. As for their slogan it's about time Brexiteers had some of their own abusive type language thrown back at them.

A drop of 52% to 34% shows support for Brexit is declining and will continue to do so.

Re: Brexit
 

I would suggest that most of the green vote was in response to issues with the planet,ie Climate change ,plastic in the oceans,air pollution etc .
The lib dem's had a clear message to ignore the results of democracy and many bought into that ideology .

Re: Brexit
 

You can take that weak line with every party that is not a single-issue party.

---------- Post added at 11:20 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

And support for no-deal is even lower - just 26%.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics...no-deal-brexit

Re: Brexit
 

The video of people laughing with Tommy Robinson's vote share was read out was a highlight of the evening I must say.

Re: Brexit
 

After the huge win by the Brexit party the EU will be looking more closely at refusing any further extensions as we have become toxic to their ideology. more likely we will in effect get kicked out of the club without lifting a finger.

Re: Brexit
 

He’s not lying, the truth as always is somewhere in between. The nation is as divided and polarised as before

Img from bbc

Re: Brexit
 

They aren't going to lose any sleep over 28 MEPs out of 751. They won't turn up anyway, but will still claim the pay/pensions.
The EU may let us stay if we beg nicely, you never know our luck ;)

Re: Brexit
 

With no-deal off the cards*, the reverse could be true. The EU could focus on internal issues and less on negotiating a deal with the UK. Meaning we remain in the EU indefinitely.

* Hammond warns leadership hopefuls over no-deal Brexit stance
Chancellor says a prime minister seeking to leave EU without agreement ‘cannot expect to survive’
https://www.ft.com/content/81a42938-...5-ad75bb96c849[COLOR="Silver"]

Re: Brexit
 

You will always argue that black is white, and vice versa, just for the hell of it!

Let's state the position clearly. Those parties standing on a 'leave' manifesto:

%
Brexit 31.6
Conservatives 9.1
Labour 14.1
UKIP 3.3
_____
58.1

Those standing on a 'remain' manifesto:

Change U.K. 3.4
LibDem 20.3
Plaid 1.0
SNP 3.5
Green 12.1
____
40.3

Now I hope that is clear enough for you. Leave won by a substantial margin. That is a fact and however you spin it, that is an even more of a resounding defeat for remainers than in the referendum.

Re: Brexit
 

Stop lying Mr K, the Brexit Party has 29 MEPs not 28! :D Maybe you were missing out the Brexit MEP for NE England who lives in France and London? ;)

Re: Brexit
 

The analysis is incorrect as both Conservatives and Labour are, as things stand, Leave parties.

Re: Brexit
 

Mmm, they weren't standing on their manifestos from the last GE were they? You could ignore Labour/Con as they are split, but you could also argue their Brexit support has gone to the Brexit party.
Don't get so touchy anyway OB, the Press Association chart shows all, even if you discount Con/Lab Remainers.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cp...9-05-27-nc.png

Re: Brexit
 

If you look at the wording in the article (don’t have link to hand but will dig out) it’s comparing those who advocate a ‘hard Brexit’ vs remain so whilst your data is correct in total it also shows that in direct comparison between leaving with no deal and remaining, remain holds the advantage (at the moment)

Re: Brexit
 

Let me state clearly that you’re wrong. You’re applying votes so a single issue for Labour and the Conservatives. If Brexit supporters genuinely believed that to be the case why the exodus from both? You can’t apply Labour/Conservatives either way with any accuracy - there will have been both leave and remain voters in there.

I’m not arguing with anyone here. Simply stating facts.

Re: Brexit
 

That image is not portraying an accurate assessment of the results last night, whatsoever, so yes he is lying.

Tories campaigned on a "Get Brexit Done" - so that 9.1% for Tories can be given straight away to Leave, so it beats Remain.