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OLD BOY 07-11-2018 07:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969527)
Not an obsession. But a bit strange that on a day when he's found to be breaking the law, Brexiiters suddenly become interested in the Working Time Directive. :D
I think you will find that the Working Time Directive was quoted at the time of the referendum as an example of legislation that was unhelpful to employers.

It's far more relevant to the debate than Aaron Banks - that is just a side-show designed to undermine the result of the referendum. It won't work.

Angua 07-11-2018 07:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35969510)
My point is that employers want employees to be totally flexible to their needs and that, whilst this law does exist and will help some people, most will ultimately have no choice.
Which employers though? I have worked shifts and in shops, now office based.

A huge number of employers still want Monday to Friday in some form or another. Most people I know work Monday to Friday including delivery drivers and care home workers.

Mick 07-11-2018 07:55
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969530)
Two.
You can’t count. I see none, as usual. But please do keep wittering on about sod all.

denphone 07-11-2018 07:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35969545)
Which employers though? I have worked shifts and in shops, now office based.

A huge number of employers still want Monday to Friday in some form or another. Most people I know work Monday to Friday including delivery drivers and care home workers.
My brother works Monday to Friday but in the 8 weeks leading up to Christmas he has to work the Saturday morning as well.

Sephiroth 07-11-2018 08:00
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35969545)
Which employers though? I have worked shifts and in shops, now office based.

A huge number of employers still want Monday to Friday in some form or another. Most people I know work Monday to Friday including delivery drivers and care home workers.
... of which statistically 52% voted to leave the awful, hegemonic EU.

Mick 07-11-2018 08:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35969545)
Which employers though? I have worked shifts and in shops, now office based.

A huge number of employers still want Monday to Friday in some form or another. Most people I know work Monday to Friday including delivery drivers and care home workers.
Healthcare and or care home workers don't work just Mon - Fri, they work Sat and Sunday's as well, patients/residents don't suddenly go home for the weekend, they require round the clock care, 24/7, seven days a week, 365 days a year.

jonbxx 07-11-2018 10:42
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35969515)
A complete history here

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full...23263X18760547

Knock yourself out, once you’ve Read it, any chance of doing us a quick appraisal?
Thank you so much for such a good source! It's fairly dry but I have certainly read dryer journal articles...

OK, so a quick appraisal of the article then (these are just my thoughts and interpretations);
  • The initial proposal came from the commission as a Health and Safety proposal. The WTD does of course cover both social and Health and Safety policies. It's not clear how the initial proposal was decided to be one or the other. I have managed to find the original transmission to the Council of Ministers here - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...PC0317&from=EN
  • Including 'on call' time in the working hours is a tough one. Ideally, I would pro rate the 'on call' hours but what fraction would you assign to this on call time? Being able to pick up the phone to answer a quick question requires a whole different level of commitment to being ready to perform emergency surgery for example. Who decides the on call fraction?
  • The aim to try and enforce the WTD on a 'per person' rather than 'per contract' by the commission during the attempted reviewing of the directive would have reinforced this as an H&S directive
  • A 'per contract' enforcement of the WTD is more favourable to highly collective labour forces such as Germany and France, hence the feedback from consultations of works councils and lack of overall agreement on the setup of the WTD
  • Like many EU directives, the WTD is a bit of a fudge, balancing local customs and the need for harmonisation. The 'fudging' allowed a number of opt outs that have been used to a greater or lesser extent by member states and some of these have needed reinterpretation by CJEU

Having to need the courts to refine laws is of course nothing new. From that paper, it does look like the WTD is a pretty 'loose' law, needing quite a lot of judicial clarification. However, I don't know if this is a normal level of intervention for EU or UK laws to be honest and it would be interesting to find out.

---------- Post added at 10:42 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969534)
That link will do. The French thing is well known by those watching it at the time; they are also the ones that opposed the Services Directive for the same reasons.[COLOR="Silver"]
I still haven't found evidence that the French were responsible for making this an H&S directive rather than a social one. I have only found the original proposal from the commission where it was already an H&S one. Was it at the Commission level? Assuming it was in the Second College of the Delors Commission, the commissioner in charge of Employment, Social Affairs and Inclusion was Vasso Papandreou from Greece

Bircho 07-11-2018 11:13
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35969557)
Thank you so much for such a good source! It's fairly dry but I have certainly read dryer journal articles...

OK, so a quick appraisal of the article then (these are just my thoughts and interpretations);
  • The initial proposal came from the commission as a Health and Safety proposal. The WTD does of course cover both social and Health and Safety policies. It's not clear how the initial proposal was decided to be one or the other. I have managed to find the original transmission to the Council of Ministers here - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...PC0317&from=EN
  • Including 'on call' time in the working hours is a tough one. Ideally, I would pro rate the 'on call' hours but what fraction would you assign to this on call time? Being able to pick up the phone to answer a quick question requires a whole different level of commitment to being ready to perform emergency surgery for example. Who decides the on call fraction?
  • The aim to try and enforce the WTD on a 'per person' rather than 'per contract' by the commission during the attempted reviewing of the directive would have reinforced this as an H&S directive
  • A 'per contract' enforcement of the WTD is more favourable to highly collective labour forces such as Germany and France, hence the feedback from consultations of works councils and lack of overall agreement on the setup of the WTD
  • Like many EU directives, the WTD is a bit of a fudge, balancing local customs and the need for harmonisation. The 'fudging' allowed a number of opt outs that have been used to a greater or lesser extent by member states and some of these have needed reinterpretation by CJEU

Having to need the courts to refine laws is of course nothing new. From that paper, it does look like the WTD is a pretty 'loose' law, needing quite a lot of judicial clarification. However, I don't know if this is a normal level of intervention for EU or UK laws to be honest and it would be interesting to find out.

---------- Post added at 10:42 ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 ----------



I still haven't found evidence that the French were responsible for making this an H&S directive rather than a social one. I have only found the original proposal from the commission where it was already an H&S one. Was it at the Commission level? Assuming it was in the Second College of the Delors Commission, the commissioner in charge of Employment, Social Affairs and Inclusion was Vasso Papandreou from Greece
More to do with nmw rather than wtd but Whittlestone v BJP Home Support Ltd is the case law you need. Basically a care worker on duty overnight was to be paid even if sleeping as they were required to be on duty. By the same process the wtd would therefore also apply.

OLD BOY 07-11-2018 11:48
Re: Brexit
 
As you may deduce from the above posts, the Working Time Directive, along with much other employment related legislation (such as the Acquired Rights Directive and the General Data Protection Regulation) is an employer's nightmare.

Pierre 07-11-2018 12:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35969525)
says the man that don't understand all treaty cease mean in article 50 and cut the abuse out I never abused you and not gonna stope to your level
Quote:
Go for the ball, not the man. You weaken your subsequent points by your unnecessary put-down.
Quote:
Why don't you just stick to the facts and avoid the personal attacks?
Just calling it how I see it.

pip08456 07-11-2018 14:00
Re: Brexit
 
The Government has responded to the "Stop possible second referendum on E.U. membership" petition.

Quote:
A clear majority of the electorate voted to leave the European Union. We must respect both the will of the British people, and the democratic process which delivered this result.

The Government is clear that we will respect the result of the 2016 referendum, and that we will not hold a second referendum.

A clear majority of the electorate voted to leave the European Union in the 2016 referendum. Almost three quarters of the electorate took part in the referendum, resulting in 17.4 million votes to leave the European Union. This is the highest number of votes cast for anything in UK electoral history. This was the biggest democratic mandate for a course of action ever directed at any UK Government.

Parliament then overwhelmingly confirmed the result of the referendum by voting with clear and convincing majorities in both of its Houses for the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill.

In last year’s General Election, over 80% of people then also voted for parties committing to respect the result of the referendum - it was the stated policy of both major parties that the decision of the people would be respected. The Government is clear that it is now its duty to implement the will expressed by the electorate in the referendum - respecting both the will of the British people, and the democratic process which delivered the referendum result.

The British people must be able to trust in its Government both to effect their will, and to deliver the best outcome for them. As the Prime Minister has said: “This is about more than the decision to leave the EU; it is about whether the public can trust their politicians to put in place the decision they took.” In upholding that directive to withdraw from the European Union, the Government is delivering on that promise. We recognise that to do otherwise would be to undermine the decision of the British people, and to disrespect the powerful democratic values of this country and this government.

The Government therefore continues to be committed to delivering on the instruction given to us by the British people: working to overcome the challenges and seize the opportunities this brings to deliver an outcome which betters the lives of British people - whether they voted to Leave or to Remain.

The people of the United Kingdom gave a clear instruction and the Government is committed to seeing that through. We will leave the European Union on 29 March 2019.

Department for Exiting the European Union
(My bold)

jonbxx 07-11-2018 14:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969567)
As you may deduce from the above posts, the Working Time Directive, along with much other employment related legislation (such as the Acquired Rights Directive and the General Data Protection Regulation) is an employer's nightmare.
Oh absolutely but to not have these protections would be a employees nightmare.

Some EU countries go well beyond the directives, especially with employees rights and data protection - try backing up Belgian employee information on a US server or generating employee identifiable metrics in Germany and see how far you get! It tends to be that the countries with the best union/works council representation have the strictest regulations - you can get away with much more in the UK than Germany for example.

Damien 07-11-2018 15:23
Re: Brexit
 
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/st...88180178186241

Quote:
BREAKING: Cabinet ministers have been invited to read a copy of the draft Brexit Withdrawal Agreement this afternoon. Emergency Cabinet meeting to sign it off set to happen either tomorrow or Monday, say Whitehall sources

Dave42 07-11-2018 15:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35969593)
No10 sources say draft Withdrawal Agreement does not include Irish backstop, as that has not yet been agreed. Email to Cabinet ministers does not make that clear. Emergency meeting now looking like next week.

https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/st...91512678621186

OLD BOY 07-11-2018 15:41
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35969592)
Oh absolutely but to not have these protections would be a employees nightmare.

Some EU countries go well beyond the directives, especially with employees rights and data protection - try backing up Belgian employee information on a US server or generating employee identifiable metrics in Germany and see how far you get! It tends to be that the countries with the best union/works council representation have the strictest regulations - you can get away with much more in the UK than Germany for example.
I would prefer much more straight forward UK legislation where it is needed. EU legislation is incredibly complex. So much so that even lawyers struggle with it and are not at all sure which way cases will go.

papa smurf 07-11-2018 15:47
Re: Brexit
 
Brexit CONSPIRACY: Soubry claims Jeremy Corbyn and Theresa May are working TOGETHER


https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10...dum-deal-today


And remember to be drink aware or it will take over your life and make you bonkers ;)

denphone 07-11-2018 15:57
Re: Brexit
 
You really need to stop reading about these so called conspiracy's Papa.;)

Mr K 07-11-2018 16:20
Re: Brexit
 
This all seems very complicated ! Was supposed to be simple wasn't it ?! Seem to be going round in circles and disappearing up our own backsides.... Bet the EU wish we would !

jonbxx 07-11-2018 16:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969596)
I would prefer much more straight forward UK legislation where it is needed. EU legislation is incredibly complex. So much so that even lawyers struggle with it and are not at all sure which way cases will go.
Yeah, that's the thing I did not have a gauge on - the WTD has had to go to the CJEU for clarification as discussed in the article Pierre posted but what I don't have is information on whether this is more or less than other laws, both EU ones and UK.

Clearly we do have this situation in the UK, hence case/common law following on from statute law. If laws were watertight, there would be no case/common law and this clearly isn't what happens.

There is a layer of complexity where EU law in translated in to local legislation and the cases in that paper seemed to be around deficiencies in that translation due to lack of clarity in the initial directive. I would be interested to see if there was any evidence that local laws are simpler by definition than EU ones.

There's an interesting article on the complexity of laws including the influence of EU law here - https://assets.publishing.service.go..._8April_AP.pdf

papa smurf 07-11-2018 16:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35969598)
You really need to stop reading about these so called conspiracy's Papa.;)
You need to view the video .

Mr K 07-11-2018 16:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35969606)
You need to view the video .
Corbyn and May would make a dream team :D
A Govt. of national unity at a time of crisis- happened before , and at the way this has the potential to not work out.....

denphone 07-11-2018 16:39
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35969606)
You need to view the video .
It still does not change my original comment.

1andrew1 07-11-2018 18:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969540)
I think you will find that the Working Time Directive was quoted at the time of the referendum as an example of legislation that was unhelpful to employers.

It's far more relevant to the debate than Aaron Banks - that is just a side-show designed to undermine the result of the referendum. It won't work.
Brexiters were quoting the Working Time Directive yesterday (not 2016) when the fines of Leave.EU and Arron Banks were making headlines. Strange that. ;)

---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969548)
You can’t count. I see none, as usual. But please do keep wittering on about sod all.
Please try harder, Mick. I know you can do it. ;)

---------- Post added at 18:17 ---------- Previous post was at 18:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969567)
As you may deduce from the above posts, the Working Time Directive, along with much other employment related legislation (such as the Acquired Rights Directive and the General Data Protection Regulation) is an employer's nightmare.
Facebook and Google want the US to have similar GDPR legislation. ;)

papa smurf 07-11-2018 18:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969613)
Brexiters were quoting the Working Time Directive yesterday (not 2016) when the fines of Leave.EU and Arron Banks were making headlines. Strange that. ;)

---------- Post added at 18:14 ---------- Previous post was at 18:13 ----------


Please try harder, Mick. I know you can do it. ;)

---------- Post added at 18:17 ---------- Previous post was at 18:14 ----------


Facebook and Google want the US to have similar GDPR legislation. ;)
That fine was harsh about 12 seconds wages to A B ;)

Mick 08-11-2018 08:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35969601)
This all seems very complicated ! Was supposed to be simple wasn't it ?! Seem to be going round in circles and disappearing up our own backsides.... Bet the EU wish we would !
Yawn, more claptrap. No the EU is too busy drumming up a E.U. Defense Army, that Nick Clegg said would never happen.

Roll on 29/3/19 when we can rid ourselves of this con job joke of a union.

OLD BOY 08-11-2018 09:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969613)
Brexiters were quoting the Working Time Directive yesterday (not 2016) when the fines of Leave.EU and Arron Banks were making headlines. Strange that.
This from 2016 must be Scotch mist then! Interesting how history warps in the mind when you strain to believe things that aren't true.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7103031.html

I will say again - I am a leaver, and my reasons for wanting to leave included the suffocating, unrelentless spread of EU legislation which is hampering business; uncontrolled immigration which was impacting on our jobs, housing and public services; the fake democracy of the EU in which bureacrats, not politicians, set the agenda; the economic drag the EU was causing and the growing pressure to bail out southern EU countries tied to the Euro; the pressure to participate in taking in hordes of people crashing into the EU from African and Middle Eastern countries; membership of the Customs Union which prevented us from trading freely and under our own terms; the huge amount of money going into the EU for little benefit; the abandonment of Commonwealth countries which we saw when we joined the EEC - all these things and more.

So please stop all this nonsense about what you believe in terms of leavers' motives. Although everyone had varying reasons for wanting to leave, just about everyone would have had one or more of the same reasons as I did to support Brexit. These 'wanting to get back to our days of Empire' are complete nonsense - I would be surprised if any sane person would have thought that this is what they would get from Brexit.

It's like me saying that all those who wanted to remain were of that view simply because they wanted to take their holidays in Europe, which of course, they still can after Brexit.

I guess you will continue to use these diversionary tactics to muddy the waters and try to whip up pressure from people to demand another referendum, but you are wasting your time. Theresa May has made the position clear. Brexit means Brexit; we leave in March 2019; there will be no customs union which prevents trade deals from being forged by the UK and there will be no second referendum.

So why not start concentrating on how we benefit from leaving the EU, the practical problems to be overcome and how to overcome them and how we can exploit our new found freedoms.

That would be a much more positive and realistic debate than feebly trying to overturn a decision that has already been made and that will not change.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969648)
Yawn, more claptrap. No the EU is too busy drumming up a E.U. Defense Army, that Nick Clegg said would never happen.

Roll on 29/3/19 when we can rid ourselves of this con job joke of a union.
...And that's another reason!

Damien 08-11-2018 10:25
Re: Brexit
 
Well we could have vetoed a EU army.

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 ----------

Let another reason to stay in the EU IMO: https://twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/st...39304787202048

Quote:
THE overflowing wine cellar of the European Union now stands at 42,000 bottles with a further 1,000 bottles of Cognac, Armagnac and assorted other spirits.

Mick 08-11-2018 10:28
Re: Brexit
 
Shhhh, don’t tell Drunken Juncker.

Damien 08-11-2018 10:34
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969669)
Shhhh, don’t tell Drunken Juncker.
I think it's pretty obvious he found out about it. ;)

ianch99 08-11-2018 10:36
Re: Brexit
 
The debacle continues:

Raab: I hadn't quite understood importance of Dover-Calais crossing

Quote:
Brexit secretary Dominic Raab has told a tech event that he "hadn’t quite understood" the importance of the Dover-Calais crossing for UK trade.

According to the website Politico, Raab was speaking last night when he confirmed the choice of goods available to buy in the shops would be hit unless "frictionless trade" was maintained at the French border.

He is reported to have said: “I hadn’t quite understood the full extent of this, but if you look at the UK and look at how we trade in goods, we are particularly reliant on the Dover-Calais crossing.

"And that is one of the reasons why we have wanted to make sure we have a specific and very proximate relationship with the EU, to ensure frictionless trade at the border.

"I don’t think it is a question so much of the risk of major shortages, but I think probably the average consumer might not be aware of the full extent to which the choice of goods that we have in the stores are dependent on one or two very specific trade routes.”

Mr K 08-11-2018 10:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969648)
Yawn, more claptrap. No the EU is too busy drumming up a E.U. DefenseArmy, that Nick Clegg said would never happen.

Roll on 29/3/19 when we can rid ourselves of this con job joke of a union.
Keep telling you Mick it's defence. We aren't another state of the US (yet!)

On the 29/3 we shall no doubt still be on the/a customs union, following EU rules but with no say. Don't quite know what you think will change.

Mick 08-11-2018 12:05
Re: Brexit
 
Defense or defence - who gives a shit ?

I don't - still same meaning at the end of the day!!!

Mr K 08-11-2018 12:33
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969686)
Defense or defence - who gives a shit ?

I don't - still same meaning at the end of the day!!!
Sorry Miick, personal irritation of mine, American spellings and phrases creeping in everywhere. Maybe a sign of the way this country is going. We're English/British and proud after all ;)

OLD BOY 08-11-2018 12:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35969673)
Keep telling you Mick it's defence. We aren't another state of the US (yet!)

On the 29/3 we shall no doubt still be on the/a customs union, following EU rules but with no say. Don't quite know what you think will change.
We can only remain in the customs union until the end of the transition period at the latest because we want to strike our own trade deals.

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35969667)
Well we could have vetoed a EU army.

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 ----------

Let another reason to stay in the EU IMO: https://twitter.com/DianeJamesMEP/st...39304787202048
No, it's another reason why the EU wants a tariff-free deal with the UK!

Dave42 08-11-2018 13:33
Re: Brexit
 
Dominic Raab gives Remainers an early Xmas present with ‘mindblowing’ admission

The Brexit secretary has only just learned the importance of trade through the Dover-Calais crossing.

https://www.totalpolitics.com/articl...217;-admission

OLD BOY 08-11-2018 13:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35969697)
Dominic Raab gives Remainers an early Xmas present with ‘mindblowing’ admission

The Brexit secretary has only just learned the importance of trade through the Dover-Calais crossing.

https://www.totalpolitics.com/articl...ing’-admission
He actually said he didn't appreciate the full extent of it. That's different from saying he didn't know it was important.

Yet another remark taken out of context and blown up out of all proportion to make a story.

No wonder so many people are cynical about what they are told by the media.

denphone 08-11-2018 13:42
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35969697)
Dominic Raab gives Remainers an early Xmas present with ‘mindblowing’ admission

The Brexit secretary has only just learned the importance of trade through the Dover-Calais crossing.

https://www.totalpolitics.com/articl...ing’-admission
You really could not make up such incompetence by some in HMG.

1andrew1 08-11-2018 13:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35969697)
Dominic Raab gives Remainers an early Xmas present with ‘mindblowing’ admission

The Brexit secretary has only just learned the importance of trade through the Dover-Calais crossing.

https://www.totalpolitics.com/articl...ing’-admission
More Project Fear! :D

---------- Post added at 13:59 ---------- Previous post was at 13:58 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969698)
He actually said he didn't appreciate the full extent of it. That's different from saying he didn't know it was important.

Yet another remark taken out of context and blown up out of all proportion to make a story.

No wonder so many people are cynical about what they are told by the media.
Is this Project Semantics? ;)

Mr K 08-11-2018 14:25
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969698)
He actually said he didn't appreciate the full extent of it.
Well the crossing goes from our coast to their coast, it is a mind blowing concept :D

Sephiroth 08-11-2018 17:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969613)
Brexiters were quoting the Working Time Directive yesterday (not 2016) when the fines of Leave.EU and Arron Banks were making headlines. Strange that.
<SNIP>
You're strange. I've said that Aaron Banks is for the clutching-at-straw merchants. I've also said what I've always said about the EU being a con-merchant organisation and explained why.

It beggars belief that several Remainers on this thread are in denial over things like that.


---------- Post added at 17:05 ---------- Previous post was at 17:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969698)
He actually said he didn't appreciate the full extent of it. That's different from saying he didn't know it was important.

Yet another remark taken out of context and blown up out of all proportion to make a story.

No wonder so many people are cynical about what they are told by the media.
If Raab didn't appreciate the full extent of the importance of Dover-Calais (have I misunderstood?) then what hope is there for us with this cabinet?

OLD BOY 08-11-2018 17:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969719)
If Raab didn't appreciate the full extent of the importance of Dover-Calais (have I misundderstood?) then what hope is there for us with this cabinet?
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Dover only handles 6% of the total amount of freight handled at UK ports, and no doubt he was looking at it in that light.

heero_yuy 08-11-2018 17:54
Re: Brexit
 
Well if the French want to play up the Dutch are only too keen to take the business.

Sephiroth 08-11-2018 18:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969690)
We can only remain in the customs union until the end of the transition period at the latest because we want to strike our own trade deals.

---------- Post added at 12:59 ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 ----------



No, it's another reason why the EU wants a tariff-free deal with the UK!
The EU has no intention of reaching a trade deal with the UK except on their terms - which are being bound to the Customs Union.

Surely that is staring you in the face? The evidence is glaring in front of you.



---------- Post added at 18:09 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969727)
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Dover only handles 6% of the total amount of freight handled at UK ports, and no doubt he was looking at it in that light.
Beg to differ

https://www.britishports.org.uk/syst...time_ports.pdf

A snippet:

At present roughly half of the trade passing through the sea ports of the UK is customs free trade with the other 27 members of the EU. Dover is the dominant port for EU trade, accounting for 22% of the total (exports plus imports)
.

Hom3r 08-11-2018 18:31
Re: Brexit
 
I think remoaners are trying anything to discredit the leavers.

If they actually put energy into helping leave it would be better.

OLD BOY 08-11-2018 18:44
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969729)
The EU has no intention of reaching a trade deal with the UK except on their terms - which are being bound to the Customs Union.

Surely that is staring you in the face? The evidence is glaring in front of you.



---------- Post added at 18:09 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------



Beg to differ

https://www.britishports.org.uk/syst...time_ports.pdf

A snippet:

At present roughly half of the trade passing through the sea ports of the UK is customs free trade with the other 27 members of the EU. Dover is the dominant port for EU trade, accounting for 22% of the total (exports plus imports)
.
Firstly, the simple fact is that if the EU doesn't climb down from its high horse, there will be no trade deal. But then you have the Ireland/Northern Ireland border problem, and the EU doesn't want a hard border. Something has to give.

On your second point, that 6% figure was quoted by the BBC just today and it is correct. The figures you quote relate to UK/EU trade. It seems to me that Raab was assuming EU trade could take place from many other ports, but maybe didn't take full account of the impact of that on speedy and frictionless trade. Incidentally, this is a new role for him, so this initial period of office is when you become aware of some finer details which may not have been clear to you before taking on the role.

ianch99 08-11-2018 18:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969729)
The EU has no intention of reaching a trade deal with the UK except on their terms - which are being bound to the Customs Union.

Surely that is staring you in the face? The evidence is glaring in front of you.



---------- Post added at 18:09 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------



Beg to differ

https://www.britishports.org.uk/syst...time_ports.pdf

A snippet:

At present roughly half of the trade passing through the sea ports of the UK is customs free trade with the other 27 members of the EU. Dover is the dominant port for EU trade, accounting for 22% of the total (exports plus imports)
.
I agree with Seph: in this 2014 report, Dover is 3rd in the list when viewed in traded value:

http://www.abports.co.uk/content/fil...s%20Report.pdf

Quote:
Table 3: UK international trade by estimated value through the major port, 2014

Major Port Value (£'000s)
Felixstowe 74,526,911
Southampton 71,370,110
Dover 69,495,287

OLD BOY 08-11-2018 18:55
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35969745)
I agree with Seph: in this 2014 report, Dover is 3rd in the list when viewed in traded value:

http://www.abports.co.uk/content/fil...s%20Report.pdf
I don't dispute that, but this figure relates only to EU trade. The 6% relates to all trade.

Sephiroth 08-11-2018 19:31
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969747)
I don't dispute that, but this figure relates only to EU trade. The 6% relates to all trade.
Obviously world trade is not destined to Dover from Calais. The thread is about Brexit. Your 6% is irrelevant.

Pierre 08-11-2018 19:42
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35969703)
Well the crossing goes from our coast to their coast, it is a mind blowing concept :D
Calais is Important, but Rotterdam is more important.

So I can understand if he though that Dover - Calais was more tourism oriented.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...16-revised.pdf

1andrew1 08-11-2018 21:57
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969750)
Obviously world trade is not destined to Dover from Calais. The thread is about Brexit. Your 6% is irrelevant.
On that point, I can readily agree. :)
I have heard that companies are exploring other ports to replace Dover as more global ports have more extensive customs areas and holding areas for lorries compared to Dover, an EU-only port.

Sephiroth 08-11-2018 23:09
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969765)
On that point, I can readily agree. :)
I have heard that companies are exploring other ports to replace Dover as more global ports have more extensive customs areas and holding areas for lorries compared to Dover, an EU-only port.
Makes sense.

Mr K 09-11-2018 08:49
Re: Brexit
 
I'm more worried about Dover's football team, very poor of late. Maybe Brexit is affecting their performance?

OLD BOY 09-11-2018 09:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969750)
Obviously world trade is not destined to Dover from Calais. The thread is about Brexit. Your 6% is irrelevant.
As an explanation for why Raab may not have given sufficient regard to the importance of the Dover-Calais crossing, it is not irrelevant, although it may not be what you wanted to hear. :D

Bircho 09-11-2018 13:24
Re: Brexit
 
Have to say the Tory party is like the blind leading the blind. Raab and Redwood fighting it out for biggest idiot award:
https://twitter.com/johnredwood/stat...590944768?s=19

Sephiroth 09-11-2018 13:55
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969790)
As an explanation for why Raab may not have given sufficient regard to the importance of the Dover-Calais crossing, it is not irrelevant, although it may not be what you wanted to hear. :D
Look, I'm a Leave supporter. But I don't make apologies for the stupid government who are wrecking the Referendum result. An ignorant minister, and one who publicly admits that ignorance doesn't help.

Then you come along and try to soften the consequences of Raab's ignorance. What I do want to hear from you, as if I had any rights in that regard, is anything realistic that can propel us towards a decent Brexit.

Mr K 09-11-2018 16:14
Re: Brexit
 
Another one bites the dust ....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46155403
Quote:
Transport minister Jo Johnson has quit the government, calling for the public to have a fresh say on Brexit.

The MP, who is Boris Johnson's brother, said the UK was "barrelling towards an incoherent Brexit that is going to leave us trapped in a subordinate relationship to the EU".

It was "imperative" to "go back to the people and check they are content to proceed on this extraordinary basis".
The more sensible of the Johnson offspring, but that's not saying much.

'Going back to the people' - now that's a cracking idea !

denphone 09-11-2018 16:19
Re: Brexit
 
Brexit is going to happen Mr K but its sure been a complete and utter omnishambles since the referendum.

Sephiroth 09-11-2018 16:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bircho (Post 35969813)
Have to say the Tory party is like the blind leading the blind. Raab and Redwood fighting it out for biggest idiot award:
https://twitter.com/johnredwood/stat...590944768?s=19
Nothing wrong with what John Redwood said:

"Memo to Dominic Raab - There's plenty of channel & North Sea ports allowing easy passage of goods from the continent to the UK. The Dutch & Belgian ports would love to lift more of the Calais-Dover trade. Calais has made quite clear it wants to keep the trade. No need to worry."

Bircho 09-11-2018 16:36
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969849)
Nothing wrong with what John Redwood said:

"Memo to Dominic Raab - There's plenty of channel & North Sea ports allowing easy passage of goods from the continent to the UK. The Dutch & Belgian ports would love to lift more of the Calais-Dover trade. Calais has made quite clear it wants to keep the trade. No need to worry."
So you can join them in knowing absolutely nothing on how the infrastructure of this country works.

Sephiroth 09-11-2018 18:08
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bircho (Post 35969851)
So you can join them in knowing absolutely nothing on how the infrastructure of this country works.
John Redwood knows perfectly how UK infrastructure works. I've known him for 30 years and he is right on the ball at all times.

Hugh 09-11-2018 19:20
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969863)
John Redwood knows perfectly how UK infrastructure works. I've known him for 30 years and he is right on the ball at all times.
I first met him at a Tory Party Conference in the early 80s, when he worked in the Policy Unit, and he never let facts get in the way of his beliefs- he hasn’t changed much since then.

Remember, this is the man who advised investors to take their money out of the UK whilst backing Brexit.

Dave42 09-11-2018 19:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969876)
I first met him at a Tory Party Conference in the early 80s, when he worked in the Policy Unit, and he never let facts get in the way of his beliefs- he hasn’t changed much since then.

Remember, this is the man who advised investors to take their money out of the UK whilst backing Brexit.
exactly more project FACT

richard s 09-11-2018 19:33
Re: Brexit
 
John (Spock) Redwood on the ball... he sure is, that would be a crystal ball would it.


This country is not using the channel tunnel crossing link properly in my view. Lorries are loaded onto trains for a short distance and then they drive miles to a destination on either side of the channel. What should have happened is that trains should have been loaded with containers and travel on near to their destination (distribution centers). Distribution centers in every country with their own lorries for dispatching said goods.


Our rail network is so under used.... There are too many lorries on our roads.

jonbxx 09-11-2018 21:12
Re: Brexit
 
Of course it’s a well known fact that Dutch and Belgian ports or indeed any other port in the EU won’t have to work to the same regulations and standards as Calais. It’s not like there’s a single market or anything.

I honestly don’t think John Redwood is stupid but I do think he thinks everyone else is.

Sephiroth 09-11-2018 23:37
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35969877)
exactly more project FACT
It's Hugh's statement based on one meeting before he was an MP that's claimed to be a fact above my opinion based on 30 years' knowledge of the man.

That is Dave being shallow and with little or no knowledge of the man (not as if Hugh knew him to any extent either).

Hugh 09-11-2018 23:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969905)
It's Hugh's statement based on one meeting before he was an MP that's claimed to be a fact above my opinion based on 30 years' knowledge of the man.

That is Dave being shallow and with little or no knowledge of the man (not as if Hugh knew him to any extent either).
no, the FACT was
Quote:
Remember, this is the man who advised investors to take their money out of the UK whilst backing Brexit.

Sephiroth 09-11-2018 23:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969906)
no, the FACT was
So what? During the guvmin induced chaos, the £ was hammered. He is an investment advisor and has to advise honestly.

On Brexit, he objects to the hegemony that I've been on about as distinct from the Common Market we originally joined.

All perfectly reasonable.

1andrew1 10-11-2018 00:05
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969907)
So what? During the guvmin induced chaos, the £ was hammered. He is an investment advisor and has to advise honestly.

On Brexit, he objects to the hegemony that I've been on about as distinct from the Common Market we originally joined.

All perfectly reasonable.
The dispute isn't whether his investment advice was good or bad. It's more that you initially gave a strong impression that he gave no such advice in the first place.

Sephiroth 10-11-2018 00:21
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969908)
The dispute isn't whether his investment advice was good or bad. It's more that you initially gave a strong impression that he gave no such advice in the first place.
Nothing of the sort. What did I say to give you that impression?

1andrew1 10-11-2018 08:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969909)
Nothing of the sort. What did I say to give you that impression?
You gave that impression to others too.
Post 2762. You quoted Dave who noted it was Project Fact that John Redwood had advised investors to take their money out of the country.
You quoted Dave's post and replied "That is Dave being shallow and with little or no knowledge of the man"

---------- Post added at 08:51 ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35969886)
Of course it’s a well known fact that Dutch and Belgian ports or indeed any other port in the EU won’t have to work to the same regulations and standards as Calais. It’s not like there’s a single market or anything.
The issue is that Dover just deals in EU traffic so is designed for this set-up, whereas the Belgium and Dutch ports have trade from outside the EI so could more easily handle inspections, lorry-parking etc. However, they are a further distance from the UK so extra costs would be incurred. Hull-Rotterdam is some eleven hours, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35969886)
I honestly don’t think John Redwood is stupid but I do think he thinks everyone else is.
He can sometimes give that impression. I guess it's his personality with his accountant's roots. Maybe Seph can pass on this constructive feedback next time they meet. :)

Sephiroth 10-11-2018 09:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969914)
You gave that impression to others too.
Post 2762. You quoted Dave who noted it was Project Fact that John Redwood had advised investors to take their money out of the country.
You quoted Dave's post and replied "That is Dave being shallow and with little or no knowledge of the man"
<SNIP>
That is a huge reach. As in interpreting what I said in the manner that suited you. Anyway, I've put the record straight now.

Sephiroth 10-11-2018 13:16
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969914)

He [John Redwood] can sometimes give that impression [being stupid]. I guess it's his personality with his accountant's roots. Maybe Seph can pass on this constructive feedback next time they meet. :)
This is really bad form on your part. First, regarding his “accountant’s roots” presumably you knew it was his father that had been an accountant, not JR? Why would that give an impression that JR is stupid. A personality doesn’t develop because of the father’s profession as an account. Very shallow and beneath the level at which you should be posting.

Second, can you debate something he’s said, for example, in his extensive blog, that gives the impression that he is stupid? Not something with which you merely disagree, but a real gaff.

Shallow, shallow, shallow. You and those who are taking the same line.

1andrew1 10-11-2018 14:17
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969943)
This is really bad form on your part. First, regarding his “accountant’s roots” presumably you knew it was his father that had been an accountant, not JR? Why would that give an impression that JR is stupid. A personality doesn’t develop because of the father’s profession as an account. Very shallow and beneath the level at which you should be posting.

Second, can you debate something he’s said, for example, in his extensive blog, that gives the impression that he is stupid? Not something with which you merely disagree, but a real gaff.

Shallow, shallow, shallow. You and those who are taking the same line.
Eh.What on Earth are you on about? :D I agreed with Jon's point that he sometimes gives the impression he thinks others are stupid. You are putting false words in my post.

---------- Post added at 14:17 ---------- Previous post was at 14:01 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969943)
This is really bad form on your part. First, regarding his “accountant’s roots” presumably you knew it was his father that had been an accountant, not JR? Why would that give an impression that JR is stupid. A personality doesn’t develop because of the father’s profession as an account. Very shallow and beneath the level at which you should be posting.

Second, can you debate something he’s said, for example, in his extensive blog, that gives the impression that he is stupid? Not something with which you merely disagree, but a real gaff.

Shallow, shallow, shallow. You and those who are taking the same line.
Eh.What on Earth are you on about? :D I agreed with Jon's point that he is not stupid but sometimes gives the impression he thinks others are stupid. You are putting false words in my post.

OLD BOY 10-11-2018 15:06
Re: Brexit
 
That was certainly worth saying twice!

Sephiroth 10-11-2018 15:12
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969946)
Eh.What on Earth are you on about? :D I agreed with Jon's point that he sometimes gives the impression he thinks others are stupid. You are putting false words in my post.

---------- Post added at 14:17 ---------- Previous post was at 14:01 ----------


Eh.What on Earth are you on about? :D I agreed with Jon's point that he is not stupid but sometimes gives the impression he thinks others are stupid. You are putting false words in my post.
You actually said: "He can sometimes give that impression. I guess it's his personality with his accountant's roots.". I put no words into your mouth.

Hom3r 10-11-2018 15:53
Re: Brexit
 
Planet Earth to Remainers.

There will NOT be another referendum to stay in the EU.

Please move on, it's got very boring.

pip08456 10-11-2018 18:31
Re: Brexit
 
:clap::clap::clap:

OLD BOY 10-11-2018 19:23
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35969955)
Planet Earth to Remainers.

There will NOT be another referendum to stay in the EU.

Please move on, it's got very boring.
A timely reminder, Hom3r. I think we should put this on repeat!:D

Hugh 10-11-2018 19:26
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969992)
A timely reminder, Hom3r. I think we should put this on repeat!:D
If something is repeated often enough, it becomes the truth.. ;)

---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969953)
You actually said: "He can sometimes give that impression. I guess it's his personality with his accountant's roots.". I put no words into your mouth.
OED - 2.1 roots - Family, ethnic, or cultural origins.

‘Family’ - his father was an accountant.

Mr K 10-11-2018 19:59
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 35969955)
Planet Earth to Remainers.

There will NOT be another referendum to stay in the EU.

Please move on, it's got very boring.
Not a referendum on staying in the EU , but maybe on any proposed deal... There is every prospect of the politicians failing to agree ( surprise, surprise) so we may need to do their job for them. Still puzzled why Brexiteers are petrified of another vote, the case is overwhelming isn't it ? Are they not confident of public support any longer??

As for TM saying no way, she also swore blind there wouldn't be an election in 2017....

OLD BOY 10-11-2018 20:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969993)
If something is repeated often enough, it becomes the truth..
That is true, but I'm not sure why you have made this comment. After all, it is the truth.

---------- Post added at 20:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35969999)
Not a referendum on staying in the EU , but maybe on any proposed deal... There is every prospect of the politicians failing to agree ( surprise, surprise) so we may need to do their job for them. Still puzzled why Brexiteers are petrified of another vote, the case is overwhelming isn't it ? Are they not confident of public support any longer??

As for TM saying no way, she also swore blind there wouldn't be an election in 2017....

Sephiroth 10-11-2018 20:14
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35969993)
If something is repeated often enough, it becomes the truth.. ;)

---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:25 ----------

OED - 2.1 roots - Family, ethnic, or cultural origins.

‘Family’ - his father was an accountant.
And it's an implausible stretch to accuse JR of having stupid moments because of that. Plus I pointed out it was JR's father.

OLD BOY 10-11-2018 20:15
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35969999)
Not a referendum on staying in the EU , but maybe on any proposed deal... There is every prospect of the politicians failing to agree ( surprise, surprise) so we may need to do their job for them. Still puzzled why Brexiteers are petrified of another vote, the case is overwhelming isn't it ? Are they not confident of public support any longer??

As for TM saying no way, she also swore blind there wouldn't be an election in 2017....
But that's not an option, Mr K! We may want a different deal, but why should the EU accept that? Are you really saying we should have yet another two years of negotiations? Forget it, the public really will not stand for that!
Brexiteers just want to get on with implementing the will of the voting electorate. Another vote is yet a further waste of time and we want to get on with this.

Sephiroth 10-11-2018 20:24
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35969999)
Not a referendum on staying in the EU , but maybe on any proposed deal... There is every prospect of the politicians failing to agree ( surprise, surprise) so we may need to do their job for them. Still puzzled why Brexiteers are petrified of another vote, the case is overwhelming isn't it ? Are they not confident of public support any longer??

As for TM saying no way, she also swore blind there wouldn't be an election in 2017....
Don't count me in that number (petrified of another vote). If it occurred, and we decided to stay, we'd have new kind of fun fighting those undemocratic scheisters.

If we had to vote on the deal (should it be offered by the guvmin) then if it is rejected by the people, what then? No deal.

What I really think will happen, is that TM will fall and the new PM/cabinet will sort it out on a basis other then what TM is currently about to announce.

Pierre 10-11-2018 20:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35969999)
Not a referendum on staying in the EU , but maybe on any proposed deal..
OK special K, let’s bottom this out.

What would be the options on this Referendum?

Mr K 10-11-2018 20:30
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970003)
But that's not an option, Mr K! We may want a different deal, but why should the EU accept that? Are you really saying we should have yet another two years of negotiations? Forget it, the public really will not stand for that!
Brexiteers just want to get on with implementing the will of the voting electorate. Another vote is yet a further waste of time and we want to get on with this.
Well your wonder woman TMs master plan is hated by Brexiteers, Remainders, the DUP, the EU .... This is going nowhere, that's why the people have to be consulted again.

OLD BOY 10-11-2018 20:38
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970005)
Don't count me in that number (petrified of another vote). If it occurred, and we decided to stay, we'd have new kind of fun fighting those undemocratic scheisters.

If we had to vote on the deal (should it be offered by the guvmin) then if it is rejected by the people, what then? No deal.

What I really think will happen, is that TM will fall and the new PM/cabinet will sort it out on a basis other then what TM is currently about to announce.
And what makes you think we will ever get the EU to accept that?

You are actually talking about a 'no deal' which means we have a little Irish border situation. I would be very interested to know how you would deal with that.

You may criticise Theresa May, but she seems to be the only one able to keep her nerve to negotiate a practical deal that might actually work.

If you think she's wrong, what would you do?

It's easy to criticise those who are trying to do a decent job. When you learn how to spell 'government' I might take your posts a little more seriously.

denphone 10-11-2018 20:40
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970008)
Well your wonder woman TMs master plan is hated by Brexiteers, Remainders, the DUP, the EU .... This is going nowhere, that's why the people have to be consulted again.
l certainly don't want another referendum personally but currently the omnishambles and incompetence as it is akin to a very bad train wreck.

Dave42 10-11-2018 20:47
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970012)
l certainly don't want another referendum personally but currently the omnishambles and incompetence as it is akin to a very bad train wreck.
what if parliament cant agree anything Den

Mr K 10-11-2018 20:49
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970012)
l certainly don't want another referendum personally but currently the omnishambles and incompetence as it is akin to a very bad train wreck.
So what's your answer to it all Den?

denphone 10-11-2018 20:50
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35970016)
what if parliament cant agree anything Den
Highly unlikely as it stands Dave.

Dave42 10-11-2018 20:51
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970018)
Highly unlikely as it stands Dave.
highly likely Den brexiteers not happy remainers not happy DUP not happy

denphone 10-11-2018 20:54
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970017)
So what's your answer to it all Den?
You tell me as there are far more articulate intelligent people on this forum who might give you the answer to that Mr K as l just say it as it is in my mind.

Mr K 10-11-2018 21:07
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970021)
You tell me as there are far more articulate intelligent people on this forum who might give you the answer to that Mr K as l just say it as it is in my mind.
Well I have sort of said we need to go back to the people if the politicians have failed us.

P.S. Nothing wrong with saying what's on your mind, you're as articulate and intelligent as anyone on here, but sometimes you have to come off the fence...

OLD BOY 10-11-2018 21:27
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35970012)
l certainly don't want another referendum personally but currently the omnishambles and incompetence as it is akin to a very bad train wreck.
You can't just sit on the fence criticising, Den. That's the easiest option.

If you think the government is handling this badly, what would your definition be of handling it well?

We are facing a hostile EU, whom Theresa is dragging into a situation they want to be in. At the same time, TM has to sort out the border issue, the remainers, her own party, and parliament. She's working against the odds - don't you think it's time we gave her a little slack?

Without her efforts, it would be a hard Brexit, only option. I didn't think you wanted that.

---------- Post added at 21:27 ---------- Previous post was at 21:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970023)
Well I have sort of said we need to go back to the people if the politicians have failed us.

P.S. Nothing wrong with saying what's on your mind, you're as articulate and intelligent as anyone on here, but sometimes you have to come off the fence...
On your PS, we are in agreement. That's a nice feeling, Mr K, keep it up!

Sephiroth 10-11-2018 21:56
Re: Brexit
 
Because we are facing a hostile EU, we should walk away. They are not decent partners.

OLD BOY 10-11-2018 21:58
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970037)
Because we are facing a hostile EU, we should walk away. They are not decent partners.
Fine. What would you do about the disruption to business and frictionless trade, and what would you do about the Irish border?

Pierre 10-11-2018 22:06
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35970007)
OK special K, let’s bottom this out.

What would be the options on this Referendum?
Come on Mr K, I think you’re ignoring me. I ask again, what would be the options on your referendum?

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35970023)
Well I have sort of said we need to go back to the people if the politicians have failed us.
...
And ask them what?

Sephiroth 10-11-2018 22:10
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35970038)
Fine. What would you do about the disruption to business and frictionless trade, and what would you do about the Irish border?
There are some principles by which we should stand.

A perfidious neighbour cannot be trusted - so to hell with them until they reform by becoming reasonable and accommodating.

They will allow frictionless trade only on their terms. So to hell with that too.

As to the Irish border question - let them build a border (which they won't). It's an artificial argument put up by them as an obstacle, solely to protect Irish exports. To hell with that too.

The EU has shown us their true colours and we must face that down.

OLD BOY 10-11-2018 22:11
Re: Brexit
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35970040)
Come on Mr K, I think you’re ignoring me. I ask again, what would be the options on your referendum?

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------


And ask them what?
Spot on, Pierre! People on this forum need to get real. The only options are the negotiated deal with the EU or no deal. I can't believe that so many remainers can't see this.

---------- Post added at 22:11 ---------- Previous post was at 22:10 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35970042)
There are some principles by which we should stand.

A perfidious neighbour cannot be trusted - so to hell with them until they reform by becoming reasonable and accommodating.

They will allow frictionless trade only on their terms. So to hell with that too.

As to the Irish border question - let them build a border (which they won't). It's an artificial argument put up by them as an obstacle, solely to protect Irish exports. To hell with that too.

The EU has shown us their true colours and we must face that down.
Interesting response. Good luck with that.


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