Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947231)

. . if we said enough of this and walked away from the negotiations we'd quickly get a change of attitude

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947231)

I wasn't aware you've been present in the cabinet meetings all this time and these negotiations have been made harder then they needed to be because of the attitude the EU had going into this. I know you prefer to attribute all blame on the UK government and let the EU off scott free but despite your opinion there is growing opinion that the problem is the EU and it's desire to punish the UK. They are not doing it out of any real dislike for the UK they are doing it to try and prevent other members taking our route in the future. When it suits the EU it's happy to forget it's rules to achieve a desired outcome and the irish border issue is solvable and could be made to work but it takes two willing to agree on the solution.

As i said if we said enough of this and walked away from the negotiations we'd quickly get a change of attitude but theresa may having weakened her position and being a remainer at heart doesn't have the stomach to do it. We voted to fully leave the EU not stay in some areas and a withdrawal that doesn't allow us to agree our own trade deals is a big red line to cross and will create major problems.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35947233)

I think any sane person trying to negotiate a deal with a brick wall would walk away :D

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947237)

As much as I'd prefer that northern ireland remain in the union if it's a choice between that and us fully exiting the EU then united ireland it is.

Originally Posted by arcimedes (Post 35947235)

I have just asked my wall for its opinion and it wouldn't even condescend to acknowledge I was there.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35947116)

The issue isn't goods moving back and forth but keeping track of what's gone back and forth. The EU doesn't want a bunch of cheap imported meat going into Ireland and then entering the wider EU unnoticed, passed off as Irish Beef maybe. This is why there are customs checks.

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 35947247)

But if we agree with Eire about what comes in/out of our "other" borders then it becomes moot what moves across the UK/Eire border. Eire then becomes the point at which we negotiate.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35947116)

The issue isn't goods moving back and forth but keeping track of what's gone back and forth. The EU doesn't want a bunch of cheap imported meat going into Ireland and then entering the wider EU unnoticed, passed off as Irish Beef maybe. This is why there are customs checks.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947231)

I wasn't aware you've been present in the cabinet meetings all this time and these negotiations have been made harder then they needed to be because of the attitude the EU had going into this. I know you prefer to attribute all blame on the UK government and let the EU off scott free but despite your opinion there is growing opinion that the problem is the EU and it's desire to punish the UK. They are not doing it out of any real dislike for the UK they are doing it to try and prevent other members taking our route in the future. When it suits the EU it's happy to forget it's rules to achieve a desired outcome and the irish border issue is solvable and could be made to work but it takes two willing to agree on the solution.

As i said if we said enough of this and walked away from the negotiations we'd quickly get a change of attitude but theresa may having weakened her position and being a remainer at heart doesn't have the stomach to do it. We voted to fully leave the EU not stay in some areas and a withdrawal that doesn't allow us to agree our own trade deals is a big red line to cross and will create major problems.

Originally Posted by arcimedes (Post 35947235)

That really sums up the attitude on both sides.

Any sane person would never have got in this position to start with.

I have just asked my wall for its opinion and it wouldn't even condescend to acknowledge I was there.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947251)

Damien despite what some people are constantly saying people did know what they were voting for total and complete withdrawal from the EU and everything that entails and quite a lot voted that way knowing we'd have a period of uncertainty and economic decline. We've been told numerous times that we're leaving the customs union and single market which is what we voted for and anything less then that is ignoring a rather large percentage of the UK public. As i said the damage that will be done if we don't leave fully and completely could be very bad for this country.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947251)

Damien despite what some people are constantly saying people did know what they were voting for total and complete withdrawal from the EU and everything that entails and quite a lot voted that way knowing we'd have a period of uncertainty and economic decline. We've been told numerous times that we're leaving the customs union and single market which is what we voted for and anything less then that is ignoring a rather large percentage of the UK public. As i said the damage that will be done if we don't leave fully and completely could be very bad for this country.

Originally Posted by Bircho (Post 35947260)

Did love this tweet about Brexit. Probably the best analogy I've seen:

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/996821085575434240

.....

And there follows some very amusing responses

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947715)

https://news.sky.com/story/carney-se...comes-11381658

£900 a year is what it's costing you folks, to get the country back from God knows who .... And our economic growth has ground to a halt, however the Eurozone steams ahead.
Brexit hasn't even happened yet, this is just the reaction to the prospect of it. Never mind Boris is ordering a new Jet for Brexit business, hope he's not raiding all that NHS money he promised.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35947719)

Mark Carney's predictions are as reliable as a 3 month ahead weather forecast. He has been consitently wrong post Brexit and continues in vein.

The reduction in growth to near zero in the first quarter of this year was dominated by a fall in the construction sector of ~6%, mainly due to the appaling weather and precious little to do with Brexit.

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947747)

Ah bless MrK found himself something to cheer him up hopefully he'll quit while he's ahead and go enjoy a drink in his garden. Carney is about as reliable as a north korean takeaway the guy has a lousy track record and hopefully when he goes we will get somebody a lot better. Even if it were true it's a price many of us are willing to pay to get out of the EU hell double and triple it still a bargain to be out of the EU and not long now till we are out.

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35947761)

I am sure someone will be along with the right figures if the Bank of England is wrong in their summary of the economy over the last couple of years....

The question is why, if Mark Carney is so bad, did the government want him to extend his contract?

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947762)

Failing upwards seems to be the norm these days boris johnson is proof of that Jon.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35947764)

It looked to me as though in the days after the referendum Carney was the only person in high office who wasn't sat there wide eyed like a rabbit in the headlights, I remember seeing headlines in papers like the express that he saved 250 000 jobs in the immediate aftermath whilst the only jobs Dave and Gideon were concerned about were there own.

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35947767)

I remember ages ago (and I wish I could find it now) there was an interview of what it was like at the Bank of England the night of the 23rd June 2016. There was some secret exit polling going on before the real results and three contingencies were prepared; remain, leave, and too close to call.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35947718)

Mark Carney has claimed the Brexit vote has left households £900 worse off annually, describing the sum as "a lot of money."

He's just another Euro lover that needs to hide the fact he's pretty useless at his job.

Was it the Brexit vote that has increased oil prices?

Was it the Brexit vote that pushed the local councils into the desperate attempts to 'save' £millions every year on their budgets?

Was it the Brexit vote that has decimated the high streets, or caused the ongoing closures of many named companies?

Was it the Brexit vote that has held interest rates at low levels for years?

Was it the Brexit vote that encouraged the shenanigans of the bankers/traders - something we're still paying for?

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35947790)

Still waiting for the milk and honey though and the new blue passport from just over the water..;):D

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35947761)

I am sure someone will be along with the right figures if the Bank of England is wrong in their summary of the economy over the last couple of years....

The question is why, if Mark Carney is so bad, did the government want him to extend his contract?

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35947767)

I remember ages ago (and I wish I could find it now) there was an interview of what it was like at the Bank of England the night of the 23rd June 2016. There was some secret exit polling going on before the real results and three contingencies were prepared; remain, leave, and too close to call.

It was a long nervous night and next day as the markets globally reacted to the result apparently!

---------- Post added at 21:21 ---------- Previous post was at 21:16 ----------



That’s £385m a week!

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947824)

Because the Government get kudos each time his forecasts are proved wrong! Boom, boom!:rofl:

---------- Post added at 13:49 ---------- Previous post was at 13:45 ----------



That Thompson bloke looked to me like he was contemplating a nervous breakdown. I wonder if he gets an EU pension?

I wouldn't take these figures too seriously, to be honest. It's just part of Project Fear II.

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35947854)

It doesn't look like he worked for the EU looking at his profile page - https://www.gov.uk/government/people/jon-thompson--3

So, if the figures are project fear, what are the real numbers?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947910)

Well, that's the whole point, nobody knows because we don't know what form this customs deal will ultimately take. All these figures are wild speculation, and inflated beyond credibility.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947910)

Well, that's the whole point, nobody knows because we don't know what form this customs deal will ultimately take. All these figures are wild speculation, and inflated beyond credibility.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35947920)

They are not credible. It really is that simples.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35947934)

Not even the Governor of the bank of England has the foresight to see in the future and what trade deals we can do once we leave.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947910)

Well, that's the whole point, nobody knows because we don't know what form this customs deal will ultimately take. All these figures are wild speculation, and inflated beyond credibility.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35947914)

Don't you think we should know by now? It's as if the Govt. doesn't have a clue either....

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35947939)

No one can see that far into the future, that's for sure.

https://www.ft.com/content/12b54086-...4-2218e7146b04

---------- Post added at 23:22 ---------- Previous post was at 23:18 ----------


Surely if the figures are wrong in one direction, they could be equally wrong in another and deflated? It's not in Mark Carney's interests to get these things deliberately wrong as it would hinder his job prospects both in the UK and outside it.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947947)

If all goes well, we will be better off, not worse off.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947947)

No. We are still negotiating.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35947953)

Gain of 0.7% with new deals. Loss of 5% from current ones. Net loss of 4.3% so we'd be worse off.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35947953)

Agreed. Alas within the Conservative Party.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947961)

Of course, a consequence of the lack of a majority in the House of Commons.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947961)

Of course, a consequence of the lack of a majority in the House of Commons.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35947963)

You shy away from the facts of £900 worse off so why bother about forecasts? Might be small change to Rees-Mogg but not the rest of us.

Partly the lack of a majority but mainly because Europe has always divided the Conservatives.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947910)

Well, that's the whole point, nobody knows because we don't know what form this customs deal will ultimately take. All these figures are wild speculation, and inflated beyond credibility.

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35947980)

He was commenting on a proposal from the government. If we went down the road of the 'Max Fac' deal proposed, that's what it would cost. Of course the final deal may give different results but you can certainly model potential scenarios to get some ideas of relative costs.

Not modelling outcomes of proposals as we don't know 100% what will happen is a very 'zen' way of doing things but not a way to run a country. It is right for the HMRC, the countries experts in revenue and customs of course, to run models and feed these back to the politicians to aid decision making. Otherwise, we're just guessing...

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35947983)

Yes, I agree that we have to cost the different scenarios, but these costs are based on assumptions that we will not find a way around the problems. They are based on worst case scenarios, but people seem to take these figures as indisputable facts as to how much a proposal will cost.

Where Brexit is concerned, all these people can focus on are costs when Brexit protagonists are convinced that there will be economic gains. A more balanced approach indicating the net financial implications, based on a reasonable interpretation of what is likely to happen, would be a better approach to take, because that would tell the real story.

Most forecasts I have seen concentrate on worst case scenarios which assume failed negotiations and no benefits of Brexit.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948037)

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948037)

We're already seeing a limp economy (worst for five years) . . .

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948037)

Do not take at face value what the Express and Sun tell you to think, Old Boy, reassuring as it is. Have you forgotten the Government's own predictions that show a reduction in GDP? They looked at all scenarios, not just a hard Brexit. Or pretty much all the other models except Patrick Minford's show similar results and his has been discredited. Look around you, the knowledge is there for anyone to read providing they take an open view and don't state everything they find uncomfortable is fake news.

We're already seeing a limp economy (worst for five years) which the ONS does not attribute to the weather.
https://news.sky.com/story/uk-econom...arter-11384775

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35948054)

The trouble is some believe what thy media and glorious politicians truthfully tells us Andrew....

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948321)

Farewell "clean, hard" Brexit, hello commonsense!

https://www.ft.com/content/23663bc4-...2-9563a0613e56

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948329)

Except there will be an agreement, as Theresa May has stated throughout.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948329)

Except there will be an agreement, as Theresa May has stated throughout.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35948338)

She also said just over a year ago... That didn't come true, did it?

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35948332)

You believe what you want to but others are not so gullible to believe what many forked tongue politicians spout from the mouths..

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948345)

Nobody on the Remain side believed she would get this far, and frankly the latest scare on the customs union is a big, fat red herring.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35948376)

We either do or do not - if we don't need a border then we are a member of the CU. If not, then we have a border and need a FTD with the EU. We can't be a little pregnant here. We either are, or are not.

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35948338)

That didn't come true, did it?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35947234)

No amount of words from me or you will resolve the Ireland situation. That's why the Government has made the decision it has. Stand by for it to stay in the single market as well.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35947790)

Still waiting for the milk and honey though and the new blue passport from just over the water..;):D

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35947934)

Not even the Governor of the bank of England has the foresight to see in the future and what trade deals we can do once we leave.

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35947718)

Mark Carney has claimed the Brexit vote has left households £900 worse off annually, describing the sum as "a lot of money."

He's just another Euro lover that needs to hide the fact he's pretty useless at his job.

Was it the Brexit vote that has increased oil prices?

Was it the Brexit vote that pushed the local councils into the desperate attempts to 'save' £millions every year on their budgets?

Was it the Brexit vote that has decimated the high streets, or caused the ongoing closures of many named companies?

Was it the Brexit vote that has held interest rates at low levels for years?

Was it the Brexit vote that encouraged the shenanigans of the bankers/traders - something we're still paying for?

Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35947719)

Mark Carney's predictions are as reliable as a 3 month ahead weather forecast. He has been consitently wrong post Brexit and continues in vein.

The reduction in growth to near zero in the first quarter of this year was dominated by a fall in the construction sector of ~6%, mainly due to the appaling weather and precious little to do with Brexit.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35947731)

Carney the Blarney at it again ;)

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35947747)

Ah bless MrK found himself something to cheer him up hopefully he'll quit while he's ahead and go enjoy a drink in his garden. Carney is about as reliable as a north korean takeaway the guy has a lousy track record and hopefully when he goes we will get somebody a lot better. Even if it were true it's a price many of us are willing to pay to get out of the EU hell double and triple it still a bargain to be out of the EU and not long now till we are out.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35948421)

Did anyone seriously think atht she was going to win that election?

2800 posts into this thread I might have a lot of reading to do to figure out if anyone thought that it was going to go otherwise but this was my on prediction before the GE:

http://www.elite-politics.com/showth...ll=1#post15313

After the election I thought that she should resign but lately all I have wanted is for her to stick around - as long as possible. To every detractor of hers (I consider myself one, I loathe the woman) just remember that you will never ever be able to humiliate another PM the way you can to May.

This is the text of my prediction (the night before the GE last year):



I can't possible imagine that anyone predicted that May would win a majority - the fact that she did makes it all the more amusing to keep her as PM. What a dreadful candidate.

---------- Post added at 02:00 ---------- Previous post was at 01:50 ----------



This is about the most awesome place to be - watching May squirm. She leaves the CU and there is a hard border with Ireland then Ireland will vote no among the 27 member states of the EU left, when it comes to a trade deal. The DUP will veto the deal, in the house too. May decides to stick with the CU and JRM and the ERG will all write letters to Brady, time for a leadership contest. She is screwed whichever option she tries and Brussels will veto anything but a membership of the CU ; let's not rush this, there are months ahead of agony for May.

To every single opponent of May, please remember that you will never get the chance to humiliate another PM the way May has to go begging to every side...enjoy it for now, savor it. North lost America, Chamberlain gave away parts of the Eastern bloc to Hitler, Cameron lost Europe altogether and it'll be a miracle if May doesn't lose Ireland or the pound - I can't see her keeping both. In fact, given the new terms that Britain will have to agree to when it eventually rejoins the EU, not only will the currency be gone but contributions to the EU will have to start so we will have to pay 40 billion in leaving first time round, for nothing.

---------- Post added at 02:34 ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 ----------



Lol...mind you Boris needs to tweak his line about cake. Not "you can have your cake and eat it" but "you can have your diabetic and eat her too...once you empanel her as PM".

---------- Post added at 02:37 ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 ----------



He does know one thing though, he knows that if we remain a part of the Customs Union we won't even be able to strike them in the first place. And we almost certainly will be staying in the customs union in one way or another.

---------- Post added at 02:47 ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 ----------









Wow...he is the one in the wrong here?

I can just see it now:

The leave crowd: We're taking back control!

Carney: But we were the only member state to have monetary and currency control not being wed to the Euro

The leave crowd: Yeah but you couldn't be trusted with it so we had to wreck the entire economy some, just to be on the safe side! The economy may suffer but at least we'll never join the single currency!

Carney: How very Gordon Brown of you - but Cameron agreed to that in his negotiations anyway, we would never have to join the single currency! You rejected his re-negotiations anyway!

Years down the line (if we ever get out and want to rejoin):

EU: Now you must sign up to join the Euro

Nationalists: But we were never a part of the Euro to begin with!

Carney: See, now we have no independent monetary policy / currency of our own

Nationalists: Exactly, this is all your fault Mark!

This is like groundhog day....

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948329)

Except there will be an agreement, as Theresa May has stated throughout.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948430)

I take it you are a remainer, then, Chloé! :p:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948442)

I'm not sure such binary categories add much value to the debate.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35948449)

There is no debate we're leaving .

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35948449)

There is no debate we're leaving .

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35948451)

One knows we are leaving as that is pretty crystal clear but there is plenty of debate to be had and if some don.t like it then tough as rational and reasoned debate is not going to disappear as last time l looked we we are still in a debating democracy unless told otherwise.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35948451)

One knows we are leaving as that is pretty crystal clear but there is plenty of debate to be had and if some don.t like it then tough as rational and reasoned debate is not going to disappear as last time l looked we we are still in a debating democracy unless told otherwise.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35948465)

Not when the debating is talk about stopping or thwarting the leave result, or constant chatter about remaining in parts of the EU. The leave vote won. It was either one or the other, not half in, half out.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35948465)

Not when the debating is talk about stopping or thwarting the leave result, or constant chatter about remaining in parts of the EU. The leave vote won. It was either one or the other, not half in, half out.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35948472)

Its a tiny minority who might want to change the Brexit result as the vast majority have accepted it but that does not mean they have to be happy about it nor does it mean they should keep quiet about their concerns as thus so far the Brexit talks have been nothing more then a pig in a poke these last 2 years since the referendum result.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948475)

Spot on Den. I would welcome something more on the Irish border issue that doesn't paraphrase some of "we won, get over it, it will sort itself out by magic let's ignore WTO rules as we're British and used to own 25% of the World"

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948475)

Spot on Den. I would welcome something more on the Irish border issue that doesn't paraphrase some of "we won, get over it, it will sort itself out by magic let's ignore WTO rules as we're British and used to own 25% of the World"

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35948465)

Not when the debating is talk about stopping or thwarting the leave result, or constant chatter about remaining in parts of the EU. The leave vote won. It was either one or the other, not half in, half out.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35948479)

I am afraid that this Empire nostalgia does colour a lot of the Leavers' thinking. I also sense that the hard core Leavers are showing degrees of panic and worry.

Here's an article in the Express, that most rabid of Leaver news sources:

Don’t cut off our supply of farm workers



You have to laugh at the irony of the article but it does show that for even the most blind of the Hope & Faith brigade, reality does intrude now and again.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948430)

I take it you are a remainer, then, Chloé! :p:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35948465)

Not when the debating is talk about stopping or thwarting the leave result, or constant chatter about remaining in parts of the EU. The leave vote won. It was either one or the other, not half in, half out.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948442)

I'm not sure such binary categories add much value to the debate.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35948481)

It's no longer a debate it's just whinging about losing and not accepting the results of democracy .

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948442)

I'm not sure such binary categories add much value to the debate.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35948502)

Yes, but only to the extent that I voted to remain and think that it was a better option to remain. I am not bitter about it (though I disagree with the decision entirely and think it is hilarious that they think that it will fix anything in regards to immigration) and bear no ill will to those voted to leave ; so long as they can respect the rules / order of the EU. If the EU says "no" to some max fac Customs idea then the UK has to accept that. What really pissed me off was some months ago (right at the start of the withdrawal) when Davis said that the "EU needed to be more imaginative..."

He had a total disrespect for where they drew the line, a total lack of respect of their four principles and would whine and bitch whenever the EU returned suit. If M Barnier turned around told him "Brexit means imagination" every time May said she had red lines, Davis would have had red lines on his face to the extent his smiles would have splattered by the blood vessels that burst in her neck.

People want friction-less trade? Stay a member of the CU. Want access to the single market and free movement of capital? You will have to accept free movement of people. Simple as that. Fine, Britain voted to leave. I didn't agree with it but the EU does not have to cowtow to the demands of the British and it is about time that we as a nation learned to accept that.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948484)

What a load of tosh, ianch! I don't know any leavers who prattle on about empire or even how good it used to be. It's all about the nation we want to be - enterprising, making our own laws and trade deals, and free of the shackles of the undemocratic and bureaucratic EU.

As for agricultural workers, I don't see how that needs to be affected by Brexit at all. It will be up to us how many and of what type we allow into this country. Targeted immigration is what we want, not uncontrolled hordes of people who all want a piece of us.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35948508)

We are not the ones whining though - you are the ones saying "no, we're leaving everything but still want the perks". Don't want the perks? Then fine, nobody has any issue here. If you have never asked for access to the SM, friction-less trade + an open Irish border (which will never happen without CU membership) then I apologize. And without that as a request there is no issue.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948512)

The ones whining at the moment are those who voted to leave the EU and are somewhat annoyed that this actually means having to leave the EU! So they think it's unfair that they can't enter to be a future European City of Culture or can't stay in the Galileo programme. They are accompanied in their whingeing by the legally-naive who don't get that if you sign a multi-year contract, you have to honour that contract and pay up what you've signed up to pay!
Everyone else - regardless of how they voted - is looking on wondering how on earth everything is going to play out!

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35948429)

Some very wise words there Chloe especially about Carney, though I think the diabetic comments whilst humourous are unfair.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948505)

But it does, Andrew. The Brexit vote was to leave the EU. To have any meaning at all, this means leaving the Common Market and Customs Union as well (or we can't trade with the rest of the world as we want to do).

The Customs Union has been seized on by the remainers as they see this as confusing the issue and alarming people into thinking that this is a deal breaker and there is no solution. But as Rees Mogg said very eloquently on the Andrew Marr programme last week, the Irish border question (which is being used as a battering ram by remainers to greatly exaggerate the 'problems of leaving the Customs Union') really is not the problem that many people think it is.

Arrangements based on the UK’s proposals for an expanded trusted trader scheme and exemptions for small traders is perfectly adequate to operate a border without infrastructure.

The key point is that modern technology means that physical customs posts, or even cameras, are no longer essential at borders. The use of mobile phone and GPS technology to track HGVs, together with the computer-based customs clearing which is the norm across much of the world is pretty well all that is required. Most of the goods traffic will be by companies with trusted trader status and with a no-tariffs deal, smuggling will not be profitable anyhow.

Although not yet in place, arrangements without physical infrastructure have been successfully trialled on the Norway-Sweden border. The only reason that they have not been adopted for general use on this border is that the existing border arrangements are satisfactory and hence the cost of new electronic systems is not justified.

This is not the serious problem it has been made out to be. It is a political ruse, nothing more, to detract from our determination to achieve a smooth but complete Brexit. Nothing less will satisfy the public, let alone the Brexiteers.

Originally Posted by Chloé Palmas (Post 35948516)

Okay I need to explain this comment. In no way did I mean to make fun of diabetics but shortly before May became PM, Boris apparently struck a deal with her that he would take over in 2019. (I can't remember the exact details but the story was published in the Telegraph).

In post 2731, you wrote:



I should permlink that. The reason that Bojo was indeed aghast is because the public listened, and voted to leave! He never had any plans to fix this mess because 1, he never wanted to leave in the first place and 2, he never thought that the public would buy it.

Think about it this way - when does a politician ever try win votes in this day and age - when campaigning for or against something? It was a lot easier for Boris to say "look at those EU bureaucrats" to go win votes with the British public to go get elected than say "see I won!". Then he would be accredited for the current disastrous state of affairs. Think that the next Tory will go to the voters and say "vote for me for look at the brilliant and magnificent job TM is doing?" Of course not. They will talk about what the pitfalls of a Jeremy Corbyn led administration (propped up by the SNP with John McDonnel as Chancellor and Dianne Abbot as HS) to such an extent that it will do for Cameron what Ed Miliband was in 2015. In my link above I categorically said that the SNP's failure in the North are what allowed May to form a minority government in the first place. The Tories are right not to ram that home though, so they can use Strugeon as a punch bag for the next race! No way (in this day and ago) can someone run on their own merits - you have to constantly belittle and undermine the other side. Ergo, negative attack ads and campaigning work.

Look at what happened with Obama in the US - for so long Republicans felt like they had to carry water for Wall street at the end of 2008 (an unpopular war etc) but when Obama came in my God they found their feet - governing is not so easy but being in opposition all they have to do is talk about their dissatisfaction with the other side. (Like with the Iraq war, the Democrats never had a plan so for all their Bitching about Bush / Cheney / Rumseld they never had a plan of their own). Look at the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt - 80 years in exile / the Wilderness etc. Hosni Mubarrak finally goes and what happens - Morsi comes in and is thrown out and imprisoned within a couple years. Burma / Myanmar. All good and well when you are winning Nobel peace prizes while under home confinement but when you are leader of the country and have to deal with the slaughter of Muslims by the hundreds of thousands, it is not so easy, is it?

(I could go on, but back to that comment I made).

So let's take a look at some of the most prominent voices on the leave side:

Farage...no longer has a job nor purpose, quit UKIP and has to resort to working for LBC.

John Redwood...lost his marriage and still not worthy to lick John Major's boots.

Michael Gove...we all know what happened to him.

(I could go on but this post is getting rather long winded).

Gove and Johnson looked aghast as they realized that they might have to clean up this mess. Think things are going well? May was the perfect woman to put in to take the heat for all this. Because now Boris can say "May is screwing all this up, which is why your life is dreadful"...where as before the vote he could blame it all on the EU.

That is why he had to think fast, and he did by getting the one job in government that spelled out his reality. "Britain will have wonderful times ahead...I am going to show my patriotism to it by going off to warmer and sunnier climes and wow am I going to enjoy it! Go Britain!". Nobody will ever know whether he did what he did intentionally or Gove really did knife him in the back but either way Gove will forever take the blame and Boris doesn't have to deal with any of this - he found his stooge in May to take the blame for all that goes wrong. He can live his life up a bit, in the mean time.

The joke that goes round is that he could have cake but a diabetic could not - so he put the diabetic in as PM so he could have his cake, and eat it - while she suffered so mercilessly. I don't like Boris at all (don't agree with him, his personal behavior is repulsive etc) but on this one issue I am glad that he does what he does to May - she deserves it. She is the most two faced lecherous PM this country has ever had the misfortune of having and she deserves to be tormented the way that she is. It is not fair for other diabetics to be tarred by her, so even whenever I hear the phrase I will try to rebuff it and my apologies to anyone who took offense to my words - they are not my own but just the running gag I hear going around. I thought that it was funny at first but there is no good reason to tar anyone with May - diabetic or not. (Feel for me - I am the same gender as her!!!)

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35948533)

I am not sure Mrs May deserves such hatred. I mean "lecherous", really? If anything, she is guilty of being two-faced: a Remainer one minute and then an ardent Leaver the next. But then, how many politicians are not two-faced? Corbyn, is positively venal! At the first whiff at the prospects of power, he dropped how many decades of staunch anti-EU behaviour and became one of the Remain cheerleaders. Ok, he was pathetic at it which maybe was by design but the bottom line is he is as bad as May.

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35948535)

The rest of the cabinet plus Mr Rees-Frogg, could be called lecherous though. Back stabbing till the last ones is left standing, power is everything, meanwhile the country can go hang. They will all be ok at the end of the day, unlike us.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35948538)

What is fascinating about the Moggster is that Dacre has set the attack dogs on him:

Mogg's Moscow Millions: Brexiteer's firm has poured a fortune into a string of Russian companies with links to the Kremlim but has invested next to nothing in Britain

Not quite sure what is going on here ..

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35948510)

I notice though, Chloé, that you don't mention Barnier's intransigence and inflammatory language, to which Davis was responding.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35948538)

What is fascinating about the Moggster is that Dacre has set the attack dogs on him:

Mogg's Moscow Millions: Brexiteer's firm has poured a fortune into a string of Russian companies with links to the Kremlim but has invested next to nothing in Britain



Not quite sure what is going on here ..

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35948481)

It's no longer a debate it's just whinging about losing and not accepting the results of democracy .

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35948533)

I am not sure Mrs May deserves such hatred. I mean "lecherous", really?