Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Rather than leaving options, considering what's best for the country and giving themselves, on both sides, latitude to monitor the situation and adjust position appropriately. May eliminated a bunch of options unnecessarily to score UKIP votes and then having done nothing to prepare triggered Article 50 according to an arbitrary timescale. McDonnell and the Corbyn posse blagged to try and keep the young, and overwhelmingly favourable to the EU, vote, while simultaneously trying to ward off the nationalist vote the Tories are going after.

Davis and Fox's departments being created have both had the unsurprising impact of sticking functions that should be handled in tandem in silos, and caused extensive overlap with existing departments. We lost a bunch of time trying to ramp the civil service up to properly staff those departments, and it has shown in that it's taken until this month to start producing 'position papers', and those that have been produced are half-arsed and basically come down to, in the short term at least, trying to remain in the EEA under a different name.

It's ended up in that ridiculous situation because politicians couldn't keep their mouths shut in an attempt to win as much support from the 52% as they could, and wasted time on internal party and civil service squabbles, in between urinating away a couple of months on a pointless election.

The EU have made their positions abundantly clear - http://jackofkent.com/brexit-negotia...resource-page/

The UK politicians continue to negotiate with one eye on the Express, Mail and Sun, and most of the other on 2022.

We need to get serious. The EU are being inflexible. We need to make it easier for them to show some flexibility by actually telling them in which direction we want them to bend. For them to break away from the positions set out in the documents will take months of agreement and ratification as, contrary to popular belief, the EU isn't a dictatorship and those documents were agreed by rEU-27 and must be modified by consensus too.

The clock's ticking. If we aren't going to make a serious attempt it's time to stop wasting taxpayers' time and money and stop feeding further uncertainty into the economy, take the hit and jump off the cliff. The current situation is demeaning to the UK and diminishing our reputation for stability, diplomacy and pragmatism even further abroad. A reputation we will be relying on worldwide if we don't either join EFTA or remain in the CU.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I was confused by this as in 2015 Election, UKIP had 3,881,099 total votes. In the snap election in June, they had lost millions taking their final total vote tally to just 594,068.

I read previous analysis that that loss of over 3 million UKIP votes, that Labour were the major beneficiaries, but I now admit after reading the FT article linked below, it seems that the UKIP collapse, that it was the Tories that did.

https://www.ft.com/content/dac3a3b2-...a-1e14ce4af89b

I do remember on Election result night that many of the key seats, saw Labour get a wrath of surprise big swings from UKIP and I naturally assumed they were the big earners that night. As they say, assumptions are the mother of all...

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I agree with your cultural point to a degree. Most of my team are in India, some are in China and the rest in the US. There are some higher level "Project Managers/Solution Architects/Network Engineers/Business Analysts" in India (less so in China) and as you point out, the most are in the US (HQ specifically).

However, the majority of the senior managers, etc. in the US are of Indian and Chinese origin ..

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I think the Ukip voters defecting to the Conservatives explain why Theresa May is taking the position she is taking. A softer approach to Brexit could result in the Conservative vote being threatened in some constituencies in the event of a by-election. And every seat counts as the DUP knows.
But the Government also knows that the current approach could lead to companies leaving the UK, and not just the banks which attract less public sympathy than car workers. That is why the UK Government is working hard behind the scenes to try and keep manufacture of the next Astra in Ellesmere Port. Closure of this factory blamed on Brexit could influence public opinion towards Brexit negatively. It has an impossible job.
Labour needs to take a different approach particularly if it wants to hold onto the younger pro-EU electorate.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I had the same in the UK - Indians/Chinese who,had become acculturated; they had adapted to our methods of working/managing, so rose up the management ladder.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The ultimate solution must involve getting back our sovereignty, taking back control of immigration, no more excessive payments to be wasted by the EU and making our own trade deals.

All this talk of remaining in the common market or customs union is irrelevant if any of these cannot be achieved by so doing, because those were the main points made by the Leave campaigners and are what resonated with the public.

---------- Post added at 09:35 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

Andrew, we cannot have a 'sofr' or 'softer' approach to Brexit if it means we cannot make our own trade deals. We cannot make Brexit work without this.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I prescribe 1 of these to be taken as required:

:banghead:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

there is no cure for the Klingon plague

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The terms "hard" and "soft" Brexit are Orwellian in the truest sense. They condition the debate and make it almost impossible to examine the issue clearly.

There is no such thing as "soft" Brexit. "Soft" as defined by the continuity remain campaign is remaining in the principal structures of the EU whilst relinquishing what direct influence we presently have over those structures. We will have left the EU in name only.

In order to achieve repatriation of parliamentary and judicial sovereignty and freedom to negotiate with the rest of the world on equal terms, we have to get entirely out of the EU, and then consider forming a relationship with the bloc, from outside.

That is the position outlined by HMG and it is one I entirely support.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

'Klingon' to the EU no matter what presumably... :D

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

We never lost our sovereignty and the home office was too busy trying to impress the press with pointless fights with the ECHR to use the control we did have over immigration.

As far as making our own trade deals go, apparently we're going to copy/paste the EU's and as we've taken back control amend them as we see fit.

This is ridiculous, but if taken on face value this woman appears to think it's entirely within the UK's gift to make trade deals with other nations on terms they agreed with the EU then amend them as we see fit.

If this is the best we can do after 14 months we're in some strife.

If I may, the idea that 98% of leave voters voted to leave the EEA seems at odds with polls from before the referendum indicating that 2/3rds of all voters supported EEA membership, this taking in about 25% of eventual leave voters.

However, from the moment Gove and Johnson faced the cameras ashen-faced, and Boris realised his plan to go down in flames and use it to launch his leadership ambitions had gone completely pear-shaped things changed.

On a slight tangent it's actually pretty amusing. You look at the look on Trump's face when it became clear he was going to win and Johnson's face when leave won and you can happily tell they were two men having to do something they really didn't want to.

---------- Post added at 18:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:59 ----------

All this said you mentioned sovereignty. In the UK Parliament in sovereign and have done a number of things in the past that were not favoured by the majority, so it wouldn't be unprecedented.

We'll see what happens, those are old arguments endlessly recycled as an attempt to make the case to remain in the EU and very tiresome.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

You'll have to take the use of "soft" up with Old Boy. I used the term "softer" but for some reason he decided to use the term "soft" in a response to my post.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

:tu:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

How can you get equal terms if the country or trading bloc you are negotiating with is significantly larger than you?

---------- Post added at 20:51 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

It's gone from talks of the third world war to the web wide war.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7920181.html

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Size is hardly an issue when almost every country in the world has a smaller economy than us.

In any case, it isn't the overall size of the economy that's most important, it's the parts of their economy we're well placed to exploit and vice versa to mutual benefit.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Going by the negotiations this week this isn't going well at all.

The EU want cash, the UK want to pay as little as legally possible knowing that future obligations after exit probably aren't legally enforceable as the treaties in question would be extinguished upon exit.

The UK doesn't want to pay a penny for anything after exit date, including programmes we've committed to fund while in the EU such as research, 3rd country development, etc. There is probably no legal means for the EU to compel payment.

The UK seems to fundamentally misunderstand the Single Market. Somewhat bizarre given two Conservative politicians, Thatcher and Lord Cockfield, are architects of it.

The UK, having accepted sequential talks, now wants future relationship and current settlement talks simultaneously.

The EU will not move from the negotiating platform it set down earlier. Perhaps more to the point it cannot without approval from the Council of Ministers and the European Parliament.

I doubt we'll crash out early, we'll likely drag it all out for as long as possible to give business more time to prepare, but as of right now the differences seem intractable and it's incredibly unlikely that the UK will have any transition or exit deal in place, we will move to WTO MFN status which carries many issues and challenges with regards to replicating many basic arrangements we have in place now, before even contemplating trade deals.

Hey ho.

---------- Post added at 15:45 ---------- Previous post was at 15:33 ----------

This may well be accurate.

For all the rhetoric it's the cold hard truth and the numbers don't lie. In case of a disorganised exit they hurt, we hurt more. I'm fairly sure a certain Mr Varoufakis wasn't held in especially high regard in places, and isn't in Greece which perhaps explains why he's always on tour.

That said I've not a clue where else things can go. Months ago Donald Tusk was quite open about it and they haven't budged since. We've 3 options by the looks:

1) Forget Brexit (politically unworkable).
2) Join EEA/EFTA (probably politically unworkable).
3) WTO MFN status, no exit agreement (economically horrendous).

Hope there's some secret sauce my Brexit watching has missed. Even at my most 'Brexity' I was very clear I wanted the UK in the EEA and EFTA and to that I still hold, but politics has changed and left boring centrist types like me behind.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Ah but there's the rub. For the die-hard Brexiteers, this isn't the truth and, yes, the numbers do lie.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

well i'm glad you cleared that up ;)

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

People can believe what they want to but mathematics of this basic kind is pretty resilient to opinions.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-eu-trade/

As an added kicker a bunch of those UK exports rely on producing finished goods from materials supplied via the EU.

A trade deficit or otherwise is a hugely over-simplistic assessment of the situation and is, quite simply, misleading. Something that does significant harm to our goods trading relationship with the European Union will have a considerable effect on domestic consumption.

As the terms of negotiations and the current points stand there is no way an agreement is possible.

The big reaasons for this are May's entirely unnecessary speech at the Tory Party conference drawing up a bunch of red lines to appease the UKIPpers and entirely robbing her of flexibility and how the EU negotiates: a slow, consensus based process.

The Conservative actions at and around their conference were a massive mistake.

To be honest, if the plan is to crash out with no deal, blame the EU and try and win an election on the bulldog spirit of resisting those who wanted to pick on the UK what's going on fits that pattern almost perfectly. I'm going to go with incompetence and someone eating a law book to provide legal basis for why the UK shouldn't pay any obligations agreed during EU membership after it.

This is not legally unsound. There is simply no body that can force the UK to pay the commitments it agreed as part of the EU once we've left and that's the point the UK have been making, the payment demands are not enforceable. It is, however, perhaps morally unsound and gives a moment of pause to any nation we're looking for a trade deal from. Why deal with a country that refuses to pay its commitments because there's no viable legal way of compelling them to do so? Requires a high level of supervision of such an agreement. Something that in the current bizarre context would be seen as a violation of sovereignty, having a 3rd party group that can tell us what to do.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

:tu:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Your excellent assessment assume one thing and that is that the Leavers will act honourably.

The attitude of the more hardcore Leavers is that the EU is a corrupt, evil and undemocratic institution and as much, does not merit an honourable deal. If the UK does attempt to renege on its debts, it does have history :)

Perfidious Albion

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

great post :tu:

---------- Post added at 22:51 ---------- Previous post was at 22:50 ----------

Sounds familiar in these parts :erm:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The UK will honour its commitments but the EU must first quantify them and then come to an arrangement with the UK. This is uncharted territory and the EU cannot expect the UK to just accept the first number they come up with and more than they'd accept ours without question.

I'd wager the UK has a better record of observing EU rules and fulfilling its obligations than many a member of the club.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Perhaps we should ask for the last twenty years worth of audited accounts. Oh wait a minute....

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Why do so many Remainers want Britain to fail? asks TIM NEWARK

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/exp...ail-Tim-Newark

The real problem is that too much negative reporting on our negotiating position from the liberal media could have a detrimental influence on business confidence by exacerbating fears about our ability to strike a free trade deal.

Make no mistake, this is not some abstract issue of interest only to economists, it would mean real people choosing to invest less money in our economy.

"If investment falters, Bank of England Governor Mark Carney has proved already that he is only too keen to keep interest rates at a historic low.

But as well as encouraging spending this in turn keeps sterling down and leads to higher inflation.

Such are the dangers that could undermine a successful Brexit.

The enemy is not Michel Barnier – who is doing exactly the job required of him – but the Remoaners in our country seeking to undermine the democratic will of the nation to satisfy their own elitist beliefs."

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

This is very true. It's about time certain large sections of the media stopped undermining our own case, accepted the result of the referendum and spent more of their time helping to secure a mutually agreeable outcome instead of trying to derail the entire process. Dream on though if anyone thinks that's going to happen any time soon. Blair and many others like him are busily doing what they can to ensure the UK remains tied to the EU and if they get their way there'll never be another opportunity to leave you can be sure. New treaties and rules will follow by hook or by crook and the UK will find itself trapped. The EU has made it clear it wants to make the UK pay handsomely for having the temerity to leave and if we don't do it now it'll never happen and those who pay lip service to democracy will have been richly rewarded. Just look at Labour's stance on the EU now in comparison to what they went into the general election promising. It's not just Labour either, there are people in all parties who will do what they can to overturn the referendum result. Make no mistake, if we do not get out of this flawed club we're soon going to discover all the skeletons in the EU closet (which the likes of the BBC do their best to ignore or understate) to our permanent cost and we'll be able to do precious little about it.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The media and public are generally inclined to be critical of the government, that isn't going to change with Brexit.

The referendum was close and the country is divided on the topic. As soon as it was clear the result was going to be close either way it was also clear that either result would lead to such division afterwards.

Also there has been little of sign of a mutually agreeable outcome. As soon as May came into No 10 it was going to be a Brexit for the 52% from the talk of citizens of nowhere to the fact we're pulling out of even agreements no-one objected to, such as nuclear cooperation, if they have even a hint of European involvement. The 52% won so that's their right but they can't really demand everyone shuts up about it. Even some Brexit supporters have expressed their unhappiness at this regressive approach and accused May of taking a Remainers idea of what Leavers wanted as a basis for Brexit rather than what they actually wanted.

You've got a contentious issue that was decided by a close vote and one that will dramatically change this country. What happens next was always going to be up for debate.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Of course there's been little sign so far - the stakes are high, this is uncharted territory and neither side wants to be put at a disadvantage. This is to be expected, it's not a cheap game of poker and no matter what the media clamour is, it will take time to come to an agreement. One thing we do know is, however, that the EU is trying to lay down all the rules and has consistently refused to compromise. There's only so long people can go on blaming the UK entirely for the situation. It's the EU, by its own admission, which is trying to make a political point to other member states not the UK. It'd be nice to see that fact acknowledged by the likes of the BBC just occasionally because that in large part is what is slowing the process down.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Maybe the media should just report the news whether it's good or bad for the Country or Government. To do anything else, wouldn't be doing their job.

So far, we seem to have got nothing out of the EU, and the negotiations are less than cordial. What a surprise ! They are united and we are divided. If anybody thinks we'll end end better off at the end of all this, they are kidding themselves. It's the biggest amount of self-harm a country has ever done itself.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The enemy is not Michel Barnier – who is doing exactly the job required of him – but the Remoaners in our country seeking to undermine the democratic will of the nation to satisfy their own elitist beliefs."

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

That's obviously rubbish though. People expressing an opinion against the majority is itself a healthy sign of democracy. As I said in another thread about another topic you can't keep labelling people who disagree with you as enemies/traitors against the country.

Besides taking any lectures from the Express about national pride is a bit rich considering the only thing they seem to think was good about the country died twenty years ago in a car crash.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Oh they can and they will and it'll come as a big shock after handing out such abuse that near enough half the country don't offer any sort of support when they don't get the deal they were expecting

It's a bit rich full stop, why anyone takes any notice of newspapers is beyond me, their influence far outweighs the sum of the readership which to be frank is in terminal decline and falling year on year as their readers literally die of, next to nobody reads these rags anymore, they're dinosaurs from a bygone age

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The Express is irrelevant. Expressing an opinion is one thing and doing whatever they can to derail a democratically agreed process is another. If the vote had gone the other way by the same margin I reckon those who're trying to halt Brexit now wouldn't be quite so keen on accepting the other side's viewpoint. Nope, they'd be telling us all 'we won, suck it up because we're staying in the EU' or words to the effect.

We all have our opinions but the one indisputable fact is that the referendum vote was to leave not to stay half in, half out or any other variant that involves the UK being subservient to the EU without any choice in the matter.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Well yeah but equally people would be pushing for a second referendum. As I said it was obvious the direction this would go when the vote looked to be close, which ever side it fell on.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Indeed, as Nigel Farage said before the vote , if it's 52-48 in favour of remaining that would be unfinished business.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The same doom and gloom as usual I see. :rolleyes:

The self-harm was joining in the first place.

The EU is a failing, peremptory and imperious project, totally unbalanced economically, doomed to fail eventually.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Not any sign of the EU failing, despite Brexiters wet dreams. The Eurozone is booming and the UK economy is flatlining. You'll get less than a euro for a pound at the airports now.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...70811.html?amp

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The EU and Eurozone still have many problems but it's not quite as bad as a few years ago. There was a time when it looked as if there would be a domino effect across Southern Europe which would cause each country to drop out of the Eurozone in turn - that's less likely now.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Trust you to paint a gloomier picture of UK economic affairs. The British economy actually advanced 0.3 percent on quarter in the three months to June 2017, I would not call that flat!

Not any sign of EU failing?

Now you are taking the piss. We have not left bloc yet, 2nd biggest contributor, the other 9 net contributors refusing to give extra, to compensate for U.K exit. Poland's tensions escalating further with EU.....Yeah everything must be a bed of roses in the EU, looking through those tinted glasses.... :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Seems the EU is only interested in Money they don't appear to care if the UK leaves or not as long as they have money.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I beg to differ. None of the major long term problems have been solved, the can has just been kicked down the road in typical EU fashion. In the UK we've had more pressing things to occupy ourselves with in the last year or two but when the spotlight falls on the EU again their problems will be all too evident.

---------- Post added at 14:45 ---------- Previous post was at 14:42 ----------

:D Yes it's the same when they look at Corbyn's cronies through them too.

---------- Post added at 14:47 ---------- Previous post was at 14:45 ----------

They'd like to have both of course. They're committed to being as difficult as possible in order to dissuade other nations from trying to leave their club. How about that for respect for democracy eh? The scared witless that their grand project will fail and they'll try to trample over anyone who gets in their way. Frankly I'd far rather not be part of that sort of 'union'.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

It's nice to know that Barnier wants to 'educate' the British.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

I wonder how he (and the usual suspects here) would have responded had Davis dared to use the same terminology when referring to the EU. Nasty, out of touch, racist, arrogant little Enlander perhaps?? The indignance would be huge and echoed scathingly throughout large sections of our media who refuse to accept the referendum result. It's the usual insults for anything and anyone who dares to disagree with the grand EU plan and bizarrely there are those amongst us who still refuse to see it. It's perfectly clear that these people believe they are right and nothing else matters. They have no respect for alternative views and are more than happy to indulge in insults, blackmail or whatever else it takes in order to further their ambitions. Democracy only matters to these people when it serves up what they want and sadly a whole lot of people around here need to wake up and smell the Euro-coffee.

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:50 ----------

And this is the BBC proving how one sided their view of Brexit is.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41140564

Anyone would think they're being paid by the Eurocrats to broadcast their version of events without being at all concerned about the UK's interests.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I don't think it's much of "Educating" the British people but more of a warning shot to any other country considering leaving.

Bottom line he wants to make an example of us and if he continues on this course May's "No deal is better than a bad deal" may well come to fruition.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

There's clearly a large element of that as I stated elsewhere above If there is no deal at the end of this it'll be down in large part to the EU's intransigence and intention to send a warning message to other club members.

Really, who'd want to be part of a club run like that? A club which will hoover up members with promises of economic support and then do its utmost to stop them ever leaving if they dare to change their minds, even if that means doing economic damage to both sides. The answer to the question is a club which is run by politicians who're fixated entirely on achieving their objective of a single European state with them and their ilk, the Euro elite, at the helm, almost regardless of the cost. People like this really don't like to compromise.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Your quote appears to indicate the writer's opinion is that the press shouldn't be publishing anything critical but should rather feed us propaganda to avoid undermining business confidence.

He then has the temerity to complain about democracy and elitism. If the man actually cared about democracy, rather than only being concerned about it when it suited him, he'd be open to that the UK's position can and may change, and to respect that, not demand that because his side 'won' there must be no dissent.

Most don't want the UK to fail, and I can't see how such rhetoric achieves anything besides division and further resentment. Describing people as 'enemies' because they don't share an opinion is disgusting.

If the Express is serious about wanting the best possible result for the UK, rather than the best possible result for Richard Desmond's tax bill, they could do worse than not publishing things like that.

I'd recommend a read of of the below, instead.

http://jackofkent.com/2017/09/critic...football-team/

---------- Post added at 12:29 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

Things have certainly changed from the pre-referendum days when David Davis claimed our first stop would be Germany to cut a bilateral deal as German industry would lean on their government.

The exact quote is this:

Sadly not as explosive as the idea Barnier wants to teach the UK a lesson.

The sad part for me is you'd have hoped we'd have been taught this during the referendum campaign. It could be said we were, but it was written off as 'Project Fear'.

---------- Post added at 12:37 ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 ----------

Not really. The Conservative Party cutting off most options to play to their party faithful and win votes hasn't exactly helped either. Last year's conference dramatically reduced the UK's ability to negotiation and removed most of our latitude for absolutely no gain to the country, just a hoped-for gain for the Tories.

What the UK is asking for is absurd and impossible for the EU to even consider.

One example of the absurdity of the situation is encapsulated in this - https://twitter.com/MarrShow/status/904268532103315457

Any time pressures right now are largely the result of Article 50's timing being centred around party political reasons rather than pragmatism, then the wasting of a few months on an unnecessary election.

Even the timing of a transition period is being done for political reasons, the hard limit on it being before the next general election is due.

When I have the time I'll provide some examples of why so many of our demands so far are impossible. Those don't even provide a basis for negotiation, they are ridiculous.

---------- Post added at 12:42 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

If we want to trade with the EU freely that's simply not possible.

The EU is bound by the ECJ, so any trade agreement we want must, either directly or indirectly, be 'subservient' to the ECJ from their side.

Funny, there's a court in Luxembourg that fits the bill perfectly, not being subservient to the EU but in partnership.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Does no-one on the Remain side feel, that the language being shown by the likes of Juncker and Guy Verhofstadt, is unhelpful, like Juncker initially saying right after the referendum, 'this is not an amicable divorce' and Verhofstadt, saying only the other day on twitter, 'For years the EU bent over backwards to please Britain. Now you ask for flexibility? ?

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The language on both sides is poor IMO as nothing seems to have been learnt at all..:(

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I am just trying to recall all these years, the EU bent over backwards for us....

When Cameron went to Brussels beginning of last year, pretty sure they did not do any form of bending over backwards, more like the two finger salute, which is probably a catalyst as to why Brexit vote happened.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I don't recall it either but if they have then I'm happy for someone to give some examples. What I recall is decades during which we've paid a hell of a lot more than we've got out.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

a loyal dog will never turn on it's master :)

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Schengen.
Economic and Monetary Union.
The EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.
The rebate on contributions to the budget.
Various aspects of freedom, security and justice legislation.

Those come to mind immediately. Each and every time the UK had an opt-out this was the EU showing flexibility.

EDIT: While I'm thinking about it it might be worth noting that those graphs showing how many times we were outvoted in the EU - on many occasions those votes covered areas the UK had an opt-out from - they didn't actually concern us anyway.

The idea the UK has not benefited economically from EU membership isn't backed up by facts, contrary to whatever the Express might say. An argument could be made that the UK has a lost opportunity cost from not having its on seat on the WTO, however the counter-argument could be made that that hasn't stopped Germany.

If you want a country that pays some serious cash into the EU check out the Netherlands. Our contribution appears large because we're quite populated. Taken on a per-capita basis our net contribution is 9th out of 28 and is more than paid back by benefits in terms of free trade with the EEA.

I think we're at around about £150 per person per year. Norway is at over £100 per head per year and even Switzerland, not a member of the EEA but with bilateral agreements, contributes over £50 per head per year.

Neither of those two receive things like CAP, ERDF or convergence funding, they're members of programs like ERASMUS so do see a small in-flow back but not much, and I'm reasonably sure they measure the benefits of their contributions across their entire economy.



---------- Post added at 21:07 ---------- Previous post was at 21:03 ----------

They showed about as much flexibility as was feasible. The concessions given appeared to be utterly banal, I'm sure I used more colourful language, but just appeared that way. A couple of conversations with EU lawyers indicated they were actually very substantial given the context and there was no room for any more, it would've been basically impossible.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

With the exception to the Schengen Agreement and perhaps the EMU, the others are just EU member benefits, thus, I don't see how this specifically ties in to the EU bending over backwards for us over the years?

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

We had opt-outs in all these areas. We had more opt-outs than any other state.

The UK was provided more flexibility in its membership than anyone else, to the point where it was acknowledged that a 2-speed EU was needed, primarily to accommodate the UK as it was made abundantly clear to the EU that we did not wish for closer union at this time, with little prospect of that changing.

As I said a while ago we should have stayed in EFTA and joined the EEA.

---------- Post added at 23:42 ---------- Previous post was at 23:36 ----------

Here's a cracking piece by Faisal Islam discussing how unpredictable the next 3 months are and the various diplomatic and political battles TM and the government are having to fight simultaneously, this without Parliament aggressively pushing back on anything yet.

http://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-...table-11019976

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Some fascinating stuff from the editor of Leave HQ.

This is a thread from Twitter I'm reformatting.

He followed it up with this. I remind people this guy is really not a 'remoaner' - he voted leave and wants the UK out of the EU.

There is no fundamental objection to leaving the European Union here as long as it's done the right way. What's going on right now isn't even close.

The Icelandic foreign minister just today said that the UK would be welcome in EFTA. It would benefit them and benefit us, we would have immediate trade deals as part of EFTA and be able to negotiate more.

What we're doing right now isn't taking back control or asserting sovereignty, it's talking about copy/pasting European Union trade schedules, trade deals, and allowing ministers with no Parliamentary input to produce thousands of statutory instruments. Given I thought this was about democracy the idea of handing all that to the executive doesn't really appeal!

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

:zzz::zzz::zzz:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Sorry if evidence-based opinion is so dull. Just keep reading the Express and other things that agree with you; wouldn't want to burst your bubble with silly things like reality :)

Cheers for making the point though that you have no comeback to such things. Great to see you so able to debate and defend your own opinions. Very reassuring that your vote last year, one that's quite literally life changing for many, and your desire for a 'clean' Brexit are based on such a solid, factual basis :tu:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

your welcome now stop waking me up :zzz::zzz::zzz:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Nor me.

They've had some concessions 'forced' out of them over the years yes but to claim they've bent over backwards for the UK for decades is patent nonsense.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

For all your Traitors out there, here's how to get behind Brexit:

1) Holiday in Britain
2) Wash your clothes by hand

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/905012492069478402

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

And buy British if there is much you can buy now which is British.:)

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The title is actually how to get behind brexit.

But I am not sure how the caller came to those frank ideas.

1) Can holiday anywhere outside of Britian and Europe and still be behind Brexit/Britain.

2) If we are talking about UK Manufacturing... Washing machines made and designed in UK....to be truly patriotic...you could still wash clothes in a UK made Washing machine....

Probably only ever time I plug a product...but to make a point...

https://www.ebac.com/washing-machines

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

no setting for soft wooly muffins ;)

i always holiday in the UK [on my boat in norfolk ]

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I agree that the idiot who phoned in gives the majority of Leavers a bad name .. but it does illustrate the sort of mindset some people actually do have on this subject.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

*You're.

If you're going to believe in Britain at least get our language right :)

---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 ----------

Insane. :)

You have to wonder when the lunatics got the keys to the asylum. There must be a better way than this?

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:36 ----------

Let's hear it for Global Britain :tu:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Source

FT link for subscribers

Ferrits in a bag comes to mind.:rolleyes:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Being pro-Brexit has nothing to do with not wanting to trade with, visit and have mutually beneficial relationships with other countries. We can do all of those things perfectly well outside of the EU and control our own destiny which is why we voted to leave.

As regards Mr Browne's observations I think he's right. Did anyone seriously believe that behind the scenes there isn't turmoil within the EU and that it won't continue after we leave? Maybe the likes of the unbiased BBC could do a bit more to highlight that fact. None of this is absurd fiction - the EU's entire history has been dogged by disagreement and as the club's grown bigger the disagreements have inevitably increased. The fact that Germany pulls most of the strings now isn't going to be lost on many EU members.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

The chief EU negotiator for Brexit has said that Britain needs to be taught a lesson about the cost of leaving the EU:

https://mobile.twitter.com/bbcnickro...uid=3004087394

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Except he didn't say that.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...postcount=2742



---------- Post added at 17:43 ---------- Previous post was at 17:39 ----------

I don't think you can really give any explanation why everyone who voted one way or the other did so and it's really silly when anyone tries to claim people voted to leave or remain for any set of reasons.

The polls conducted after the vote disagree with you, but could easily be wrong and, regardless, Parliament was always sovereign.

---------- Post added at 17:46 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

Not a surprise at all, is it? Given our own cabinet can't agree on what kind of Brexit they want I can't even begin to imagine what 27 different governments are coming up with.

There's a really good reason why they drew up and agreed negotiating guidelines within the Council - to avoid the process being sidetracked by such arguments.

Tad late for them to fight one another - they agreed Barnier's negotiating positions months ago and need unanimity to change them.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Nick Robinson is showing hand as someone who is desperate to be "noticed" as a political operator. Pity he choose fake news to to this with.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Will be interesting to see the repercussions of this leak.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-eu-immigrants

Meanwhile, the media hits back at Lord Adonis's criticisms of the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation. He was right but it's risky to criticise one individual.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3627146.html

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Good, I was really starting to wonder what the point of leaving actually was, nothing seemed like it was going to change, no one was going back, they could still come here, we'd still be part of the trading block blah blah so I'm glad that something is going to make all this worthwhile ish

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

​Source

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Kudos to Frank Field and other principled Labour MPs, respecting the democratic decision that was taken.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

A big repercussion being that the Home Office apparently drafted this and the Home Secretary was unaware. Theresa May can't help herself with her control freakery. An incompetent Home Secretary that doesn't seem to learn from her many mistakes.

The Times story made me smile in an ironic way.

We can do this right now - Germany, for instance, already do.

---------- Post added at 11:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 ----------

There are many ways to 'respect the democratic decision'. Whether handing this level of power to ministers is the right way is debatable.

For a small 'l' liberal the bill as it stands is alarming. It's an unprecedented transfer of power from Parliament to the executive. I don't trust Theresa May and her cabinet of errors to exercise such powers with basically zero oversight. She is provably incompetent and repeatedly reminds us such.

Whether it passes or not the UK leaves the EU. Opposing it is not an attempt to reverse the referendum result.

---------- Post added at 11:46 ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 ----------

Actually David Allen Green puts it way better than I could.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DI94lveXUAA8ts8.jpg

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Yup, he's one of a few Labour MP's I actually respect and have done for many years.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Perhaps they will follow Jeremy Corbyn's example, of voting against the Party Whip (he did 617 times...).

http://revolts.co.uk/?p=932

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

wouldn't that be a kick in the bolshevik's ;)

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I note that the Repeal Bill is so wide in its scope that a Minister could use the powers granted by the Bill to modify the Bill.

This section really seem a good idea? Section 2 means the restrictions in sections 3 and 4 may be removed, section 1 ensures this is at the sole discretion of the Government.

I'm sure there'll be some junk amendment attempts that should be thrown away but this needs work. It's an affront to democracy, not respecting it, to sideline Parliament entirely in this manner.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/09/1.jpg

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

It's ironic that if the Labour party had employed Momentum's tactics towards dissenters back then, Corbyn would have been long gone years ago. He's a class 1, grade A hypocrite.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Seems you are not alone:

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/c...-a3628376.html


What I find sad but unsurprising is that the Leave campaign went on and on about "taking back control" and Parliamentary sovereignty and yet when this flawed Bill is put forward they are quiet.

Maybe they hate the EU so much they are prepared to accommodate Leaving at any cost

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I think it's because the whole leave process is so rushed. The Government should have published its position papers then invoked Article 50. As it is, it invoked Article 50 for a year, faffed around with an election and then started to worry when the egg timer began to run out of salt, knowing that no deal was worse than even a deal negotiated when time was not on its side. You couldn't make it up but that's what our negotiators are having to do in the absence of a full set of positioning papers.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 19:58 ----------

Meanwhile, this looks like the kind of crazy idea the Darling Buds of May (Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill) would have dreamt up back in the day. No wonder the business community is not rushing to sign it! It's lifted from the playbook of China or Russia.
http://news.sky.com/story/ftse-100-c...rexit-11023229

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Didn't have long to wait till the repercussions of that leaked document start to hit home!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017...-green-refuse/

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I don't get how anyone claiming that Brexit will bring sovereignty and democracy can support that bill without amendments.

It does something the EU doesn't, it makes Parliament no longer sovereign. Ministers none of the population voted into their roles can amend legal acts with no Parliamentary scrutiny, debate or vote.

If you support the bill as it stands you don't support Parliamentary sovereignty or Parliamentary democracy. It's agreed something along those lines is needed, but most definitely not what's proposed.

If, as we keep hearing, the people voted for democracy and Parliamentary sovereignty respecting their votes is rejecting executive power grab and ensuring Ministers have the bare minimum they need, that they will be heavily scrutinised and that the final say on the end product is taken by Parliament, if not the people, though it should probably be Parliament. We are a representative Parliamentary democracy, not a direct or delegation one after all.

In its current form the Government could make a complete and utter cock up of Brexit. They could either leave us the EU's bitch, paying huge amounts into the budget forever, or they could leave us unable to fly planes due to no Open Skies agreement with no access to nuclear materials due to not replacing Euratom and massive queues at borders for freight, crippling JiT split chains. We could do nothing over this. Our MPs would get no vote and no opportunity for debate.

Whatever side of the wider debate you are on I can't see how this can be supported without beign obsessed with leaving the EU at any cost - even your and your elected representative's ability to scrutinise and vote on the end result.

You like this bill there's got to be something higher up your priority list than either sovereignty or democracy. This curls a great big one out all over both of them.

Incidentally when the PM claimed the Lords were in favour she lied. They are absolutely not in favour of what she has put forward, just the concept that some use of Prerogative powers is needed, not their use subject to vague and worthless restrictions, as Ministers get to interpret the restrictions and can remove them at their discretion.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

i wish the remoans would bring out a new record something no so repetitive would be nice .:blah:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

At the moment there is so much that can't be done by the UK parliament because the EU has grabbed control. The complexity of it all, just shows how much control the EU has. The priority to change all legislation that is controlled by the EU to be brought under sole UK control instead. No major initial amendments are going to be made. Any further amendments can come later and be set by the UK parliament in the normal way of things.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

For example?

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Let's put it this way, if there is little the EU has control over, there is little to be done.

And how have those 12,000 EU regulations come about?
Not by the UK Parliament. So any whines about the lack of democratic process with Brexit are total nonsense.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

So you say: "At the moment there is so much that can't be done by the UK parliament because the EU has grabbed control"

I say "For example"

You say that there are a number of EU regulations etc. But where have they "grabbed control". Or to be specific, please could you detail me any single one of them where the EU have "grabbed control" over us.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

12,000 EU regulations imposed without the involvement of the UK Parliament. That is not trivial.

It is totally irrelevant what they are and even if 100% of the UK population agrees with something. The point is that if 100% of the UK population disagreed with something, then nothing could be done.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Of course certain of our own governments have effectively ceded powers to the EU in the past. Whilst those powers can't be said to have been 'grabbed' by anyone, they're no longer within parliament's sole control, the effect on the UK's sovereignty is exactly the same and that is what led to the referendum result. We were asked whether we wanted to stay or leave the EU and gave our answer. Blair signed the Treaty of Rome having promised that there'd be a referendum on it but reneged on that promise. So no the EU didn't grab those powers from the UK, they were effectively donated by a PM whose love of the EU is very well known and who is still today trying to undermine the referendum result. Yet another politician who only respects democracy when it yields the required outcome. Quelle surprise.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Currently the EU can impose new rules WITHOUT the involvement of the national parliaments. That is one of the distinctions between EU regulations and directives.

Recent news story.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

I notice the way you constantly reply to well articulated and informative posts with dismissive empty ridicule. Why bother :td:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

thanks it's nice to be noticed :tu:

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Most of those relate to things like environmental policies, harmonisation of standards, operation of shared regulatory bodies, etc, and make for a functional internal market. Without a number of things being harmonised the internal / single market can't work, and without other things being in place the four freedoms couldn't work.

The EU can't produce regulations on anything member states haven't agreed to delegate competency on. A number of regulations don't apply to the UK as we have opt-outs in those areas.

Those that are imposed were done so with the agreement of the UK Parliament when it agreed to delegate the competency and again when it didn't legislate to reverse them; many would've had the agreement of the UK's representative in the Council of Ministers, the UK's Commissioner would've been involved with the creation of the regulation and the UK's MEPs would've voted on it.

The UK was never under any obligation to obey them and could always have rejected them. It would've carried consequences but Parliament was always able to pass Acts to overrule anything from the EU.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/w...s.html?mcubz=3

Shall we leave the UN? It's impinging on our sovereignty?

The WTO might rule against us and will definitely forbid us from enacting certain policies. We will trade according to their rules not our own, again impinging on our sovereignty.

Any bilateral trade agreement of any depth will require binding dispute resolution mechanisms that will overrule Parliament.

The UK's representatives at least had votes, if not veto power, over many regulations. The Repeal Bill as it stands leaves no scrutiny at any level outside of the executive, no votes at any level for implementation.

Flipping it the other way around if people were upset with directives being able to bypass Parliament and wanted their sovereignty back it seems strange they'd be fine with a Minister being able to bypass Parliament not just on anything the EU did but anything they, at their sole discretion, feel is necessary for Brexit.

From my POV this feels more like HMG saying: 'You thought the EU was anti-democratic watch this!'.

It's simply not necessary for it to be done in this form. There are 18 months to get this done, there's absolutely no need for such a rush, it should be done properly to ensure we don't spend years afterwards fixing mistakes.

---------- Post added at 11:02 ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 ----------

His vote is worth the same as yours. Isn't democracy great? ;)

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Yep we all know Brexit is happening but personally l welcome Ignitionnet well thought out articulated posts as nowt much of that seems to be coming from our elected politicians currently or from some on here.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Well, you notice when you step in something, but it's not nice...

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Have to get my thoughts in before speaking out against HMG's strategy for Brexit is criminalised.

Only half-joking.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 ----------

Game over for people like me, and pre-referendum Dan Hannan and others, as EEA/EFTA membership is ruled out.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/david-...-brexit-2017-9

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Never realised Tony Blair was about in 1957. Learn something new everyday.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

He wasn't as I'm sure you know. ;)

It was the Lisbon treaty I was referring to. Blair signed the UK up to the new European Constitution which then culminated in the Lisbon Treaty actually signed by Brown after Blair's resignation. The end result, so far as the UK's sovereignty is concerned, was the same and it's hardly surprising that having been deprived of one promised referendum then, those of us who want to leave the EU might be just a bit sensitive about the same politicians trying to undo the vote we were finally allowed to have.

Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 

Was it a different Blair then ;)