Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35971171)

As we approach the end of March and the cliff edge then we will withdraw Article 50.

If Brexit was going to happen it needed a larger mandate than 52-48. The funding controversies, fake news and xenophobia aside the 52 can’t actually agree what they want.

There also needed to be a second referendum to give the Government a mandate to go forward and pursue a type of Brexit (Norway, Canada, Switzerland, other). However, we know the problem with that is Remain would win unless it was kept off the ballot.

Ideally the UK also needed a decisive general election (regardless of who won). Neither party is unified to the extent they can rely on all of their MPs to vote one way. In the example of the Conservatives they probably need 400+ MPs to not be subject to the extreme wings of the party.

The EU27 obviously aren’t unified but they at least put up a single negotiator and have all stayed relatively silent throughout the process. We have live streaming our disagreements making it clear to the EU the people sitting in front of them are in a weakened situation.

May could easily be toppled from within, Labour could win an election and Leave would almost certainly lose if the question was put to the people again. At the same time they know, and we know, that No Deal isn’t a realistic option.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35973206)

Indeed, legitimately, that the deal on the table furthers the cause of Irish reunification and perhaps even Scottish independence. I don't see what is patriotic about the death of our great nation.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35973209)

I have touched on this in the past i.e. the English-driven Brexit risks the break up of the Union as NI, Scotland and Wales benefited more from being part of the EU and (apart from Wales) wanted to significantly Remain.

The Welsh vote was odd as South Wales especially has had a lot of EU money and I think Wales received more, as a nation, that it put in.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35973211)

Wales is now backing remain.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35973209)

I have touched on this in the past i.e. the English-driven Brexit risks the break up of the Union as NI, Scotland and Wales benefited more from being part of the EU and (apart from Wales) wanted to significantly Remain.

The Welsh vote was odd as South Wales especially has had a lot of EU money and I think Wales received more, as a nation, that it put in.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35973193)

That’s your entire approach to Brexit

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35973214)

No, That’s my entire approach to you.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35973215)

As I've said all along. you've been playing the man, not the ball. You can't hold a coherent argument in favour of leaving the European Union so have made it entirely personal as I'm the voice of the uncomfortable truth you are struggling to come to terms with.

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35973216)

you know they lost argument soon as the insults name calling starts

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35973217)

It's all quite sad really. There's no compelling argument to leave that holds up to any economic scrutiny. Which is why the focus is on democracy. Yet, it's accepted that people can't be trusted to make the day to day decisions of government which is why we are a representative democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35973218)

So, let me get this straight. Are you seriously suggesting that democracy should be abandoned because you don’t agree with it?

Shame on you! The people voted for Brexit. Swallow that.

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 35973217)

It's all quite sad really. There's no compelling argument to leave that holds up to any economic scrutiny. Which is why the focus is on democracy. Yet, it's accepted that people can't be trusted to make the day to day decisions of government which is why we are a representative democracy, and Parliament is sovereign.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35973220)

And parliament overwhelmingly decided to let the people decide on leaving or remaining in EU. The people decided to leave the EU and that is what should happen, as per democracy!!!

And yes, you’re right the pathetic Remainer forcasts from BoE and Treasury, don’t pass any kind of valid scrutiny. It’s just pure fiction.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35973218)

So, let me get this straight. Are you seriously suggesting that democracy should be abandoned because you don’t agree with it?

Shame on you! The people voted for Brexit. Swallow that.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35973225)

But you know that is not what he is saying don't you? The problem you have is that the 2016 vote based is on uninformed consent. The other problem is that this is not a GE where if you change your mind, you vote the idiots out in 5 years or less.

The vote was one of huge structural, social and economic significance and as such the population *must* be involved now the options are clear and present. It is quite sinister that a democracy should not allow it's population to be involved at this stage.

What is even more sinister is the relish that some express for a No Deal. The proposition that the 37% should drag the whole country down to fulfil their (to me) misplaced wishes is so wrong. This is my country, the one I and my children live in and if it is is going to be trashed, there should be a better mandate that the one currently in place.

Your indignation regarding the prospect of a second referendum is not one based on an affront to democracy. Rather it is anger: you got what you wanted after so many years and now you fear it will taken away from you.