Re: Brexit discussion
 

Oh look, who'd have thought, Guido Fawkes trying to discredit something because he doesn't like what it says.

Perhaps rather than trying to discredit the messenger because you don't like the message it'd be wiser to actually consider the message on its own merits.

I'm sure there are flaws with the OECD's report and look forward to forum members showing them to the rest of us.

Regarding OECD funding the EU paid the OECD for bodies of work, it's not brown envelopes in some alleyway it's on public record, and the bulk of the OECD's funding is actually from the United States.

http://www.oecd.org/about/budget/mem...tributions.htm

http://www.oecd.org/about/membersandpartners/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If you have a pathological hatred of something then facts are the last thing you would offer.

There does seem to be a pattern here: when evidence is put forward on why this whole project is flawed and that the Turkey's have indeed voted for Christmas, the response is one of the following:

- Faith and Hope, my friend, Faith and Hope
- Stop telling me what I do not want to hear
- a cartoon-like, one dimensional portrayal of something that is complex and nuanced

If leaving the EU with no plan and no preparation led by a team of infighting incompetents is not going to make us poorer, please give us the evidence?

Oh, did I add that voting Leave will now, due to the Tory incompetence, directly lead to a Corbyn Government? Enjoy :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You live in a dream world if you think the EU isn't lurking in the shadows behind closed doors, doing back hand deals with companies to distupt the UK-EU partnership.

If anything that has come out of this and something I agree with a remainer is that we can't go back into the EU with the same privileges we had before. It's almost like this is what they wanted us to do. be a 3rd rate country as part of the 28 member nation if we go back.

We need to press on and move on from them it's only going to get worse and if anything Brexit has shown how bad the EU actually is.

You tell me when all we see in the papers is Germany and France at the top of the table when it comes how how laws and decisions are made? I've no doubt the other nations get a vote it's pretty hard to say Yes/No to the 2 Mafia bosses sat at the end of the table.

The 2 that decide how trade and a matter of all other things work within the EU they can make it easy or hard for those said countries if things don't go the way they want.

We have shown by pulling out how bad it can actually be to the others.

Call me what you want a person with no knowledge of the EU but I've seen enough to say bye and I don't give a stuff what a pro-remainer thinks.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Its what you call unintended consequences told to me by a man far wiser then l.;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ugh. Okay it is breaktime.

Indeed. Many of them in their own trade areas and a number having other agreements with the European Union.

Perhaps most pertinently none apart from Greenland have ever been members of the EU. Given that, apples and oranges.

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-law-w...influenced-eu/

20 seconds on Google.

Incidentally every law in the UK is a UK law. We transpose EU law into UK law as and when, referencing the directives in question, but Parliament are sovereign and can, at their discretion, refuse to do so.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-35630757

For the difference between directives and regulations as I imagine Nigel Farage wouldn't have mentioned that.

The first paragraph above: it's baseless nonsense peddled by people trying to cause grief that Germany and France have taken over. While the UK has never engaged in the EU as fully as Germany and France our influence has been deep, as would be expected from what was the second largest economy, and we were appreciated as both a counter-weight to Germano-Franco influence and a force for free trade within the EU.

The internal market was driven by the UK. The expansion to the east was driven by the UK.

It makes little sense that you think the UK would do superbly outside of the EU, having to deal with the likes of China and the United States but can be so cucked by Germany and France.

Germany obviously didn't get that memo. Neither evidently did the EU given the various bilateral agreements in addition to free trade agreements they have. The first sentence is nonsense. The EU does not 'approve' every law. If that were the case there would be no disputes that needed to be resolved. Parliament is sovereign.

We're in a trade bloc with a deep integration of economies. We have a common customs area and an internal market that we have agreed to comply with. What do you think that means? You make trade deals you don't get to unilaterally change the terms of them.

Because firstly that's not true, some seem to want to, others don't, and regardless it's irrelevant to the UK as you'd know if you went beyond tabloid reports. The UK cannot be compelled to join a federal state, we would both have a veto over the creation of it in the first place and to join it would trigger a referendum here.

Most of those who wish to remain that I know reference it with disdain.

They're talking about Brexit on Friday.

And yet you are happy to drink in the scaremongering from media, some politicians, and those who have personal gain to be made from the whole process when it's what you want to hear or confirms your own prejudices. Go figure.

---------- Post added at 12:08 ---------- Previous post was at 12:05 ----------

Indeed. You have no interest in hearing anything you don't agree with.

Let's hope in the longer term you're proven right.

---------- Post added at 12:11 ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 ----------

If the Conservatives do carry on making a complete mess up of our exit from the EU and Corbyn and company get a majority and start working their 'magic' it should be interesting to see how strong the bubbles some people seem to live in are. What would it take before they start, even to themselves, thinking that there may be a little regret creeping in?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Facts eh? Well what facts are there? Plenty of opinions and some economic facts the cause of many of which are also a matter of opinion. How about you remainers admitting the facts about where the EU is heading and the massive risks and dangers that poses for the UK? They're perfectly open about it over there you know, Juncker's state of the union address summed it all up and where we'll be heading if we don't leave. I'm sorry but for a lot of already discussed reasons there is only one way forward in the EU and that's far more of a risk than anything else we'll face outside.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The UK retains a veto over much of what could be done. We wouldn't be 'forced' to join the Euro as someone above. The UK is, was, a powerful member too and Junker is not god of the EU, plenty of member states are hostile to the ideas he advocates, so he can mouth off as much as he likes.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If we remain now it'll be with our tail firmly between our legs and our government in cahoots with those who run the EU will ensure the rules are changed and that we can never leave. Juncker has spelt it out quite clearly and after decades of experience at the hands of these people and certain of our own leaders, it's clearly not just one man's hot air. The UK powerful within the EU? Really? We're so powerful that they wouldn't budge an inch prior to the Brexit vote or since. Please tell me what concessions all the power we have has yielded since Thatcher stood up to them? That's how much power we have in the EU. What we've seen over the decades is more and more powers ceded to and grabbed by the EU over that time and they won't rest until they get their way. I really don't understand how anyone can a) fail to see that, b) not be scared witless by the prospect and c) fear life outside of the club to such an extent that they'd accept anything to stay within it.

Anyway in other EU news:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...it-paper-shows

Of course if we get Corbyn's cronies elected into power any time soon they won't need to go through with any of this because Labour have effectively confirmed they'll accept any deal from the EU:

https://order-order.com/2017/10/18/t...ccept-eu-deal/

Terrific!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You don't need the EU in order for our government to screw us over. They can do that anyway. Case in point: their approach to Brexit.

France and Germany have power too. We have the power to block a lot of things but not impose them. The Veto applies to certain areas, big questions like foreign policy and budgets, so any EU army would never get anywhere as long as we were there as we would block it. So the major chances people cite on here were not going to come to a vote as what's the point. Veto would be issued.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If the UK were to try to stop the EU's progression towards its end goal they would find a way to change the rules and yes that could very well be with the assistance of certain our own politicians just like Blair did. Tell me Damien what would you suggest the UK did if that were to happen? No future change of government could undo it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There have been so much anti-EU propaganda that the EU have a website set-up to debunk years of myths:

https://www.economist.com/blogs/grap...daily-chart-15

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/10/13.png

Here's the site:

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/...ths-a-z-index/

Makes interesting reading ..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I would campaign to vote to leave should they do it. I am not going to vote leave based on a hypothetical scenario you've come up with.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Virtually everything's hypothetical right now - it's just which type of hypothetical is the most risky. There's nothing about the EU which shows they're willing to compromise, change direction or anything else. They can't even allow themselves to allow a major European ally to exit their pipe dream without making a stark point to us and other nations about how painful they will make it and trying to undermine the City of London for example. We know this is true and yet you still prefer to trust them and risk being drawn into something we'll never get out of no matter how we vote. At last at a general election where we can vote for change. Since when did the EU accept a vote for significant change on any of their core principles? I'm sorry, I can accept that life outside the EU won't be a bed or roses and does raise concerns but I find the attitude that a bunch of singleminded Eurocrats acting largely at the behest of Germany can be trusted with this nation's interests more than our own parliament bizarre.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You guys do understand that Germany has 8.4% of the voting weight in the European Council right? This is the same as France, Italy and the UK and just above Spain and Poland. If anything, Germany is under represented due to its population size.

Check out the Treaty of Nice to see how much influence Germany has - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting...2014.2F2017.29

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Given they got most of their other forecasts wrong, I would say is a given, oh and that big fat sum they were given by the EU, is another?

You cannot be seriously expecting me to believe something written from people paid from the very people we are trying to leave, surely?

I am pretty sure you mean David Cameron, he definitely mentioned it and I am deliberately including a link to the mirror here, as you know, hardly Tory fans...

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...ld-war-7928607