Re: Brexit discussion
 

Interesting times tomorrow in the customs union v non-customs union debate. (OK, I should get out more, I know! :))

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43969101

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You know, I don't think its going very well.... It might just be that the whole Brexit concept was flawed in the first place. You can't polish a turd. Just saying ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I am wondering if this is a revisiting of a tactic the government has used in the past where they suggest something that causes a right old hoo ha, everyone goes ballistic and then they 'back down' saying they have listened. The 'back down' position would never fly normally but hey, at least it wasn't plan A (see social care reforms, corporate governance, etc.)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The Turd you speak of, is the EU and you’re right it cannot be polished, too corrupt, thank heavens we’re leaving it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You are right, Mick. The EU is going down the pan anyway (:D) with the next financial crisis, due to the complete failure to establish central control over spending and taxation in the Eurozone.

The southern European countries are in no shape to weather another financial storm. It's only a matter of time now.

We are not in the Eurozone, but if we remained in the EU, we would be under enormous pressure to help with the huge bailout that would be necessary to support Greece, Italy and Portugal, and maybe others as well.

We are better out than in - remainers take note. The risk we face is if we stay IN the EU!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I quite agree, much better to have our own home grown corruption.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Plenty of that in our own political system..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yet all countries in Europe, not just the EU have faster GDP growth than the UK apart from Russia - https://tradingeconomics.com/country...ntinent=europe

---------- Post added at 10:29 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

You mention that the EU is corrupt again so I went for a search for evidence that the European Union as an organisation is corrupt. The only evidence I can find is MEPs fiddling their expenses. Is there any other evidence you can link me up with?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Does not mean this makes EU perfect. All Remainers care about is the economic features of the EU, the EU is corrupt, we’re paying in to a corrupt entity, that has ambitions to become a United States of Europe. No thank you, no deal, let’s get out if this “cancer” of an organisation.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It should also be pointed out here that the EU has still not had its accounts signed off! It makes you wonder if they can even add up! Unless it IS corruption, of course!

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Here’s a tip remove the EU rose tinted glasses and you may spot how corrupt it is, I do not have to justify my reasonings to you. To me, the EU is corrupt in how it behaves and dictates and it needs to be extinguished.

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Partially true but not completely true, the accounts are accurate so they can add up but there are errors in payments - https://fullfact.org/europe/did-audi...ign-eu-budget/

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 ----------

You are of course entitled to your opinions, I was just asking for evidence of corruption as I have not really been able to find anything. I am happy to be proved wrong if there is good evidence

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You're not looking hard enough, plenty of evidence exists dating back 40 years, that would be the day we joined the bloc.

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Total rubbish as usual ... when you wear 40+ year old "Empire" glasses to look back at the "good old days", your world view is remarkably different ... and wrong (again)*


* justification for reasoning is redacted

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No I am not wrong. 17.4 Million people tell me so. (I don't need to redact anything, whatever that rubbish about redaction's, you were going on about.)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Just don't like criticism do you? :nono:

If you post in such a childish and pejorative style: "[the EU] needs to be extinguished" then maybe the replies you get need to be in the same style?

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Is that some kind of thinly veiled threat ?

There is nothing childish about saying the EU needs to be extinguished. That is a perfectly legitimate view. I cannot stand the EU, why has that not sunk in yet ? :rolleyes:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I guess the use of the word 'extinguish' may seem to some a little extreme based on the definition I guess you mean in this case;

I for one get the fact you wanted to leave and of course that is what is happening but would it be fair to say, based on what you are saying, that this isn't the end and only the destruction of the EU as an organisation would make you happy?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's all academic, really. We will soon be out of the EU, probably in the nick of time before the whole thing implodes.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Just to remind all, one of the deeper reasons why we should leave the EU:

German hegemony.

I'll explain.

In the 1980s, Germany was becoming uncompetitive because the DM currency was rising in value to the point where they were becoming industrially uncompetitive. A way had to be found of devaluing the DM.

So, they persuaded France to back the forerunner to the Euro - the ECU. The word even sounded French and by 1991 it had morphed into the ERM (Exchange Rate Mechanism) which the UK joined until the interest rate crisis occurred when we withdrew.

The ERM was supposed to operate until all the member countries (now the Eurozone) had brought their borrowing to within a +/- 3% of GDP range.

So, I draw you attention to GREECE & ITALY. No way did Greece & Italy fulfill these entry requirements which is exactly what Germany wanted so that the overall value of the Euro against the basket of pre-Eurozone currencies would offset the high value of the DM. Also weaker currencies in terms of GDP such as Spain & Portugal added to Germany's cup of joy.

When the Euro happened around 1999, German labour & thus industrial costs fell significantly and they became highly productive.

Evidence: The German financial surpluses should be seen against nearly every one else's deficit.

Result: Germany runs the EU with France as its running dog.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...inisters-told/
Telegraph exclusive - register to read article in full

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Interesting question raised on last night's Question Time "is there a difference between a brexiteer and a remainer who thinks that the referendum decision should be upheld".

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Again, ‘might’, ‘may be’, ‘it’s possible’, same pathetic words being used.... they never learn.

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Yes. The Remainer has accepted the result and will take what comes. They know they can change the outcome so no point in going on about it.

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That is a good question! There is a subtle difference between ‘accept’ and ‘agree’. I accept the result of the referendum, it is what it is. Have I had a damascene revelation where, based on what the referendum said, I agree that leaving is a good idea? No, nothing so far has changed my mind.

The big question now is what leaving actually entails, where will we be in 5-10 years time? What will our relationships be with our closest neighbours and the wider world?

My work and personal interests revolve around ease of trade and regulatory issues. The company I work for and our customers are global but the ease of intra EU trade has been a significant advantage in the past. How this will be handled going forward is a big question that still seems to be hanging.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

As regards those Brexiteers and Remainers in the Cabinet arguing over one of two "magical thinking" solutions to the customs union, one Tweeter described it very nicely when they said it is as if the UK cabinet is in an Italian restaurant arguing about whether to order the vindaloo or the jalfrezi. :D

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My fear is that we will end up still being in the EU in all but name and still paying out money to them, yet have no voting rights.

It's the worst of the two options of changing our minds and deciding to stay in or making a clean break.

I used to be all for the EU, but have not been happy with them for a good few years now for many of the reasons already covered. My main gripes are free movement of people, meaning that the countries effectively have no control over their borders and us being expected to bail out other countries who haven't sorted out their finances whilst we have been subject to austerity.

I think that there are good and bad things that would come out of staying in or leaving, but what we are likely to end up with is the worst of both options.

I know that either decision will annoy about 50% of the electorate, but this wouldn't please remainders or brexiteers. As the old saying goes, he who stands in the middle of the road gets mown down.

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That's not going to happen. There is no point leaving the EU in economic terms unless we can forge our own trade deals.

I, too, voted for joining the Common Market back in the day, but the Europeans made a complete hash of it and instead of federalising and democratising it, they have created an unelected bureaucracy which it seems to me could end up being something uncomfortably similar to a Communist state.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

John has 6 apples, Mary has 3 oranges, Alan has 1 pear.
Jim, Peter and Nancy have nothing, so the fruit is shared among all 6

Eventually John, Mary and Alan decide they can't be bothered to work hard in order to end up with the same as those who don't . . so stop picking fruit.

Nobody has anything.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Unelected apart from the European Parliament and European Council. The third arm, the commission is the civil service but it’s leadership is elected by the parliament (elected by us) and the council (heads of state and so elected by us)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

A somewhat naïve view, for what my opinion is worth.

The Brits look like the Europeans but don't think like them; sort of. So their elected MEPs are able to gang up against ours (and a few like minded others).

Not only that, it's no wonder that the MEP majority are all for federal Europe and no nation states. If that happens, their Parliament would trump everyone else's. That's grabbing power and more than likely against the democratic wishes of ordinary folk.

The UK was fortunate enough to have held a referendum at which true democracy took place.

As for the Eurpean Council, that is made up of Prime Ministers/Presidents who want to keep their seat at the top table (Cameron was one of those). Snouts, trough and power concentration come to mind. Not what we want from our politicians.

The EU is a politically corrupt institution.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What I said wasn’t an opinion so I am not sure what was naive about what I posted. MEPs are elected (sort of under the d’Hondt proportional representation system) If the electorate is politically engaged then they have the option to not vote for parties that do not reflect their interests or indeed stand themselves if no one does. That opportunity comes up every 5 years, just like our parliament.

To say the EU is not democratic is not true if the voting population are engaged in the process. If they or we are not, then that’s not the EUs fault surely.

If the results of the election don’t go the way we want, as long as the result is fair, it’s still democratic isn’t it?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I believe that effort and risk should equal reward, but also think that those unable to work for good reason should be helped by those more fortunate in this country. By that I don't see why we should have to bail out other countries who haven't got their affairs in order, whilst we have been subject to austerity measures.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

We played a major role in developing this EU satellite, but if we leave the EU is threatening to stop us using it for GPS, mobile phones, military use etc.

Our Government has said that they'll create their own if this threat is carried out, but it's going to cost us a lot more money if we do.

From a purely financial point of view, this is a downside to leaving:

https://www.politico.eu/article/brex...with-brussels/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This is really academic as us and the rest of the world use the USA GPS at the moment. It was really the EU vanity project and we're leaving it. The existing GPS continues as it always has.

TBQH I'd put more faith in a system run by the US military than a system run by some EU incompetency.

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No, the EU just gives the appearance of a democracy. It's the Eurocrats (the Civil Servants of the EU) that set the agenda.

An MEP cannot take on a local issue and promise legislation unless he/she knows that the Eurocrats are going to bring it forward. Democracy is a cynical illusion. A lot of people fall for it, though.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Whatever your viewpoint, I think this is an informative read. It explains that establishing regulators for a country leaving the EU is a big deal and hard to do/impossible in the timescale of 12 months that Article 50 provides.
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/p...-europes-bluff

To me, the best way of leaving would sort out your plan, get as much inftrastructure in place as you can and then Invoke Article 50 from a stronger position.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It is indeed naïve (or pedantic) to describe the EU as democratic. I have explained why the Parliament is undemocratic and just because they have elections every 5 years doesn't make the result democratic for the voters of Britain. Which is one of the sound reasons that they have rejected the EU.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I'm not sure I get what you mean here. You said that MEPs from other countries gang up on UK MEPs so UK loses in the European Parliament. In some ways, you are right but some of that is due to the Conservative MEPs leaving the influential EPP group and forming the smaller ECR group. The second factor is the rise of UKIP and the EFD group whose 'winning' record is the lowest in the EU Parliament. An interesting analysis of voting records in the EU Parliament is available here - http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/20...an-parliament/ You can see the decline in winning positions from EP6 (2004-2009) and later.

However, being in the 'losing' side doesn't mean things are undemocratic. Should Labour supporters regard the UK Parliament undemocratic? Indeed, should Remain voters call the referendum undemocratic because they didn't get their way?

On the council side, the UK votes on the winning side almost 87% of the time. Here's an blog post part written by the same poerson who did the Parliament analysis, Simon Hix - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/does...-of-ministers/ Again, you can see the decline in the UK winning position post 2009

Re: Brexit discussion
 

We're never going to agree. I'm arguing on a different plane from you.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You mean you have a different opinion. Not the metaphysical is involved in Brexit .. yet :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

plane
pleɪn/
noun
noun: plane; plural noun: planes
1. a flat surface on which a straight line joining any two points on it would wholly lie.
"the horizontal plane"
synonyms: flat surface, level surface;


2. a level of existence, thought, or development.
"everything is connected on the spiritual plane"
synonyms: level, stage, degree, standard, stratum;

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ok, so you are "arguing on a different a level of existence, thought, or development".

Much better ...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Fair enough. I was enjoying the discussion, finding evidence to back up my position and whatnot

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That releases me to observe that nobody took me up in my German hegemony argument.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I wonder what the Metroplitan Police will do with the referral?
https://news.sky.com/story/leaveeu-f...nding-11367242

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not surprising really as it was aimed to just run down the EU and Germany in particular. It disregards the positive contributions made by Germany to Europe in the decades since the war.

The EU, motivated by Germany in particular has been instrumental in negating the nationalistic tendencies that have been responsible for so much loss of life in recent times. It has it's flaws like all pan-national organisations but the net value to the stability of Europe is tangible.

It is sad that the recent populist movements & decisions aim to undo this work and take us to a darker, more self-centred & insular nationalistic future.

Mr Putin is licking his lips ...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Here we go again with the whole "insular" rubbish most brexit voters are looking forward to global trade and global relationships that we set not have set for us so how are we going to become more insular??. Germany has massively benefitted from the EEC\EU for quite a while that's been their main motivation not doing the rest of us a favour. As for peace and security in europe the EU's push eastwood has caused more instability not less and talk of an EU military has only made Russia more nervous so not sure peace and security is a big plus for the EU.

The one common thread with pro EU people seems to be their belief that only the EU can keep the peace which is of course false NATO has been a far bigger peace keeper then the EU. I also have more faith in our european friends that if the EU vanished on saturday we wouldn't be at war on sunday or anytime soon.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The group's founder Aaron Banks has accused this as being "a politically motivated attack on Brexit by the Electoral Commission" (the body that oversees that election law is being correctly followed).

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think we will agree to differ on this subject.

This depressing but unsurprising report from the UN reinforces my point on the direction this country has embarked on:

UK has seen 'Brexit-related' growth in racism, says UN representative

---------- Post added at 22:01 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

Well I guess he would wouldn't he :) I guess we can add the Electoral Commission to the pile of traitors and enemies of democracy.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I do agree that the German economy is a strong one but then so is ours (for the time being). Their role in the EU is not a sinister one, certainly not a feudal super-state exploiting the remaining members. Their strength provides them the ability to contribute more. Without their contributions, parts of Europe would not be as well off as they otherwise would have been.

BTW, this thread is a discussion on Brexit in all its aspects including the more sinister reasons some Leavers voted for.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Racism has been increasing since new labours grand social experiment of letting million's into the country without increasing infrastructure to accomadate them and certainly isn't exclusive to brexit although brexit gets blamed for everything now good job it let's off the creator's of so many of our problem's. Racism is also increasing across the european mainland in many countries i guess that's down to brexit as well us xenophobic little Englander's inspiring our european brother's and sister's :rolleyes:.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Bringing the subject of racism into unconnected threads seems to be his penchant at the moment :rolleyes:

Besides, even if some actually voted to leave for racist reasons, they were at perfect liberty to do so. Some may not agree with it, some may not like it, but a democracy involves letting people have their say. This includes views different to ones own.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

When someone attacks a regulator, they usually have something to hide.

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:48 ----------

Do you think Putin would have annexed part of Ukraine if it was in the EU?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think Putin annexed a part of the ukraine because he feared they would join the EU and cut off access to the black sea naval facilities. Both NATO and the EU are in the wrong on eastward expansion and in breach of the agreement we made with Russia in the early nineties to safeguard stability. That doesn't excuse Putin for what he did but we handed him the excuse because we didn't abide by the agreement we have pushed right upto Russia's border and gave Putin the perfect chance to cement his position if we hadn't i doubt Putin would be in power right now.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I tend to agree Andrew. It also comes across as very unprofessional, almost childlike.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Seems that there is more of it at the moment due to recent developments so, uncomfortable that it may be to some, it needs to be highlighted and discussed.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Some Racism has always been there for hundreds of years ianch99 but its just become more normalised since the Brexit vote IMO as what was not acceptable to say before Brexit has suddenly become more acceptable for some to say..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

What have the Romans sorry I mean Germans ever done for us?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

They made goose-stepping popular for a short while.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

But it has nothing to do with the process of Brexit, it's just you getting on your hobby horse again to virtue signal.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

but everything to do with the discussion of Brexit. You are just upset at your other thread. Don't worry, it will pass ...

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------

I think that was done to us and not for us :)

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 ----------

Den, that is the essence of the argument :clap:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think everyone will be amused by this!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8347111.html

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think representatives from a different nation for promoting membership of the EU would have veen better, you've got to wonder what desk jocky thought this was a good idea lol.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Apparently BoJo signed it off which he probably did for humour value, the UK would be the 28th EU country I'd choose for such an event! ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Boris shouldn't be allowed near sharp or pointed objects for his and our safety and the feeling I've had about him these last few years is he doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself and his behaviour has cemented my view.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Reminds me of Baldrick and his "I have a cunning plan"!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Baldrick would be the intelligent sidekick of boris.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think Boris is intelligent but doesn't like detail. One rumour I've heard is that he knows things aren't going well with Brexit so he's trying hard to get himself sacked from the Government so his political career is not tainted by it.

This theory could be supported by two other stories reported today:

1) Theresa May admits that her two customs proposals are unworkable.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...rrent-options/
(Full article readable by registering.)

2) Brexit talks have made "little" progress since March, Michel Barnier has said. He highlighted the "risk of failure" in Northern Ireland and governance of the agreement as being the main issues.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44113686

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There's a hell of a lot going on behind the scenes and neither side is very happy at the minute our biggest leverage will be discussed soon and the hardline approach the EU has taken so far will have to soften considerably unless they are willing to be in a very poor position on security and intelligence cooperation. As I've said before there is growing opposition to the approach the EU has adopted so far within the european parliament with the opinion that on the EU end it's more about punishing the UK for leaving then an open constructive process designed to get both sides an acceptable deal.

Right now i think both sides are playing games and both sides also have a deal prepared that's acceptable to both but it's like a game of chicken at the minute first one to blink gains an advantage. Germany is the most concerned right now as they will take an economical hit from brexit, Trump is getting very fed up with Germany not honouring it's NATO commitment and the German public do not want to see Germany filling most of the EU budgetary void left by the UK's leaving it's not working well on the continent and Macron has yet to release the report for the French government on the cost of Brexit to France which it's suspected show's an economical hit for France as well.

This was never one side holding all the cards as many remain and brexit supporters represented it as being and was always going to be a difficult deal to agree but it's becoming clearer that a deal has to be reached or both sides will be loser's and face difficult times. The only advantage is that once out we will not have the southern european countries with severe financial issues to deal with and if the big two in the EU do take an economical hit that situation becomes a little more precarious for the EU. I don't want to see that i want adults to start handling these negotiations so that both sides come out of it with the minimum of damage and the prospect for both constructive relations and reciprocal trade in the future.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Me thinks the whole EU and Euro need to be scrapped in current form and something new developed along lines of

Euro - a trade currency to allow business to trade tax free across borders with know exchange mechanisms and "free" movement of goods, materials, services. Countries then have their own currency that would trade free of the Euro, they can apply changes that suit them at the time. Taxes would be applied locally at point of sale.

Customs - each country can trade within Europe and the world as they wish. The use of the Euro within Europe controls intra European trade and the countries have their own currency to trade with the rest of the world. Some regulation may be needed to prevent one country becoming a dump route in or out.

Border control - controlled locally. It can't be hard to have channels for different countries and nation states can move countries to different channels if needed. Flexibilty if Poslovakiania become a source of concern (move to more secure channel) or the other way is also possible.

Standards - like the Kite Mark and others goods would have to pass agreed standards to receive the pass and consumers can be aware of their rights and so forth.

---
This is very woolly but the idea is to try to allow the free trade etc but also retain more national power. I know that speaking to our European guests (students) that while free movement and peace and trade are seen as good, many of their parents do not like the Euro and some don't like the way the institutions in Brussels and so on make rules their nation has to follow but doesn't always see any benefit.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Personally me thinks we've made a horrendous mistake.Some have woken up and are now panicking about how they can get out of this without being blamed, all a bit late now.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes we are all aware of your position and your happiness to keep repeating it but despite what you think it's the right way for this country and maybe some leavers regret their vote but so do quite a few ramainers some feeling they were massively lied to during the campaign.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I sure as hell don't regret my vote to leave, if I feel that way, I guess the ones who also voted leave also do. There is no evidence people have changed their minds in a massive way.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Good article here on the Ireland problem from The Times: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...6-99299e0f1a1c




---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 21:38 ----------

Trump might try to get the NHS to pay more for American drugs in trade talks: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...nhs-pay-drugs/

At the moment because we bulk buy them we get a hefty discount which American insurers do not get as they are more fragmented and have less buying power as a result. Instead of tackling that problem it seems Trump wants to make it more expensive for other nations. We're not being 'subsidised' by the US, we just get better deals.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Apparently, those who have changed their minds were the undecideds. Those who voted remain or leave have generally not changed their views.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Isn’t that ‘Market Forces’ or ‘The Art of the Deal’?

If you have more/bulk buying power, you get better terms - if the US let Medicare/Medicare negotiate as an entity, they could do the same.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes. More on this issue is in today's Standard.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/poli...-a3839391.html

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I was thinking more of the major political leave backers who can now see the oncoming shambles. Who can they blame? Theresa? The electorate? The EU? The cat ?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There is no 'shambles', except in the Labour Party.

Things may seem confused at the moment, but you must appreciate that the media circus is the result of there being no definitive information being released by the government on the customs union issue. However, Theresa knows exactly what she is doing, what she is aiming for and how to get there.

Despite all the hype, you will come to see that credible solutions to the problems that have been well publicised will be announced. The government is playing a little game with the public at the moment and the idea is to make us in awe of them when they finally get through these negotiations with their brilliant business know-how.

We will get through this and we will leave on time. You'll see. We will look back on these posts and have a jolly good laugh!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Would that be whilst sipping Pimms and reminiscing about the Empire? :D

Re "no definitive Government information" released on the Customs Union issue, what about these?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43860453 https://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...et-Theresa-May

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I hope you are right! Sooner or later however, businesses need to know what the landscape will be after March next year. Order books are filling and supply chains need to be accommodated.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The Brexit process of leaving, is a shambles and that is purely down to one thing. Remainers in the government and in political circles, such as a the Lords, the unelected chamber, trying to thwart the democratic decision that was taken because according to some of the Lords, people did not know what they voted for, bollocks I say.

The Remain camp are doing all they can to sabotage Brexit negotiations, trying to use the NI border issue. Trying to tie us to the Single Market, Customs Union. It's the same old arguments again and again and again.

It's interesting to note that the Petition that asks for a referendum on the abolition of the Lords has surpassed 150,000 signatures, and it has been given a date for debate. 18th June, 2018. Many of the Lords are on a cushy EU benefits and pensions, their reason to stop Brexit is perfectly clear. Selfish, snot nosed imbeciles that they are.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Remain didn't invent the trouble a border would pose in Northern Ireland. Hundreds of years of history did that surprisingly did not go away because it's inconvenient.

Yes it is the same old argument because it's yet to be resolved. It was an issue brought up before the referendum and it's still here because for all the talk of the people's will it doesn't magic away the fundamental problem.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

BBC. House of Lords. Judges. Anyone who voted remain. Industry heads. Civil servants. The Guardian. Nick Clegg. David Milliband.

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

Ireland has always been the elephant in the Brexit room despite the pontifications of people like Rees-Mogg.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You forgot Corbyn and immigrants :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Corbyn was on form in PMQ today though his Brexit strategy is all over the place :D
When the prime minister wrote at the weekend that she wanted ‘as little friction as possible’, was she talking about EU trade or the next cabinet meeting?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No surprise here to anyone who's followed the Irish situation. Hopefully, we'll never leave the customs union, period
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...-union-beyond/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Two warring cabinet factions , a weak wishy-washy leader is a clear recipe for shambolic chaos and that is what is ensuing Andrew.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

We have to leave the Customs union or we are not fully leaving the EU that people democratically elected to do so.

Staying in the EU Single Market or a Customs Union is unacceptable. We must leave the EU in its entirety. That is what I voted for and 17.4 Million others.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If she hadn't held the election she could be more assertive. But ultimately, Europe has divided the Conservatives for as long as I can remember.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

You don't have to be an EU member to be in a customs union with the EU. Turkey isn't for example.

Interestingly, I found out there are parts of the EU not in the customs union. Gibraltar is one..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think the Irish border is one of those things being made more difficult than it needs to be by lawyers and politicians.

The UK want an open border, the Irish want an open border so let's have an open border.

It's not like Norway where the border isn't populated, people have the border running through their houses. It could be an open border policed by the locals in that any large scale movement of goods/people etc would be spotted and could be reported. I suppose some form of official monitoring could be in place on the larger roads if really wanted - it probably already is knowing our surveillance culture.

We (the UK and the Irish) just do it and let the EU/politicos/lawyers worry about it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The issue isn't goods moving back and forth but keeping track of what's gone back and forth. The EU doesn't want a bunch of cheap imported meat going into Ireland and then entering the wider EU unnoticed, passed off as Irish Beef maybe. This is why there are customs checks.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There's the good old immigration question too. The common travel are depends on harmonised immigration policies in the UK and Ireland and that's likely to change

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So, if there is to be no hard border in Ireland, does Northern Ireland need to stay in the single market as well?*
If so, it's BINO (Brexit in name only) but no influence on the law. Is that what "Let's take back control" looks like?

* The rest of the UK would then have to as well in order to comply with Theresa May's DUP accord.

More good news in the Telegraph! Expect Rees-Mogg to start playing the victim! (Alas, registration is needed to read the full article)

Why customs union climbdown shows Britain is heading for a soft Brexit

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Theresa may has said many times we are leaving the customs union and the single market and that's what 17.4 million people voted for it would be a grave mistake to backtrack on that now and she knows it so as much as remainers are constantly hoping for this "soft" brexit the rules don't allow for anything but hard brexit. If the EU can change their rules allowing anything other then hard brexit then can clearly change other rules if it suits them which means they are using the ireland issue as an excuse and we should tell them to sod off. Agreement could be reached on a workable solution but the EU needs to engage rather then just constantly shooting everything down i gaurantee if the UK said next monday "these negotiations are not working for us we are tired of the EU intransigence so we are out come march 2019 we see where things fall" there would be a rapid chane in the EU's negotiating position and likely a replacement of the EU's chief negotiator.