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-   -   Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered ! (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33704414)

passingbat 13-08-2017 11:14
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912209)
Morgan Stanley predicts

Morgan Stanley!
They can be ignored completely. They are Bilderberg members, wanting world government; Scare tactics only.

The FT can be put in the same category.

1andrew1 13-08-2017 11:18
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912236)
The world is a much bigger place to do business with. Embrace the opportunities.

Also be realistic, the EU is failing. We are leaving the sinking corrupted mess of a ship.
The EU's not stopping us from embracing those opportunities. Quite the opposite. We're generally an outward-looking country so there's no areas in the world we aren't trying to sell to.
But losing access to the EU market would harm us as trade deals don't include services and 80% of our exports are services.
EU countries are out-performing the UK. That's hardly failing. The UK's Co-operative Bank was recently bailed out by private equity again and the UK's largest bank RBS remains state-owned and impossible to sell. Like other EU countries, we therefore have bank issues too.
It's easy to think when thumbing through our favourite tabloids that it's a bed of roses here and a bed of nails in Europe. The reality is we're not that much different at the moment but the declining pound is a real concern.

Mick 13-08-2017 11:23
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912243)
The EU's not stopping us from embracing those opportunities. Quite the opposite. We're generally an outward-looking country so there's no areas in the world we aren't trying to sell to.
But losing access to the EU market would harm us as trade deals don't include services and 80% of our exports are services.
EU countries are out-performing the UK. That's hardly failing. The UK's Co-operative Bank was recently bailed out by private equity again and the UK's largest bank RBS remains state-owned and impossible to sell. Like other EU countries, we therefore have bank issues too.
It's easy to think when thumbing through our favourite tabloids that it's a bed of roses here and a bed of nails in Europe. The reality is we're not that much different at the moment but the declining pound is a real concern.
Oh here we go with the stupid accusations of certain tabloid reading. :rolleyes:

I don't read any FFS. I'm entitled to form my own opinion without any media influence. I'm not like you or others who follow every story so blindly, like lost sheep. :rolleyes:

1andrew1 13-08-2017 11:48
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912244)
Oh here we go with the stupid accusations of certain tabloid reading. :rolleyes:

I don't read any FFS. I'm entitled to form my own opinion without any media influence. I'm not like you or others who follow every story so blindly, like lost sheep. :rolleyes:
The comments you refer to aren't a one-to-one email to you, they're forum posts.
But on a point of accuracy, you have linked to the Express before which would be hard to do without reading it.
You're not like me because you choose only to read a selection of stories that reinforce your views. When I have tried to draw your attention to other stories you have said you're not interested in reading them. I look at both sides and make up my mind and you'll see that some stories I post are EU critical like the recent City AM piece.

Mick 13-08-2017 13:27
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912245)
The comments you refer to aren't a one-to-one email to you, they're forum posts.
But on a point of accuracy, you have linked to the Express before which would be hard to do without reading it.
You're not like me because you choose only to read a selection of stories that reinforce your views. When I have tried to draw your attention to other stories you have said you're not interested in reading them. I look at both sides and make up my mind and you'll see that some stories I post are EU critical like the recent City AM piece.
Andrew, you're the biggest culprit for selecting stories that suit your anti-brexit agenda. More often than not you will link to the guardian.

And no I won't read scare monger BS stories, which is what half the time, you link to.

1andrew1 13-08-2017 17:31
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912258)
Andrew, you're the biggest culprit for selecting stories that suit your anti-brexit agenda. More often than not you will link to the guardian.

And no I won't read scare monger BS stories, which is what half the time, you link to.
The most frequently-quoted website by me in this thread is actually FullFact.org.

TheDaddy 13-08-2017 17:51
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912236)
The world is a much bigger place to do business with. Embrace the opportunities.
Out of interest what business will we be doing that we're not doing now, what will we be selling the world that we're not selling now. I can see what the rest of the world is getting out of it re clorinated chicken and the like but what do we get out of it.

ianch99 13-08-2017 18:31
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912231)
Still don't regret my vote. Let that sink in. :p:
'Let that sink in"? Don't be so pompous. No one really cares how you voted apart from you but you seem to think we all need to be told over and over again with some cool millennial hash tag (as if this it make it more worthy a statement)

What people care about is the future of this country and the wellbeing of their children who are being dragged out of a future they were more than happy with into one which holds, at best, a promise of uncertainly with all that comes with that, and at worse, a significantly poorer lifestyle.

Still, hey, it is not what the young think or want, it is the older generation that matters .. yes, the one that won't be around when this mess has played out.

Just put on those empire-tinted sunglasses on and dial the clock back to the 50's and repeat the Brexit creed: "worth the journey at any cost"

Mick 13-08-2017 18:53
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35912290)
Out of interest what business will we be doing that we're not doing now, what will we be selling the world that we're not selling now. I can see what the rest of the world is getting out of it re clorinated chicken and the like but what do we get out of it.
We won't be constricted by EU rules when it comes to trade with non-EU countries and tariff-free access to fast growing, protected markets of Asia, Africa and South America would be worthwhile.

As of right now, EU membership prevents us negotiating free trade deals and the EU has negotiated, so few deals for us, for example, none at all with the likes of China, India, Australia, Brazil. (And these are screaming to trade with us once we leave the EU).

As for the Single Market, every country has access to the Single Market, with or without tariffs.

If we left the EU with no trade deal, our exports would face EU tariffs averaging just 2.4%.

The other beauty is, we can retain free trade with the EU without paying our current entry fee which costs more than the tariffs we avoid. To put it another way, our net contribution to the EU budget is equivalent to a 7% tariff. Paying 7% to avoid 2.4% costs, is a total con!

1andrew1 13-08-2017 19:13
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912308)
We won't be constricted by EU rules when it comes to trade with non-EU countries and tariff-free access to fast growing, protected markets of Asia, Africa and South America would be worthwhile.

As of right now, EU membership prevents us negotiating free trade deals and the EU has negotiated, so few deals for us, for example, none at all with the likes of China, India, Australia, Brazil. (And these are screaming to trade with us once we leave the EU).

As for the Single Market, every country has access to the Single Market, with or without tariffs.

If we left the EU with no trade deal, our exports would face EU tariffs averaging just 2.4%.

The other beauty is, we can retain free trade with the EU without paying our current entry fee which costs more than the tariffs we avoid. To put it another way, our net contribution to the EU budget is equivalent to a 7% tariff. Paying 7% to avoid 2.4% costs, is a total con!
The EU is the most successful negotiator of trade deals in the world so quite how we can do better on our own I'm not sure.
But the main issue for the UK is that we sell services (80% of our exports) and these tend to fall outside free trade deals. That's why UK banks are busy moving staff to the EU.
Where do you get your tariff calculations from Mick? The EU costs include regulation costs that need to be covered whether done locally in the UK or centrally as part of the EU.

Mick 13-08-2017 19:27
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35912302)
'Let that sink in"? Don't be so pompous. No one really cares how you voted apart from you but you seem to think we all need to be told over and over again with some cool millennial hash tag (as if this it make it more worthy a statement)
Don't be so obnoxious...

I won't be told by anybody, that brexiteers are becoming desperate, because this one isn't, because I do not believe we will at all be in a mess, and yes, I repeat the hashtags because i'm sick of the daily whinging from some of the hard-line remainers, i.e those who cannot see, or choose not to, past their own noses and full of complete doom and gloom.

I am fully optimistic, unlike yourself, that we do not need to be with a corrupt entity, like the failing EU, which actually handicaps us when it comes to trade with the rest of the world!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99
What people care about is the future of this country and the wellbeing of their children who are being dragged out of a future they were more than happy with into one which holds, at best, a promise of uncertainly with all that comes with that, and at worse, a significantly poorer lifestyle.
It will not be a significantly poorer lifestyle at all, more doom and gloom BS. :rolleyes:

If they were so happy as you say, why did these 'young' adults not vote for the Liberal Democrats in the election just gone?

Why the hell did they not vote for a party which was promising another vote on the EU membership ?

But hang on, let's keep having a referendum until you get the result you want. :rolleyes:

Why did over 80% of the electorate and yes, many of the young, opt for parties that were committed to Brexit in the general election just gone ?

And how dare you, I and I am sure, 17.4 million other people, care for the future of this country, a great deal, we have been shafted for the last 40+ years, by corrupt politicians in Brussels, but hey, not for much longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99
Still, hey, it is not what the young think or want, it is the older generation that matters .. yes, the one that won't be around when this mess has played out.
Still, hey, rubbish.

For the last 40+ years, we have already been in a bloody mess, we will be getting out of one for sure.

TheDaddy 13-08-2017 19:47
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912308)
We won't be constricted by EU rules when it comes to trade with non-EU countries and tariff-free access to fast growing, protected markets of Asia, Africa and South America would be worthwhile.

As of right now, EU membership prevents us negotiating free trade deals and the EU has negotiated, so few deals for us, for example, none at all with the likes of China, India, Australia, Brazil. (And these are screaming to trade with us once we leave the EU).

As for the Single Market, every country has access to the Single Market, with or without tariffs.

If we left the EU with no trade deal, our exports would face EU tariffs averaging just 2.4%.

The other beauty is, we can retain free trade with the EU without paying our current entry fee which costs more than the tariffs we avoid. To put it another way, our net contribution to the EU budget is equivalent to a 7% tariff. Paying 7% to avoid 2.4% costs, is a total con!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912315)
The EU is the most successful negotiator of trade deals in the world so quite how we can do better on our own I'm not sure.
But the main issue for the UK is that we sell services (80% of our exports) and these tend to fall outside free trade deals. That's why UK banks are busy moving staff to the EU.
Where do you get your tariff calculations from Mick? The EU costs include regulation costs that need to be covered whether done locally in the UK or centrally as part of the EU.
Took the words out of my mouth re trade deals and service sector and doesn't really answer my question about what we will sell them that we don't now. Besides which it's not like US haven't got a proven track of bullying smaller partners in trade deals, they must be rubbing their hands together at the prospect.

OLD BOY 13-08-2017 19:54
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35912324)
Took the words out of my mouth re trade deals and service sector and doesn't really answer my question about what we will sell them that we don't now. Besides which it's not like US haven't got a proven track of bullying smaller partners in trade deals, they must be rubbing their hands together at the prospect.
Really? Is that why it took seven years to negotiate a trade deal with Canada and after a full ten years, the US trade deal still hasn't been signed?

Do you guys not understand the dreadful organisation that is the EU and the fact that 90% of future growth over the next two decades will be outside of the EU?

The EU is a lot smaller than the whole world, and the rest of the world is eager to embrace new trade deals, unlike the stagnant and slowly dying EU monolith.

1andrew1 13-08-2017 20:02
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912319)
For the last 40 years, we have already been in a bloody mess, we will be getting out of one for sure.
It's a shame that you can't acknowledge how great Great Britain is and want to risk this. Record living standards, great culture, fantastic 2012 Olympics.
The country's not perfect and I'll be the first to admit this. But it's scarcely a mess. Just look at cities like Liverpool and Manchester and how they've improved since the 1980s. Why risk dragging us back to those dark days?

OLD BOY 13-08-2017 20:04
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912330)
It's a shame that you can't acknowledge how great Great Britain is and want to risk this. Record living standards, great culture, fantastic 2012 Olympics.
The country's not perfect and I'll be the first to admit this. But it's scarcely a mess. Just look at cities like Liverpool and Manchester and how they've improved since the 1980s. Why risk dragging us back to those dark days?
None of these are down to the EU, Andrew.

Mick 13-08-2017 20:12
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35912331)
None of these are down to the EU, Andrew.
:clap: Took the words, right out of my typing. :D

1andrew1 13-08-2017 20:19
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35912327)
Really? Is that why it took seven years to negotiate a trade deal with Canada and after a full ten years, the US trade deal still hasn't been signed?

Do you guys not understand the dreadful organisation that is the EU and the fact that 90% of future growth over the next two decades will be outside of the EU?

The EU is a lot smaller than the whole world, and the rest of the world is eager to embrace new trade deals, unlike the stagnant and slowly dying EU monolith.
First paragraph:
Trade deals take a long time. Thre fact that the EU has signed many more than any other trading bloc shows it's rather good at it. In fact, a lot of the negotiators are British and have done a cracking job for the UK. Thanks, guys.

Second paragraph:
Staying in the EU is the best bet for trade deals and Germany has no problem exporting as part of the EU. Have you heard of divide and conquer? Have you ever negotiated as a small organisation and then as a large one and got a better deal as a small organisation? I certainly haven't.
But as discussed earlier, trade deals as they don't cover services as much as you would like the debate to be about this. We export services and these generally fall outside trade deals

Third paragraph
Finally, desperate and emotional tosh like stagnant and dying monolith don't cut it with those of in the real world. The EU's outperforming us at the moment and will continue to grow. It's a great market for services and it's on our doorstep. I hope for our children's future we don't lose that market.

---------- Post added at 20:19 ---------- Previous post was at 20:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35912331)
None of these are down to the EU, Andrew.
The country is great despite Mick taking a swipe at it. I've read quite a lot that shows how living standards have improved since we joined the EU enabling us to afford inner city regeneration and the Olympics. The European City of Culture award was a turning point for Liverpool and that's certainly an EU award.

Mick 13-08-2017 20:22
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912335)
Firstly, I've never claimed they are down to the EU. I've just said that the country is great despite Mick taking a swipe at it.
All that being said, I've read quite a lot to suggest that living standards have improved since we joined the EU.
Nice distortion of what I said there.

I have never took a swipe at any of the achievements of this country, but we certainly have made many of them without the need of the EU. Please don't twist my posts Andrew.

1andrew1 13-08-2017 20:30
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912338)
Nice distortion of what I said there.

I have never took a swipe at any of the achievements of this country, but we certainly have made many of them without the need of the EU. Please don't twist my posts Andrew.
Sorry. I genuinely aim not to distort anyone's words and I take you at your word on this. :) It's just that when you say we've "been in a bloody mess" to my mind it belittles all the fantastic things the country has done.
As a proud patriotic Brit, perhaps I'm being over-sensitive.

passingbat 13-08-2017 23:46
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35912302)
being dragged out of a future they were more than happy with into one which holds, at best, a promise of uncertainly with all that comes with that, and at worse, a significantly poorer lifestyle.

So, by that premise, shouldn't remain have Won?

1andrew1 14-08-2017 00:01
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Will be interesting to see more of the UK's strategy unveiled over the next week or so, particularly now she has apparently canned the silly no-deal approach.
Quote:
Financial Times Key parts of the UK’s Brexit negotiating strategy are set to be revealed over the coming 10 days as Theresa May, the prime minister, returns from holiday and launches a series of critical position papers.
The papers’ publication will start to flesh out how far the UK government’s position has shifted from the stance Mrs May set out in January, in a speech at Lancaster House, which raised the possibility that the UK would rather leave the EU with no deal than a bad deal.
But Mrs May will return to a divided cabinet, with senior ministers having taken advantage of her three-week absence to launch very public challenges.
Google "Crucial Brexit week looms as May returns from holiday" or https://www.ft.com/content/518a3506-...bc928?mhq5j=e1

ianch99 14-08-2017 12:28
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by passingbat (Post 35912373)
So, by that premise, shouldn't remain have Won?
No. The younger voters were not as motivated to vote as the older ones were. They contributed to their own downfall so to speak.

It is clear that the vast majority of younger voters did not want to leave the EU but they did not, for some perverse reason, express those wishes at the ballot box.

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912319)
Don't be so obnoxious...

I won't be told by anybody, that brexiteers are becoming desperate, because this one isn't, because I do not believe we will at all be in a mess, and yes, I repeat the hashtags because i'm sick of the daily whinging from some of the hard-line remainers, i.e those who cannot see, or choose not to, past their own noses and full of complete doom and gloom.

I am fully optimistic, unlike yourself, that we do not need to be with a corrupt entity, like the failing EU, which actually handicaps us when it comes to trade with the rest of the world!



It will not be a significantly poorer lifestyle at all, more doom and gloom BS. :rolleyes:

If they were so happy as you say, why did these 'young' adults not vote for the Liberal Democrats in the election just gone?

Why the hell did they not vote for a party which was promising another vote on the EU membership ?

But hang on, let's keep having a referendum until you get the result you want. :rolleyes:

Why did over 80% of the electorate and yes, many of the young, opt for parties that were committed to Brexit in the general election just gone ?

And how dare you, I and I am sure, 17.4 million other people, care for the future of this country, a great deal, we have been shafted for the last 40+ years, by corrupt politicians in Brussels, but hey, not for much longer.



Still, hey, rubbish.

For the last 40+ years, we have already been in a bloody mess, we will be getting out of one for sure.
If you keep telling us on a daily basis how you voted (with or without #hashtags) then we have a duty to remind you that you are mistaken.

Your debating style, lacing your replies with hyperbole:

Quote:
we have been shafted for the last 40+ years
only serves to distract from the points you are trying to make.

Julian 14-08-2017 12:54
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35912404)
No. The younger voters were not as motivated to vote as the older ones were. They contributed to their own downfall so to speak.

It is clear that the vast majority of younger voters did not want to leave the EU but they did not, for some perverse reason, express those wishes at the ballot box.
And yet, even armed with two votes each at the last GE, they still failed to vote either time for a party who could have reversed that decision. :dunce:

Mick 14-08-2017 12:56
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35912404)
No. The younger voters were not as motivated to vote as the older ones were. They contributed to their own downfall so to speak.

It is clear that the vast majority of younger voters did not want to leave the EU but they did not, for some perverse reason, express those wishes at the ballot box.

---------- Post added at 12:28 ---------- Previous post was at 12:14 ----------



If you keep telling us on a daily basis how you voted (with or without #hashtags) then we have a duty to remind you that you are mistaken.

Your debating style, lacing your replies with hyperbole:



only serves to distract from the points you are trying to make.
:zzz:

I'm not mistaken, it's very arrogant to assume you're correcting a mistake, you say I'm making, and you have the gall to criticise my debating style. We're better out and I will keep on saying it.

passingbat 14-08-2017 16:21
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35912404)
No. The younger voters were not as motivated to vote as the older ones were. They contributed to their own downfall so to speak.

It is clear that the vast majority of younger voters did not want to leave the EU but they did not, for some perverse reason, express those wishes at the ballot box.
.

It they're not interested in voting, they're not interested enough to do research, and therefore, not capable of making an informed vote. Opinions solely based on roaming charges don't count ;)

Mythica 14-08-2017 17:22
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912409)
We're better out and I will keep on saying it.
You don't know that, I don't know that and the experts don't know that. That's the most dangerous part of all this, we don't have a clue how we will fair yet people are deluded enough to believe it.

TheDaddy 14-08-2017 17:40
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by passingbat (Post 35912456)
It they're not interested in voting, they're not interested enough to do research, and therefore, not capable of making an informed vote. Opinions solely based on roaming charges don't count ;)
Where as opinions based on lies and bs are perfectly valid, the roaming charge thing might be pathetic but at least it might actually be based in fact. I said the night before the vote that based on those campaigns our democracy is in big trouble and then along came the general election to emphasise the point. The thing that makes me laugh is that all the people crowing about the results don't seem concerned to think about the future when the result doesn't go their way

Mick 14-08-2017 19:50
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35912460)
You don't know that, I don't know that and the experts don't know that. That's the most dangerous part of all this, we don't have a clue how we will fair yet people are deluded enough to believe it.
This applies to either side but I don't apologise for being very optimistic about how well we can do without the need for being in the EU.

Mr K 14-08-2017 20:08
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912497)
This applies to either side but I don't apologise for being very optimistic about how well we can do without the need for being in the EU.
I'll give you this Mick you really are a supreme optimist ;) Do you really have that much faith in our politicians? I don't, maybe I'm a pessimist or a realist. Time will tell.

passingbat 14-08-2017 21:30
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35912409)
:zzz:
We're better out and I will keep on saying it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35912460)
You don't know that, I don't know that and the experts don't know that. That's the most dangerous part of all this, we don't have a clue how we will fair yet people are deluded enough to believe it.

I 100% agree with Mick. There is more to the EU than meets the eye. The sooner we leave the better. The close association of some of the EU top-dogs with Bilderberg, a globalist organisation, should raise alarm bells for starters; they are against national sovereignty, which is what the EU are doing by taking political decisions from the UK and giving them into the hands of non directly elected leaders.

1andrew1 14-08-2017 22:43
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
I mentioned yesterday that the Government would belatedly be publishing its negotiation position on key aspects of Brexit this week. The first has emerged and it's bad news for those who failed to grasp the severe economic downside of a so-called clean break.
Quote:
Britain will seek to continue its current customs arrangements with the EU for several years after Brexit, in a victory for supporters of a smooth transition. A government paper to be published on Tuesday makes clear that the UK wants to remain in a customs union with the EU for at least the estimated three years of transition after Britain’s 2019 exit.
https://www.ft.com/content/b58ca3b6-...e-15b2513cb3ff

denphone 15-08-2017 06:21
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35912501)
I'll give you this Mick you really are a supreme optimist ;) Do you really have that much faith in our politicians? I don't, maybe I'm a pessimist or a realist. Time will tell.
Even though Brexit is happening and people have to accept that l have no faith that politicians will deliver us anything at all as their track record for doing this is not good as all sadly.

ianch99 15-08-2017 12:30
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by passingbat (Post 35912456)
It they're not interested in voting, they're not interested enough to do research, and therefore, not capable of making an informed vote. Opinions solely based on roaming charges don't count ;)
You need to be more careful when trying to caricature whole sections of society with one dimensional judgements. You well know younger people voted for all sorts of different reasons.

The Leavers, correctly, got very upset when they were painted as singularly uneducated or racist.

passingbat 15-08-2017 23:03
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35912632)
You need to be more careful when trying to caricature whole sections of society with one dimensional judgements. You well know younger people voted for all sorts of different reasons.

The Leavers, correctly, got very upset when they were painted as singularly uneducated or racist.



I'm perfectly fine with the words that I used.
I was speaking about a specific section of the young; those who didn't vote. Did you miss the wink when referring to the roaming charges bit?


I'm a Leaver and you are welcome to call me anything that you like. And I assure you, that there is no way I will 'get very upset'


I knew that winning the referendum was just the first step; then the real battle would begin

pip08456 15-08-2017 23:50
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912335)
First paragraph:
Trade deals take a long time. Thre fact that the EU has signed many more than any other trading bloc shows it's rather good at it. In fact, a lot of the negotiators are British and have done a cracking job for the UK. Thanks, guys.
.
Now let me try to understand this correctly,

The Eu has signed more trade deals than any other trading bloc.

A lot of the negotiators are British and have done a cracking job for the UK.

Do you not think that those same guys will not do a cracking job for the UK when we leave?

OLD BOY 16-08-2017 08:22
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912554)
I mentioned yesterday that the Government would belatedly be publishing its negotiation position on key aspects of Brexit this week. The first has emerged and it's bad news for those who failed to grasp the severe economic downside of a so-called clean break.

https://www.ft.com/content/b58ca3b6-...e-15b2513cb3ff
This is simply to allow more time to put in place appropriate customs controls. We will still have left the customs union because this prevents us from doing trade deals with the rest of the world.

To describe this as a 'severe economic downslide' is way off the mark. It is merely a device to smooth the transition. As long as we leave the customs union and common market in 2019, and we are no longer ruled by the European Courts, the transitional arrangements that are agreed change nothing in terms of our leaving the EU.

The vast majority of global growth in the next couple of decades will come from outside the EU, so where you get the idea that this bureaucratic monstrosity called the EU is worth belonging to I really cannot imagine. Fear of change, maybe?

TheDaddy 16-08-2017 08:39
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35912762)
Now let me try to understand this correctly,

The Eu has signed more trade deals than any other trading bloc.

A lot of the negotiators are British and have done a cracking job for the UK.

Do you not think that those same guys will not do a cracking job for the UK when we leave?
Maybe because they're still working for the EU :shrug:

1andrew1 16-08-2017 13:20
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35912762)
Now let me try to understand this correctly,

The Eu has signed more trade deals than any other trading bloc.

A lot of the negotiators are British and have done a cracking job for the UK.

Do you not think that those same guys will not do a cracking job for the UK when we leave?
No because we will have left the EU and they will no longer be able to do a cracking job for us. The solution would be to convince them to leave the EU and work for the UK but this could be seen as a career step-down.

Chris 16-08-2017 16:31
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912837)
No because we will have left the EU and they will no longer be able to do a cracking job for us. The solution would be to convince them to leave the EU and work for the UK but this could be seen as a career step-down.
As you have to be an EU citizen to work for its bureaucracy, I suspect it won't be necessary to convince them to return to the UK.

Osem 16-08-2017 19:51
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35912872)
As you have to be an EU citizen to work for its bureaucracy, I suspect it won't be necessary to convince them to return to the UK.
Maybe he's one of them and that's why he can't see or admit to anything positive outside of the EU. :D

pip08456 16-08-2017 21:05
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35912895)
Maybe he's one of them and that's why he can't see or admit to anything positive outside of the EU. :D
Has he ever thought that those self same negotiators are more than likely the ones dealing with the Berexit negotiations?

1andrew1 16-08-2017 23:21
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35912895)
Maybe he's one of them and that's why he can't see or admit to anything positive outside of the EU. :D
Ha ha. I remember when someone came on here and asked the Brexiters to post three positive things about the EU and the Remainers three positive things about leaving.
I stepped up but the Leavers just posted glib comments like "The best thing about the EU is leaving it"
You probably haven't seen it, but I have linked to articles critical of the EU. That's more open-mindedness than I've seen from a lot of people on this forum, you included.

pip08456 17-08-2017 00:37
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912929)
Ha ha. I remember when someone came on here and asked the Brexiters to post three positive things about the EU and the Remainers three positive things about leaving.
I stepped up but the Leavers just posted glib comments like "The best thing about the EU is leaving it"
You probably haven't seen it, but I have linked to articles critical of the EU. That's more open-mindedness than I've seen from a lot of people on this forum, you included.
How do you expect any "Brexiter" to post one positive thing when we don't find anything positive about it?

Let's take an example of something topical, the silencing of Big Ben for 4 years.

Quote:
The Parliamentary authorities said it would be ‘unacceptable’ to expose workers on scaffolding surrounding the tower to the noise of the chimes – and also ‘unacceptable’ for them to wear ear defenders.
Why is unacceptable for workers to wear ear defenders when needed?

The answer:

Quote:
EU health and safety rules dictate that ear defenders can be used only as a last resort in the workplace.

ianch99 17-08-2017 09:24
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35912934)
How do you expect any "Brexiter" to post one positive thing when we don't find anything positive about it?

Let's take an example of something topical, the silencing of Big Ben for 4 years.



Why is unacceptable for workers to wear ear defenders when needed?

The answer:
Why is the EU responsible for ear defenders not to be worn? The EU directive covers the noise thresholds deemed hazardous to health and the measures available to mitigate them.

Your phrase " EU health and safety rules dictate that ear defenders can be used only as a last resort in the workplace" is quoted from a Daily Mail article.

Taking your "facts" from the Daily Mail is a risky approach but this topic is a good example of how the anti-EU hysteria is propagated.

jonbxx 17-08-2017 09:32
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35912929)
Ha ha. I remember when someone came on here and asked the Brexiters to post three positive things about the EU and the Remainers three positive things about leaving.
I stepped up but the Leavers just posted glib comments like "The best thing about the EU is leaving it"
You probably haven't seen it, but I have linked to articles critical of the EU. That's more open-mindedness than I've seen from a lot of people on this forum, you included.
That was me! I was frankly disappointed in the responses from some on here, including the very erudite 'NO' from one member. I thought it was an interesting intellectual exercise that clearly passed some by. I was a firm remainer and still think this is a bad decision (before we go on, I accept the result and would like to make us leaving as painless as possible) However, I could easily name three things that could be improved within the EU.

This is not a black and white issue as I have said before - very few things are.

ianch99 17-08-2017 09:44
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35912957)
That was me! I was frankly disappointed in the responses from some on here, including the very erudite 'NO' from one member. I thought it was an interesting intellectual exercise that clearly passed some by. I was a firm remainer and still think this is a bad decision (before we go on, I accept the result and would like to make us leaving as painless as possible) However, I could easily name three things that could be improved within the EU.

This is not a black and white issue as I have said before - very few things are.
I agree with with all you have said with the addendum that Leaving must be driven by the pragmatic needs of the country and not the religious dogma of the extremists.

The issue that a lot of people have is when a complex issue is re-painted as you say, black and white, it leads to wrong decisions.

Caricaturing the EU as the root of all evil is childish but it does play to a particular audience and some are gullible enough to believe the message.

jonbxx 17-08-2017 09:51
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35912955)
Your phrase " EU health and safety rules dictate that ear defenders can be used only as a last resort in the workplace" is quoted from a Daily Mail article.

Taking your "facts" from the Daily Mail is a risky approach but this topic is a good example of how the anti-EU hysteria is propagated.
And anti health and safety hysteria as well! The suggestions that PPE should only be used as a last resort is there as clear as day on the HSE web site (link) Can't see anything similar in Directive 2003/10/EC
 The HSE and BAuA (germany) pretty much set the health and safety agenda in the EU. Germany is a hell of lot more strict on the health side BTW

tweetiepooh 17-08-2017 13:27
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Of course PPE is a last resort. If there is a hazard you remove the hazard first, then protect workers exposed to the hazard.

In the case of a clock bell striking it's a no brainer, you turn off the bell.

But it wasn't simply noise, it's the shock waves and that PPE gear can also become a hazard in their own right. If you block of sound, it makes it more difficult to communicate, e.g. what if you needed to shout to a colleague about an immediate danger. (Yes you could have communication built in but would they? And a sudden shout in the silence could be interesting.)

1andrew1 17-08-2017 18:09
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35912955)
Why is the EU responsible for ear defenders not to be worn? The EU directive covers the noise thresholds deemed hazardous to health and the measures available to mitigate them.

Your phrase " EU health and safety rules dictate that ear defenders can be used only as a last resort in the workplace" is quoted from a Daily Mail article.

Taking your "facts" from the Daily Mail is a risky approach but this topic is a good example of how the anti-EU hysteria is propagated.
Your independent research has "silenced" the opposition. :) I wish more people on here didn't believe everything the Mail told them and thought for themselves.

Kursk 18-08-2017 11:00
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
<walks in> Remoaning continues :zzz: <walks out>

Osem 18-08-2017 11:10
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35912904)
Has he ever thought that those self same negotiators are more than likely the ones dealing with the Berexit negotiations?
Really??? Could they be??? Could they have a vested interested in undermining the UK's case and shafting us for as much as they can get??? :D

What interests me is the mindset of any UK citizen who'd want that to happen. Why would anyone want the UK to get a bad deal and do their utmost to undermine everything that's being done to try to ensure we don't get one? It's bizarre mate. It's like they lost the argument and are so angry that they will only feel better if the end result is worse than in ought to be and then they can harp on about it. :spin: Pretty pathetic when you come to think of it....

1andrew1 18-08-2017 12:29
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35913108)
Really??? Could they be??? Could they have a vested interested in undermining the UK's case and shafting us for as much as they can get??? :D

What interests me is the mindset of any UK citizen who'd want that to happen. Why would anyone want the UK to get a bad deal and do their utmost to undermine everything that's being done to try to ensure we don't get one? It's bizarre mate. It's like they lost the argument and are so angry that they will only feel better if the end result is worse than in ought to be and then they can harp on about it. :spin: Pretty pathetic when you come to think of it....
I don't know anyone who wants the UK to get a bad deal but the haphazard approach that the Government has taken so far makes me wonder if Theresa May subconsciously wants to punish the country for voting out.

Mick 18-08-2017 15:57
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35913115)
I don't know anyone who wants the UK to get a bad deal but the haphazard approach that the Government has taken so far makes me wonder if Theresa May subconsciously wants to punish the country for voting out.
No, let's get it right, the EU and their ilk want to punish the UK for voting out, remember the old drunken prick, Jean Claude Juncker's words 'This is not an amicable divorce!'

Osem 18-08-2017 16:28
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35913142)
No, let's get it right, the EU and their ilk want to punish the UK for voting out, remember the old drunken prick, Jean Claude Juncker's words 'This is not an amicable divorce!'
Yup there's been plenty of that sort of thing emanating from those lovely Eurocrats, you know the ones the usual suspects here can't bear to criticise at all. It's perfectly clear that the EU wants to be seen to make the UK pay heavily for daring to leave their empire and what's equally clear is that there are those amongst us who'd happily help them do just that.

Most right minded people hope a sensible compromise can be found but if EU dogma prevents them from doing that then it's their fault not ours - we just need to move on and thank our lucky stars that we got out while we could.

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------

Quote:
... today’s new Institute of Economics Affairs report on trade policy has been well-received by ministers. It argues that no deal with the EU on trade would not be a disaster for the UK, recommending Britain commits to a policy of unilateral free trade with the rest of the world, eliminating all barriers to imports regardless of whether other countries impose tariffs on their imports from the UK. It would then be up to the EU if it wanted to impose tariffs, which would hurt EU consumers by raising prices. In such a scenario, the IEA report concludes the UK would likely be given tariff free access to the single market:
https://order-order.com/2017/08/18/i...al-free-trade/

jonbxx 18-08-2017 18:30
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
It's almost like in the run up to the referendum, the remain campaign said that the EU would not make things easy for the UK if it left. That's all project fear of course....

The IEA are a bunch of economic loons by the way. They are free trade fans who want to remove all trade tariffs. If the UK followed that advice, we can wave goodbye to the last of our manufacturing industry. When the government vetoed the anti dumping tariffs for Chinese steel, look what happened to our steel industry

1andrew1 18-08-2017 21:52
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35913142)
No, let's get it right, the EU and their ilk want to punish the UK for voting out, remember the old drunken prick, Jean Claude Juncker's words 'This is not an amicable divorce!'
I was talking from a British angle.

Chris 19-08-2017 16:01
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35913195)
It's almost like in the run up to the referendum, the remain campaign said that the EU would not make things easy for the UK if it left. That's all project fear of course....
Less project fear, more a reality check on the true attitudes of the bureaucratic zealots running the EU. We have committed heresy by asking to leave, of course they're going to persecute us. This, however, is another reason to leave, not a reason to kow-tow to them.

pip08456 19-08-2017 16:59
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35913293)
Less project fear, more a reality check on the true attitudes of the bureaucratic zealots running the EU. We have committed heresy by asking to leave, of course they're going to persecute us. This, however, is another reason to leave, not a reason to kow-tow to them.
Wh
at they also have to remember is the more intransigent they are the more a no deal exit will happen.

heero_yuy 19-08-2017 17:07
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35913298)
Wh
at they also have to remember is the more intransigent they are the more a no deal exit will happen.
And no dosh so they'll have to find another 10-12 billion pounds a year from the Germans.

Mr K 19-08-2017 20:23
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35913298)
What they also have to remember is the more intransigent they are the more a no deal exit will happen.
And if that happens then we'll be in a much worse off than the EU. 26 Vs 1, who's going to win ? The EU have very consistent and united in their negotiating position, we've been all over the place and divided.

pip08456 20-08-2017 07:47
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35913320)
And if that happens then we'll be in a much worse off than the EU. 26 Vs 1, who's going to win ? The EU have very consistent and united in their negotiating position, we've been all over the place and divided.
No contest!

We save/they lose quite a few billion£. It will also hamper their export market if no sensible deal is reached.

Reaching an amicable deal is in their own best interests.

heero_yuy 20-08-2017 10:18
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Households will be up to £40 a week better off once Britain has left the EU, top economists claimed.

The price of food and other products will tumble as we begin importing tariff-free goods from around the world.
National output will rise as we become an international trading nation – raising living standards, creating better-paid jobs and cutting unemployment.

Britain’s economy could enjoy a Brexit boost worth £135billion a year, according to a glowing assessment by a group of 16 leading economists.

They say there is mounting evidence that quitting Europe’s trade barriers will transform our prospects over the next decade.

We would also reap savings from cutting immigration, slashing EU red tape and halting contributions to Brussels.

Professor Patrick Minford, who helped draft the report, argued it is time to abandon the gloomy forecasts and embrace the new prosperity on the horizon.

He declared: “Project Fear failed yet many Remainers are trying to resurrect it.
Source

Mr K 20-08-2017 10:31
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35913380)
these aren't exactly neutral economists. They are the Economists for Free Trade (EFT), formerly known as Economists for Brexit.

Did the Sun not mention that? :rolleyes:

denphone 20-08-2017 10:45
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35913380)
We are leaving the EU that is for sure but if anybody thinks cheaper prices are coming they are living in cuckoo land IMO.

OLD BOY 20-08-2017 19:02
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35913381)
these aren't exactly neutral economists. They are the Economists for Free Trade (EFT), formerly known as Economists for Brexit.

Did the Sun not mention that? :rolleyes:
Are you aware of any neutral economists?

1andrew1 20-08-2017 19:25
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35913383)
We are leaving the EU that is for sure but if anybody thinks cheaper prices are coming they are living in cuckoo land IMO.
Mid-August is the traditional silly season for news and The Sun article continues this noble tradition. :D

ianch99 20-08-2017 19:26
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Brexiteers can't have it both ways. Either Economists who are respected in their field are able to comment authoritatively on likely future outcomes or they are not.

You can't argue that Economists who back Leave should be listened to and their wise words backing the decision to Leave accepted but, at the same time, rubbish any Economists who predict the opposite outcome.

On the subject of Economists who are respected in their field, Professor Minford has some critics:

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/...brexit-claims/

Quote:
According to economics professors from the London School of Economics, Professor Minford’s earlier Brexit forecasts were “really far-fetched” and “crazy”. He “misunderstands the nature of regulations and product standards”, they added. Economist Monique Ebell from the National Institute of Social and Economic Research told the BBC that Professor Minford “ignores decades of evidence on how trade actually works”.
It is ironic that the BBC is under fire for publishing this article without also highlighting said Professor's past claims. For example:

Quote:
In the run up to the Brexit referendum Professor Minford sparked controversy when he said that the effect of leaving the EU would be to “eliminate manufacturing, leaving mainly industries such as design, marketing and hi-tech”
The BBC can't win ..

1andrew1 20-08-2017 19:49
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35913454)
Brexiteers can't have it both ways. Either Economists who are respected in their field are able to comment authoritatively on likely future outcomes or they are not.

You can't argue that Economists who back Leave should be listened to and their wise words backing the decision to Leave accepted but, at the same time, rubbish any Economists who predict the opposite outcome.
It's called the Brexit denying nature approach - having your cake and eating it. ;)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35913454)
On the subject of Economists who are respected in their field, Professor Minford has some critics:

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/...brexit-claims/

It is ironic that the BBC is under fire for publishing this article without also highlighting said Professor's past claims. For example:

The BBC can't win ..
The BBC acquired a reputation in the run-up to the referendum as being the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation. It seems that it has not entirely shaken off this reputation. :(

TheDaddy 20-08-2017 20:32
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35913450)
Are you aware of any neutral economists?
It's pretty hard to get economists to agree on anything, afterwards though their all experts

1andrew1 20-08-2017 23:20
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35913460)
It's pretty hard to get economists to agree on anything, afterwards though their all experts
In lots of areas, they may broadly agree but it's best not to depend on just one forecast. You can get consensus forecasts which look at multiple economists' forecasts and you can strike off the extreme forecasts at either end of the spectrum.

jonbxx 21-08-2017 09:24
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Patrick Minford is a classic for pushing the zero tariff approach to Brexit. he admitted that UK industry would virtually disappear if we went down this route but it was a still a good idea. Mind you, this is the same respected academic who said UKs GDP would drop by 20% with the introduction of the minimum wage.

Feel free to ignore this on reading who the authors are but here's a review of Economists for Brexits models and the flaws within - http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpo...ws-of-gravity/

This is a similar situation to climate change and vaccines - the vast majority of experts predict one outcome while a minority predict another. If the minority prediction fits peoples vision, then they are the only experts worth listening to

papa smurf 24-08-2017 15:34
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Germany shifts 50,000 gold bars overseas back to Frankfurt amid Eurozone collapse fears

hitler's gold the gift that keeps on giving ;)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...inance-economy

Qtx 24-08-2017 15:46
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35913893)
Germany shifts 50,000 gold bars overseas back to Frankfurt amid Eurozone collapse fears

Quote:
Should Germany face an economic emergency, the precious metal can be converted into pounds or dollars.
That must hurt them even more, knowing that our currency is still considered one of the two solid ones.

Can I say I loved the comments in the article about some of the gold bar being ex-teeth, or do you get reported to the police for a hate crime these days? So confusing having to second think if anyone might get offended by taking a comment the wrong way :P

1andrew1 24-08-2017 22:09
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Pound to euro exchange rate: Brexit fears see sterling slump to eight-year low
Sterling slumped to an eight-year low against the euro on Wednesday, which experts put down to Brexit uncertainty and stronger than expected growth in the eurozone economy.
The pound was down 0.5 per cent to 1.083 versus the euro as the London market closed, hitting its lowest level since October 2009...
Southampton airport had the worst exchange rate where customers were offered just 0.872 euros to £1. For every £1,000, travellers would get just 872 euros.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/p...-a3618891.html

Hopefully the £ will rise a bit after the Conservative Party Conference. The rumours are that Boris who has been extremely quiet of late will make a leadership challenge. This is damaging an already-weak £ taking it back to levels only seen during the Financial Crisis. :(

OLD BOY 25-08-2017 09:18
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35913960)
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/p...-a3618891.html

Hopefully the £ will rise a bit after the Conservative Party Conference. The rumours are that Boris who has been extremely quiet of late will make a leadership challenge. This is damaging an already-weak £ taking it back to levels only seen during the Financial Crisis. :(
No worries, Andrew. I'm sure that Theresa will continue to reign supreme.

Chris 25-08-2017 09:58
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
As a B&B owner with a high proportion of foreign visitors, I am in effect an exporter of services, and I can tell you that the currency situation is doing no harm at all to those who export more than they import. Exporting is the future and once we're free of the Customs Union and able to make reciprocal deals with the whole world rather than just the EU, those who can export are going to do very nicely indeed, as are those who are able to exploit the relative expense of imported goods by manufacturing domestically at a more competitive price.

OLD BOY 25-08-2017 16:55
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35913989)
As a B&B owner with a high proportion of foreign visitors, I am in effect an exporter of services, and I can tell you that the currency situation is doing no harm at all to those who export more than they import. Exporting is the future and once we're free of the Customs Union and able to make reciprocal deals with the whole world rather than just the EU, those who can export are going to do very nicely indeed, as are those who are able to exploit the relative expense of imported goods by manufacturing domestically at a more competitive price.
I know! Remainders are talking as if the fall in the value of the pound is a bad thing, whereas it's the best thing that could have happened for our exporters.

The pound was over-valued before anyway, and this is no more than a long awaited correction.

Osem 26-08-2017 12:00
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
If the UK is to export more then the value of Sterling is key to that and the higher it is the harder that gets. The low pound is also making the UK less appealing to EU migrants and that, IMHO, is a big factor in the latest migration stats.

OLD BOY 26-08-2017 17:49
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35914091)
If the UK is to export more then the value of Sterling is key to that and the higher it is the harder that gets. The low pound is also making the UK less appealing to EU migrants and that, IMHO, is a big factor in the latest migration stats.
Yes, it's all good in my book. I really don't know what the remainers are afraid of. Although some can't deal with change very well, which is understandable, I suppose.

I see so many opportunities opening up for us with Brexit. I really do think the remainers will be pleasantly surprised when they see the results.

Osem 26-08-2017 18:08
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35914126)
Yes, it's all good in my book. I really don't know what the remainers are afraid of. Although some can't deal with change very well, which is understandable, I suppose.

I see so many opportunities opening up for us with Brexit. I really do think the remainers will be pleasantly surprised when they see the results.
Anyone would think there was no productive life outside the EU and no possibility of mutually beneficial relationships between us and them after Brexit. It's really quite bizarre how some people are evidently so wedded to the idea of being part of a club committed to achieving a single European state that they'd peddle all the nonsense about the those wanting to leave hating Europeans blah blah blah. I don't know anyone who hates Europe but I do know plenty of people who hate what the EU has become and where it's headed. There's plenty more who feel the same within the EU too just in case anyone hadn't noticed. The trouble is the Eurocrats don't want to accept it and that's what's led us here.

Ignitionnet 27-08-2017 22:35
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35914032)
I know! Remainders are talking as if the fall in the value of the pound is a bad thing, whereas it's the best thing that could have happened for our exporters.

The pound was over-valued before anyway, and this is no more than a long awaited correction.
True, though so far more than balanced by a drop in consumption and investment.

See how it settles in the longer run. So far this has been the most ineffective devaluation in terms of impact on exports since at least the 70s. Most of what we export is, for obvious reasons, not all that price sensitive.

Our export market has changed dramatically. We are world leaders in a few fields, those fields aren't that dependent on costs. Items that are price-sensitive are produced in countries where the cost of said production is far lower than anything a Sterling devaluation could allow us to reach.

Once inflation has run its course it'll be worth watching what happens.

---------- Post added at 22:35 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35913989)
As a B&B owner with a high proportion of foreign visitors, I am in effect an exporter of services, and I can tell you that the currency situation is doing no harm at all to those who export more than they import. Exporting is the future and once we're free of the Customs Union and able to make reciprocal deals with the whole world rather than just the EU, those who can export are going to do very nicely indeed, as are those who are able to exploit the relative expense of imported goods by manufacturing domestically at a more competitive price.
I'm fairly sure the Customs Union doesn't impact on export of services outside of the European Union, the Common External Tariff is on goods, and trade deals that include services are extremely rare and usually come in things like the EU, NAFTA, ASEAN, etc, rather than bilateral deals. These carry a whole bunch of things with them that may prove unpalatable to those concerned about total 'sovereignty' whatever that is.

About 80% of our economy and an even higher proportion of exports are services.

Even free trade agreements on goods aren't trivial. We have FTAs with about 65% of the world economy right now. That's not going to be trivial to replace in a way that doesn't cause some enormous problems for some sectors of our economy. I've read the stuff about unilaterally declaring zero tariffs. It'd be absolutely insane.

You make a valid point about manufacturing finished goods domestically, however we aren't exactly raw material rich as a nation and factory gate inflation has been a big issue that's undone a fair amount of the benefits of the devaluation.

It's been good for my employer though for sure - even with the pay rise they gave me I'm still 15% cheaper than I was a bit over a year ago ;)

ianch99 28-08-2017 10:50
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35914215)
It's been good for my employer though for sure - even with the pay rise they gave me I'm still 15% cheaper than I was a bit over a year ago ;)
That may well be true but you are still a lot more expensive that your potential colleagues in China and India ... :(

Hugh 28-08-2017 11:53
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35914239)
That may well be true but you are still a lot more expensive that your potential colleagues in China and India ... :(
But then there is the Culture differences - I have worked with/opened up outsourcing in India, China, and Vietnam, and the challenge with the Chinese and Indian outsourced resource is "face"; they don't want to contradict you/let you know things aren't going well, so you have to have lots of resources involved in checking/planning/rechecking.

That's why most companies don't outsource their Project Managers/Solution Architects/Network Engineers/Business Analysts - keep the management/oversight in the country, coding outside (and there are still issues with that model).

pip08456 28-08-2017 18:00
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35914248)
But then there is the Culture differences - I have worked with/opened up outsourcing in India, China, and Vietnam, and the challenge with the Chinese and Indian outsourced resource is "face"; they don't want to contradict you/let you know things aren't going well, so you have to have lots of resources involved in checking/planning/rechecking.

That's why most companies don't outsource their Project Managers/Solution Architects/Network Engineers/Business Analysts - keep the management/oversight in the country, coding outside (and there are still issues with that model).
And let them deal with customers problems.

Ignitionnet 28-08-2017 20:33
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35914239)
That may well be true but you are still a lot more expensive that your potential colleagues in China and India ... :(
Indeed I am. Just as well there's no viable replacement for me there at this time :)

1andrew1 28-08-2017 20:41
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Interesting move by the Labour Party
Quote:
Brexit: Labour wants UK to stay in EU single market during transition period
In a dramatic policy shift, Labour is pledging to continue UK membership of the EU single market and the customs union during a transitional period following Brexit in March 2019.
The party's shadow Brexit secretary, Sir Keir Starmer, has also not ruled out negotiating the possibility of a new single market and customs arrangement on a permanent basis.
Effectively, a Labour government would try to keep Britain inside an economic union while leaving the political union with the European Union.
http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-lab...eriod-11008071

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

Why has Corbyn changed his mind? One reason is good old-fashioned poitics
Quote:
“It’s good news but I don’t think for one minute Jeremy Corbyn believes it,” said Anna Soubry, former Tory business minister. “This is a tactical move to stuff the government.” Privately, pro-European Labour MPs agree.
Labour wants to push Mrs May into accepting a transitional deal that will force Tory Eurosceptics to swallow, at least for a few years, most of the things they dislike about the EU: budget contributions, European Court jurisdiction, and free movement.
https://www.ft.com/content/2f39d70a-...2-e46f43c5825d

pip08456 28-08-2017 20:59
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35914324)
Interesting move by the Labour Party

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-lab...eriod-11008071

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

Why has Corbyn changed his mind? One reason is good old-fashioned poitics

https://www.ft.com/content/2f39d70a-...2-e46f43c5825d
You think it's good politics to put forward something that cannot be delivered?

The sooner that people realise that Article 50 has been triggered so after the 2 yrs has expired there will be no "halfway house", no single market etc. the sooner the better.

We will be out of the EU, out of the single market and rid of them. There may well be a transisional period agreed but we will be out of it.

Mick 28-08-2017 21:04
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35914324)
Interesting move by the Labour Party

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-lab...eriod-11008071

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

Why has Corbyn changed his mind? One reason is good old-fashioned poitics

https://www.ft.com/content/2f39d70a-...2-e46f43c5825d
You call it an "Interesting move" !

I call it a U-Turn.

Not a good one for millions of former UKIP voters, who gambled and opted for the Labour Party in June's Election just gone, because they indicated they were for a hard brexit.

Mr K 28-08-2017 21:36
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35914332)
You call it an "Interesting move" !

I call it a U-Turn.

Not a good one for millions of former UKIP voters, who gambled and opted for the Labour Party in June's Election just gone, because they indicated they were for a hard brexit.
It might however attract the more sensible Tories/LibDems who voted to Remain or want a soft Brexit. There are many Tory MPs who would support Labour on this. It would only take a few to bring this excuse for a Govt. down.

Mick 28-08-2017 22:20
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35914336)
It would only take a few to bring this excuse for a Govt. down.
And get a Venezuelan, socialist style government with Corbyn?

No thanks.

1andrew1 28-08-2017 22:51
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35914336)
It might however attract the more sensible Tories/LibDems who voted to Remain or want a soft Brexit. There are many Tory MPs who would support Labour on this. It would only take a few to bring this excuse for a Govt. down.
I'm not sure that it will bring the Government down but it may lead to a different approach to Brexit from Theresa May.
Quote:
Anna Soubry, Conservative MP for Broxtowe, said that Labour’s move would terrify some of her colleagues. “If you were a hard Brexiteer you would be very, very nervous because the arguments are shifting. You can see that your hard Brexit is going down the pan.” The former business minister downplayed the odds that she would vote against the government, however.
Another leading Tory Remainer said: “There’s no doubt this gives us leverage. The parliamentary consensus is moving and May’s best hope is to move too.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...exit-0xl09rn5j

papa smurf 29-08-2017 08:41
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35914345)
I'm not sure that it will bring the Government down but it may lead to a different approach to Brexit from Theresa May.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...exit-0xl09rn5j
anna soubry the drunken old soak says lots of things it's the booze talking :shocked:

OLD BOY 29-08-2017 08:43
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35914324)
Interesting move by the Labour Party

http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-lab...eriod-11008071

---------- Post added at 20:41 ---------- Previous post was at 20:36 ----------

Why has Corbyn changed his mind? One reason is good old-fashioned poitics

https://www.ft.com/content/2f39d70a-...2-e46f43c5825d
This really does show the muddled thinking that is going on in the Labour Party under Corbyn.

How on Earth do they expect Brexit to work with a transitional period which keeps us in the customs union and the common market which would mean we could not implement the new trade deals on which we will rely outside of the EU?

This just goes to show how screwed we would be under the Corbynistas.

jonbxx 29-08-2017 10:37
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Labour managed to do an amazing thing, they convinced remain supporters they were leavers and leave supporters they were remain.

Ignitionnet 29-08-2017 10:59
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35914359)
This really does show the muddled thinking that is going on in the Labour Party under Corbyn.

How on Earth do they expect Brexit to work with a transitional period which keeps us in the customs union and the common market which would mean we could not implement the new trade deals on which we will rely outside of the EU?

This just goes to show how screwed we would be under the Corbynistas.
I presume they've been attending the same school of wishful thinking the Conservatives have with their thinking that the EU would be fine with our leaving the EEA and CU while simultaneously continuing to have the benefits of both.

The same one that supplies a train of thought tying the length of any UK transition to the UK's election cycle rather than the needs of UK businesses.

Neither party is especially bothered with negotiation with the European Union or the welfare of our economy and businesses here, both care far more about negotiation with the UK electorate and, especially, media.

I'm just reading comments from a former Vote Leave staffer indicating that, in his opinion, Vote Leave did not advocate leaving the EEA and their literature made a point of making examples of Iceland and Switzerland.

There was also mention of being in a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey. Iceland is an EEA nation, Turkey is mostly within the Customs Union.

Individuals associated with the campaign advocated as such, the campaign as a whole did not.

Obviously this is the same campaign that was running from the 350 million bus, though.

I suppose it's good the debate is happening however I fully imagine a destructive cliff-edge end to the negotiations. The UK has amazing people but has so far utterly failed to achieve anything notable, and the EU has made if a point of being transparent, but in turn weaponised bureaucracy.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35914332)
Not a good one for millions of former UKIP voters, who gambled and opted for the Labour Party in June's Election just gone, because they indicated they were for a hard brexit.
There weren't millions. Transfers from UKIP to Labour comprised about 5% of the total Labour vote. They mostly went to the Tories as they were far less equivocal.

There was a small shift balancing that to an extent of Tories desiring EEA / EFTA membership moving from Conservative to Labour.

I'm working at the moment but might find the graph showing the movements later.

Mick 29-08-2017 11:19
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35914358)
anna soubry the drunken old soak says lots of things it's the booze talking :shocked:
Lol. Have you seen the news today. I've seen references to Groundhog Day, so it's not just a trait that exists in this thread. :erm: :D

heero_yuy 29-08-2017 11:23
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35914374)
Labour managed to do an amazing thing, they convinced remain supporters they were leavers and leave supporters they were remain.
And in doing so could alienate both factions when the lies are exposed.

denphone 29-08-2017 11:27
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35914382)
And in doing so could alienate both factions when the lies are exposed.
The trouble is politicians of all colours lie so much now not many actually believe them anymore..

heero_yuy 29-08-2017 11:32
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35914383)
The trouble is politicians of all colours lie so much now not many actually believe them anymore..
Yep, goes back to that old joke:

"How can you tell a politician's lying?"
"His lips are moving"

Osem 29-08-2017 13:03
Re: Brexit: Article 50 Has Been Triggered !
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 35914374)
Labour managed to do an amazing thing, they convinced remain supporters they were leavers and leave supporters they were remain.
They've never convinced me about anything except that they can't be trusted - the last election and what has happened since is further proof of that if any were needed.

https://order-order.com/2017/08/29/m...ng-referendum/

John McDonnell claiming that what his party is suggesting now is not respecting the referendum. Well it's what he was saying before the last election anyway... :rolleyes:


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