Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A little birdie tells me there might be a statement from Virgin Media today. Might not be around later to comment further, previous commitments mean I'm away from station for most of today.

In the meantime see how BT rewards unethical behaviour: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...vingstone_ceo/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hi PhormUKPRteam,

You were wrong about the weather over the weekend. No rain, just some snow.

Nothing to say at the moment? You must have a LOT of time on your hands if you scan spend it hanging about in a forum doing nothing.

hope you have a good day and the weather is not too bad in your part of the world.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok its time to take this to the next level. Writing to MPs and MEPs is all good and well, and it was important that we did it, but nothing will really start happening until there is an investigation by the police. I am more than happy to write an official letter to the Computer Crime Unit of the Metropolitan police but am happy to admit that letter writing is not my forte.

If anyone wants to help me draft the letter then I am happy to send it registered post to them. That way if they still refuse to issue a Crime Reference Number we can complain to the Police Complaints Commission.

If you have some time and the inclination to help me write it then you can send me a private message here on cable forum or just respond in the forum and we can work on it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Phorm has admitted that it deleted key factual parts of the Wikipedia article about the huge controversy fired by its advertising profiling deals with BT, Virgin Media and Carphone Warehouse...."

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...ors_wikipedia/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oops my bad. Jamie beat me to it on the article re Wikipedia. Good going that man!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While my bath is being drawn and my mug of tea is still half full I'm not going anywhere :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was without tea all morning until Mr Sainsbury's delivered my shopping a few mins ago. Normal service will now be resumed :)

Keep up the great work people.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It {BT} said that the aim of the trial was to validate that users were unaware of the presence of the tracking system.

Says it all... I'm sure that BT would like users to be unaware.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think this extract (Phorms view of the BT trial) from that article says it all...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Spot on, but the thing was they got rumbled in the trials last year and lied to customers about it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would so love to be "unaware" of BT you wouldn't believe it. If BT had never existed then my professional life would have been so much easier, my blood pressure so much lower and I would have had enough time to finish the other projects on which I was engaged.

As it is, many home users are unaware of what goes on involving their broadband - it just works and that's that. Part of our job here is to tell them what's happening so they become a lot more aware of BT's unethical and (IMHO) illegal conduct (if they are BT customers) and of what Phorm means for them if they are VM and TalkTalk customers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wonder if he's off to Phorm too ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The above is from the comments on the previously linked ElReg Wiki article.

I think the word "Zing!" applies here.
Well done Chris Page...straight for the throat:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is a good idea to bring awareness of phorm to many ppl on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpwlBhDKOvs

was originally posted on ISPreview many thanks to Mel for the link..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Finally getting somewhere on the iii investment site. Some of those who invested in Phorm seem to be waking up to just what a bad idea it is and reconsidering their investment :cleader:

Lets keep it up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good to see they might be human after all I had almost given up hope on them being part of the human race. On another note I moved from VM to Aquiss and so far my speeds have been much better even on a central that was red and full I was not having any speed problems unlike my last months with vm where at peak times I would slow to below 2meg.

I am no phorm phree with Aquiss.net who are going to stay phorm phree.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm spin update at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...ors_wikipedia/

"Hi Chris,

We let you know yesterday that we had proposed amendments to the Phorm entry on Wikipedia – there were several factual inaccuracies that were pointed out to us. Having reviewed our suggested changes with hindsight, we accept that we were a little over zealous in our efforts to make those corrections and that we erroneously removed some relevant items in the editing process. These were quickly reinstated by Wikipedia’s editors. We will endeavour to make sure that this does not happen in the future."

Come on! That's just saying someone has been rather unprofessional and been caught out.

Strike another point for how to fail...

The Captain has duties to perform. Back tomorrow. Keep up the good work my friends!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just an amusing little anecdote here for you all. I was just spell checking my article after finishing the section on Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977 when I noticed the recommended spelling for Phorm's COO (Virasb Vahidi) from my spell checker was "Virus".

I hope you all find that as amusing and apt as I do :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

LOL how apt indeed. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My guess on it will be

We are going to do it.
You will bloody well like it.
There is NO opt out.


In other words STUFF YOU

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm forced (on past behaviour by VM) to agree with you:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It looks like it is going to cost me more than I thought (both time and money) to switch BB suppliers. Before the celebrations start at VM though - I'm waiting for your statement and if I don't like it I will immediately cancel all your other services followed ASAP by BB.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Let's wait and see. No jumping to conclusions either way here.

Must dash, train's on time for a change!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another blog on the NY Times website about Phorm. I deeply suspect a few of the commenters are either investors trying to talk up Phorm or maybe employees. Dont they have an office in New York?

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0...rasite-cookie/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does it follow therefore that it'll be over-hyped, three months later than expected and lead to more frustration than it was designed to avoid?

:angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"...over-hyped..." Yes.
"...three months later than expected..." Almost.
"...more frustration..." Of course, what else would you expect? :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone else noticed this thread is rapidly approaching 3000 posts? Might be worth printing the entire thread and sending it directly to Sir Richard's office by courier, marked for Sir Richard's (or Sir Dick as he might well become known if he doesn't save his brand soon) attention of course.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats good :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The register has lots of info on Phorm


http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think you will find most of us have read all of those articles and many other articles elsewhere. However, welcome to the thread.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

True Alexander but Elreg has now put them easy to return to for rechecking info :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, there are so many articles all over the place, I am not sure I've read them all:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mechanism of Phorm tracking system revealed:
http://www.heise-online.co.uk/securi...--/news/110497

If I read a quick look of the white paper correctly, not allowing or blocking cookies from webwise.net will mean you get a new identifier for every website (see item 29).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting what you see when viewing the youtube links watch this one with interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Mq-...eature=related

he or they posted that 2 weeks ago and on it he says it goes live in 2 weeks on every isp lol so i take it that vm now has this in place and might have already switched it on could anyone confirm this or not from a vm employee pov?, i also like it when he sniggers and says you'll not be able to miss this fact it is deployed (no sh*t sherlock).

Is it already live i wonder because since middle of last week i am getting big ping spikes in online gaming but it isnt a latency issue ;(.

Another classic of the Phorm Pr clips was the one where they defended there past and said the user knew what they were downloading i beg to differ if you ever saw one of there poxy popups advertising there jank wether or not you pressed no still resulted in you being infected with there crap untill you formatted to be completeley rid of it, amount of machines i had to fix infected with there jank rootkit was a good few and these were normal users who had no idea how it got on there.

Thought i never saw it infect anyone for a while only because they shut up shop to develop this bigger jank.

Can anyone from vm verify if this is live on vm already?.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hehehe that elreg page has been there for over a month :)

Maybe I am just obsessed and read -everything- I can find lol

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: No.32

--------------------
now talking directly to the VM lawyers, thats novel,he gives some really interesting information.

does that means everyone might consider moving over to the business line if you cant get good DSL?

remember though, thats a totally different contract compared to your consumer T&C and you loose many consumer benefits so be careful out there... and know what your giving up.

it might be werth looking for the new mobile consumer offerings before (or as well as) the business BB.

i did say a while back they would be mad to include the cable business lines in the Phorm trial, and it seems the layers are thinking the same.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04..._ico/comments/
"
By Steve
Posted Tuesday 8th April 2008 08:58 GMT
Morning all,
-
VM
I've got a Virgin Media business account, and sort out PCs for several neighbours with Virgin residential lines.

I actually spoke to VM's lawyers about Phorm last Friday. After the public drubbing BT got, they seem very anxious to be seen to be doing the right thing.

What I got from the call was:
1) They are still looking at whether or not to implement
2) No trial would be carried out without prior notification
3) They're watching with interest what is happening with regard BT and Phorm
4) They're aware (and concerned) about Phorm's history
5) They aren't planning to implement it on business accounts (though as these pass in part over domestic network I can't see that makes any difference).

Try calling them, voice your opinions... if nothing else it's their time and call cost!

-
General stuff
That the ICO can see no breach of the DPA isn't a shock, but we should probably be writing en masse to the home secretary to ask them to investigate the breach of law vis-a-vis RIPA.

Do it by pen and paper and cc it to your local MP. If you don't get a reply, push it up the scale with a few newspapers, watchdog etc. "Home Secretary fails to look into illegal interception" is just one conceivable headline.

I'm typing my letter this morning. Anyone else joining in?
-
Paris - because even she can understand what's going on"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They have twigged that you post on here. You shouldn't have gone in undercover using the neutral username of 'stazi phormistan'.;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I got a similar letter from him. He also suggests that as many people as possible make a formal complaint to the Information Commission.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If true that is very very worrying. Best i start my move to another isp asap

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the body language in those tubes are very telling .....

a new entry from charles just now
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...ade_phorm.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats a rehash and summary of the paper published a few days ago.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quote: "Use Safari to evade Phorm"

Yay!! :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another reason for Mac users to be smug... ;)

I wonder if Opera is out of the 'popular' category?

[edit]

Not according to this thread...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

smug indeed, ill just use my Amiga browsers in the emulators and be happy they are unlikely to be tracked ;) or BeOS or QNX or !!!!... for that matter....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ooh I'll have start surfing on me Wii or DS :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks to everyone who has contacted me since Sunday with suggestions about http://www.inphormationdesk.org and apologies for not replying directly yet - I will soon, but the day job has to be done as well.

I have added another Q&A item to the home page of

What is new about it? Retailers and companies like Google already collect information about you when you visit their websites. The difference with Phorm is that with a few exceptions it intercepts and reads everything you do in every website you visit, and processes this information to build a total picture of you.

Please can I have any suggestions to improve accuracy, clarity and impact.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yep that works too.

infact this Phorm might be the very best thing to finally bring the mobile browsing to the masses.

we are seeing a lot of new 11N and Wimax mobile and mini kit coming to market real soon, all we need now is the wide spread wireless networks..

theres got to be some PR marketing in that lot, and we might not mind these standard delivery adverts for a short time, while we decide what works for us as the UK populas.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, the article is really coming together now. I plan to have the first draft complete by Friday afternoon at which point I would appreciate as many people as possible to proof read it. I am sure you can understand it gets difficult to proof read such a long document yourself, so all help appreciated.

I am not an English Language major so I am happy to accept comments regarding grammar too (not to mention typos and spelling errors).

The weekend will consist of me refining the paper according to the feedback I receive. Then on Monday or Tuesday it will be published on a 10mbit fibre connection and a digg article will be submitted. It is important to get as many people to digg the article as possible in order to get the story onto the front page and raise awareness in the public domain.

The paper will be Creative Commons so anyone is welcome to post a copy of it anywhere they see fit; the more people who read it, hopefully the more people will start demanding action for the illegal trials in 2006/2007.

I will also be exploring any opportunities to have the paper published in journals/relevant offline sources so if any of you know any publishers or magazine editors who you think might be interested, please get in touch.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Certainly will.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

when compleate, you could put it on the http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page as well, thats all CC and they have masses of bandwidth.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh another thing, I seem to be having a problem locating an "official" source to reference the Scottish version of the Computer Misuse Act. I have relied on the information from the UKCrypto mailing list for my citation but I would prefer to link to an official government source for the reference (which is why it is currently not referenced).

If anyone can find the Scottish version of the Act please link to it in this thread.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:30 ----------

Now for my dinner :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This any good?

It's a section concerning Scotland in the main Act. Maybe there isn't a completely separate Act for Scotland?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Any use?

http://www.davros.org/legal/cma.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nope, I already read that. Section 3 of the Scottish Act is apparently very different to the England/Wales version. I have cited the entire section which I found on ukcrypto so if you have a read of the paper you can see the differences.

Thanks anyway

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

not found a direct link yet but i just found this

"the Uk statute law database" should be good for many things..

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/legResu...=1&SortAlpha=0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ahha yes davros has the relevant section, I can reference to that, thanks very much.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I never tried to hide that fact. Am I bovvered? :LOL:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't know if this is of any use, but while looking for the Scottish Computer Misuse I found this on the Strathclyde police site.

http://www.strathclyde.police.uk/ind...D=625&docID=-1

It gives 3 laws they use involving computer crime.

I'll keep digging for more info

Edit I've found that the Civic Government act is the Scottish alternative to the Obscene Publications Act

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.apple.com/safari/
Safari for windows is also an option

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

a direct reference off that other "the Uk statute law database" url i posted above. alexander.

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content...&filesize=5629

13.
Proceedings in Scotland.
— (1) A sheriff shall have jurisdiction in respect of an offence under section 1 or 2 above if—
...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah thats just the same info thats on OPSI.

The reference I am specifically looking for is the differences between s3 of the Scotland version and England version, but I have found the relevant legislation which made the ammendments I think. I will post it in a sec.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know this isn't entirely related, but I found some info on the 3 strikes business that the BPI were trying to force UK ISP's to get involved with

http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2008/04...-three-strikes

Seems the EU have turned the tables just prior to the vote tomorrow.

I wonder if Phorm could be considered an interruption of internet service, and it certainly is a breach of civil liberties.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here we go, section 36 of the Police and Justice Act 2006

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006..._20060048_en_7

It changes section 3 of Computer Misuse Act (currently only updated in Scottish law)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure but maybe this might help not had time to check all links http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...e-in-scotland/

http://www.england-legislation.hmso...._20070434_en_1

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to Richard Clayton, Phorm's intercept software contains a browser white-list, and Safari isn't on it (IE and Firefox are). Apparently, this is because Phorm have had problems getting Safari to return the hijacked UID-containing site cookie that is used to serve the targeted ad - due to Safari's default privacy policy regarding cookie handling. As a result, when the Phorm software reads the browser ID string, it abandons the intercept process and just forwards the request to the proper IP address (i.e. the site you're trying to visit). Result!!

I don't know whether Opera is on the white list or not. I suspect that list is closely-guarded...

Now what I'd like to know is: if I'm using Safari and Phorm's spyware goes live on the VM network, will I be presented with the opt-in/opt-out page before being allowed to continue browsing, or will it never rear it's ugly head on my system because they know they can't manipulate my browser?

If the answer is yes, how will it hope to store my choice (yes/no) in the form of a cookie on a browser that doesn't accept their cookies (and consequently, will I see the same damn opt-in/opt-out windows every time I launch by browser).

If the answer is no, how will I know that the system has gone live, and how will VM be able to claim that I have agreed to the new T&C's?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander,i like that ;)

37 Making, supplying or obtaining articles for use in computer misuse offences
After section 3 of the 1990 Act there is inserted—
“3A Making, supplying or obtaining articles for use in offence under section 1 or 3

(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he makes, adapts, supplies or offers to supply any article intending it to be used to commit, or to assist in the commission of, an offence under section 1 or 3.

(2) A person is guilty of an offence if he supplies or offers to supply any article believing that it is likely to be used to commit, or to assist in the commission of, an offence under section 1 or 3.

(3) A person is guilty of an offence if he obtains any article with a view to its being supplied for use to commit, or to assist in the commission of, an offence under section 1 or 3.

(4) In this section “article” includes any program or data held in electronic form.

(5) A person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a) on summary conviction in England and Wales, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both;

(b) on summary conviction in Scotland, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or to both;

(c) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or to a fine or to both.”

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have it now Florence (see previous post) but thanks anyway :)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:51 ----------

I was going to include that in my analysis in order to illustrate Phorm as being complicit but in reality, it would be difficult to prove that they knew BT was going to use the equipment in a way which contravened British law.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hmm so all you need to include it,is a reasonable way to prove the fact...
needs more heads thinking about that, but im sure it could be done.. anyone?

---------- Post added at 21:11 ---------- Previous post was at 20:59 ----------

hmm, in the case of a generic Deep packet inspection box, that seems perhaps right.

but given Phorm are loading this generic (assumed, because no ones said what the box make,model is and its reasonable to think its a cheap off the shelf box) kit with custom Phorm software, i wonder if they can get away with it then.

they are supposed have produced this patentable code from scratch and so they know full well what its capable of and phorm comissioned to do, and the phorm COO did say we can see all the web....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought I would put this in the record. The reason I do is because it involves a question about cookies that was raised to VM before the full extent of the cookie involvement was realised.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sent 02/04/2008 to VM as a complaint

I have been keeping a dozen or so friends, family and collegues, up to date with the Phorm scandal.

Although most are in a position to go quickly to Sky/ADSL, a couple are
tied to contracts that will mean they are likely to have to stay with Virgin Media for a few months (I've explained to them about the small print getting changed).

One did, however, ask a good question. "Can I still trust PC-Guard when
Virgin Media becomes a spyware company". Now I did explain that Virgin
Media were not officially becoming a spyware company, just entering into
partnership with one, but the question is still valid.

Will PC-Guard protect, for example, from tampering with the webwise
opt-out cookie? I suspect you will apply commercial pressure on the
suppliers of PC-Guard to ignore this?

Anyway, if you could take the time to answer this, on a day when you could be mopping up BT customers instead of going down with them, I would be grateful.

BTW - worried about RIPA? Have you or haven't you?

__________________________________________________ ____________________
Received from VM Webteam 7/4/2008 am


Blah ...

Thank you for your e-mail dated 2 April 2008 regarding Phorm.

At the moment we are still only in the early stages of discussion, there
is still a lot of work to do in evaluating various aspects of any
possible deployment. This includes how PC Guard and other Anti Virus
programs will work. (my emphasis)
You can be assured that PC Guard will continue to provide the same level
of protection as before.

In regards to RIPA, we believe the home office have said it is legal,
providing the user consents to it.
Details of the memo can be found here: http://cryptome.org/ho-phorm.htm

Before anything is released onto our network we will be making sure that
all our customers are informed, and how they can opt in or opt out,
whichever is decided and also that we are conforming to the Data
Protection Act, RIPA, OFCOM and our own strict guidelines are followed.

Thank you for contacting us.
If you have further queries regarding this matter or any other issue,
please use the link provided below:

www.virginmedia.com/contact

Blah ...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i don't follow their reasoning their if they accept the home office reasoning that if they have consent its ok they still would not be even thinking of doing this as the home office clearly said both us and the sites we visit have to give consent

even if we opt in they have no way of gaining consent of all the sites we visit

plus even if they get around that if i opt out mirroring my data even if they don't use it according to that home office thing would still leave them in it up to their necks as it would still be intercepted whether or not anything was done with the data

or am i being silly

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its nice that the
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/0...rasite-cookie/
admins are so vigilant and fair ;)

shame the beteBT cant be the same, ROTFL, took them long enough to come lock and clean out the (i assume)CF references to the law etc :)

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...D=16952&#16952
i wonder what they will remove, as if i couldnt guess...


now go and put that Phorm coo quote up on that bits.blogs.nytimes..,and all the other interesting facts we have collected ...

"25.
April 8th,
2008
5:29 pm
The commenters using the names Ken Harrison and Sandra Harwood above are posting from the same IP address.

Sandra Harwood and the person using the name Brad Wright both have e-mail addresses at the same obscure e-mail provider.

Readers are encouraged to evaluate their comments accordingly. Commenters are encouraged to disclose their affiliations when relevant.
— Posted by David F. Gallagher N.Y. Times "

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just noticed that there has been a bit of a scuffle with members from this site and the BT forum. The BT forum is now 'locked' for moderation.

We don't need this on a night when the Phorm Team have been sent to bed early, without supper, for getting caught with their hands in the Wiki jar. Tomorrow morning they will be having a larff.

We need to be working together against Phorm. We also all need to be going for any ISP that works with them, together.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly my point....

try telling that to PeterN and his
"
It's right to view other opinions and gather information but it is not right for non-BT customers to be posting and debating on the BT support forum.

Virgin Media have their own forum and it's easy enough to visit there if you want to know way their customers are saying and there are plenty of other places for general discussion on this or any subject so no-one is trying to censor or supress anything."

(their MB SW is naff use the url below if you like)

and then 30 minutes later you get censorship
"Locked thread while the moderators delete off-topic posts and those which break forum rules. It will be re-opened later today.
Mark Wilkin
Support Community Coordinator
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=17064#17064
we shall see whats left after they edit etc....


its fine though, as id imagine most betabt readers will have this thread open now due to the links i placed there earlyer, and they can always register here and talk without BT spying or removing their posts if they like..

BTW PeterN if your reading, this is not an official Virgin Media support forum.

its a totally independent forum with zero ties to VM other than some very good VM personel that chose to sign up on their own time and be a part of this site, helping people.

CF freely encurages ALL Broadband and non broadband customers to contribute in all things, as long as it helps users with their problems etc.

no doubt you shall still benefit from the CF members hard work and actions in the future regarding this end users v ISP/Phorm situation.

JFYI, VM dont have an official web forum, or even a simple web based news server front end,they use only limited antiquated news server support that most people dont use these days.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was talking to a friend today who I know frequents el Reg and he runs several websites so I asked him if he'd read about Phorm but he'd only seen the headlines so knew nothing about them. His reasoning for not reading was a lack of time (like most of us) and it wasn't about the ISP's he deals with, fair enough. I told him about Phorm and he was shocked, "I don't won't them near my sites" he said "glad I'm not with those ISP's either". He couldn't believe the ISP's would get into bed with a company using that system, "they must be stupid".

What this showed me is that the word has to be put out to people, let them know what's happening, even if they are competent techies they might not have seen this coming for being too busy...and hope we're not too late.

So in the morning I'll go through my address book then off to other forums I frequent. But first I need some sleep :dozey:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've worked in IT for 15 years and didn't know anything about Phorm until I read the Berners-Lee article on the BBC site a couple of weeks ago. (I don't get out much!).

I do think most techies know about it now. We need to keep posting to forums/blogs and writing to MP's and looking at the law etc. (not forgetting viral mail with all the links.)

But, we need to start thinking about putting leaflets under car windscreen wipers as well. We are NOT engaging with enough people.

There are local elections coming up. We seem to have a Government that does not recognise the law!! We have votes.

---

I think we should all have at least 1 or 2 support/complaint e-mails in as well, on a rolling cycle. This Phorm stuff could get expensive in staff time, but I am really concerned that it might infect my mobile phone.;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please contact me via email to discuss this as I have some ideas. There's an address on the about page of http://www.inphormationdesk.org

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Going down....

As at 09-Apr-2008 10:22:34
1,462.500 Price | Move -212.50 -12.69%

http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...%20B1WTNC4PHRM


Good Morning to the PhormUKPRteam

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I noticed this morning that there's an early day motion up on the parliament website that currently has 16 signatures - including a few I recognise too!

TARGETED ADVERTISING TECHNOLOGY

Foster, Don

That this House notes the recent developments in targeted internet advertising, particularly the emergence of the company Phorm; notes with concern the reported technical test conducted by BT last summer, where BT were accused of using Phorm to track customers without their knowledge or prior consent; believes that a system whereby consumers opt-in to Phorm would be far more transparent and appropriate than the opt-out system currently proposed by Phorm; and therefore calls on internet service providers to make Phorm an opt-in service.
----

Hi Phorm team!

Is anything being done about the flaws that have been found in the Phorm system that have major privacy implications? The one where someones webwise UID is made available to any site that wants it, and the one that allows a website to opt a person into being intercepted and tracked without their knowledge or consent.

Here's 2 quite serious implications, I'm sure there are lots more.
Sites can opt users in without their knowledge and then collaborate to track the user themselves.
Sites can publish the webwise UID's along with a list of pages accessed thereby exposing personal details along with possible 'sensitive' information.

Not really a gold standard, is it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Blimey, that has absolutely tanked again this morning. Have we missed something major happening? It's been fluctuating around 1700 for about 2 weeks, then suddenly drops another 200 points? Seems a bit odd to me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

\o/ local MP Lynne Jones signed it.

Although she's not my MP she was hugely supportive of a local campaign when they closed our hydrotherapy department. She answered my emails and letters quickly and has kept in touch since. which is more than can be said for my own MP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am trying to figure out why their stock has taken such a dive this morning. I can't find any significant new news which leads me to believe that maybe there is something big going to break today.

The EDM is from 2nd April so it is not new news and only has 16 signatures (which is pretty pathetic really, clearly we need to pressure our MPs more and using real letters not emails.)

It does make me smile to see them drop to 14.25 though I bet Morgan Stanley aren't too happy :) Their 20.00 per share deal to raise 32M GBP is currently 33(ish)% higher than the market value.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 ----------

I wonder what will happen when I publish my paper on Monday :)

---------- Post added at 12:14 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

I think next week we should all send letters to Morgan Stanley expressing our outrage that they intend to invest in an illegal technology :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm keeping my fingers crossed about this:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Could this have anything to do with the stock prices today?

Full article:
http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/...-independ.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice find :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all

I've just had a thought! Every one in concentrating on consent etc.

BUT I've just read Dr Richard Clayton white paper on how Phorm works, and I realised something (extract from the white paper).

"The Layer 7 switch will see that the request does not contain a Phorm "cookie" and will direct the request to a machine located within the ISP network that will pretend to be www.cnn.com and will return a "307" response which says, in effect, "you want that page over there". The page that will be directed to is webwise.net/bind/?<parameters>where the parameters record the original URL that was wanted."

The key is "will pretend to be www.cnn.com" (or obviously any other website you are surfing.

Would it not be illegal to pretend to be another company or person in the UK without that company/persons permission? Particularly for commercial gain?

Phishing is a prime example of impersonation of a company, so surely this is just another form of that?

Anybody know how I can find out if impersonating a company is illegal?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The ICO have amended their "green light" they gave on phorm last week.

the 1.2 version can be found here and a number of interesting changes

http://www.ico.gov.uk/Home/about_us/...e_and_oie.aspx

and a really intersting bit

Wonder if this is the reason for the hit on the share price :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, Fraud Act 2006 Section 2 ss1.a, ss1.b.i and ss5. Read all about it in my finished paper on Monday :)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:00 ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 ----------

Nice :) In essence that statement makes it clear that the BT trials of 2006/2007 were a breach of PECR (which I have stated in my paper). So now we need to start a letter campaign to the IC directly citing their own press release and demanding an investigation of the BT Trials in 2006/2007.

The tide has just turned in a dramatic way against Phorm and more importantly BT and we need to jump on our surf boards and ride this all the way to ICO. I will post a letter template this evening.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

cant remember if this bits the same as before

"A question has been raised by the some individuals about whether or not the Phorm products entails an unlawful interception of communications under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA). The Home Office is responsible for compliance with RIPA and Phorm has approached the office directly and had a written response. Some organisations have stressed an alternative view that the scanning of the content of websites by the ISP on route to the user will entail an interception of communication during transmission. This is a matter that the Home Office takes the lead on and the Commissioner will not be taking any further action."

but they are passing the buck to home office it seems

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That just means we can all write to the Secretary of State for Justice under the "advisement from the Information Commissioner" requesting an investigation of the BT Trials and future deployment of Phorm under RIPA. That will be template #2 then ;)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:07 ----------

Someone get this info posted on iii asap please. I would say it is definitely in the interests of investors to know that Phorm will be required to be Opt-In, which significantly devalues it as an investment. :)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:24 ---------- Previous post was at 13:21 ----------

Wow I am grinning from ear to ear :) Such a good day!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

lol sounds good to me as you said they did tell us it wasn't their problem ;) and the home office was where to go to deal with it

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Done it on iii.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It means a bit more than they think the system should be opt in. ICO are responsible for enforcing Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003 (PECR) so if Phorm was not explicitly opt-in in it's current form, ICO would have to intervene under PECR.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK - I was a bit rushed - I have added that bit as well now to the iii forum

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If ICO refuse to act now with regards to the 2006/2007 trials, we need to think about going to Europe. PECR is an EC Directive so if the IC is not enforcing it then it needs to be brought to the attention of our MEPs.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:52 ---------- Previous post was at 13:48 ----------

I have emailed Chris Williams at The Register as well to make sure he is aware of the changes :) Hopefully we will see another El Reg article before the end of the day.

I will be emailing the BBC News Room as well, I would suggest that as many people as possible should do the same.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I emailed Chris Williams about the changes earlier :)

I'll was also going to contact Darren Waters at the Beeb

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There seems quite a lot more public awareness of Phorm thanks to the efforts of quite a few regulars on here. So....

I wonder just how BT are going to entice their 10,000 trial users to take part. I would really like to be able to see the web page that will spin (whoops, sorry, explain) all of the benefits, enhanced anti-phising, high quality adverts etc etc.

I've spoken to a few people who are not tech-heads but do follow the news - the association seems to be BT-Spying-More Adverts... :)

Unfortunately there are also the 'well, so what'.

I also notice that the PM petition is growing at a nice rate, another 1000 signatures in the last four days.

Just off to write a few more letters...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK if you all go to http://www.bbc.co.uk/feedback/

You can send a message to the BBC Press Office. I just sent the following:

The ICO published an amended public statement regarding Phorm and OIX today here:

http://www.ico.gov.uk/Home/about_us/...e_and_oie.aspx

Paragraph 12 of the statement refers to consent requirements under PECR. This clearly indicates that the BT Trials of 2006/2007 were a breach of PECR as consent was not obtained.

Alexander Hanff
University of Cumbria (Student)

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 14:06 ----------

I just had an email back from Chris Williams saying he is already working on the story so we will look forward to that one :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the new advice from the IC still doesn't say anything about our data not being mirrored..

it could be taken to mean that we will have to opt-in to the data rape but our data will still go past the profiler even if it does have it's eyes shut by the default opt-out cookie

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What is needed is 10,000 BT users who aren't going to use the web during the trial period, it won't happen but an amusing thought (Kent storming into a rage - "what do you mean the logs are empty" :D)