Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Particularly when the decision has been taken already!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I understand your disappointment. There are many valid points, as you mention, that can and will never be addressed in an honest debate. Why is this you might ask? The answer is both simple and complex at the same time: simple in so far that there are truisms that are self evident to an unbiased observer and complex in that, as you point out, requires a lot of research, thought and patience.

You will not find many here who will honestly address the fundamental failings of the Brexit process because they too invested. Whether their denial is deliberate or not is hard to tell for some, easy to tell for others.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

Some were "whinging" for 40+ years while we were part of the EU/Common Market. 5 years is nothing ..

---------- Post added at 15:11 ---------- Previous post was at 15:08 ----------

I am not sure I understand the point of your remark? Are you seeking to denigrate someone's views if they have not "protested" as you describe it.

---------- Post added at 15:17 ---------- Previous post was at 15:11 ----------

But it is only irritating because you are uncomfortable/disagree with the points being raised.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I see you're still going on about numbers ianch99.

It is irrelevant - what matters is that in 2016, over 1 Million more people voted for something opposite to something else, if over 1 Million people is not a "super" majority for a decision on something, no numbers ever matter at all.

You cannot force people to vote and never should be forced to vote, what we have learned over the last few days is that supposed liberal ideals are being eradicated by supposed liberals.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quite. :dozey:

While I’m sure a few people on here will be taken in by your pomposity, I’m confident most will spot this little segue for what it is. We have only ever held one constitutional referendum in this country with even a quorum clause and it wasn’t the 1975 EU vote. As you’re such a fan of looking stuff up on the internet I’ll leave you to work out which one it was and why it, or anything like it, hasn’t been repeated.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are wrong. Corbyn would have led us out of the EU if he had become PM, despite the sentiments of the Labour Party as a whole. This makes your Corbyn point a moot one. I supported Corbyn's principled stance of honouring the referendum result, so what is your point about my attitude to democracy? Do I detect binary thinking on your part? If I am not wholly in a agreement with you, I must therefore be wholly against you? There are shades of grey in human affairs you know.

The clause in the policing bill that gives police the right to ban marches that might be noisy is an attack on the right to protest. Noisy doesn't equate to disruptive.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/ho...rities-1407386


We have a long tradition of allowing marches, even if they are down main city roads. Police and marchers have, through cooperation usually ensured that marches are orderly and enable alternative routes for traffic etc. The consensus is that democracy is worth a bit of managed disruption. The government seeing the power of anti-Iraq war protests and the support for Remain marches, i.e. over 1 million. has decided that street protest might be a threat to them. They are looking for excuses to ban the lot.

In my experience, all protests are noisy. The word 'noisy' needs removing from the bill, and any word meaning noisy, because in the wrong hands it could be misused. Imagine if Farage's protest marches had been banned beforehand because they might be noisy. We would never hear the end of it.

If, on the other hand, protests involve criminal damage, violence, and even disruption that has not been negotiated between police and organisers, then the perpetrators should accept the consequences. We already have laws in place to deal with that. No change needed. If I joined an Insulate Britain, protest and glued myself to the road, I must accept my punishment for disrupting lives beyond the agreed limits. Banning protests beforehand should only occur if the protesting group is known for consistent law-breaking, criminal damage and violence against people. e.g. most EDL and Britain First marches, some Insulate Britain protests and the fringes of Farage marches and BLM marches.

In my time, the only violent protest I have been on was the one that became The Battle of Grosvenor Square. It was a march to the US embassy protesting the Vietnam War. I, a 21-year old, was one of those. who slipped through the police cordons and got as far as the embassy gates. I ended up in hospital having been whacked on the head by a member of the US military police. I was responsible for what happened to me, not the MP defending US territory. Oh, to be young and stupid again! :angel:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It is rare for any vote to have the majority of the voting population support:shocked: ie over 50.1% of voters supporting it . Perhaps of those that vote yes but total that could no:erm:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Quorums are tricky because they incentivise disengagement as a campaign strategy and disenfranchise those who genuinely intend not to participate (because their lack of participation becomes de facto support for the status quo). Supermajorities are anti-democratic because they permit a long-standing, significant majority for a cause to nevertheless fail to deliver the settled view of that majority, for lack of the support of an arbitrary number of people. They’re also meaningless in the Westminster parliamentary system because any referendum can only ever be advisory, and ultimately any legally binding decision is always taken by 50% +1 of the votes in the House of Commons.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I won't rise to your childish baiting but thank you for proving my point.

---------- Post added at 22:07 ---------- Previous post was at 22:01 ----------

Supermajorities do not need to be an arithmetic number they are more varied. See here for examples: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Supermaj...upermajorities

What they do guard against is the ability of a vocal and well resourced minority hijacking decisions that impact large, nation-sized populations.

Here is a good example:



---------- Post added at 22:23 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

But Corbyn was conflicted and deceived many in the lead up the the referendum. He was always anti-Europe and always has been, mainly due to the limits placed on union powers by the EU. He saw the UK, out of the EU, as a place he could deliver his unfettered Socialist utopia. Although his naivety was evident to all except his inner circle of his "Jeremy, you are brilliant" cabal, he succeeded in hamstringing the Remain campaign which he was, on paper, a lead member. His lack of honesty, a common theme at the time, betrayed many of those he lead.

Your points about noisy protests is a good one. The police have said they already have the legal powers to address the issues this new bill pretends to address. The powers are clearly aimed to suppress legal opposition.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You are right, Corbyn had a long-held anti-EEC stance, mostly because he regarded it as a capitalist club,which it was. However, after Maastricht and the dawn of the EU, it became a different animal. Features, such as the Social Chapter, gradually morphed the EU into an increasingly socialistic enterprise with protection for worker rights, human rights and the environment.

When Corbyn saw that he could become leader of the Labour Party and thereby PM he developed a vision. His ambition was to become PM in an EU member state and to use that position to drive the reform of the EU from a socialist perspective. A first step would have been to create a socialist alliance of MEPs from all countries of the EU. This would have enough collective voting power to push through badly needed reforms, thus addressing Corbyn's criticisms of the EU. I know this because I took part in a discussion group led by him in 2014. He was passionate about this. It was natural that he would be in the Remain camp thereafter.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

All the above sounds entirely credible and I've no reason to disbelieve you. The issue I have is he just never seemed enthusiastic about the EU during the referendum campaign. That's why I saw him as being agnostic on the issue or potentially even a closet Leaver.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Thanks for this insight. You obviously know more from the inside than I do. I can only go on his visibly weak performance during the campaign and observations like this:

https://www.markpack.org.uk/153744/j...corbyn-brexit/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Corbyn spent more time campaigning for Remain up and down the country than any other individual. He was tireless. He was virtually ignored by the media until the last two weeks of campaigning when Cameron and Osborne threw the towel in. By then it was too late.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Vey interesting article which covers UK's changing defence priorities. These are the EU related elements. (As always, non-subscribers should Google the headline for access)

https://www.ft.com/content/76614c19-...0-c7951ba2ef68

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Or use 12 foot ladder… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU