Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Seems Prigozhin has an "excuse" for his actions.

https://kyivindependent.com/prigozhi...ns-to-respond/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

BREAKING: Aircraft belonging to Russia's presidency appears to be flying towards St Petersburg, as the Kremlin says Putin is still in Moscow. - Spectator Index.

---------- Post added at 13:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:00 ----------

LATEST: UK Government to hold Cobra meeting regarding the rapidly developing events in Russia.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Looks like much of his own military have been looking for a reason to back out of the war, and this is providing the perfect excuse - switch sides.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Qatar's foreign ministry says situation in Russia will have repercussions on global energy and food supplies.

---------- Post added at 13:15 ---------- Previous post was at 13:12 ----------

- One of Russia's presidential planes has left Moscow, as Kremlin claims Putin is still working in the capital.

- Russian Intelligence claims the attempted Coup has failed.

Does this mean the opposite is true to both these, asking for a friend? :D

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 13:15 ----------

- Latvia shuts its Border to Russian citizens fleeing in to their Country.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 13:18 ----------

- Wagner air defences are now engaging Russian attack helicopters in various regions of Russia.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

LOL - Ukrainian drone commander who fought Wagner forces in Bakhmut and Soledar appears to be thoroughly enjoying the insurrection unfolding across the border. Appears to be munching on three large tubs of popcorn. 😝

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1687609632

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I would agree Paul, however I don't think Prigozhin's excuse is genuine nor his starvation of ammunition true. I think he's been planning this for at least 2 months and has the resources to bring it to fruition. Once he had effectively taken Bahkmut he pulled his forces out back to Rostov on Don for R&R allegedly. It seems now it was for a different reason.

He also has very good contacts in the GUR which may provide tanks and artillery to him as well as the Spetznaz, something to watch out for going forward.

This posted by Devana (Ukrainian) today of a post by Prigozhin on a telegram channel.

https://twitter.com/DevanaUkraine/st...73119364583426

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

BREAKING: The Wagner Group has taken control of prisons in the Rostov region and is releasing prisoners in return for them joining the Wagner Group.

---------- Post added at 14:32 ---------- Previous post was at 14:27 ----------

- The European Union has activated its crisis response centre in response to Russia developments

- Belarus decries Wagner Group, suggesting it’s a gift to the West.

---------- Post added at 14:36 ---------- Previous post was at 14:32 ----------

- Putin signs in to law 30-day detentions for breaching Martial law.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

An interesting analysis in the Atlantic.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...n-coup/674517/

---------- Post added at 15:39 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------

Another interesting post on twitter

https://targum.video/v/2023/6/24/4cb...8b37d9d371e74/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

You gotta wonder if the ramifications of this might be worse for us than had it not happened. The kaleidoscope has been shaken.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

And another.

https://twitter.com/belwarriors/stat...01122467467276

---------- Post added at 15:50 ---------- Previous post was at 15:45 ----------

Putin staked everything on this, it now appears its going to be his nemisis.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

- Wagner Group now reportedly TWO Hours away from Moscow City.

- They’re meeting very little Russian military resistance, inexperienced & low morale conscripts.

- The Rate in which Wagner Group are progressing could see the fall of the Kremlin within hours. (I’m pinching myself while saying this) :eek:

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

You may be quite correct Mick, what still remains in the balance is what or how will this effect Ukraine. Prigoshin has stated the reasons for the invasion where false. Does this mean if he takes power Russian with withdraw its forces?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

BREAKING: Deputy secretary of Russia's security council Medvedev says that the whole world will be on brink of catastrophe if Russian nuclear weapons fall into the hands of 'bandits' - TASS Russian News Agency.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

He's not wrong but then maybe they should have thought of that before invading Ukraine. Putin's completely screwed this.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

So now Prigozhin is a bandit? What does Medvedev expect the world to do? Send in NATO troops to stabalise the apparent revolution????

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Who is controlling the weapons now ?

Putin may think he does, but he may find thats not quite the case if he tried to use them, especially on targets within Russia.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Just a thought no basis what so ever for saying it. A setup to get Putin of the hook and withdraw .

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Funnily enough this was posted on twitter earlier.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

He actually went out of his way to absolve Putin from blame

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Wagner Group leader halts advance on Moscow and agrees to de-escalate tensions | Russia Mutiny live

https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-r...dates-12541713

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Looks like it was all hot air in the end

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Wouldn’t be going up any flights of stairs in the near future.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Prigozhin had better be sleeping in a windowless bungalow for the foreseeable future.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I dont understand why he did what he did and pulled back? perhaps showing Putin he couldn't be pushed around?

Seems he could have taken the Kremlin down today, What a total waste of time and effort for nothing.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/worl...ost_type=share

On a totally unrelated note, anybody want to buy London Bridge?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

A bought off mercenary. There's a surprise.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Well that all fizzled out like a damp squib.
Dont really see how this can end well for Prigozhin, or his men.
Yesterday they were traitors, today they are forgiven ... ? by Putin ? I doubt that.

I wonder why he lost his nerve.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Dr Mike Martin, War Expert said a couple of hours ago, “this is a pause, it’s not an end.”

In Rostov he says people chanting “Wagner, Wagner”, as they were leaving, says this doesn’t feel over by a long shot.”

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I feel there was something not right about the whole event. If i was to wear my tin foil hat i would say it was a cleverly disguised publicity stunt.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

From sky news
Wagner mutiny may have been an 'orchestrated event', analyst says
The brief mutiny led by Wagner Group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin may have been an "orchestrated event", a global affairs analyst has said.

Michael Bociurkiw, a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, also told Sky News that the exile of Mr Prigozhin to Belarus may mask future "lethal" events.

He said: "We cannot dismiss the possibility that this was actually an orchestrated event by the Kremlin - perhaps to do some house cleaning of top officials, but also to test the loyalty of people in the military, of other officials."

Mr Bociurkiw went on: "I cannot see Mr Prigozhin riding off into the sunset on a tractor in Belarus, or digging potatoes there, or heading off into the jungle in Africa somewhere.

"It all ended a little too fast and a little too tidy for my liking."

He also warned that the Wagner leader remains extremely powerful.

"Mr Prigozhin commands a force that is bigger than the militaries of some medium-sized countries in Europe.

"And don't forget he commands an incredible amount of resources in Africa - it's said that in DRC alone their annual income from mining is about a billion dollars.

"The border with Belarus is very porous - it could still be used for another push against Ukraine, and with Mr Prigozhin there and his tactics, it's pretty lethal."

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

That’s nuts. Putin has been made to look weak. One minute there’s a mutiny and he’s threatening to execute Prigozhin, the next it’s all over and the perpetrator has been forgiven. These are not the actions of a powerful, ruthless man with a throne and a reputation to protect.

These batty theories all emanate from those who *still* despite the evidence of the last 16 months, think Russia is a superpower led by a master strategist. It is in fact a brittle kleptocracy in which the warlords surrounding the Tsar squabble for wealth and influence. Furthermore it’s a country wide open to invasion by anyone with an army.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Wonder how true this is?

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...9&d=1687774768

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Anything or nothing could be true right now. Wise heads have pointed out that claims about the supposed solution to the mutiny on Saturday (involving Lukashenko of Belarus) were only single-sourced. Nobody has seen or heard from Prigo since then and some reports say that elements of Wagner remain in control of certain military installations in or near Rostov on Don.

The situation in Russia is clear as mud, but this is actually classic Russian behaviour. Few people will stand up and take a side because they just want to go on collecting rent from whoever eventually triumphs.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

https://wapo.st/3pkmMIJ

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

A good in-depth analysys of Priozhin's video message.

http://zububrothers.com/2023/06/26/p...sts-the-truth/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Ukraine hit the Crimea bridge overnight. A span has been badly damged.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...5&d=1689585722

The span on the other side has also been damaged.

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...6&d=1689591208

The occupying authorities of Crimea report that nothing happened on the Crimean Bridge , but an "emergency event" occurred in the area of the 145th pillar from the Krasnodar region. Traffic on the bridge was stopped.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

It’s becoming clear Russia can’t defend the Kerch bridge. It doesn’t matter now if they can repair it in 6 weeks - Ukraine can just keep hitting it over and over again.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

The Russians have now moved one of the Black Sea ships to patrol the area presumably to protect it from future Naval drone attacks. Shutting the door...

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

No sunflower oil or wheat for the starving countries.....

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

An unlikely outcome.

What we’re likely to see in the coming days is Türkiye doing what it has warned Putin it would do, and start convoying Ukrainian grain shipments with Turkish naval vessels in attendance. In pulling out of the grain deal (which it already said it was going to do today regardless of any incident on the Kerch bridge) Putin has overplayed an extremely weak hand. If he doesn’t back-track, he will have given a Nato country a solid reason to become actively involved in events in a way that seriously complicates Russian operations in the Black Sea.

In the longer run, Crimea back under Ukrainian control is the best thing for world food security, because once it’s denied access to the Sevastopol naval base, Russia will have a very hard time interfering with any shipping in the western Black Sea.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Russia is not going to win their objective, similarly Ukraine seems unlikely to be able to repel Russia. This is just going to continue to cost money and lives.

Interestingly, Trump was interviewed recently. He famously said, previously, that he would stop this war in 24hrs.

He was asked how he would do this. I’m paraphrasing but it was basically this:

I know Zelenskyy and I know Putin even better. They need to stop fighting and talk.

I would say to Zelenskyy, you either talk or we will remove all support.

I would say to Putin, you either talk or I will give Zelenskyy everything he needs and more.

Seems, reasonable to me.

I know the stance has been total victory for Ukraine, return to pre-2014 borders, which has never been realistic.

The realistic solution is a win for both sides. Russia gets territory, to be negotiated.

In return for that, Ukraine gets NATO membership.

Russia sells the Win of re-Russianing the territory they get.

Ukraine gets the win of this not ever happening again, as a NATO member.

Trump at least has a plan that doesn’t involve Cluster Bombs. Perhaps others may consider it.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I’m curious - on what basis do you say it is unlikely Ukraine can repel Russia?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

What happens if they can't come to an agreement? There is no point in them talking, there isn't a common ground, so Trump will have to decide which deal to force on them. Putin isn't going to accept NATO membership for Ukraine and Ukraine isn't going to give up on their land.

Since America is already giving Ukraine quite a lot the quickest thing from Trump's point of view would be to make Ukraine sign on Russian terms.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

The cash value of US support for Ukraine is also being wildly overstated. It is derived from the notional value of old munitions and equipment that in many cases was reaching the end of its shelf life and would have to have been disassembled and disposed of before long. That’s not to say the US hasn’t sent a whole lot of stuff, it clearly has - but it is important to see that relatively, European support is at parity and could actually be greater. Trump simply can’t disarm Ukraine in the way he thinks he can. In fact, any American attempt to do so would be likely to result in an even more emphatic response from Eastern European states which have formerly been in the Russian sphere of influence, fully understand what a murderous place that is to be, and do not want any part of Ukraine left in it.

In fact, if Trump wants direct, boots-on-the-ground support for Ukraine by Poland and perhaps others, attempting to cut off US support is probably the likeliest way to achieve it.

Ukraine will settle for nothing less than complete restoration of its internationally recognised borders, as established in 1991, because it correctly sees Crimea and the Donbas as launch pads for future Russian interference.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

So, they talk…

Putin: We keep Crimea, you don’t join NATO.

Zelenskyy: We join NATO, we get Crimea back.

What does Trump do then?

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

As do all the other ex-Sov countries, who see themselves being next after Ukraine.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Only, empirical evidence so far.

Russia has not really advanced n the past several months, nor has Ukraine repelled significantly.

Armchair observation only.

---------- Post added at 23:03 ---------- Previous post was at 23:01 ----------

I think the point is to force them to an agreement.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

If things continue as they are, Ukraine will regain its former territory and eventually get NATO and EU membership.

If the two sides don't agree in 24 hours/240 days what next? Trump would look foolish for over-promising so may try and force Ukraine to yield as he has more influence over Ukraine than Russia.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

It’s not just cash though is it? If the US support it means something, if they don’t that also means something.

I don’t think Putin gives a flying f. About Europe. Militarily. Only NATO.

In regards to this thread, he hasn’t suggested that. Only to get a cease fire and talks.

Again, that was never suggested.

You’re coming up with answers to questions never asked.

You sure about that? I’m not sure you’re in charge!

Which is the very reason that NATO membership would have to part of any agreement, to ensure future interference is negated.

---------- Post added at 23:20 ---------- Previous post was at 23:16 ----------

No it won’t, but I’ll listen if you explain to me how that will happen.

Be interesting.

Trump can’t force Ukraine to do nothing. Trump never mentioned force at all.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Ukraine has taken more territory in 6 weeks than Russia did in as many months, and is presently destroying Russian hardware and personnel at a prodigious rate. They briefly attempted a rapid manoeuvre at the outset of their counter offensive, however as the US has denied them air power they actually can’t use much of the equipment or tactics they have been taught in Nato countries over the past several months. To draw a parallel, the US and allies air-raided Iraq for six weeks straight before invading. Ukraine rapidly realised it, too, would have to degrade Russian defences and without air power they have had to do that with stand-off weapons. These are principally US-suppled HIMARS artillery missiles, British Storm Shadow cruise missiles, and increasingly drone-spotted artillery and some of their own Soviet era air defence rockets repurposed for long range ground attack.

The modified S-200 missiles are an interesting point in their own right, as they have the range to hit targets inside Russia, and there is evidence they have been used to do that. Over the past 48 hours Ukraine have also assaulted both the Sevastopol naval base and the Kerch bridge using naval drones of their own design. The Ukrainians are using their own ingenuity to fill the capability gaps in their Nato weaponry (the gap mainly being long range strike capability). Some very clever people in Washington have been trying to deny Ukraine such ability because they feared escalation. All they have actually achieved is to prompt Ukraine to develop capabilities the US can’t control at all. Which further gives the lie to Trump’s fantasy that he could stop this by picking up the phone.

Ukraine (rightly) believes it is in an existential conflict and most East European states agree and see themselves under long-term threat, a sense that will only be heightened if any future American administration goes cool on supporting Ukraine. It has no motivation to fight for anything less than what international law says its territory is, and it is unlikely its European allies are going to stop helping it to achieve that.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I’ve had this conversation on here before, it may have well been with you Chris.

I’ll just leave this here, it may not age well.

I do not see an end to this conflict without negotiation. That’s it.

There will not be a “ total victory” for either side.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I will leave this here also:

Ukraine does not have to forcefully repel every Russian soldier off its territory. It just has to make it untenable for them to remain. This is likely to occur, possibly by the end of this year but likely by the middle of next, by a combination of attrition, further enhancement of Ukraine’s war-fighting ability, and political instability within Russia itself.

There will be no negotiated end to the war, but Ukraine will restore its borders and will enter Nato; prior to it entering Nato it will benefit from substantial bilateral support from Poland, the Baltics and the UK. This will include a significant military presence from those states.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Russia has lost its fighting edge in the form of Wagner. Politically, it's become more isolated with Turkey and India now nailing their colours to the West. At home, there's a loss of morale with the damage inflicted on the Kerch Bridge, attacks on Russian territory and young men not returning home alive. And on the battle field, Ukraine is advancing.

And after that, entry to NATO and the EU will come.

None of the above guarantees a Ukranian military victory and we'll only know for sure in time.

If the two sides don't agree a deal then the temptation for Trump would be to lean on the side that he has most leverage with or look ineffective. That's Ukraine, via the US's supply of intelligence and arms.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

But as a direct result of this war, Putin now has NATO on his direct border in the form of Finland.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Russia already NATO on its direct border in the form of Norway, Latavia and Estonia.

Plus Poland and Lithuania border Russia's Kaliningrad region.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

NB Trump is not going to be president. Even if he wins the republican nomination, are swing voters really going to select an indicted and possibly (by then) convicted criminal to be president, even if it isn’t technically against the constitution for him to rule from jail? That scenario is too absurd even for America.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Good point.

I was referring to the war "stopping" NATO advancing to border Russia when the war ironically advanced the border to Russia (more).

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

More nails in the coffin for Piers' theory.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

How so? that has been the case for many years.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Depends on how bad Biden's deterioration is. If he has a disastrous debate performance then there is a chance, all it requires is for the Trump loyalists to turn out in the swing states and the vote being more depressed amongst Biden voters last time.

It's very unlikely Trump wins the popular vote but he only needs a few states to turn Red.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Oh dear.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/18/7411807/

Who were they trying to kid?

Wrong answers only.:)

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

A very interesting and informative discussion with @WarinthFuture (Mike Ryan AM) at the Lowy institute.

https://www.lowyinstitute.org/event/...war-where-next

The Russsian mindset?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Following this rediculous decision

the IOC recommends this.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/28/7413179/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Personally all Russian athletes (and many of the pro Russian) should be banned from all sports.

This should be done a a government level so the farce of penalising Wimbledon can't happen.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I agree, they should be banned at least until this war is over. Meanwhile Kharlan has commented on it.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/28/7413167/

Its going to be a lot of years before any Ukrainian will even consider shaking a Russian's hand after what Russia is diong to them.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

For what reason ?
Do we ban all other athletes in countries that are at war with other countries ?
They are not even competing as Russians (or Belarusians) but forced to be Neutrals.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I completely agree.

If we are going to pretend it’s not a proxy war between NATO and Russia we should at least allow individuals to compete with restrictions.

If Ukrainians don’t want to play by the rules (that includes respecting opponents) then they should withdraw. It’s tedious nonsense.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

The reason they don't shake hands is because they don't want the photos used for Russian propaganda. They don't want anything to support the Russian Government's narrative that the people of Ukraine support Russia.

The Ukrainian did offer to touch tap blades which was the protocol during COVID apparently and has been used occasionally since. The Russian refused trying to insist on the handshake and then refused to leave during a 45-minute meltdown. She was trying to get the Ukrainian disqualified, her Instagram was full of stuff promoting the Russian war so she knew what she was doing. I have no sympathy for her.

I don't think Russian and Belarusian athletes should be banned but it becomes trickier if they're using the sports to promote the war and provoke their Ukrainian opponents.

You compare that to tennis where the Russian and Belarusian players respect their opponent's decision not to shake hands and instead, the players nod to each other.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I fail to see the propaganda value of a Russian in defeat shaking hands with their Ukrainian victor. The basic minimum level of courtesy across a range of sports.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Because it can be used to promote the idea that Ukrainians and Russians are basically the same people, which is the philosophical justification for the war in Russia, regardless of whatever Russian propaganda you might have swallowed about them wanting to take on Nato.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

It seems somewhat far fetched to suggest that Russians sit watching television and think that every time a Russian shakes hands in an essentially mandatory scenario that the other nationality or ethnicity is somehow Russia aligned.

The suggestion that it’s to ostracise or demonise Russian people at an individual level is much, much more credible.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Common sense has prevailed.

Source Kyiv Independant tweet.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Good news, however its not been so good for the Ukranian cricket team :-

Give 10 years they'll be beating us as well as Russia...

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I think you have nothing credible to say about the personal feelings of any Ukrainian towards any Russian unless you somehow gain access to the source of those feelings. As you’re unlikely to have lost anyone as a result of having your homeland invaded, nor are you likely to have to have worked with (or played sport against) someone whose brother fights with the invading army, or whose social media accounts loudly support the invasion, it’s unlikely you will ever have any credible moral authority to suggest any Ukrainian should behave in any particular way towards any Russian. Your only viable alternative is an intellectual understanding, but that would require you to listen to what Ukrainians are saying about themselves and their struggle which you seem oddly unwilling to do.

The rift between those two peoples is going to take generations to repair. A passing acquaintance with our own history and especially attitudes towards Germans for decades after WW2 would be instructive here. For now, if a Ukrainian says it’s too painful, then they are the oppressed and that’s their privilege. We need do no more than believe them.

Everything isn’t about great power politics all the time. But if you absolutely insist on seeing it as an aspect of grand strategy then no, it isn’t more likely that there’s a campaign on to demonise Russians. There’s no need; they’re doing that fine all by themselves. The Ukrainians know the Russians better than anyone. If they think it’s worthwhile denying Russian TV useful images for internal propaganda (or, indeed, propaganda in the Global South where there’s only lukewarm ambivalence towards the whole affair) … then again, our best course of action is to believe them.

Not for the first time, I observe that your inability to see this through anything other than a Great Powers lens leads you to the deny agency of Ukraine and Ukrainians to fight for their national survival in any way they see fit.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Sport should be separated from politics. No participant in a sport should be assumed to be supportive of the government of the country they represent.

I might be generalising a little, but I doubt that many England footballers support their Conservative government.

Think about it.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I wish you would.

Last time I looked the Conservative government hadn’t sent our army on an imperial war of conquest across the Irish republic and our soldiers weren’t torturing civilians, raping teenagers or burgling private homes as they went.

Honestly, I’ve seen some boneheaded attempts at moral equivalence but you’re on another level.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I am not suggesting that a refusal to shake hands should incur a penalty. I’m saying that sport and politics should be kept separate.

And incidentally, I notice with some incredulity that you describe people who disagree with you as ‘bone-headed’. No-one on this Earth is right all the time, and that includes you. And this is a discussion forum.

I plead guilty to using a conjunction at the beginning of a sentence twice in one paragraph. There, I’ve said it for you. :)

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

That's a thing people say but it's not realistic. Everything can be political. That's why countries bid for World Cup and Olympics, it's why Saudi Arabia purchased Newcastle, and why Abramovich purchased Chelsea then had to sell them.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

This would all of course have some meaning if Ukrainians weren’t giving any respect or acknowledgment to their Russian opponents. However they are between tennis and fencing - a nod, a thumbs up, touching swords all take place. The handshake is a specific form of snub for Ukraine’s own propaganda. Every event descends into some farcical discussion of it. Fans at Wimbledon, ignorant of what’s actually happening, boo Russians for going along with the requests of their opponents.

The irony of dismissing the Global South in one sentence and accusing me of having a “Great Powers” lens in the next is quite something. Presumably the only people allowed an opinion are those who support the Zelensky regime (but not opposition parties, or trade unions of course they’re banned), and the perfectly aligned NATO position.

I’m quite looking forward to see which way you break when inevitably the USA pulls the plug on fighting for every inch and tells Zelensky to get his pen out. That could truly demonstrate who has a Great Powers lens. The hedge funds will want to make bank out the reconstruction efforts sooner rather than later, and Biden probably doesn’t want it hanging over the 2024 election.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

That Ukraine depends on American support doesn't mean they didn't enter this war, i.e decide to defend themselves from Russian invasion, of their own volition.

I don't know why you're always so keen to defend Russia and admonish Ukraine for their audacity to fight back against the country that invaded them and is killing them.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I’m not sure I’ve ever admonished Ukraine for defending itself. I don’t think I’ve ever defended Russian actions either.

I don’t think it’s fair to consider my view that there’s greater complexity than the romantic view of Ukrainian men fighting to the death in a conscript army in that way. I don’t think it’s fair to mislead them if the USA will eventually pull the rug from under them.

As Seph points out above if the best hope is for a coup then I’m not convinced demonising Russians wherever they are in the world benefits the domestic opposition to Putin.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

What's goin on here???

https://targum.video/v/2023/8/15/2fd...1c1bafaa6548a/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

How bizarre. :D

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Most likely the tank has been immobilised and they either spotted the Ukrainian reconnaissance drone or else assumed there was one nearby - in either case it was a reasonable guess that they were about to get either a grenade dropped on them or possibly have an artillery round called in (the Ukrainians have got very, very good at calling in accurate artillery fire via drone).

Even if none of that was true, the Russian tank crew was probably very drunk.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Well, who'd of thought. I thought there was something else behind it.

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/08/17/7416002/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Just makes her even cooler tbh

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

:romance::romance::romance: I think I’m in love …

(Not really, you’re the only one for me missus darling wife, but you get my point :D )

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Agree entirely Chris, unlike you I'm single though.:D

I like the "Let them fear me" line!

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Netherlands. F-16, agreement on 42 jets for Ukraine.

Denmark. F-16, agreement on 19 jets for Ukraine and expansion of training missions of our pilots and engineers.

Doubt they will be supplied this year though as training is 6mths min.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

There are suggestions going around today that they may have been training for up to 3 months already.

The main constraint for Denmark and the Netherlands has been the delivery schedule for their new F-35s which they are now starting to receive in quantity. This allows them to retire their F-16s. The Biden administration is still vainly trying to play Great Powers with this crisis and is dragging its heels on its own training offer as it has on granting approval of the jets’ transfer to Ukraine. But regardless of whatever they eventually offer with regards to training, the approvals for the Danish and Dutch transfer of these F-16s has been signed, and I suspect, if they thought they had managed to delay the appearance of these planes in theatre until early next year, they are in for a surprise.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

I certainly hope you are correct Chris. As regards the Netherlands they only have 24 in service, 18 have already been taken out, 12 of which were due to be sold to an American company but apparently the deal fell through. Perhaps Ukrainian maintainance crew are training on those to ensure they are ready for service?

https://theaviationist.com/2021/06/3...-f-16s-draken/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

In May, it was reported that the first 20 Ukrainian pilots had entered F-16 training in UK
https://kyivindependent.com/media-fi...raining-in-uk/

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Technically, the UK training has been preliminary Nato tactical training rather than for the F-16 specifically. The UK doesn’t operate F-16s so we don’t have any of the actual aircraft or simulators for them to train on. US government approval would have been required even to transfer a simulator to the UK from another country.

Nevertheless there is plenty we can do for them using our own Hawk jets (very similar to Red Arrows aircraft) and I suspect this is what has been happening.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

They will be trained in Greece. Kalamata area, the same area as the olives :)

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Not until they’ve learned English and Nato fighter pilot basics. Advanced training on the F-16 itself will take place with the air forces that fly them, but the new cadre of pilots being recruited and entered for training from scratch will come to the UK first. Afterwards, I’m hearing, intermediate level training can take place in the UK or in France. Then it’s off to Greece, Netherlands, Denmark or anywhere else they actually have F-16s and capacity to train more pilots.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Will the F16s have a significant impact on the war or are they too little, too late?

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

Amazingly, Russia has failed to really achieve air superiority in the absence of any F-16s.

I don't think they'll be a deciding factor, but just an extra ingredient.

Re: Russia has invaded Ukraine
 

The main benefit is maintenance (there is a truly vast spare parts pool), availability of replacement aircraft for losses (literally 1,000s of them are just lying around in the US) and interoperability with the Nato weapons we’ve been giving them. You have to hack MiG-29s to get them to fire western missiles and it’s unlikely the full range of capabilities of those missiles are usable at present because of that.

They aren’t technically superior to what the Russians are flying but they will make the Ukrainian air force’s task somewhat more straightforward.