Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Oh, I am, I’m just not buying the supposed reasons.

He declared no deal a wonderful thing. He told the British public to prepare for it.

He bluffed, he failed

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think - without checking back - that you certainly didn't want a 'no deal' Brexit . . . seems to me you got what you wanted :p:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Dole day loan?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is that really the best you can do Billy?

---------- Post added at 10:43 ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 ----------


Correct, I didn’t want Brexit at all. However, are you suggesting we shouldn’t question or query the governments performance?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Really?? Gosh you could have fooled me, I can't think of anything you've posted over the last 2 years that would give any indication you're not happy with the result. Maybe you should start sniping away at any little negative thing that springs to mind . . just so we know like :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You’re a happy little ray of sunshine this morning!

Calling out the issues and wanting to query the government or point out where imho I believe they’ve got it wrong isn’t sniping. Surprised at you Carth you’re actually one of the more engaging people to enjoy a healthy debate with :)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Once again, intimating those who disagree with you are traitors - seems to me your main aim in this thread is to denigrate those who have different views from you, stirring up trouble; you do this so often, I wonder if you are a resident of one of Vladimir’s little bot farms, Old Boy (or should I call you "staryy mal'chik"?). ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not sure what to make of this. Johnson has form, though.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ue-say-sources

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Of course you do, much easier to do that accept responsibility for this or admit you were duped, wonder what happened to the oven ready deal, not enough gas or electricity to switch the oven on

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Er, we agreed that deal, remember? Not the best that could be achieved in better circumstances, but given all the noises off trying to sabotage the whole thing, it was quite an achievement.

As for gas and electricity supplies- what has that got to do with Brexit?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Probably nobody to load it onto trailers :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politic...id-19-to-blame

Hope this helps...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What are they paying?

---------- Post added at 10:25 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

:tu:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.offshore-mag.com/regiona...-higher-prices

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

We won't need any gas we are cooking to death due to global bul.... er warming, if predictions are right it should be toasty/scorchio all year round.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well done - this is the most illogical thing you’ve ever posted (and it has had a lot of competition).

You’ve added 2 + 2 and got pineapple.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Triggered :shocked:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Apologies - didn’t realise it would trigger you…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

you're projecting again.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

<snigger>

Says the full-time Odeon employee…

</snigger>

I have to say I’m impressed, though - doing that full time whilst living under a bridge…

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

There was the Dutch matter that I posted yesterday.
On the US Free Trade Deal, Johnson has stated that whilst he gets on with Biden far better than his predecessor, a US-UK free trade deal is not a priority for the Biden administration.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Where was this reported, do you have a link?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Living under bridges is frowned upon now, leading to a surplus of homeless trolls . . . apparently that's why they 'invented' Twitter, so they'd have a home to go to ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Perhaps this one tickles your fancy? It's in Johnson metaphors, of course! ;)
https://www.ft.com/content/f446bf87-...5-bf7d9933b758

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

thank you.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...7&d=1632333671


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...boris-johnson/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Interesting view of the U.K./USA trading relationship, from the USA side (this guy is on the House Ways & Means Committee, which deals with Trade) - it’s from a BBC2 Newsnight interview.

https://twitter.com/repbrendanboyle/...17482020869?s=

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...8&d=1632341731

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I think 2.5% is on the high side. However, that aside the AUSAUK shows that you don’t need “trade” agreements to agree deals that will benefit the economy. Just Deals.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

BP now announced that some fuel stations will close due to the hgv driver shortage. And before the usual suspects chime in with ‘it’s not Brexit it’s the pandemic’ the managing director of Britains biggest haulage was on bbc news the other day and quite categorically stated that the pandemic had only highlighted the issue and that the primary cause was indeed our departure from the EU

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Isn't AUSAUK primarily about defence and not trade?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah but who needs experts opinion, bet there was a failed politician or "comedian" tirelessly rebuttalling with alternate facts just for balance

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah but blue passports. ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Sure, a problem known to exist on every continent of the world barring Africa is definitely all about Brexit. Honestly, I have no idea why you lot keep flogging this dead horse. The story has been debunked multiple times - most memorably in recent weeks by IKEA blaming Brexit driver shortages for non-availability of certain products in the UK, while blaming delays in shipping from the Far East for non availability of exactly the same products in Netherlands. Unsurprisingly IKEA UK withdrew that particular press release pretty rapidly, once they realised they’d been caught out.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/14...pandemic-Covid

It really is extremely simple: it is far easier to blame Brexit for anything that goes wrong in the UK at the moment than to admit to any shortcomings in ones own business strategy, because a significant portion of the population, the Twitterati and certain sections of the Press will swallow and regurgitate it uncritically.

We have an HGV driver shortage because HGV drivers have been treated like crud over many years. If Brexit has any part to play in this, it’s that our timely exit has only exposed an unsustainable situation that actually exists right across Europe. In the meantime, I can’t possibly imagine why the boss of a haulage company would prefer to blame Brexit than to blame himself for paying crap wages.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Because my old mucka, as I’m sure you’re aware yet for some reason won’t disclose. The problem is far far worse in the U.K. then it is in the rest of Europe. Again that was clearly stated by the MD of the haulage distributors.

Now, who’s right? The managing director of Britains biggest HGV distribution network? Or, you?

Might I suggest that if you have evidence that counters the above then I’m sure that bbc/sky news would love to feature you explaining it.

Ultimately, here’s the question, how many more shortages/issues will it take for you to stop and consider Brexit to be an issue? Or, will you blindly support it so long as you’re not directly affected ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

He supports it and so do I - the EU is corrupted to the core and we do not need to be in it, sick of saying this, one day it will sink in with you remainers.

We voted to leave the EU and I and would so again and again and AGAIN.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’d politely ask the same question to you, how many shortages or disruptions would it take before you have to consider it to be an issue? Or, will it be if it only causes you or your family hardship ?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Likewise.;)

Even the US is seeing a shortage of drivers.

https://www.globaltrademag.com/why-d...king-shortage/

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I’ve seen nothing that changes my mind - including the self-serving representations of those who used the EU’s regulatory environment to enrich themselves at the expense of ordinary Britons, or as cover for their own internationalist political outlook.

Any short-term issues we do face, we will deal with. Unsurprisingly the vast majority of the world seems to get by without being in the EU. I happen not to think the UK is uniquely incapable of doing so.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Regarding the driver shortage, other EU countries do have shortages but they're not as severe as the UK's 100k vacancies.

From a Daily Mail arguing Brexit is not to blame:
Germany: 40k-60k
Italy: 15k
France: 43k
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-400-000.html

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Shortages?

What shortages?

My supermarket shelves are adequately stocked - I just filled my car up with no issue - stop panicking by blindly following the news. If there is shortages elsewhere, it's probably people panic buying because of the damn news feeding in to itself.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Hi Mick, with respect , just because these issues aren’t happening to you doesn’t say they’re not happening at all.

This issue is going to get worse before it gets better.

---------- Post added at 16:18 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------


Again, respectfully, to counter that your words are purely to defend Brexit at any cost, therefore treating this as an algebraic equation once we remove each sides political stance were left with one persons considerable experience vs your….?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

It won't be helped if people panic buy. Folks who get hit are those who bulk buy infrequently when they can. So I just stocked up on bog roll, kitchen paper, rice etc because it's time I did not because I'm worried.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I also find it somewhat incredulous that one of the reasons that some (not all) people gave as one of the reasons for wishing to leave the EU was the rules regarding state intervention.

Yet here we are with energy firms failing significant job losses, increased fuel costs for over 1.5m people and the U.K. government letting them go to the wall.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not at all.

You have offered, firstly, a straw man. I don’t defend Brexit at any cost. I simply point out that I don’t believe “at any cost” (I.e. the most extreme worst case) will arise, and that so far I’m correct.

Second, you have offered an appeal to authority. Relevant experience earns a hearing, it does not earn automatic, uncritical acceptance. As you have offered no rationale for accepting this person’s view other than their job title I can only conclude this is what you’re doing.

A critical appraisal of any opinion must include some attempt to understand the context in which they’re speaking and their motivations for doing so. Such as, in this case, the likelihood that they have permanently lost their means of undercutting British drivers wages by hiring east European ones.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Salient point, but as the old expression goes, never underestimate the power of large groups of stupid people.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

People and firms (generally) want the government to keep out of the way, minimise interference and definitely low taxes.


Until of course they get into trouble then they want the government to spend money they haven't collected to protect them and "interfere" like never seen before. But if they don't then it's the poor and weak that are worst affected.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

When issues have been highlighted due to Brexit you have time and time again dismissed them, even when primary sources of evidence have been presented to counter. Now, if I’m offering a straw man argument all you’re offering is blind devotion.

You’ve made no clinical appraisal whatsoever on the subject, if you have evidence that counters what’s been said, then please, let’s see it.

To ignore a primary source and counter without fact but instead use conjecture and speculation is breathtakingly arrogant.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Primary source being someone who's 'members' want the reintroduction of cheap labour, and the continuance of shite conditions ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What would you suggest we do instead of a capitalist society ?

To add, European countries don’t have the same level of shortages as we do, and they operate in a similar if not the same way regarding pay and conditions (albeit truck stops on the French autoroutes are far far superior to ours for example)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Indeed, nice innit ??

Travelling across France, Germany & Austria a couple of years ago on the bike and the difference in roads and services between the U.K. and those countries is night and day.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If I was writing an academic essay, and you were marking it, your words here might carry some weight. But as I’m not, and you’re not, and the reasons why hauliers might be upset about having to hire British workers have actually been covered - with relevant evidence - multiple times in this thread …. Please get a grip.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No need to get grip, evidence has been presented which you have either been unwilling or unable to provide anything to counter apart from your own personal musings

In this instance. You have been weighed, you have been measured and you have been found out wanting. (c) A Knights Tale

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Actually, (c) the Bible - specifically Daniel 5:25, where the quote is first given in the original Aramaic (“Mene, mene, tekel, parsin”) then interpreted by Daniel for the benefit of Belshazzar, a Babylonian king who was understandably perturbed when a disembodied hand appeared, and wrote them on his dining room wall:

Primary sources and all that.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

yes, but the point clearly sailed over your head. It is about defence but there is also an economical element to it, £30 odd billion, most of it going the way of the USA but we'll pick up elements of it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Touché, but then, I’m aware of the origin, and as i posted, I attributed it to the film itself.

Never mind, nice try though

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well if you consider that the "primary" objective of Brexit was to leave the EU, then I would say it has been 100% successful?

---------- Post added at 17:53 ---------- Previous post was at 17:51 ----------

:rofl: doubtful.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You would indeed be absolutely right. However, where are the sunlit uplands that we were promised?

On another note Tesco now shutting some forecourts

---------- Post added at 17:54 ---------- Previous post was at 17:53 ----------

Based on ? Oh conjecture meet speculation, again !

To clarify aware != to possess in-depth knowledge of

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

remainers said it was all going to be apocolyptic, leavers said it was going to be paradise. The sensible among us knew it would be neither.

But the whole discussion is pointless.

We're out, and if the Labour shortage and other shortages are due to Brexit or not, is irrelevant.



You don't come across as a biblical scholar.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

aah Tesco, one of the big supermarket chains that rely heavily on 'just in time' deliveries, and the (nefarious) practice of getting dirt cheap prices from suppliers of goods . .

hmm, we can deliver 1000 gallons of petrol to you today for £35k, or deliver 1000 gallons to someone else in a couple of days for £42k . . . choices, choices :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Surely if the driver shortage is due to brexit then the EU would have no shortages. If EU shortages are less than 100,000 then the alledged shortage here due to EU drivers returning home would have filled those vacancies in the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Far too sensible

2/10

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

:clap::clap:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Gotta feel a bit sorry for the Brexiters on the thread tonight. More triggers for them here than an Only Fools and Horses boxset. :D

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And if EU shortages were more than 100,000 they could all go home, the UK be affected and the EU still have shortages.

It’s not necessarily binary. But if migrants are flooding over the channel to claim benefits as the right wing press suggest I’d imagine the odd one or two would drive lorries for the minimum wage while sleeping in the cab, posting home their wages to and eastern European shanty town with their tax credits and child benefit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Why would you feel sorry for them? They got what they wanted.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They wanted a trade deal with the US which Johnson said would be easy. Instead they're discussing empty shelves and HGV driver shortages.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No, they wanted to leave the EU.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They're not mutually exclusive.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Well you are projecting what you think they wanted into your argument. At any point where you say what “they” wanted is pure speculation on your behalf.

The only concrete and irrefutable conclusion from the referendum is that the U.K. population was asked if they want to leave the E.U. And they said yes.

That is it.

Anything else is conjecture, speculation, and any other similar word.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not sure why you think this … it’s as if you’ve blanked everything we’ve been saying to you for the last 5 years.

Brexit is, and always has been, about fundamental changes in the way British laws are made and democratic accountability is ensured. Sure, for some people the symptoms of those things were what energised them to vote leave, rather than the principles themselves, but that’s fine with us because when it came to it, the democratic deficit became intolerable, as we knew it would. If something can’t continue, it won’t. That’s the irresistible gravitational force of politics. Brexit was always inevitable sooner or later.

In the face of that, Remainers never were able to muster a compelling philosophical argument in favour of the European Union. All their energy was expended on trying to use the likely short term difficulties of extricating ourselves from it to scare people, ultimately to little effect. In the event, the sky hasn’t fallen in and life has gone on. Remainers have been left with egg on their faces, and with a compulsive need to haunt forums like this, trumping up every little thing they read in the Grauniad and the “Independent” into a calamity, such is the gnawing fear that they (whisper it) might have been wrong.

Meanwhile, the first fruits of Brexit appear, as businesses accustomed to undercutting British wages with short-term east European imported labour discover that no, they really aren’t going to get away with that any longer. Sure it will mess their plans up this year and maybe next, but guess what … the 40 years we were in the EU were the aberration, not the 40 before that and not the 40 yet to come.

Stop cutting yourself up over it. Everything’s going to be just fine.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No projection from me, plenty of sources state it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If things were fine then the government would be taking back control and checking imports and implementing the NI protocol. Clearly, things aren't and this list of what we're short of many months after we left the EU would give any PM sleepless nights.

If there was genuine concern about wages then the government could have raised the minimum wage. This would ensure that everyone's wages were reasonable. not just in-demand jobs.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm interested in this part, what do you think will happen now they can't undercut British wages with cheap imported labour? I remember banging on relentlessly about this 15+ years ago and no one seemed to care back then.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Wow … you’re adding economic illiteracy to your short termism? Talk about doubling down.

I’m not even going to start on how raising the minimum wage across the entire economy in order to address problems in small parts of it (not all of which are even close to paying minimum wage) is complete loony tunes.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

And they would be equally speculating, conjecting and guessing.

Whether it’s you or them, it makes no difference.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I suspect a degree of consolidation in industries like fruit growing to take advantage of the economies of scale, coupled with investment in technology leading to a requirement for fewer, but somewhat skilled jobs, and multi-skilling of workers as they will need to stay with the business full time rather than be hired and fired seasonally. If any of this happens it will only be an extension of the trend already occurring in production of many salad items, which are increasingly produced in large, specialised and highly mechanised environments. The disincentive of doing this until now has been the ability of just anyone with a few fields and several hundred yards of PVC to throw up some poly tunnels and then pay Polish students per punnet when the strawberries are ripe.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

They’ll either put up wages (and prices!) or just cease trading.

Look at the entrepreneurial spirit of the energy companies. Joining the ranks of Carillon and half the train operating companies that have ever existed.

Whatever the merits of leaving the EU or otherwise the decision to rush the process benefits venture capital and asset management firms who get to enjoy the “once in a generation” opportunities to feed on the carcass of an economy in chaos.

There are no plans to upskill UK workers, no plans to raise wages, no plans to improve living standards, no plans to tax large multinationals on profits from income generated in the UK, no plans to improve public services. All of the things taking back control could and should have meant.

The reality is the main beneficiaries need none of these things as their capital remains mobile even if workers are not.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Not everyone plucks stuff from the air.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Politicians making promises?

Unless you are Sir Keir in which case you don’t make promises you just issue a 14,000 word cure for insomnia.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If we're talking about farming, it's looking like farmers are reducing production so we'll get more of our fruit and veg from overseas. However, technology is improving so hopefully it will continue to develop to make agriculture more viable in this country and we'll get some of that production back.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Is the correct answer imo, they'll put wages up hoping that the end user will buy British but they won't, they'll go for the cheapest option and it'll be foreign, I said the other day they'd be better of shutting the abattoirs and meat processing plants now rather than putting off the inevitable and nothings been said to change my mind, there might be a degree of automation brought into certain types of fruit and veg picking but not to the levels required to keep the industry functioning as it had been until recently. We won't have to worry about British workers filling these jobs because these jobs just won't be there and tbh I've never really got this arguhadment about British workers doing these jobs, we had as near 100% employment as was economically healthy and whilst there's always Shirkers and work shy there wasn't that many really, why shouldn't British workers aim higher than these jobs?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The government is looking at options to fix labour shortages in the food sector.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58670790

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Fun aside - the early part of Daniel was written in Aramaic, the latter in Hebrew.


Also judgment fell quickly on Belshazzar - Dan 5:30 That same night...

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

<pedant>Actually 1:1 to 2:4 is Hebrew, then it’s Aramaic until the end of chapter 7, then back to Hebrew.</pedant> ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I forget where we are doing the lorry driver shortage but I see Great British common sense is showing itself again with queues at petrol stations being reported now.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

That depends entirely on your frame of reference. The Bible simply assumes there is a supernatural realm and never really sets out to prove it. People of religious faith almost universally believe there is a supernatural realm, though their faith dictates precisely how they conceive of it. That may predispose us to assume such events did happen but should not lead us to absolutely conclude that they did.

So my approach to your question is different than yours. You approach it scientifically and conclude that nothing known to science could cause a disembodied hand to write a warning of future events on a wall that soon after came true. People of faith approach the story with due regard for its heritage, its genre and the intent of its authors and editors and ask, amongst other things, if it’s intended as a historical account of events, and if the things it recounts are internally consistent with the book it is found in (Daniel in this case) and in the wider collection of books we call the Bible.

I should point out that the entire Christian faith hangs on a supernatural occurrence - that Jesus really did get executed by hanging him on a Roman cross until he was dead, and that on the third day after they nailed him up, he rose from the dead. On that basis you shouldn’t be surprised that Christians tend to believe not everything can be known via the scientific method (which was devised by a monk incidentally)

However, we are several light years off topic so perhaps best let it rest there.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

With a Costco card, there’s never a shortage… ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

This is the closest you get to theology - an EU thread. In centuries time descendants of Mick, Chris, Mr K and Andrew will still be here debating the merits of it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

If one was created by yourselves, i'd really enjoy it.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

No. God doesn't want another one:nono:

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

You could start one, maybe even use these posts to start it