Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35968798)

both petitions are totally pointless

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35968798)

both petitions are totally pointless

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35968800)

If people get too disenchanted they might look to other routes for change.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35968819)

Typical of the omnishambles that has been deeply prevalent since the Referendum...

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35968793)

Mhmm. Hands up who thinks any of these petitions are going to affect the progress of Brexit in any way, shape or form ...

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35968800)

If people get too disenchanted they might look to other routes for change.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968833)

Aaron Banks, Leave.EU and some others have been referred to the National Crime Agency over the source of their donations: https://www.electoralcommission.org....ected-offences

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968833)

Aaron Banks, Leave.EU and some others have been referred to the National Crime Agency over the source of their donations: https://www.electoralcommission.org....ected-offences

Originally Posted by Dave42 (Post 35968836)

the leavers will bury they heads in the sand as usual

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968837)

Finally!

---------- Post added at 12:34 ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 ----------


You lost and get over it/Biased civil servants and judges/The result still stands/You lot are not perfect/The money didn't change my opinions, I knew what I was voting for

will doubtless be the recommended phrases to use.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968837)

You lost and get over it/Biased civil servants and judges/The result still stands/You lot are not perfect/The money didn't change my opinions, I knew what I was voting for

will doubtless be the recommended phrases to use.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35968840)

Here's a good summary on why the Brexit we are now facing is at totally at odds with the 2016 vote:

Originally Posted by Carth (Post 35968843)

I've got one you missed . .

Will this change in any way the result of the vote?

:D

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35968845)

No it won't and nor should it but what it does tell us is how money and power corrupt in our so called squeaky clean political system as there is just as much corruption in our political system as there is abroad.

Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35968844)

That includes the comments from Dan Hannan (and others) over being able to stay in the single market.

Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35968848)

Nor does it seem that the Leave campaign has stopped, judging by a letter sent to all the constituents in Folkstone by Aaron Banks.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968854)

Remember Leave.EU were not the official Leave campaign which wanted nothing to with them.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968859)

I am right.

Vote Leave was the 'official' Leave campaign which had the major political figures (Gove, Boris) and was headed by Dominic Cummings. Leave.EU is the Aaron Banks outfit which wanted to be the main campaign but was rejected to be so. The only real figure they had was Farage.

Dominic Cummings wanted nothing to do with Leave.EU and rejected calls from some Tory grandees to associate with them because he thought, correctly as it turns out, they would do something to discredit the wider 'Leave' campaign.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35968860)

That's a relief, so Farage as the figure head of this criminal outfit never got any TV (BBC, etc.) airtime and was not in position to spout his lies on the national stage .. no .. wait .. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35968860)

That's a relief, so Farage as the figure head of this criminal outfit never got any TV (BBC, etc.) airtime and was not in position to spout his lies on the national stage .. no .. wait .. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35968850)

I was voting leave regardless of whatever road trip and lies either party was going on.

project remain worked on fear from no trade with America to WW3 so go figure that one out.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35968863)

:clap:

Exactly - both campaigns played by the same rules. But as usual - the one sided bullshit posts are still being emitted from the same folk, who conveniently use the same old tiring one sided arguments.

Both Campaigns lied. Criminality by any campaign does not invalidate the very legitimate EU Referendum result. But bless, they keep trying. :nutter:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968864)

If there was substantial criminality from either of the official campaigns then it could invalidate the result otherwise people have a massive incentive to break the law in order to win elections. Leave.EU are not the official campaign so I don't think it applies here.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35968865)

Campaign finance law violations are common in most Elections throughout the world. It doesn't invalidate the result - nor should it, because which votes do you decide are invalid?

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35968865)

Campaign finance law violations are common in most Elections throughout the world. It doesn't invalidate the result - nor should it, because which votes do you decide are invalid?

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35968861)

He wasn't saying anything in an official capacity ,he was just involved in a splinter group .

He was just a beer swilling buffoon that no one took seriously.


These allegations are unproven and as such you should refrain from calling people criminals .

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968862)

I don't understand the point. It's not like Farage was wanting for a BBC audience, they would put him on no matter what.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968862)

I don't understand the point. It's not like Farage was wanting for a BBC audience, they would put him on no matter what.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35968871)

My point is that Farage was not part of the official Leave campaign but he was a high profile member of the overall Leave campaign and as such had a national platform, ably assisted by the BBC, to spread his lies. Lies that had a direct and tangible effect on the result.

The fact that his campaign was run by criminals is no surprise ..

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35968872)

Can you link to the convictions ?

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35968873)

He will have a job - they don't exist.

Calling someone a criminal when they are not, nor have any convictions, or have not been convicted of any offence, this is considered Defamation of character and thus, libellous, so it should cease immediately.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35968889)

Good to know.

So when someone breaks into your home when you are out and steals your valuables, you refer to them as "suspected" criminals? Yeah right ...

Meanwhile:

Arron Banks faces criminal inquiry over Brexit campaign

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968897)

I think Brexit negotiations should continue for now. But if Arron Banks is proved to have financially doped the Brexit referendum then the Government will find itself in a tricky situation. I'm sure the British public's sense of play will come into play here; we don't like a cheat.
We know that the public doesn't want a hard Brexit as the only party to have this on its manifesto saw a huge slump in the vote at the last election. The only logical solution in such circumstances would be another vote, though what form would be appropriate I don't know.
But would the trial be successfully concluded by next March? By all accounts, the evidence looks pretty damning but rich people have been known to string these things out.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35968898)

There isn’t going to be another referendum. Stop clutching at straws.

It’s been said endlessly since 2016, but ... we are leaving the EU. Deal with it.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968901)

Sorry Chris, but that aggressive tone was uncalled for. Are you afraid that Crooked Banks is going to upset Brexit?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968901)

Sorry Chris, but that aggressive tone was uncalled for. Are you afraid that Crooked Banks is going to upset Brexit?

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35968903)

No, I’m not. I’m just slightly saddened to see so many intelligent, reasonable people deceiving themselves at the slightest sign of anything they think might, somehow, just maybe, stop or delay or undermine Brexit in some way.

I’ve kept out of the debate for the most part because so much of it just revolves around the latest piece of pointless intrigue. I’m not planning on getting drawn into it now either. I just think it would do you no harm to accept reality. I know you’ve erected a shell around yourself so that the phrase “we’re leaving, deal with it” just sounds aggressive and combative, but there’s actually no reason why it necessarily has to be so. It also happens to be the truth. We are leaving, and you are going to have to deal with it at some point. That doesn’t mean you have to like it, but it does mean you are going to have to find some way to make peace with it, or else you’re just going to end up permanently bitter. Which would be a sad state of affairs indeed.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35968906)

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35968868)

Total rubbish ... Farage had a big influence on the Brexit result.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968897)

We know that the public doesn't want a hard Brexit as the only party to have this on its manifesto saw a huge slump in the vote at the last election.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968907)

I do strongly urge you to read my post again. My first sentence is about Brexit negotiations continuing. Hardly the words of someone who is in denial! For those of us like me who are in the business world, accepting and planning for Brexit is a given.
Quite how "I know you’ve erected a shell around yourself.." is bizarre when we've not met and had minimal interaction on this forum. Maybe you're confusing me with someone else?
Deal with it is just an aggressive instruction. I accept that it may not be to you.
One point of my post is what do you do if something has been fixed. If it's a football match, do you replay it? If it's the Olympics, you strip the winners of the medals?
I'm saddened that what I thought was a thoughtful, discussive post from me has been so severely misinterpreted. But I'm pleased to have the opportunity to set the record straight.
But it would also be great to hear if you are concerned that the Arron Banks criminal enquiry will discredit the Brexit vote.

---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:18 ----------


Chris has kindly reworded his post, so my remarks refer to the post quoted and not the one you have read.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35968913)

Andrew, earlier today you listed a series of predicted brexiteer responses to the news about Aaron Banks, including variations on the “deal with it” theme. This is what I mean about a “shell” - your predictions are designed to caricature and thereby diminish the views of those you disagree with in order to trivialise them. You can then safely ignore them. I don’t need to interact with you directly to see this ... the forum is public; I don’t post as much as I used to but I can, and do, read it.

If this is what works for you then fine ... but I don’t think it’s tenable in the long run because I don’t think anything that has happened since the vote poses any threat to the result of that vote. You are personally going to have to make peace with that. Might as well be sooner than later. And no, I don’t think there is anything Aaron Banks can be convicted of that will result in the result being discredited, short of wholesale ballot stuffing, and nobody has (yet) tried to claim there has been fraud of that type.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968915)

People seem far too happy to readily fall for conspiracy theories that support their viewpoint instead of opening their minds.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35968918)

Andrew, I’m not sure of the relevance of your question. Even assuming that not a single piece of Brexit bad news is in any way politically motivated whatsoever (which is unlikely), I’m actually not interested in whether any of those things are true or not. Your question perhaps suggests that you think there’s a debate still to be had about whether Brexit is a good idea, the right decision and something that should proceed. You’re not going to get that debate with me; the points you’re trying to raise simply aren’t relevant to me.

We have become far too entangled in the EU; far more so than any sovereign country should have. The difficulties encountered during negotiations simply reinforce the argument I’ve been making for more than 20 years. We are leaving, and that’s a good thing.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968924)

I'm not re-debating whether Brexit's a good idea or not

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35968926)

well that’ll be a blessed relief.

thT’s because it’s irrelevant.


I don’t see how ?

yes, because it hasn’t. What impact do you think it may if had?

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35968925)

... for which I read “is this an argument for re-running the referendum”, and to which I reply, with the greatest of respect to you, we are leaving, there isn’t going to be a re-run, and you need to deal with it.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968901)

Sorry Chris, but that aggressive tone was uncalled for. Are you afraid that Crooked Banks is going to upset Brexit?

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35968929)

For goodness sake, get a bloody grip, there was nothing aggressive about Chris post whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35968927)

No one can unequivocally state whether there is an impact or not. That is for the NCA and the electoral commission to determine. The significance of the influence (if it is proven) will be the determinant of harm done.

Originally Posted by Angua (Post 35968927)

The leave campaign has misled people..

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968928)

I'm clear in my head that I accept we're leaving.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35968932)

Both campaigns tried to mislead people, they played by the same rules.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968934)

The criminal investigation today concerns one of the leave campaigns acting illegally in terms of the sources of its funding. If true, they certainly didn't all play by the same rules.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968947)

Hearing that Nigel Farage may be interviewed by the US.I will have a search later. Apparently, his status has escalated from person of interest to being actively investigated. Investigation concerns multiple data crimes.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35968950)

It's a good job he's a friend of the president then;)

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968947)

Hearing that Nigel Farage may be interviewed by the US.I will have a search later. Apparently, his status has escalated from person of interest to being actively investigated. Investigation concerns multiple data crimes.

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968945)

Interestingly the Mail of all places is reporting the Security Services wanted to investigate Banks back in 2016 but the Government blocked it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ll-Brexit.html

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35968945)

Interestingly the Mail of all places is reporting the Security Services wanted to investigate Banks back in 2016 but the Government blocked it: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ll-Brexit.html

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968969)

Bizarre it was blocked then - why?

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968969)

Bizarre it was blocked then - why?

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35968967)

New editor at the mail [remainer ] hence the story.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35968972)

The Mail's political stance remains the same despite the new editor.

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35968974)

Well your still a fan of it then ,not enough alien story's in it for my taste.

Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35968976)

l am no fan of the Daily Fail l can assure you.

Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 35968933)

Whoohoo.

nothing.

which it can’t be, how do you prove it?

The leave “ message” is not being questioned. The funding of a splinter organisation is.

One of the “so called “ biggest lies.....the 350million to the NHS was from the official campaign, which is not under investigation

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35968981)

But you obviously read it because you know so much about it's editor and it's politics etc .

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968969)

Bizarre it was blocked then - why?

Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35968982)

Now times have moved on from that it's showing the EU is weaker than ever.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968990)

You're right. From Damien's link:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35968925)

... for which I read “is this an argument for re-running the referendum”, and to which I reply, with the greatest of respect to you, we are leaving, there isn’t going to be a re-run, and you need to deal with it.

Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35969006)

I am sure you did not mean to come across as patronising but telling people to "deal" with it certainly gives that impression.

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35969014)

You need to read the several posts between myself and Andrew last night for context. Yes, shouting “deal with it” at someone across a table would be unpleasant, but in its correct sense, dealing with something is sound advice to the alternative, which in this case is hanging on to every futile hope that “it” isn’t going to happen.

We are leaving, and the sooner everyone deals with it, i.e. accepts what’s happening, stops deceiving themselves that it can be halted and starts looking for ways to accommodate this new truth in their lives, the (relatively) happier they will be.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969010)

This is all very silly. Bickering about Aaron Banks and the Daily Mail.

There is some light in the dark corner. I hope that I'm not misreading sentiment that the EU prominente have concluded that their combined financial depth is insufficient to fund investment and that they need to continue calling on the London markets as at present.

If that's true, the UK has a strong negotiating card to play in terms of the rule regarding withdrawal by the EU of equivalence recognition.

I also think, from my armchair, that this card can also be used to ease the Irish question.

Let's see. 21-November is it?

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969018)

Agreed, Chris. I know that the result of the referendum was difficult to bear for some, and a section of the population is genuinely worried about what is coming.

But it is pointless fighting it now, and I think that once a deal is announced, this will reassure many people who are currently worried about Brexit.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969021)

Dominic Raab wrote a letter indicating that 21 November was the expected date for a deal. But this was withdrawn just three hours later. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-raab-suggests
<SNIP>.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969026)

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969021)

Dominic Raab wrote a letter indicating that 21 November was the expected date for a deal. But this was withdrawn just three hours later. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-raab-suggests

---------- Post added at 17:17 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------


Just to add a bit of flavour to Chris's post. My original post was a reflective piece on how we should react if it was found that Arron Banks was found guilty. It opened by stating that Brexit negotiations should continue. It was not a run-of-the mill "We need a referendum post.
I do think that any potential interference in the democratic process by a hostile state is a concern and we need to be thoughtful about how we tackle it.
Business is worried about Brexit on many fronts.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969026)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969030)

You just cannot help yourself can you?

You really want him to be guilty, even though he states that he wants his day in court to clear his name as he denies all accusations from the Remainers in the EC. I call them Remainers because they have taken a blind eye to the £9 Million the government spent on the Remain propaganda leaflet they sent to every household in Britain - that should NEVER have been allowed, pretty much like President Obama with his back of queue threat, which we then learn that he was just following a diplomatic request from then Prime Minister, David Cameron.

So what if Arron Banks may or may have not committed offences - the Remain side is just as, if not more complicit in heavy, dodgy influencing and yet, leave still won despite the Remain campaign getting a nice boost to it's campaign in the form of that tax payer funded Pro-Remain leaflet. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969030)

You just cannot help yourself can you?
You really want him to be guilty, even though he states that he wants his day in court to clear his name as he denies all accusations from the Remainers in the EC. I call them Remainers because they have taken a blind eye to the £9 Million the government spent on the Remain propaganda leaflet they sent to every household in Britain - that should NEVER have been allowed, pretty much like President Obama with his back of queue threat, which we then learn that he was just following a diplomatic request from then Prime Minister, David Cameron.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35968924)

I will find it interesting to see how the Arron Banks case develops but happily accept that this interest is not universally shared.
For the reputation of the UK, I hope he hasn't acted illegally as it would cast a shadow on our country's standing.

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969030)

So what if Arron Banks may or may have not committed offences - the Remain side is just as, if not more complicit in heavy, dodgy influencing and yet, leave still won despite the Remain campaign getting a nice boost to it's campaign in the form of that tax payer funded Pro-Remain leaflet. :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 35969021)

Dominic Raab wrote a letter indicating that 21 November was the expected date for a deal. But this was withdrawn just three hours later. https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-raab-suggests

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35969032)

]

The Government leaflet happened outside of the campaign so it’s not in the scope of what the electoral commission does. Morally dodgy perhaps but not illegal.

And not ‘so what’ if laws were broken. If there is a suspicion of offences the police investigate it. I have not been one of the ones here saying this should mean another referendum but the accusations still need to be looked into.

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35969026)

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969040)

2) Never said the leaflet was illegal.

Dodgy - yes deffo and that's as far as I am willing to travel - ]unlike some, calling people criminals before they have actually gone to trial and been successfully convicted.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35969039)

He must have spoken out of turn and let the cat out of the bag too early!

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35969042)

Errm, you mean like Hillary Clinton Mick ???? :rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35969040)

You often like to jump in with the habit of offering critic to something, or a certain point, I never actually said.

So here goes.

1) Never said Arron Banks should not be investigated. I merely commented on the issue of Banks being investigated and suggesting Remainers are typically clutching at straws hoping it will stop Brexit, which it will not, nor should it.

2) Never said the leaflet was illegal.

Dodgy - yes deffo and that's as far as I am willing to travel - unlike some, calling people criminals before they have actually gone to trial and been successfully convicted.