Re: Brexit discussion
 

We are in the EU for the trade, not for security reasons. That is NATO's role.

If we were reliant on the EU for our secutity, I really would be worried! They have proved ineffective and they rely heavily on the UK's intelligence and leadership. There are many things that the EU negotiators might throw out of their prams, but our security expertise and co-operation is not one of them.

Clearly, you want to big up the EU, but you will have to do better than that, Andrew. They don't even think it is important to pay what they owe to NATO for their security - the UK is the only nation to take this matter seriously enough to make the level of contribution required.

No way are we relying on the EU for our security. That's just dreamland.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ineffective? How? The UK is very good in the intelligence and security fields and are certainly regarded as leaders in Europe along with Germany. However, surely any information is useful information? Even the smallest snippet of intelligence could be the key to saving lives so why not keep the door open to intelligence sharing?

The public is asked to be vigilant and report suspicious activity. This reporting can be useful. Just because it isn’t ‘there will be an attack by these people at this place at this time’ is that ineffective?

In addition, if GCHQ for example discovered information on something happening in the EU, surely sharing that information with our neighbours is a good thing to do?

Parliamentary report on security implications of Brexit BTW - http://researchbriefings.files.parli...8/CBP-7798.pdf

Found the following Europol report. This is a 2017 report showing figures from 2016 and before. France, Spain and Belgium seem to be pretty good at arrests leading to conviction - https://www.europol.europa.eu/sites/.../tesat2017.pdf

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Great analysis. If everyone posted links as you do this would be a very strong thread.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I didn't say the UK was ineffective, I said the EU was! Interesting how you have twisted this, however.

---------- Post added at 23:11 ---------- Previous post was at 23:08 ----------

Really? Why do you think that all co-operation with security issues would end with our departing the EU?

Curious way of thinking...!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

More curious is that you have failed to read The Times article which highlights this point and decided to put forward a negative straw man argument in response as oppose to suggest a positive way forwards.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I've been on 'the continent' for over a week and spoke to few locals and watched a few news programmes. Not once has 'Brexit' been mentioned, it seems to be a total irrelevance. The only ones obsessed are sunburnt irate British, whining from behind their tabloids on sunloungers they haven't moved from ! Just thought it interesting that we seem to overestimate own importance.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

why bother coming back if you love it so much

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Obviously because he lives here , his family lives here and he works here..;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Maybe because it's affects our our country more than theirs? so it will be a political sore point for most that live here?

Just saying :erm:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

poor excuse .

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not a excuse but a fact even though it might not be to your liking..

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Apologies, poor wording on my part, I was asking how the EU was ineffective, not the UK. I think we are agreed that the UK intelligence systems are pretty good and membership of the ‘five eyes’ agreement certainly helps us and our allies. But to say the EU is ineffective is not backed up by the number of arrests, the number of convictions and the conviction rate as shown the Europol report I linked to.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Old Boy has failed to support his moaning with any facts as the evidence contradicts his assertions.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I had in mind the failure of the European countries to track suspected or known terrorists as they moved from country to country. I don't know what 'facts' you are alluding to. Europe relies heavily on our intelligence and expertise in this field.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I don't think anyone is disagreeing here that the UK is a leader in intelligence gathering and analysis. The UK has also led initiatives on intelligence sharing across the EU. However, to say that other intelligence agencies in Europe are ineffective doesn't seem to be supported by any evidence that I can find.

Again, the Europol document I linked to shows the levels of arrests and successful convictions by country across the EU. I would like to know what percentage are due to UK intelligence gathering

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think what your trying to say is the EU is a nice place to visit but you wouldn't want to stay in it ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's the ones they miss you want to worry about :erm:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I shouldn't laugh but :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Very true, but we are heading in the right direction at least. The numbers of arrests are going up (1002 in 2016 vs. 776 in 2014) while the number of attacks is going down (226 in 2014 vs. 142 in 2016. Only 47% of planned attacks were successful which is an OKish result. The other 53% were failed or foiled.

I had a look at some the data in that Europol report to see if we can get any 'bang for the buck' information. I looked at the number of arrests and divided that number by the number of attacks.

Ireland and Austria stood out with plenty of arrests and and attacks. In countries were there were attacks, these are the number of arrests per attack;

UK - 2 (not reported)
France - 20 (Not reported)
Belgium - 16 (92%)
Spain - 12 (85%)
Netherlands - 45 (93%)
Germany - 7 (not reported)
Italy - 2 (55%)
Greece - 3 (Not reported)

The figures in brackets are the conviction rates. Well done the Netherlands!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

l am perfectly happy here in dear old Blighty and as for visiting abroad well lets just say it would cost more then a arm and a leg..:)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The first draft of the new British passport has become available (apparently the French parent company had a lot of input to the layout...).

Re: Brexit discussion
 

:D nice

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Don't tempt me ! Family/job/house etc the same as most folks. However if I was younger I'd be very tempted. Such opportunities won't be as easy post Brexit.

I like the UK, it must have one of the best coastline's in the World. However the people and their insular opinions are a bit hard to take sometimes. A couple of weeks in the sun is nice but I'd soon get bored. Still, I'm prepared to be bored for a few days longer. Beach tomorrow, if it's not too hot. The bar and pool otherwise :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

As i said to den
I think what your trying to say is the EU is a nice place to visit but you wouldn't want to stay in it ;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Or maybe Mr K has been enjoying living in the EU for the last 25 years and maybe the EEC for 20 years before that without leaving home (apologies Mr K if I have made you nearly as old as me!)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The only Polski Sklep shop owner left has put up all the beer prices. Some from £1.25 to £2.50 a can, citing "Brexit". But his employee showed me the invoices from last week and February last year. No change in cost to him.

Pure profiteering.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not surprised as one suspects there will be plenty more where that came from.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The Migration Advisory Committee who advise the Home Office have just published an interim report summarising employers responses to a call for evidence on migration. One of the the big questions asked is ‘why employ migrants?’.

It makes interesting reading. Here’s the link - https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...rim-update.pdf

Here are the annexes which includes details of what companies and organisations were quizzed - https://www.gov.uk/government/upload..._Update_v4.pdf

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Good to see the Brexit Broadcasting Corporation being called out again for its pro-Brexit bias.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...form=hootsuite

Re: Brexit discussion
 

To be perfectly honest Andrew there is considerable bias across large parts of the media one way or tother and its pretty hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

There is a kind of balance though. 'Teetering on the verge of a hard Brexit' is far from the truth! :D

As most people who follow the news should be appreciating by now, a trade deal looks very likely indeed. Not to have one will damage both the UK and the EU.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I'm very happy to agree with you on this point. :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Inward investment is looking up, good news for the economy.

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/0...e-reported-it/

Once we get a bit more certainty about the outcome of the Brexit negotiations, these indicators will look even healthier. Assuming we get a trade deal, I believe that the economy will absolutely take off.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Some people are just born 'stupid'...

https://twitter.com/trevkilburn/stat...71854080487424

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It is a sort of nice French blue !

---------- Post added at 20:21 ---------- Previous post was at 20:13 ----------

Well I'm back in Blighty now and what have we got ?

Flooding, state sponsored attempted murders, stabbings/shootings, row about passport colours, a strange obsession with some 96 year old duffer's hip surgery, politicians trying to out troll each other, and an utterly divided country.

My tans fading already and I've developed a cold :(

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Ca semble très sympa.;)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I think if you're Brexiteer or Remainer, this cartoon meme is hilarious...

https://www.cableforum.uk/board/atta...1&d=1523455002

:rofl:

Re: Brexit discussion
 

A grudging admission is better than none at all. :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It will gradually dawn on the most ardent remoaners eventually!

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No real surprise to anyone who's been aware of the Irish border issues.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...rder-solution/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So the EU still being intransigent hardly news is it and we will see more of it before things get sorted, meanwhile there is growing support for a fair deal in the european parliament with a dutch representative being quite clear that the current EU stance is more about punishing the UK for leaving.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If the article's accurate, Ireland's not been convinced by the UK's Potteresque solutions for the Irish border and the EU will support Ireland. I think it would be hard for the EU to ignore a member state which says a hard border will risk the Good Friday Agreement.

---------- Post added at 00:17 ---------- Previous post was at 00:09 ----------

Meanwhile, De La Rue has thrown in the towel and the Government has confirmed that French company Gemalto has the blue passport deal. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43807190

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The EU had no problem ignoring the UK for many years as recently as cameron going to then to strengthen his position before the vote. You should watch some videos of the european parliament Andrew and see not only the growing support for the UK but many members criticising what the EU has become and how it's doing more damage then good. The UK is the first to leave the EU it won't be the last unless there is meaningful and practical reform of the entire institution and whilst i am now firmly anti EU i started out in my adult life as a supporter of the EEC.

The change from the EEC to the EU is huge and no longer represents what many originally supported and the complete inability and arrogance at the top of the EU to understand the feelings of tens of millions of europeans will be it's downfall. Anti EU feeling is on the rise and already the leaders of the two largest members have freely admitted that if their people got a vote on EU membership they would vote to leave. The whole thing is a house of cards and it isn't going to take much more for it to start falling apart and while you view brexit as a disaster when the real disaster does happen we will be well out of it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This puts Ireland and the EU in a strange position. The UK Government has said it will not install a hard border.

So if there is no agreement and we don't install this hard border, will Ireland, or will the EU make a decision to install it?

I think they are backing themselves into a corner! There will not be a hard border between NI and Ireland. The EU wants to re-think this intransigent approach to the negotiations.

We just need to sit tight and see what happens next.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Nope. If the EU on Ireland's advices rejects the UK's Potteresque solution as the Telgraph suggests it has (not seen it widely reported elsewhere yet but the Telgraph is a reputable source) then the UK has agreed to a customs union between NI and Eire.
WTO members like the EU and UK don't get a choice if they want to remain WTO members; both would have to do so if there was no customs union.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's not that black and white, Andrew. There are other alternatives, but some prefer not to see them.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Wouldn't it be refreshing if when they rejected something they suggested a new alternative that could work but i guess it's easier to do sod all and still get some people singing your praises and some people wonder why so many of us got fed up of the EU.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If the article from the Brexit-supporting Telgraph is to be believed, it is black and white but some Brextremists like Michael Gove still prefer not to acknowledge this. I hope the article is wrong.
It would be quite refreshing if Michael Gove et al did face up to reality rather than kicking the tin can down the alley. But that would not go well with some of the electorate who still want to believe that you can have your cake and eat it.

---------- Post added at 17:11 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

The options have been quite clear from day one, it's really not that hard.
https://flipchartfairytales.wordpres...at-it-bluster/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The corrupt EU can be ignored. Hard Brexit it is then, works for me.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Won't work for a lot of people in terms of jobs if we did that option. Ireland is a real issue that has been kicked down the alley for reasons of political short-termism.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Andrew just for once try being even a little bit balanced your so quick to have a go at the UK government but extremely rarely do you lay anything at the door of the EU who are being deliberately difficult and making this process a lot harder then it has to be. As I've said and the videos on youtube show even MEP's from other countries are criticising the EU for it's approach to these negotiations and as time goes by with the EU kicking every UK proposal into the long grass and sticking to stupid demands the more support the UK will get and the more damage will be done to the EU.

Personally after some recent information that doesn't have a website so I can't give a link came up I'm hoping the EU continues as it has so far.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I describe it as I see it after lots of reading and careful analysis and nothing short of a Customs Union will resolve the Irish situation. No ifs, buts, or maybes. No amount of wishful thinking or speeches by the odd Dutch MEP will alter the situation. Ireland does not want a hard border due to peace concerns. If you can persuade Ireland that it's wrong or the WTO to accept a change in its rules then the situation will be resolved without a Customs Union but no one's done that so far.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Can we just not give Northern Ireland independence?

They can then choose who they want to cuddle up with and we have one less problem to solve :D

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not just the odd dutch mep also german, french, italian, hungarian and polish mep's pushing for a change in the EU's approach but it's good you've looked into it enough to understand just how much opposition there is to the EU's tactics. If the UK doesn't implement a hard border as we have said we won't then it's not the UK government being the problem is it we've put forward suggestions that could avoid it but the EU isn't interested. As more and more people are realising it's not because this cannot be resolved it's because senior figures in the EU want a punishment based deal to try and scare anyone else from leaving the EU in the future.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's great to have critical MEPs providing they're constructive and actually turn up.
It's not a punishment, it's a fact of WTO rules that require borders to be enforced. That's why Brextremists who suggest Ireland should leave the EU and enter into a customs union with the UK make more sense than people putting their head in the sand and say the EU is being difficult over Ireland.

---------- Post added at 22:59 ---------- Previous post was at 22:57 ----------

That would result in the end of the UK and the end of the Government, as it's supported by the DUP. Apart from that, it's a goer. :)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I guess you are referred no to the debate on the guidelines for future EU/UK relations on the 13th and 14th March. The advisory resolution was passed 511 votes to 110 with 51 abstentions. I will try and get a breakdown of who vote for what a bit later but here’s the document - https://g8fip1kplyr33r3krz5b97d1-wpe...idelines-1.pdf and here’s the voting result - http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/...EN&language=EN

Ok, found it. You may need to register - http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-gui...te-tabs-list-4

UK MEPs voted 8 for and 38 against. For other countries, France voted 46 for and 22 against and Denmark voted 7 for and 5 against. Those were the close ones.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

A blow to anyone hoping a no-deal Brexit is a no-divorce bill Brexit!
https://www.ft.com/content/72252768-...9-4b5ddcca99b3

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Hmm so we have to pay to leave and we get no return on decades of investment and they are also unable to repay our investment in the european investment bank till 2054 yeah sounds like the EU is being reasonable not being punitive at all are they. Sooner we are fully out of this rotten mess the better and yes Andrew even a decade of lower economic performance will be worth it though i don't think it will be a decade. It is funny how remain supporters are fully backing this divorce bill but not saying a word on the UK getting any share of the numerous area's where it's been a net contributor for decades no doubt we should be greatful that we are not paying anywhere near the 100 billion we were supposedly meant to pay.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The €100bn bill was one analysts estimate of the gross liabilities and even that analyst states it would down nearer €55-75bn net (https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-divorce-bill/)

The whole divorce bill thing is a sticky position as there is of course pressure to tell the EU to go and do one. However, if we want to set up new trade agreements, the image of walking away from one we're in at the moment without paying what we agreed in the last budget round doesn't look good.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

But again no mention of any return on the UK's decades of investment if we have paid in all that we have but have no assests to show for it then that's another good reason to get out. So far the EU is playing this as though financial aspects only apply when it's the UK paying the EU and not that the EU owes anything back. In a divorce both sides have financial responsibilities and the EU ducking out on theirs doesn't make them very trustworthy either does it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I really wouldn't get too worked out about every little news item that occurs on Brexit especially this kind of speculation.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I agree completely. Andrew is scrutinising every media outlet to scrape up every last morsel of bad news he can find about Brexit.

Despite all that was said by hardened remainers, the economy did not take a nosedive when we voted to leave, Theresa May has completed Phase 1 of the negotiations and we have already had the nod that we will get a no-tariff trade deal. The rest will fall into place.

As for the border issue between Ireland and Northern Ireland, this could be resolved quite easily by the 'maximum faciltation' proposal. This means we would manage rather than eliminate customs checks. Regular exporters would be granted 'trusted trader' status which would allow them to settle their dues at regular intervals rather than every time they moved goods across the border. However, various other options are available.

It should be remembered that the EU exports more to us than we do to the EU, so ultimately it will be in their own interests to come to a sensible border solution. All this bluster is just a pantomime and I think most thinking people can see through it. I don't know why Andrew is so fixated on his belief that this showmanship is so deadly serious.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Not worked up more curious how some people can talk about the divorce bill but never mention the other side of that coin i suspect it's because only mentioning the divorce bill with no other considerations makes it appear much more expensive for the UK to leave the EU trying to swing opinion. The government has been clear we are leaving the customs union we will be out of the freedom of movement obligation and basically at this point it's hard brexit with the likely possibility of a fair trade deal.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The EU have already acknowledged that we can have a free trade deal with no tariffs, and this takes away a great many issues relating to the border.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Yes but all EU member states need to ratify any agreement and given how tempremental some of them can be there are no certainties just yet.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's an interesting story to follow but one which people do seem to be getting rather worked up about, I do agree with you on that point.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I can't see them voting in a way to disadvantage the exports of their own businesses, can you?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

If common sense and practical thinking was the EU way Old Boy there wouldn't be a brexit to be discussing always bet on ego and stupidity.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Zero tariffs does not mean an open border to the transport of goods. The only current way to get around the issue of rules of origin and compliance of regulatory standards is a customs union and single market respectively. We, as part of the EU have many zero tariff trade agreements but goods are still stopped at customs before entry in to the country, either virtually through declarations or physically.

On that subject, I see Daniel Hannan posted a nice photo of the exit to Basel airport to demonstrate how simple no customs union is - https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/st...11751283740672

A bit 'pants on fire' with that photo, there are two exits to this airport, one in France and one in Switzerland. Leave by the wrong exit and you have to go through customs outside the airport even though Switzerland is in the Schengen Zone

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's a complicated subject and I don't blame Old Boy for not understanding it. Thanks for explaining matters so clearly, jonbxx.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I do understand it, Andrew. And we have to fix it. Things can be changed.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The rules of the EU won't Old Boy. Theresa May's red lines will have to change if we are to have seamless trade with the EU.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Time will tell Germany is starting to realise the damage our leaving will do to their economy you can be sure other studies will follow for other european nations which will increase pressure for a deal with the UK. No side has ever held all the cards in this situation despite what some might say on both sides and this negotiation will end as all usually do neither side getting everything they want but both sides getting enough for a deal to be done. The governments insistence that we will be out of the customs union and out of the single market is the only way to prevent more social trouble and no deal will be done that restricts the UK's ability to handle it's own trade affairs.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Would not leaving the customs union create issues and possibly a collapse of the Good Friday agreement, inviting a whole different type of social trouble?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

That will be a choice for the people of Northern Ireland to make and whether they wish to turn the clock back twenty five years to the bad old days. The social trouble of seventeen and a half million people feeling they have been ignored and betrayed might just be a greater concern.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I don’t remember those 17.5 million people having to live with roadblocks and checkpoints on many roads, and having armed soldiers patrolling the streets, and trial without a jury of their peers, so you may not be comparing apples with apples...

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Either the IRA have gone away or they haven't. Why should anyone kick up a fuss?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Glad to see that you are finally recognising the intransigence of the EU, Andrew!

They are going to have to step down from their hobby horse. You'll see.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

No Hugh most never experienced life as people in Northern Ireland did but do you honestly believe brexit is going to return the IRA back on the offensive and the people of Northetn Ireland just happily going back to how things were i have a bit more faith they can continue as they have since the good friday agreement.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

The rules of the club have been clear to most from day one Old Boy. Judging by your predictions, for example a free trade in financial services with the EU we'll be waiting a long time.

---------- Post added 28-04-2018 at 00:02 ---------- Previous post was 27-04-2018 at 23:56 ----------

It doesn't really matter what you or Hugh believe will happen in the event of a hard border. The UK has committed to a soft border which to date means NI and Eire staying in a single market and customs union or similar. (The UK has until June to come up with a workable solution that doesn't involve the above but has failed to do so to date.)

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Well neither you or me know everything that's going on Andrew and right now the EU is trying to play hardball and is not even trying to reach a deal and as long as they have their merry band of defenders in the UK they see no reason to be realistic in negotiations. Fortunately the reality of brexit's impact on EU member states economies is starting to become clear and with increasing support within the european parliament for a fair deal that works for both sides things will start to change rapidly in the near future. What's also becoming clear is the approach of the EU to make this a process no other member state would risk in future is backfiring on them increasing anger towards the EU rather then making member states fear taking the same path the UK has and as usual in trying to be clever the senior management of the EU has badly judged the reaction and done damage to confidence.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Brexiters' whimsical theory that the EU needs us more than we need the EU has been comprehensively kicked into touch.
But one issue that prevents the UK getting an amazing trade deal is that the trade agreements it has with third countries like Canada do not allow this. And WTO rules bring certain constraints too that no amount of wishful thinking can change. Nor is any other member state about to leave any day now.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

My God, Andrew, you sound as if you need a good strong dose of anti-depressants. Gloom, gloom and even more gloom.

Has it escaped you that the EU exports rather more to us than we do to the EU?

We will get a tariff free trade deal and the border issues will be settled. We can debate the detail to the nth degree, but it is up to the two sides to come up with the best solution for both. We will just have to wait and see what that will be, but a solution to this will be found. This is not the impossible challenge you make it out to be.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Peers in thread, yep see it it’s Sonny and Cher time, Groundhog Day.

335 days to go to Brexit Day. That number shrinking nicely.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Oh for gods sake Andrew it isn't a whimsical theory the German's just got a report on the impact of brexit on the German economy and it made sobering reading other nations will be getting their reports in the coming few months. This complete blind defence you make of the EU flies in the face of what's actually going on and how things are changing. I've never said we're going to get a fantastic deal but we will get one that we can live with and that will benefit both sides.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

So German forecast papers are to be take; seriously but UK ones are not as we don’t know what’s going to happen in the future?

If we take the example of Germany, 6.3% of Germany’s exports go to the UK (https://tradingeconomics.com/germany/exports-by-country) 11% of the UK’s exports go to Germany (Https://tradingeconomics.com/united-...rts-by-country) However, we are negotiating with a trading bloc and that’s 50% of our total exports. I am struggling to find data for intra EU exports to the UK as a percentage and might need to fire up Excel for this!

Yes, there will be an impact in all countries we deal with of course. The question is how big an impact? Whoever has the least to lose has the strongest hand and it does look very much like the EU is in that position at the moment.

In other news - Brexit: Britain set to offer EU immigration deal 'very similar' to free movement If immigration was your main reason to vote leave, this whole shebang May have been a waste of time. All the immigration with none of the benefits

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Talking our hardworking British civil servants down again Rizzy like people talked the British motor industry down I see.
So, analysis from British civil servants must be wrong but analysis from the Germans must be right?

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Oh don't even bother with the whole "talking down hard working civil servants" crap given you've spent so long talking the whole country down i understand now why you favour the EU your both full of it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

As jonbxx has tried to explain, it's not the tariffs that matter on goods but the non-tariff barriers. Theresa May's red lines point to us only accepting a Canada-style goods deal. A deal with services would require EU oversight, a red line. You may recall that Barnier kicked this little fantasy of yours into touch recently.
https://www.ft.com/content/ad96d948-...8-cae73aab7ccb

---------- Post added 30-04-2018 at 00:03 ---------- Previous post was 29-04-2018 at 23:46 ----------

I've never talked my country down but when I see automatic acceptance of a report from German civil servants and automatic rejection of one from British civil servants, if that's not talking the country down then I'm afraid I need a new dictionary!
I don't favour the EU, I just feel we're better off inside it helping shape it than outside. It has its flaws as I'm sure you acknowledge Brexit has too.
The fact is that the EU holds most of the cards and we failed to sort out our position before invoking Article 50 which weakened our negotiating position still further. That's not me favouring one side or the other, that's common negotiating sense.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Irish border problem puts Brexit talks 'at risk', says EU's Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier


https://news.sky.com/story/irish-bor...snt-sf-twitter

Re: Brexit discussion
 

https://news.sky.com/story/irish-bor...snt-sf-twitter

The UK is being pressured to come up with a workable solution by June."Theresa May under pressure to break Brexit deadlock"
https://www.ft.com/content/3d8dbcb0-...e-22951a2d8493


Interesting to see how Theresa May handles today's defeat. Will she accept the Lords' verdict that a no-deal is ruled out or will she try and reverse it? What with Windrush, she has a lot in her inbox at the moment!
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8329761.html

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It looks like it will be a hard brexit with all this Irish border bollocks and the pathetic unelected Lords trying to defeat Bills passed in The elected house of Commons, too many folk trying to frustrate the democratic decision that was taken in 2016, they will not succeed. People need to get it in to their heads, we are leaving the EU!

Good to see a Parliamentary Petition has reached over 100K signatories that calls for a referendum on the abolition of the unelected House of Lords.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/209433

But oh goodie, another referendum if something becomes of it.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

As "Northerner" posted in the FT today:
https://www.ft.com/content/b0064006-...e-22951a2d8493

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I am sick of saying there is no hard or soft brexit, leave means leave.

That means leave the EU in it's entirety. Single Market, Customs Union, Jam Roly-Poly Union or whatever else union. That is WHAT people voted for and that is the vote that won. Leave means leave, not half in, half out.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Interesting development if true. Sounds like Bino (Brexit in name only) which will save economic growth, tick the leave box but leave many things unchanged and Liam Fox out of a job.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics...rs-fear-would/

Re: Brexit discussion
 

This is a premium site and most of the report cannot be accessed without a subscription.

A key paragraph in that report states:

'But Mrs May, Mr Hammond and Mr Davis are understood to have been persuaded that “specific terms and frameworks” are less important than the final objective of taking back control of Britain’s laws, money and borders.'

I would imagine that this includes the right to secure our own trade deals, which is a key aspect of Brexit.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Andrew, I don’t think you should be posting from sites where one requires a subscription, this is not a official team request, but it’s not helpful when you post things that are behind a subscription service.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

I know where you're coming from and I do normally avoid it* but this article isn't available elsewhere. I don't subscribe to the Telegraph so only have the same access as anyone else but felt this development worth highlighting.

*The FT is accessible to all via Googling the headline

Re: Brexit discussion
 

Indeed l always try to provide a non paywall link as well Andrew but sometimes that is not possible sadly.

Re: Brexit discussion
 

It's a dilemma. Some of the best sources like The Times are behind paywalls as this pays for the journalists to find and analyse the news.