Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Brexit will happen as we all know but the attacks on the judiciary who are only doing their job and applying the law by the Brexit press and the death threats and abuse aimed at Gina Miller and her namesake should be utterly condemned by all those who believe in our great democracy of ours.

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"Let me control the media and I will turn any nation into a herd of pigs." Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels.

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was he a times reader then ;)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/

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:clap:

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Nah, the Daily Heil ;)

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Some of the newspaper coverage is so absurd I'm having real trouble deciding whether they are trying to be manipulative or whether they genuinely don't understand the arguments that were put forward, or the decision the court reached (and why).

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I would assume they are trying to inflame passions and increase readership - why let facts get in the way of a good story...

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But isn't it more sinister than that? Here we have a British court making a judgement on British law and the right media, who have readerships of many millions, come out with these extreme positions.

Troubling times ..

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Our media has long gone past pure information supply to the public and observing and reporting situations these days it's about forming opinions in the reader and where possible manipulating events for whatever agenda. I've been surprised at some of the reasons I've heard for why people voted the way they did in the referendum on both sides of the issue such shallow stupid reasons that begger belief. People these days are either too busy or too lazy to actually research things for themselves they are happy to have a newspaper or tv channel tell them it's so much quicker and easier then doing it yourself.

It's got me thinking how if things keep going the way they are sometime in the next couple of decades we may end up with an electorate barely able to vote in any intelligent way and may as well just have the media owners voting.

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How many real journalists are there left at any major newspaper?:erm:

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I wouldn't want to be over dramatic but some of those headlines could have sparked some civil unrest given the ignorance of some of the readers.I could imagine quite a few stoodents getting all worked up after reading them

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It's not entirely new though. The Mail especially has long had an issue with what they perceive as a liberal, activist, judiciary that rides roughshod over the will of the people. It also fits into their general disdain for elites. The vilification of the judges in this case is right up their street because it's so easily spun as these 'unacceptable judges' dismissing 'the people' even though that isn't what the case was about.

It will be interesting to read if Private Eye has anything about the internal deliberations on that headline and if Darce ordered it himself dismissing any objections.

---------- Post added at 17:23 ---------- Previous post was at 17:17 ----------

Most students hate those papers though.

I think the headlines were very irresponsible, borderline dangerous. There seems to be an increasing willingness to undermine democratic institutions for little gain. If you forget for a moment the issue about Parliament vs the Crown the idea the judiciary should be accountable to the people rather than the law is disturbing.

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couldn't agree more

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Saying on Sky News: Jeremy Corbyn now threatening his party will vote against Article 50, if access to single market is not guaranteed. This is exactly why I have issues this going through Parliament.

If he votes against it, he will have effectively ended the Labour Party. Though I doubt he will get ALL his Labour MP's to toe his pathetic party line.

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Can't find a link to that. Just this
http://news.sky.com/video/corbyn-set...delay-10645486

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7400266.html

It's in the Independant .The man is a fool and doesn't appear to understand the process.Invoking article 50 has absolutely no bearing on future trade deals ,it is not a tool designed for negotiation ,he's simply trying to blackmail the government

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He won't be the last to try and hijack this I'm just waiting for the SNP to jump in with their demands turning the whole thing into an even bigger mess and demonstrating that the national interest is the last thing on some political minds.

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Corbyn is being either stupid or disingenuous. His phrasing 'access to the single market' is meaningless. Unless we have sanctions imposed against us we will always have access to the single market, the question is under what terms. Moron.

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UK politicians don't you just love them.:nono::nono::rolleyes:

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they are a peculiar breed that's for sure den .

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http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...imatum-9204393

So in actual fact Corbyn is not going to vote against A50 being invoked he simply wants his "bottom lines" accepted during the negotiation process ,which i suppose is fair play for an opposition leader .

seems the media are up to their tricks again

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In Generations to come it will be the media running the country

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Nigel is huffing & puffing again:

Nigel Farage and Gina Miller clash over Brexit

He is implying that Parliament has no say in this process .. bad Nigel :)

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Parliament has already had it's say, and that was "let the voters decide in a referendum". Otherwise what was the Parliamentary vote allowing the referendum about?

Parliament is not the end stage of any legislation, Royal Assent is.

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But Dave messed up didn't he :dunce: The referendum was not based on sound law it seems so we need Parliament to sort out his mess.

Gary was right all along :)

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They still may not, if the Supreme Court upholds the Governments appeal from the High Court ruling. So he's not all bad, is he ?

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Not being a legal expert or a expert on anything come to think of it l would say the Supreme Court will go the same way as the judges did Mick but Brexit will still go through with the process starting in March 2017 with May firing the gun.

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Parliament has only had it's say in the act to allow the referendum,it has not played any part in repealing the ECA ,of which invoking A50 is part because that hasn't started yet .People seem to be struggling with way our democratic system works

Royal assent is granted or refused based on advice from the Monarchs Ministers who will always tell the Monarch to allow legislation that has passed through Parliament .Parliament is the supreme authority with the Monarch at it's head .It alone can pass laws or repeal laws .....not the Government

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They could go any way, we don't know denphone. You had a Court ruling in Northern Ireland, that says the PM does have Royal prerogative and then another one in London from the other day, saying she doesn't, whose right? Two Courts don't agree with each other. That will be down to the Supreme Court to decide.

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It would be very difficult for the supreme court to uphold an appeal,effectively change their mind, without very persuasive reasons and allowing Government to solely start the process of repealing the ECA and bypassing Parliament it goes against our whole democratic and legal process

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It all depends on whether the act of invoking A50 inevitably leads to the repeal of the ECA 1972. If it does, then only Parliament can authorise it. If not, government can act by prerogative right now and Parliament will become involved when needed. The high court has ruled one way, but the argument is complex and nuanced. It is quite possible that the Supreme Court will rule the other way.

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Since there is no provision in A50 to stop it once started then it must lead to the repeal of A50 mustn't it ?

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The repeal of the ECA 1973 has nothing to do with A50.

A50 merely triggers the process of withdrawal, repeal of ECA would form part of that process and be debated in parliament in the normal way.

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The high court judges disagree with you

We cannot leave the EU until the ECA has been repealed and appropriate legislation put in it's place and since A50 starts that process and cannot be stopped it is very much part of the process ,how much the two are linked is now up to the supreme court to decide ,i suspect they will stay with the original decision that invoking A50 ultimately leads to the repeal of the ECA 1972 and therefore must be put through Parliament

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If the UK government invokes article 50 and then nobody talks about it at all for 2 years, then at the end of that period the UK automatically leaves the European Union. Obviously they're not going to do that but it is that aspect, that it *might be* inevitable, that is the issue. The European Communities Act 1972 says that the UK is a member of the EU. If the UK government undoes our membership then it undoes the will of Parliament.

It may sound like arguing about how many angels you can fit on a pinhead but the balance of powers between the legislature and the executive and the supremacy of parliament is about as fundamental as it gets. They have to treat it very seriously because decisions taken now set precedents for the future.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I do not disagree with you Chris it is involved and more complicated. What I was trying to put over was the fact that the repeal of the ECA 1973 would have to be debated by Parliament. Triggering of A50 does not. Catch 22.

Which comes first?

Surely Parliament should be pushing for a debate on repeal of the Act not the triggering of A50?

As EU rules state that membership will be ended 2yrs after triggering of A50 does that mean the ECA 1973 has no bearing on membership?

I can see a lot of dummies being spat out of the pram over the next coupple of years.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

A50 states that countries wishing to leave must do so "in accordance with it's own constitutional process" if that constitutional process states that 72 mp's must stand on their heads and go wibble wobble then that would be what happens ,ours states Parliament must repeal the legislation that makes us part of the EU and since A50 is part of that process the high court has judged both must be done by Parliament .No catch 22

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I wonder if the funding for the legal case is a no expense spared exercise as the government has been busy telling us for the last 6 years or so that there is no money so its all cuts cuts cuts.

---------- Post added at 07:43 ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 ----------

Maggy remember the time we discussed that actress who pretended to be on welfare? and then someone on here said its perfectly fine for papers to speculate instead of printing the truth.

Seems its got even worse now.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Well that's the government's case, more or less. The court's judgment, more or less, is that the distinction is false as one leads inevitably to the other, so they must be treated not as separate but one and the same.

Incidentally, the European Communities Act was passed in 1972, not 1973.

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If the government said Article 50 was revocable then I guess they could win the appeal but that itself would create problems.

---------- Post added at 09:34 ---------- Previous post was at 09:05 ----------

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...-court-on-day/

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

One in ten Englishmen died in the English Civil War from 1642 to 1646 which established the Sovereignty of Parliament. If Nigel Farage has any respect for this country's history he will call this divisive march off.
I think his real issue is that votes for UKIP don't translate into seats in Parliament so his voice in the debate will be less strong. If so, he has a valid point but it's difficult to reform an electoral system which stops you getting elected.

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This needs a MP vote.

The referendum is not binding, and its undemocratic to not put it through parliament.

Mrs May has a sound case she keeps saying, why is she so worried about putting it to a vote?

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Brexit: CPS considers complaint that leave campaigns misled voters
Case argues Vote Leave and Leave.EU made ‘knowingly misleading’ assertions of fact, including claim EU cost UK £350m a week"
"The director of public prosecutions is considering a complaint that voters were misled by the Vote Leave and Leave.EU campaigns, in contravention of electoral law.
The complaint about “undue influence” on the referendum campaign has been submitted by an independent group, spearheaded by Prof Bob Watt, an expert in electoral law from the University of Buckingham."
"Watt and his colleagues who have prepared the case say it centres on “instances where the leave campaigns continued to make assertions of fact that were knowingly misleading”, including the oft-cited claim of the EU costing the UK £350m a week.
That claim, made by Vote Leave, was contrary to evidence from the Office for National Statistics, Watt said. Other instances cited to the DPP include alleged misrepresentations on pro-Brexit leaflets that Nissan and Unilever supported leaving the EU.
Watt also cited Vote Leave’s posters that claimed “Turkey is joining the EU”, as well as the assertion that “the UK has no border controls whilst in the EU” when billions are spent on the UK Border Agency.
Some other cases had been excluded, Watt said, including George Osborne’s so-called “punishment budget” in support of remain, because it was “an expression of opinion” rather than a matter of fact."
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-misled-voters

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

If that succeeds every election/referendum ever would be null and void. Politicians having to tell the truth and deliver what they promise ?? it's just not how its done.

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It's not about delivering what they promise it's about continuing to make statements of fact like the £350m to the EU that were knowingly misleading. The aim is to try and prevent this type of thing happening in the future.

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It is true the EU referendum had the most outrageous porkies . I honestly believe brexiters didn't expect to win or that they would be expected to deliver on the 'promises'. The fact that we've just accepted they lied, and its fair enough to lie to win, is a depressing statement about our politics.

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Totally agree. They felt that lying was worth it as it was a once-in-a-liftime opportunity to leave the EU and every vote counted. It was a shame the BBC let them get away with many erroneous statements.
What I hope is that this enables politics in this country to get cleaned up.

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

Brussels asks UK to detail deal with Nissan
EU to clarify Japanese carmaker has been pledged no state aid

"European Union competition regulators have asked Britain to explain its commitments to Nissan in exchange for the carmaker’s agreement to build new models in the north of England, amid speculation among UK opposition politicians that the company may have been offered a sweetheart deal."
"An EU official said that the commission’s inquiries were “standard practice” in response to these kinds of reports, and did not necessarily indicate that it has any suspicions."
https://www.ft.com/content/6752a104-...8-79a99e2a4de6
(Non-subscribers can access the full article by Googling the headline in bold type)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I voted Leave and I've heard nothing post-Brexit that changes my mind. I voted Leave and you're Leaving with me.

Carp all you like, c'est la démocratie :).

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

some are walking away with dignity others are kicking and screaming ahhhhhh its pathetic and hard to watch as they desperately try to hold on to their beloved but failed EU experiment ,ah well never mind any one want a humbug ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

More one sided clap trap. Lies on BOTH sides and the leave side WON. Put away those sour grapes, it's getting old now.

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Whereas as you are always so even handed Mick, always presenting both sides of the argument, in a pleasant and constructive manner ;)

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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7401151.html

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It wasn't £350m, it was MORE.

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The UK doesn’t pay or "send to Brussels" this higher figure of £18 billion, or anything equivalent per week or per day. The rebate is applied straight away, so the UK never contributes this much.
https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/

My point is that politics should not descend to the point where people know that the figures they are quoting are wrong but quote them over a period of time repeatedly. It's plain dishonest. We're talking of facts here, not opinions of what-might-happens.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

So the ONT are wrong? Perhaps the Brexit campaign should've qualified the £350m with "before rebates" but it doesn't change the figure.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The rest of the EU are/were hell bent on scrapping the rebate. The rebate is a consequence of the UK having to apply EU tariffs on non-EU goods because we have a history of trading with the Commonwealth countries. It also took more than 10 years before it was put in place.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The amount of £350m is not sent to Brussels every week and that was the claim. See the factcheck.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The UK Statistics Authority wrote a letter rubbishing the £350m figure at the time. However leave campaign ignored them and continued to use the figure
https://fullfact.org/blog/2016/apr/u...ly-misleading/

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

What, like this "fact"

Balderdash!

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

There's a significant difference between predictions - however bad they might be - and incorrect statements of the current situation. I don't condone Osborne's statement for one minute.

I appreciate that not everyone is willing to accept this difference.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Independent report on individual membership of the EU for those that want it:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7405196.html

Personally, if I wanted the benefits of being a member of an EU country, i'd obtain dual nationality.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The EU's not a country so it seems a strange proposal to be an EU citizen not tied to a member state. Can't see this happening.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The 350 million claim\lie\exaggeration was totally irrelevant to most who voted to leave as was the entire campaign their vote was cast the minute the referendum was announced and was never going to change. Least now we're not alone we have company from across the pond that are in the process of being called uneducated, racist and ignorant so gotta look on the bright side :D.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Am I a pedant in wanting future campaigns free of factual inaccuracies designed to nudge a few per cent over the line? Possibly but I can but hope.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'm not sure why the 'uneducated' thing bothers people. First of all it's usually put less offensively than that, i.e without a college degree, because uneducated implies something different. However there is an actual divide between those with higher formal education and those without and it's something that should be talked about because it appears to be an increasing divide. People without for example may have learnt a profession only to see it die and found nobody who cared because more jobs were being created for those with a degree. This was a one of the big theories behind things like Brexit and Trump no? That globalisation has 'left people behind'?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

You will be waiting a long time Andrew as politicians from all sides are absolute experts at obfuscating and distorting the full truthful facts.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Seconded.

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The £350m wasn't plucked out of thin air. It has a basis in TRUTH. That is the figure the EU expects us to pay.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The slogan was a statement of fact about what the UK sends the EU each week. The EU expects and receives a lot less. Do you honestly think that someone at the EU is sat there emailing the UK going, "thanks for your cheque, now please make it up to £350m as that's what we expect?" That sounds ridiculous and I'm sure the EU would never get away with such an approach.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Being called uneducated (which has been used by a few) or not college educated because of how you vote is insulting and also diminishes a vote that was made by someone and if i go by the circle of friends i have that voted it's completely inaccurate. Excuses can be and are made at election time and usually from the side that lost and are so blind to the faults in their belief they denigrate the vote others made.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It's not insulting it's a demographic breakdown. It's not an excuse either.

Also you're not called 'not college educated' if you voted Brexit/Trump/whatever rather the numbers suggest that those groups make up a higher proportion of those who voted for those things. They are obviously people who vote that do not match that.

How are we meant to talk about these things if it's insulting to ever mention there are divides in the country?

People have different lives and experiences depending on their background, income, race, gender and religion.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

As some one who has had only 4 fights in their life (all at school over 30 years ago)

#isitok I want to punch the idiots how keep going on & on & on about the dam bus and their belief that the bus promised £350m to the NHS when it clearly didn't

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Nicola "Jimmy Cranky" Sturgeon should practice what she preaches ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That's interesting but the debate I am on about is about people continually repeating factual inaccuracies when they have been warned by official bodies that they are incorrect. Saying that the UK sends £350m to Brussels every week is an example of such a statement.
I'm on about the ethics and looking forward, I hope the country improves in this area and learns from this situation.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

As regards factual inaccuracies no-one has said we send £350m per week to Brussels. All that has been said is that our total bill to Brussels equates to £350m per week.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Vote Leave has stated "We send £350m every week to the EU." No one else is disputing that point. Here's a tweet that evidences the claim: are.https://twitter.com/vote_leave/statu...26741712658432

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Whatever the claim was the main point is was it effective in swinging votes no one I've spoken too even knew about it and i certainly missed it wasn't till it was brought up on here that i heard about it so doubtful it made much impact in voting intention. Would i prefer to live in a world of only truth being told absolutely but then I'd like to live in a world where bacon sarnies are mandatory for breakfast and both are as likely as the other. Unless the political system actually realises whats happening they will continue as is lying, misrepresenting and exaggerating things. Do i like it no i don't does it put me off voting yes it does but stopping it is beyond my ability.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

#isitok to bate the stupid yanks.

You know how Trump was demanding Obama prove he was born in the USA, and still didn't believe it when it was done.

Well some on on Facebook said imagine Trump was born in Russia.

Well on idiot said
Well he's wrong & I replied

Percentage may not be accurate

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That text going around also said he's adopted. Some going as far as saying he was born into a Muslim family.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

try posting in Klingon -the message might get through there's no point in trying to Klingon we are leaving .;)

its sad that all they have left as an argument is a bus with a slogan on it ding ding all aboard next stop- Brexit...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

[QUOTE=papa smurf;35868904]If you do get a chance to review the thread, you'll find that my point is hoping that we will all learn from this campaign and that such glaring mistruths can be avoided in the future.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

qaStaHvIS maH mej 'uch 'e' nID lang pagh tu'lu'

Apparently.

:D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

[/B]

ah hummmmm

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

[QUOTE=1andrew1;35868910]Would that be when pigs finally learn how to fly?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

"I went out, we will try to hold there is no thin" :erm:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

To be fair, reversing a google translate on any human language is likely to be equally mangled ...

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Looks like the Government might say Article 50 is reversible in order to win the appeal: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...yers-may-argue

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I'd say that's their only grounds for appeal - that the high court has misconstrued the A50 process. If invoking it does not of necessity remove us from the EU, then the government's actions can't de facto lead to the striking down of the ECA 1972, a piece of primary legislation which quite properly can only be repealed by parliament.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

It makes no sense to have a 2 year time limit on a process that is reversible .The sole intention of invoking A50 is to leave the EU so how can there be legal provision to revoke it ?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Also if they do this then aren't they committing to a Parliamentary vote at the end of the process? Which, if the deal isn't good, might cause more of a problem than if they held a vote now.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

That's how i see it ,far better to let Parliament have it's day now ,knowing that it will vote to invoke A50 ,after that has been done the government can negotiate a deal without the worry that Parliament may use any deal as political blackmail .Also wouldn't that give the SNP ammunition ? allowing them to block Brexit ?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I think they're more likely to have trouble with a vote when 'the deal' isn't an abstraction. If they get a complicated, less than perfect, deal which would have an impact on certain parts of the country then that becomes a bigger problem than if she just asks for the right to issue it now.

Also from the EU's view if they knew she had to go back to get permission from Parliament they'll have a stronger hand.

Tactually I would think it makes sense to have a vote now. Personally I would prefer one on the terms of the deal itself because I don't think May should have a free pass on this but that's a different question.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

http://newsthump.com/2016/11/12/nico...cotland-match/
:D

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

66% of our fellow brits are nothing more than treacherous swine according to this poll, how dare they demand information, it didn't seem to bother some people a couple of months back

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-eu-farron-may

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

i have just got up and i'm a little blurry and worst for wear but i have read the poorly written piece and i can find no mention of the treacherous swine you speak of

this is nothing more than a remoan , now come on all aboard the brexit bus ding ding bagsie the back seat ;)

ps thats one ugly anarchist in the picture

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

I find it a bit rich farron demanding the will of the people be respected when he's called for it to be ignored for the last few months amazing how his opinion changes when he see's a chance to stay in the EU. Parliament didn't want to deal with this issue and handed it over to the people to choose in a referendum but because the majority didn't do as they were told now they want to decide on the issue. Bunch of spineless hypocrites the lot of them and proof positive that we need to kick most of them out sadly we won't get that chance for a bit.

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Farron and his ilk just can't accept that the vast majority of people don't share their views and are in large part the cause of their abject electoral failure and the swing to the right we're seeing. No wonder they want to stay in the EU, it's infested with people just like them who're happy to listen to the people just as long as they agree with their masters... :nutter:

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

The Liberal Democrats represent liberals. They're meant to advocate for those values. It doesn't matter if it doesn't appeal to you or even the majority of people. What would the point of politics be if everyone agreed on everything?

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Does Liberal mean only listening to what you want to hear then? It's not about agreeing on everything, it's about respecting what the majority have decided and Farron clearly doesn't so he's going to do his best to undermine that decision. He's welcome to carry on preaching the Lib Dem nonsense which has seen them virtually wiped out but he can't claim to be a Liberal if he doesn't respect the public's right to have a different view and the perfectly clear result of the referendum. In fact, if the vote had gone the other way and Farage had employed the same tactics Farron would have accused him of being a right wing extremist trying to undermine democracy...

Farron isn't a Liberal, he's an opportunist hypocrite. ;)

Re: Post-Brexit Thread
 

Liberals are pro-EU and will continue to be so. In the same way UKIP wouldn't have packed up and gone home had they lost the referendum. The people who vote for them know this, for many this will be the reason they vote for them.

Democracy is always on-going. The Liberal Democrats have been decimated in Parliament and their side lost the referendum but they'll continue to campaign for what they believe in. In this case another referendum.

But that's exactly what Farage would have done. And I do not believe for a moment that the advocates for Brexit would have stopped all criticism of the EU and declared no desire for a future referendum had they lost.