re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed but do we not find ourselves in the position of a similar threat?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU is threatening nuclear war, and have installed sleeper agents operating under false identities?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

David Cameron or should I say DAVIDE CAMORSO? :shocked:

Also should add that the EU hasn't killed upwards of 50 million people either....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i see project waffle has begun ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My apologies. I just see red when I think of him and his lies.

---------- Post added at 18:46 ---------- Previous post was at 18:43 ----------

If she has tendered her resignation then she has nothing to lose by publishing it. However, if she's pro European, don't hold your breath.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i feel your pain i want to harm the tv every time he's on it

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I see project conspiracy has begun.. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nothing weird about that. Research it for yourself. :shrug:
I've had people say that "ever closer political union" is a conspiracy theory as well :dunce:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron = sheep and dagger and yes what do experts know they make a lot of claims and how far has this got them.

I agree with Gove he puts his trust in the british public. Cameron just finds us all as a hindrances I wouldn't turn my back on him thats for sure

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Some say that if we're used to the notion that the important and elite will require nice safe bunkers in which to sit out Armageddon whilst the rest of us burn, why is the thought that those same powerful people and their richest chums might quite like to engineer a situation in which the masses are increasingly controlled in order that they continue to enjoy their privileged existence? On a larger scale it's why rich/powerful people like to live in gated, secure estates isn't it? It's the reason they fight to get laws passed to make them more money, the reason they hide assets - to protect what they've got and hopefully acquire more because enough is never enough. With the world's poor and desperate increasingly on the move, is it unthinkable that the elite (whether as part of an organised group or as individuals) aren't getting just a tiny a bit scared that sooner or later their vast wealth and assets are going to come under direct threat. What better way to prevent the revolution than by stealth - a general eroding of rights etc. until the means are in place that, if/when required, the masses can be controlled. They'll not admit it, they'll even ensure that we're under the illusion we're better off when in fact we're not, but when things get messy they'll implement measures not to protect us but to protect themselves and what they've got. Some say the EU isn't about looking after the common man, it's a vehicle by which the elite can acquire and exercise more power. Of course they might really be just looking after us all because they're such nice people and it's not as though there's a million and one examples of rich, greedy, powerful people, companies and governments abusing their position... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Because this requires an unrealistic and extraordinary people for these people to control events in an unstable world. What precisely are you suggesting they are doing? There is a big difference between manipulating policy to their advantage and, say, being behind the Syrian refugee crisis.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think some are in danger of internal combustion and disappearing up their own paranoid backsides...

Chillout, Brussels is a lovely city, with lovely people, the EU isn't perfect but isn't the 4th Reich. The economic argument has been won, which is the main argument which really affects most peoples votes. Even Gove had no answer this week when asked to name any economists supporting Brexit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know quite a bit about New World Order conspiracy theories. Always been interested in them.

It is very weird. The NWO is pretty much the high order conspiracy. Once you believe in that then you have to take in most of the others because everything needs be retrofitted into that version of history. You can't have a version of history controlled by a secret elite which is disrupted by 5 guys hijacking planes so 9/11 has to become a conspiracy. You can't have a world so obviously shaped by the Cold War if that Cold War was caused by anything other than these elites orchestrating it behind the scenes. It usually goes back 100 years or so depending which crackpot theory precisely we're talking about.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's because he believes those that actually run their own business can do better and make it work versus these so call economists that always seem to get it wrong?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The way things are going, after the vote. We will be looking at an October Election, as DC wont survive.

And the knives are out for Corbyn, which is good. I voted for Burnham.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Rona Fairhead, chair of the BBC Trust, and likely to carry on in the new setup, attended the 2015 Bilderberg group meeting. Not surprising the BBC has the stance it has.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-forget-the-g7

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So the top secret conspiracy holds an annual meeting that is well-publicised and everyone knows who attends...

Cognitive dissonance, much?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

These Bilderbergers must be very benevolent fellows though surely. I'm sure they have our interests at heart and are in no way looking after their own... ;)

They don't need all their meetings to be held in secret if enough people aren't suspicious about what they're up to. Of course we wouldn't know about any secret meetings or agenda because they're ummm, secret. Corruption and deceit amongst the elite?? Now that is stretching reality... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Must be why Bill Gates gave over 3 billion dollars to charity, and why he is trying to eradicate malaria - pure selfishness... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

trying to buy his way into Devon ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Here you go:link
link
link
Just 'cos he couldn't name any off the top of his head dosen't mean that they don'e exist. :)

and, no, the economic argument hasn't been won.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But what is discussed is secret. Top bankers, politicians, world leaders discussing things in private. That's really healthy for democracy.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Or it could be why countless other gazillionaires have done the opposite. ;)

Not to mention all the bent politicians, industrialists, media moguls, etc. who've said one thing and done the other. Still yes I suppose it's truly outlandish to suggest there might be an ulterior motive which involves looking after their own interests at the expense of everyone else's. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

David Rockefeller's 1991 Bilderberg
Quote...Ten Years Later

http://www.rense.com/general17/quote.htm

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Don't remember if it's been mentioned before but www.economistsforbrexit.co.uk have a rebuttal for the lse and treasury forecasts and from a layman's position they seem to make valid points. If those with a better understanding have comments I'd be interested in them but clearly not everyone views brexit as a guaranteed economic disaster.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So DC says £1000 could be added to mortgages if we leave the EU, How? This is more like the truth when it comes to what could happen if we leave:

European Union exit could make British households £933 richer

Lower taxes, cheaper food and clothes -- these are just some of benefits of life outside the EU

This from a year ago:


The typical British household would be almost £1,000 a year better off if Britain is forced to leave the European Union, a new analysis has shown.


British businesses trading with the EU would also be no worse off outside the EU’s free-trade agreement because the Government would save enough money on membership fees to compensate exporters for the higher tariffs they might face.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...33-richer.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why would there be an election if Cameron doesn't survive :confused: ? all the Tories would do is elect another leader

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Michael Gove and Boris Johnson tell David Cameron: You've deceived public on economy

Voters “cannot trust” David Cameron and George Osborne to honour their promises on Europe, Michael Gove and Boris Johnson have warned in an extraordinary attack on their government colleagues.

The leaders of the Vote Leave campaign declare that the Prime Minister has put the British economy in “severe danger” by giving away the UK’s veto during talks in Brussels earlier this year.

They say Mr Cameron’s renegotiation of Britain’s European Union membership leaves Britain “dangerously and permanently exposed” to being forced to hand over more money and accept “damaging new laws”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...ouve-deceived/

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How has the economic argument been won ?

I really don't think most people will base their vote on the economics of leaving,most people will base their vote on less immigration and a return of sovereignty .The vast majority of voters are just ordinary people who have seen the NHS ruined by immigration ,local housing used by immigrants and local schools full to bursting with immigrants children ,that is what they will vote on ,not how GDP will be affected or whether or not we will be able to negotiate free trade deals .What the remain campaign have failed to grasp is the overwhelming desire by the general public for big change in the way the country is run

Here's a few of those leading economists for brexit you say don't exist

Economists for Brexit

Alistare Darling getting savaged by a leading Brexit economist

---------- Post added at 09:32 ---------- Previous post was at 09:23 ----------

Currently watching John Major on The Andrew Marr show ,if ever there was a reason to vote for leaving it's because that twonk supports remain

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

But then some people will vote to stay in if they're told that being out will cost them an extra 5p on a pkt cigs. and a 1p rise on petrol.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes because ciggies and petrol never go up because we are in the EU .;)

Most people are pragmatic and realise that there could be a hit financially on leaving the EU just the same as there could not be a hit financially on leaving the EU

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It makes me laugh how DC has also focused on the fact that house prices will drop by 20% which doesn't really matter if you are a first time buyer or you are selling your house to move into another house the 20% will be across the board so won't affect anyone in that respect.

The only people that stand to lose anything is selling property for ££ they could be 20% worse off. I still don't look at it as a bad thing as you are more liable to buy it if its cheaper

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Why would it cost more? Fags, yeah I can see that as the Government want the tax but fuel? Why would that cost more? We don't get it from the EU.

---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:10 ----------

But he's saying today mortgages could cost £1000 more. Will he make up his mind?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Gove has said we wouldn't leave the EU by the end of the Parliament (2020) so this is going to drag on for years (presumably Gove is trying to make it seem risk-free). Additionally tomorrow is going to have a poll showing a big lead for Leave apparently.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not necessarily. I read somewhere or it was some lie from Remain, that it could take 10 years to unravel from the EU.

Great news on the poll if it's true.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Gove said it himself. On TV.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am loving the irony here: the voter's recently elected said DC and George back into power because of their trust in their "handling of the economy".

Tory voters must be so confused ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So, do we think 'The Gover'* lied?

*© BoJo

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

perhaps their doing u turns like the artful dodger dave ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You really need to get over losing the election - move on, it's making you bitter and twisted...;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How so ? The Tories were not voted into power based purely on one part of their manifesto ,for example i voted for them mainly because i approve of the trimming back of the welfare state ,also because Labour are rubbish ,not a lot because of their handling of the economy which by and large is out of their hands anyway because of the interconnectivity of global economics

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So you trust DC & George with their handling of the economy then? :)

---------- Post added at 13:40 ---------- Previous post was at 13:39 ----------

Not at all :) Just loving the .. I trust them, No I don't or do I?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think so. As with Scotland it would have taken years before full independence. So it will with the EU. But contrary to popular belief things won't change on June 24th. There is a certain Article has to be invoked before we start the procedure for leaving. Correct me if I'm wrong is it Article 50 or something like that?

---------- Post added at 13:45 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

I think because it came as a surprise when the polls had a hung Parliament as favourite.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think anyone was naive enough to think vote out on the 23rd and we are out on the 24th we are too intertwined to just up and leave and the process is likely to take 6 or 7 years to fully extract ourselves. This is one of the reasons why all the scare mongering is not working on me there will be plenty of time for negotiation to reach a satisfactory deal for both sides and a trade deal is wanted as much by EU company's as by us. Remain is getting itself caught up in a mess now I've lost count how many different figures there have been for unemployment going up I've heard 300k, 400k, 500k and 800k and costs to ordinary British people also seem to be changing weekly as well which just highlights it's all guesses and no one has a definitive clue.

I'm still prepared to take the chance on leaving as I believe some things are above financial cost and our independence and sovereignty are two of those and given the stated aim for the EU we will have to lose those completely for the EU to become what so many of it's top tier want it to become.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed. The whole point is things won't collapse on the 24th or the economy take a massive hit. The world as we know it will not end. Mortgages will not go up on the 24th and 800k jobs will not be lost either. As we build up trade with the EU and the other countries we can't trade with on our own at the moment it will help bolster the economy as will the first savings from membership.

Scaremongering is all it is. I thought Michael handled himself better than Major did on Andrew Marr by explaining the £350 mill figure. Let's see if the voters agree?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So, if someone from the Remain camp had said it, it would have been a lie (according to what you posted), but because someone in the Brexit camp said it, it's true... :confused:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not at all I just wondered. I know the score. 10 years is a bit long though.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know i'm better off with the Tories in power so in that respect yes i suppose i do ,I know that Labour made a complete FUBAR of the economy and everything else so i know i don't trust them and don't forget we wouldn't be having a referendum if Labour had won

---------- Post added at 16:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:08 ----------

John Major reckons that 3 million jobs are linked to EU membership ,he tried his best to insinuate that we would lose those jobs should we leave

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That lie again. :rolleyes: They depend on us trading with the EU not membership. Just shows what a silly old fool he is.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I won't watch anything with john major the guy is just a prat now and a new jobs loss figure of 3 million wow at this rate day before the vote there won't be a job in the country that won't be lost if we vote leave. I don't agree with the exaggerations or embellishments whatever side may state them but the fact the British public are a few week's away from a very important vote and only get facts or as near to facts as we can by digging themselves (which I think everyone should do anyway) is a sad reflection on both camps and more reliable information should have been easily and freely available.

As I've said remain or leave this country has a huge political problem and it's going to have a far bigger impact short term then membership of the EU as I think more and more people in the UK have seen how pathetic our politicians have become and how unlikely they are to do what's truly in our or the nations interest.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

HISTORIC TURNING POINT! Brexit takes 3% poll LEAD after huge week for the Leave campaign :cleader::cleader::cleader:


http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...Leave-campaign

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's probably not the poll we were mentioning earlier. It's based on the one commissioned by the Guardian although the pollsters changed their weighting as they believed they had over-sampled people who are socially conservative: http://www2.politicalbetting.com/ind...ould-be-ahead/

So it's a lead for Remain under the new weighting and a lead for Leave under the old one.

There is apparently another poll tonight showing Leave ahead and given the hype around it then it's probably a big one.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Excellent news

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The above speech if correct is the reason I'm for leaving.The elites of Britain and the eu,and the goldman sachs of this world already see the rest of us as plebs who are here to enrich them and, to keep us in our place with the occasional goody at budget time like 5p off beer,hold the fuel duty escalator,a penny off income tax and we the plebs all cheer from the rooftops about how grateful we are to our political masters for looking after us so well.Meanwhile all the worthies of the house of lords troop in westminster and sign the book and get £300 per day "appearance" money then depart to pall mall for lunch.We the huddled masses indeed.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't see any sign that a significant number of the world's super rich and powerful are doing anything much about world poverty etc. With a few exceptions they're driven by wanting more money, more power etc. not relinquishing it to make life more tolerable for the needy masses. The EU isn't about making poor people better off, it's about enabling them to better be exploited by those in power with scraps being given to them to keep them happy and create the illusion of benevolent intent. Freedom of movement is key to doing that - a nice cheap mobile workforce ready to move around undercutting other people, keeping operating costs down and boosting profits for the rich/powerful and their politician mates.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Exactly.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

'Cameron can't be trusted' PM blasted as SECRET £2bn EU bill REVEALED

The details of new bill for Britain have emerged with revelations that eurocrats have deliberately held back a review of the current EU Budget until after Britain's referendum on 23 June.

A report for the European Parliament has noted that there is already a backlog of almost £20 billion in unpaid bills which member states will have to pick up.

This means an extra £2 billion from the UK and there are fears that Britain will also be hauled into bailing out countries in the eurozone with both Greece and Italy understood to be on the brink of crisis.

The problems have prompted the leaders of Vote Leave - Mr Gove, Mr Johnson and respected Labour MP Gisella Stuart - to argue that the Prime Minister can no longer be trusted to protect Britain's interests in the EU.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-bill-REVEALED

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think it's fair to blame the EU for growing inequality. After the all the gap between rich and poor is happening Worldwide including America. Although at the same time absolute poverty is reducing.

This is the kind of thing that Corbyn has been going on about though. Think you might have to revisit your opinion of the man. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If this is true then it's very sinister. :(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Impressive increase in numbers of those registering to vote. Especially younger people: https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...62634509463553

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...06/2.jpg:small

Looks like we'll see better turnout than General Elections at the very least.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

imo, with my background, the only good communist is a dead communist :dozey:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

unless there's a new call of duty game released that day ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Games aren't released on Thursdays.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If Leave win the vote, leaving DC in power until the next election, has this schism damaged the Conservative party so much that they risk losing their majority in 2020? Either way, the amount of mistrust in what both sides are saying surely has to have a lasting effect ...

The Euro issue has damaged Conservative governments in the past but the arguments that were had then seem small-scale compared to what is going on now.

Corbyn has been keeping very quiet on this subject .. maybe this is a very astute position to adopt?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just heard her interviewed on five live, quite like what she had to say

---------- Post added at 01:28 ---------- Previous post was at 01:25 ----------


Burnham, meet the new boss same as the old boss, when won't we get fooled again

---------- Post added at 01:33 ---------- Previous post was at 01:28 ----------


Leaving would be out of his and our hands, if we can't negotiate a unanimous extension after the 2 year period we're out regardless of how far negotiations have progressed.

---------- Post added at 01:36 ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 ----------

Its not true, you need the unanimous vote of all other members to agree an extension. There was talk earlier that if we vote leave and don't bother to tell the EU we plan to go the clock for the two years doesn't begin ticking until they get notice of our intentions, how long could that be dragged out though, a few months at best

---------- Post added at 01:44 ---------- Previous post was at 01:36 ----------

The three million jobs is an old quote from someone or thing that's well respected (I posted who or what institution earlier in this thread if you are interested in finding out who said it) the thing to really bare in mind with that quote is the next line that says after 3 million jobs rely on trade with the EU, that's not to say if we'd leave we'd lose any of those jobs, the jobs rely on the trade not the membership or words to that effect

---------- Post added at 01:46 ---------- Previous post was at 01:44 ----------


I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if leave win, I'm sure leavers are a lot more motivated to vote than remains.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Oh right so it's happening in spite of the EU? I thought one of the reasons being cited to be in the EU is protecting workers' rights. Don't; forget, we're all going to be slaves with our rights torn up if we dare to leave. :confused:

As for Corbyn, he's been anti-EU virtually ever since he was conceived. Given that he's never stopped playing the same political tune in every other respect, his sudden conversion to being pro-EU is IMHO a tad suspect. It wasn't that long ago he was saying the opposite about things single-stateside.

Unlike those for whom he appears a breath of fresh air, my opinion of Corbyn has been formed over a very long time, way back to the 1970's and 80's. It won't be changing any time soon. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm a bit disappointed with Corbyn, I had such high hopes that he could change the face of politics and politicians as we have known them for the last 20 years.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Meantime back within the home of democracy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36457120

Seems like they might not be too keen on the answer they get to the question they asked. How very typical...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am too. He seems to have been elected to be a Leader but has chose to step back from the spotlight. Doing so, no one, specifically the electorate, can get a read of the man in order to really judge him and his policies.

The view the right wing press present is, I suspect, distorted and incomplete. He should be trying to present himself in a more direct and coherent way. For example, I cannot remember him being on the Today programme recently.

As I said earlier, he may have a "cunning plan" in keeping out of the EU Vote mayhem or he may just be rubbish at his job ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He was making speeches all round the country last week on the EU. The press just aren't reporting it. They are more interested in Tory infighting, can't blame them, it's very entertaining ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt.........;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not sure I get where you're coming from? Absolute poverty is not really that relevant to the UK. It's third world countries were it was more endemic. I was pointing out the weird contrast between the fact that inequality is increasing whilst absolute poverty is decreasing. These though are global trends.

Workers rights is a different, very Western, issue which isn't really the same issue as income inequality. We do have better workers rights than the US though if that's your point?

But workers rights is different to income inequality. They're not the same issue.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The UK will be staying in the the EU whatever the result of this referendum. It won't come down to MPs defying the will of the electorate. There'll be a crisis EU summit, new offer (which will contain nothing new), UK economy slides dramatically in the meantime and people get a second chance to vote the right way in a few months time, having seen their mortgages payments shoot up and their pensions plummet. Referendums are only allowed if you vote the right way.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Right now the EU's commitment to 'workers' rights' seems to involve making it the norm for poorly paid people from all over Europe to undermine the wages and services and therefore the rights of ordinary people elsewhere. Having the right to earn rubbish money isn't all that great but of course for those who aren't affected they're just happy to get their rooves fixed cheaply.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I get the Tory blood letting bit but when if the UK media are consistently not reporting the Leader of the Opposition's speeches then something is not right ..

I thought it was Corbyn just being rubbish at his job ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well you can't really undermine existing wages if a country has a minimum wage. I guess the problem is self-employed tradesman? That's a bit of a mixed bag though because whilst they may undercut the existing traders sometimes the cost of those tradesman can be very high. Plumbers for example are crazy expense per hour. I also wouldn't say those people are the lowest earners either.

You're right though. We do need to do more to stop the richer getting richer at the poor and better distribute income in this country.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You forgot house prices crashing .. :)

---------- Post added at 09:22 ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 ----------

One of the core reasons for the growing wealth disparity is the global corporations exploiting weak national laws to ensure they a) pay the least they get away with, b) provide the minimum benefits and c) minimise the tax they pay on revenues earning in the country they operate.

Although the EU has been at fault in some regards, I think it provides the best vehicle, given its size and power as a large trading block, to ensure corporations balance the emploer/empoyee relationship more towards the employee.

If we leave the EU, the UK with the free market thinking of those current in power will erode the employee rights the EU have brought in over the years in order to encourage companies to come to the UK and "invest".

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think his problem is the Labour Party. As they are taking a pro EU stance he has to do the same or risk what the Tories are going through.

We know his heart isn't in his speeches and I think he'll probably vote leave in the privacy of the polling booth. That aside, I think once things return to normal in Parliament, we'll see the real Corbyn again.

---------- Post added at 10:24 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------

Hello David Cameron. O sorry thought DC had come in for a moment there.

---------- Post added at 10:31 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------

I have nothing against the Single Market per se. What I'm against is handing our Sovereignty and our hard earned cash over to a bunch of unelected bureaucrats who want to form a United States of Europe as America with a Federal system. Now I have nothing really against Federalism either, I believe it could work in a small country like ours. The point is it would be OURS and not the EU running it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Ignoring the money argument for a minute and great big fat lies being told.

What do you mean by unelected?

The U.K. Government decides who represents the UKs interests on the EU Council. You don't vote for the UK cabinet or ministers and there is no requirement for members to be elected MPs.

How far do you take this, people from Yorkshire have no direct say on the members of the UK cabinet, does this mean there are unrepresented?

Jamie

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Now these 'third world' countries you talk about are not poor. Or should I say the Cities and Governments are not poor? I used to support Ethiopia until I say an item where 2 boat loads of whisky were being shipped to their Government in the late 80s. We send billions to those poor people and their Governments cream it off.

---------- Post added at 10:59 ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 ----------

Simple what I mean. The European Commission are unelected by the people. They are, however elected by the EU Ministers or the Parliament I believe. We have no say in it.

The Cabinet is different. You have already elected those Ministers whereas you haven't elected the Brussels lot.

---------- Post added at 11:03 ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 ----------

Yes he's a very clever man and knows exactly what he's doing and I think he's quite right. If you don't believe in what you're campaigning for, why campaign wholeheartedly for it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think that, for the record, there have been recent Cabinet ministers from the (unelected) House of Lords although not many I'll grant you.

Regards Corbyn, if you are the Leader of the Opposition you should have a policy and you should present it. I don't believe you have an opt out on this for such an important debate.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's completely wrong, the members of the council are put forward by the elected government of each member of the EU. They didn't just walk in off the street looking for a job.

There is no requirement for UK cabinet members to be elected as MPs first, you do not have any say in the members of the U.K. cabinet. Currently the UK cabinet contains 1 unelected member.

Fundamentally there is no difference on how much say you have in the members of either.

I didn't vote for a single cabinet member, neither did anyone in Leicester or the whole of Yorkshire, guess this means the cabinet is completely unrepresentative and undemocratic.

Jamie

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes we have had, I think one Lord who was Prime Minister, maybe 2. Lord Liverpool comes to mind.

As for Corbyn, yes that's a hard one. Their policy is to remain in the EU though I'm sure there are a few Labour MPs who take the opposite view. I agree that he should present the policy or at least get the deputy to do it but I fear if he doesn't want the same thing to happen to Labour as the Tories he should either campaign or shut up and hand it to his deputy leader.

---------- Post added at 13:21 ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 ----------

Do you read before posting? Did I not say elected by Governments or the Parliament? OK so it's the member states which is not the common people so therefore they are NOT elected as far as we are concerned. Do you think these Governments / States / Members just put anyone in there? They put those who are gonna make them richer and us poorer. It's been that way since time began and always will be. The rich fat cats of Europe get richer whilst the Euro struggles and the 500 million Citizens get poorer. They are creaming it off. Do you really want to be part of that? London is now reminiscent of Dickensian times today with its poorer areas as with other Cities. The only people who benefit from the EU are the rich.

---------- Post added at 13:25 ---------- Previous post was at 13:21 ----------

I see your point in that respect but wouldn't you rather they handled the country's affairs rather than the EU? At least we would have a say where the money we do get back is spent - the WE here being the elected Government. If we, the people then don't like what they spend it on then we can boot them out. We CANNOT boot out the Fat Cats of the European Council.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

If you think that leaving the EU will stop "fat cats" exploiting the poorer in society then think again. The move to Leave is not driven by some kind of social equality in the sense you imply. Rather the opposite will happen ..

The London property price rise driven exodus is not the fault of the EU. It is fuelled by this and previous Governments policies to attract the rich (at all costs) and to help them launder their billions.

If you think that the EU monies will be spent on funding the NHS and "helping the poor" then think again ..

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Again I did not say it would. At least we would have the say on where it's spent

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Problem with debating this on forums is there are very few truly undecided it's a debate between two camps that already know their position and how they are going to vote and much like the politicians not doing much to help any undecided there might be. There are no real facts on what will happen if we leave the EU as it hasn't happened before it's all guesswork mainly driven by the initial starting position of the organisation's involved for most economists they prefer safe and steady so of course recommend staying in.

I think the best thing anyone can do is just vote on how they feel the EU has performed and whether they feel it's a greater good or bad, only thing I'd caution anyone on doing is voting on the basis of future meaningful reform because on that they have demonstrated that isn't really an option currently and will not be anytime soon without something seismic happening.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The situation/context may be different, but the principle and the message are still true (irrespective of who wrote it :))

We are currently seeing it happen before our very eyes.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Indeed. That's why I posted it. The rich and powerful love the EU but it's no friend of the working man that sees a race to the bottom in income.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I can't see the problem where voting is concerned. It's no secret the EU want more political integration and if you want that, vote remain. If you don't, vote leave regardless of the other considerations that is important. Also, if you are happy having immigrants forced on you vote remain, If not, vote leave. If you want the EU to control our finances, vote remain. If not, vote leave. If you believe the economists vote remain. If you believe the Brexit economists, vote leave. If you think Stronger in Europe lie the least then vote remain. If you think Vote Leave lie the least then vote leave. If you believe we'll be better off financially by remaining vote remain. if you believe we'd be better off without the EU vote leave. Simples

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I see it totally opposite: the EU is a better option for the working man :)

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

I am sure you said at one point that the NHS would benefit from money saved .. apologies if you didn't.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

this drivel isn't working if you want your side to win you need to take a good look at your campaign and cut out the doom and gloom .

oh and you missed out ww3 that was probably just an oversight .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You can easily be undercut if you happen to earn more than the minimum wage which is what 99.9% of qualified tradesmen would have been.

How close to the minimum wage are you and how would you feel if an influx of cheap labour from the former Soviet state Undercutdamien was to flood the UK and do you out of a job? That's a 'right' we could all do without IMHO. It's no accident that those in favour of free movement generally seem to be from professions which don't suffer. Odd that eh?...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I have thought that before and come election day it might sway me more than anything else to vote Leave

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One seems certain is that this is going to go the way of the Scottish Referendum and won't be settled, either way, on the 24th. I think this has been quite a bitter and divisive campaign and the EU issue will become even bigger. If we Remain? There will be moves to depose Cameron from backbench Tories and another referendum on the schedule within a few years. Leave? Negotiations to Leave will dominate, Cameron will likely resign, other Tories/MPs might try to get an early election to try and overturn the result before it's final and stall the process of Leaving until they do.

---------- Post added at 22:13 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

I think that's just the way of politics. People vote their own self-interest most of the time. I imagine not many people from Leave are in jobs which depend on free movement either. Likewise Thatcher doesn't have many fans from the mining communities but does amongst more white-collar workers.

I don't actually know how tradesman have been affected from EU migrations to tell you the truth. It should be easier to quantify but I couldn't find any statistics when I googled. I just threw that out as an example of a demographic which is more likely to be impacted by freedom of movement.

The problem with wages though is that we're not just competing with each other but also the rest of the world. Manufacturing for example declined in part because we can't compete as much with the likes of China/Asia. That might change if the Pound tanks but that would cause a loss of jobs elsewhere. If we Leave then many workers, such as Steel workers in Wales, will still be hurting from the impact of globalisation.

I don't know how we deal with that but Leave or Remain it will still be an issue.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My brother in law who is a decorator is getting undercut by immigrants (generally Polish, Romanian etc)
They are happy to work for less money and he has a kid and home to support here. Competing with them can be difficult :(

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Self-employed I take it?

That is bad and is certainly, IMO, the worst part of the EU. I am generally for freedom of movement but it would be better if they had some sort of economic break whereby movement is restricted and eased up as the nation reaches economic parity with the rest of the bloc. We would probably need exceptions for workers based in another country but working temporary, moving within an existing company or skilled workers though.

My first initial post about this was lacking nuance in retrospect. I still think it's not as simple as wages going up if we Leave and that the primary driver of the decline of many manual labour jobs in the UK is global competition rather than EU workers but it would be foolish to casually dismiss the fact that some people do suffer.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Very good points. If workers from EU countries with a lower cost of living so come here then what you describe can happen. I do not feel that this is universal effect as there are jobs that EU migrants will do that local workers choose not to. There are also skills shortages which again EU migrants fill e.g. the NHS. The raising of the Minimum Wage certainly helps to lessen this effect.

It is the comment you made regarding global competition that is, I feel, the important one here. The EU has strengthened workers rights and they *will* be eroded if we Leave.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Workers rights seems to be one of Labour's main reason for backing Remain. It appears to be the case that Labour don't have any confidence in themselves being elected next time to put that right if the Tories, under Brexit do reverse some of the labour laws. Personally, even though I don't trust the Tories, I doubt that they would do that

Labour also don't seem to trust that the British public would cause an outcry if the Tories did try to introduce unfair Labour laws.

Labour need to concentrate on making themselves electable rather than relying on unelected officials from outside sources to do their job for them.

And as for them having any chance of reforming the EU... well, as that irritating currently popular saying goes... 'That's for the birds'.

Britain desperately needs an electable centre left party; and the current Labour party isn't it.