Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

It's also important to understand the numbers of appeals against numbers of claims, which a lot of reports seem to miss out.

I would ask anyone criticising the DWP staff undertaking these assessments to try and have a conversation with the Decision Makers (off duty, obvs.) - it is a soul destroying job, which they (on the whole) try to carry out to the best of their abilities; my wife comes home emotionally drained every day, having read and processed many heart-rending applications. Strangely enough, the DWP staff don't get pleasure out of turning down applications, but they have to adhere to the criteria, and, like many others in other jobs, some make mistakes.

I've convinced my wife to retire early (in May next year instead of November) due to the emotional toll the job is putting on her.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

l agree with much of what Hugh says as the DWP staff must adhere to the criteria rules set out for them , no ifs , no buts and no maybes.

One thing the DWP certainly should not of done is outsource the medical assessments process to private outsourcing companies IMO.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

I have just been notified that I have a capability assent for work for my ESA claim. This should be fun!

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Good luck Stephen.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

I'm certainly not criticising the staff who make the decisions themselves. They do so according to the training given (which is much shorter than it used to be) and have a limited amount of independence in their role with increasing targets - "expectations" or get threatened with performance management procedures. The Public and Commercial Services union website can be quite enlightening.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The management of the DWP give staff policies, procedures & guidance to work to. No doubt Government ministers have leaned on them to use the areas open to interpretation and reasonableness to the detriment of claimants. This is then cascaded down to frontline staff.

Eg is it 'reasonable' to sanction a man for 'failing to complete a medical assessment' because he had a heart attack in the middle of it? Most right thinking people would say no (even though the reason for the sanction is technically correct). I'm confident that DWP staff would have made a sensible decision in the past, but under Cameron's continuing 'stricter benefits regime', he was sanctioned for this.

Man with broken back has enough of being repeatedly found fit for work eventually kills himself:

https://welfareweekly.com/benefit-cl...r-work-by-dwp/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

It is clear to all with a reasonable and objective view that the Welfare System under the Tories is not fit for purpose. The callousness of the current administration should not surprise anyone. It really is all about the money to them, nothing else matters.

Yes, you will get the Tory apologists coming along soon with a weak excuses but these will just be shallow attempts at redirection & spin. The evidence is there for all (except the ideologically blind) to see ..

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Hugh is not a Tory apoligist l can guarantee you that as one cannot blame the staff who are making the frontline decisions as they have to be politically neutral civil servants in their jobs and they also have to adhere to the rules and criteria set in front of them no matter who the government of the day is.

Don't forget Labour have history with the ESA fiasco so its not just the Tories involved in these benefit fiasco's.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Bless.
That's classic comedy gold :rofl:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Hey, what does a smurf know?

The welfare safety net is not fit for purpose says Work and Pensions Committee

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Quite.

A committee made up of (at time of formation) five Tory and six opposition MPs. By the time the report was published there were only 3 government bench MPs named on it. Politically neutral, it isn't.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Interesting, you think the opinions of Parliament Select Committee should be ignored on the grounds of "not enough Tories". The members of committees are selected by their parties through an internal ballot, for agreement by the House - see https://www.parliament.uk/business/c...-agreed-17-19/

I think in light of the current brazen and consistent lies of the Tory Party, they are probably the last ones who might qualify for such an important role.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Err, no, what I think is what I posted. The committee is not politically neutral and its report should be read critically, not simply posted on an Internet forum as if its mere existence were the final proof of the point someone is trying to make.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

It makes it all the more poignant when you see the faces of those killed by the welfare cuts/changes:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...terity-5642530

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The heart attack case will be miscommunication between the assessor and the DWP or the DWP missed the reason. The DWP will have been informed the assessment wasn't completed. The assessor won't have known at the time that it was a heart attack. Even a hospital doesn't immediately know without further tests.


The "broken back" case doesn't specify too much. Eg Why wasn't the condition medically treated? When did it start?
Link

That would suggest before 2010, ie died in 2017 aged 62. So first turned down under Labour and their rules.

Although this should have helped his situation.

Not being able walk without significant discomfort isn't the only measure. Although back problems would also likely lead to problems using a manual wheelchair.

---------- Post added at 21:18 ---------- Previous post was at 21:06 ----------

Any article that includes this:-
Cannot be taken seriously. They were all receiving benefits at the time.



If I asked for the number of deaths in Labour controlled councils, would that have any significance? Of course not.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

So far, 43% of disabled people have lost their adapted cars as a result of being moved onto PIP:

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/...-adapted-cars/

Meanwhile, it appears that Esther McVey is being called out again with her falsehoods. This time by a fellow Tory MP regarding the Motability Scheme (Lord Sterling who founded the scheme):

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2018/...on-motability/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

And?

There recently was a documentary (on channel 5?) about problems with parking. One person was a Blue Badge holder. He didn't really care how far away from his destination he was, he just wanted priority. If the distance didn't matter, was he really eligible? If distance doesn't matter, then you're in the same boat as everybody else who doesn't have a Blue Badge or even a car.

Eg Amputation of one leg may make you eligible at first for PIP or DLA, but as the stump settles down, you may NOT be eligible any more. Nothing new about that. People incorrectly assume that loss of a leg means automatically eligible. That isn't the case and never has been. Loss of both legs above the ankle is another matter. That situation IS automatically eligible for DLA/PIP, and that is specifically set out in the rules.
DLA Decision Makers Guide
PIP
One awkward situation around this issue, is that they lose the car fairly quickly, when a reconsideration or appeal may reinstate entitlement. Not sure how you can get around that. Difficult to justify the DWP continuing to pay out for a car, but not paying non-car drivers the benefit instead. Especially if they lose the appeal, and then appeal to the Upper Tribunal etc which could delay things for more than a year.


Too many misconceptions about entitlement and the rules. There are errors and outright "misconduct in public office" issues with DWP staff, but it is important to differentiate between those and public misconceptions.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Most have lost their cars due to them changing the goalposts when they are transferred over to PIP.

Since the loss of their adapted cars, many disabled people are now isolated. Ironically, some have had to give up work...

Some good news about this young man. After suddenly being declared fit for work, this profoundly disabled young man has had his benefit restored after the DWP did a U turn:

https://www.maldonandburnhamstandard...ts/?ref=twtrec

These assessments should be made fit for their actual purpose, what if this man hadn't have had family to stand up for him?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Petition to save public money and, at the same time, make life easier for those with irreversible disabilities or progressive conditions:

It's time to scrap Cameron's obsession with testing all disabled people over and over again (to her credit, May has already scrapped this for pensioners):

https://www.change.org/p/government-...ive-conditions

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Define irreversible.
I've already given an example of something that might appear irreversible but the overall situation can improve. Eg Leg amputation. Plus you have reported examples of fraud where people have got away with faking a condition, even something like blindness.
There will be cases that are fully diagnosed and aren't likely to improve, but it's not as clear cut as people are making it out to be.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Civil servants are now ashamed to work for the DWP:

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.co...versal-credit/

Like I said earlier, many of the problems are being caused because experienced staff (some who have been with the department since the days of Supplementary Benefit) are leaving in droves, leaving inexperienced staff behind.

Many of my former colleagues are now simply holding on until they can retire or take redundancy. It's such a shame that the safety net of this country has been reduced to this.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Well I had my ESA assessment last Saturday.

I was dreading it due to all the things I've heard.

However I got lucky I think as the medical person that saw me, understood my conditions and didn't put me through the full exam and I just got the result.

They have decided I am not fit for work or work related assessment. So I no longer need to send fit notes or go see the job centre.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Great news Stephen.:tu:

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

DWP to be taken to court yet again:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...eporting-story

---------- Post added at 16:38 ---------- Previous post was at 16:35 ----------

Great news :)

If you would have had to appeal, you could well have been left in the same position as the gentleman that's taking them to court outlined above.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

That sounds a one-off type of example of an excessive delay to a mandatory reconsideration. Whatever government and rules are in place, that will always happen.

Nothing there that indicates he was ever eligible in the first place.
Seeing as anybody who still gets a "no" on the MR, will likely appeal, that might seem a sensible option. You still have to get notes from your GP anyway, and the appeal stage is meant to trigger a DWP reconsideration each time you send in more info. The people that might lose out are the ones that win on a MR. Having to appeal would delay the outcome of that win.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

If you don't provide enough evidence (form filling isn't evidence), then expect things to not go as expected.

I really do fear the DWP, but (touch wood) I've never had a problem yet. I do make sure I go way over the top when supplying evidence (just ask for copies of everything sent by GP or consultants) and never fill in the forms without getting advice. The forms are designed to make you fail so totally ignore all their own examples etc.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The many problems I've had with the DWP aren't to do with not supplying the required info, it's that they don't bother to read it in the first place.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Well when you send in so much evidence / paperwork, if they ignore it all then they are the ones that will look stupid when it comes to the reconsideration / appeal.

My last ESA, I asked for a home visit assessment. They did ignore it, so got a letter from the GP and sent that to them, they didn't bother with the assessment. Crazy situation.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

There's a section on the form(ESA113) that GPs fill in to say whether you are able to get to an examination centre by public transport or taxi.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

I have no idea what was on that form. And depends if you get the right GP. Probably could have been a bit odd if one GP said I could then I get a letter saying I couldn't.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

When you get to the appeal(not the reconsideration) stage, you get a copy of all the documents used. The GP might not be aware of problems with the location of your home and that of the examination centre.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Then I would have to say they didn't bother reading the information. My GPs are more than aware of my problems. So I'd have to say the DWP are the useless ones.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Well I know in my case, although I provided a lot of evidence including all notes from my renal consultant. They still contacted my go to get more info. I got lucky I'm sure.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Standards certainly need to improve:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...Pgj7kegaKeLEoQ

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

You got to admit that is more than a bit suspicious. IE Claiming difficulties with caring for yourself, but also claim to have no difficulties caring for somebody else.


There is a well known case relating to DLA, ie known as Moyna. It went to the House of Lords(now the Supreme Court). A Woman claimed she had difficultly preparing a main meal for one, which was the test. On the other hand she admitted that she prepared meals for the whole family. She lost, but in the ruling, the Law Lords set out the principles upon which decisions on that area were meant to be made.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

There's nothing automatically suspicious about someone who is disabled who is also a carer eg a blind person may be able to be guided by a seeing person who is a wheelchair user. In addition, the term 'care' was never defined by Parliament and claims have been paid based upon a physically disabled person simply watching television with a mentally impaired person whilst talking about/explaining the programme, making prompts etc. As long as this is done for 35 hours a week or more, it's perfectly in order.

Even if the above were not the case, it is never acceptable for a so called professional to refer to a claimant as 'a lying bitch'.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

And as the Decision Maker also stated, "The tribunal may wish to explore this further.". In other words the claimant doesn't appear to have supplied enough info in order to work out if the 2 things were compatible, and that the tribunal should ask those sort of questions. If anything it might be seen as assisting the claimant's case by prompting the tribunal and the claimant in being prepared to ask and answer those questions. Tribunals are meant to have a inquisitorial role, the DWP aren't.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

£10 Christmas Bonus described as 'an insult' to disabled people:

https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/20/the-g...ople-11928104/

This is also the same for carers who save the taxpayer an absolute fortune.

It was introduced in 1972 and has never been uprated since, if it had it would now be worth approx £130.

Even this paltry amount (worth 76p today) was scrapped for those only on Universal Credit last year.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

I got mine last week. It is a joke to call it a bonus.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

It's £10 more than anyone's giving me,if you don't want it give it to charity.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

As were the recent 1% rises in some Benefits (whilst others were frozen).

I remember some politician (Cameron?) saying that the disabled and their carers would be well cared for.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

I'll have it if you don't want it....:)

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The first £73.10 of disability benefits we're frozen, meaning it wasn't even a 1% rise!

Cameron said that disability benefits wouldn't be frozen, but conveniently forgot to mention this bit.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Not really a disability/sickness component of benefits. It's the core component of benefits including income support and JSA.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

It originates from the introduction of Income Support in 1988 and is the basic amount that a single person over the age of 25 is said to need to live on, before Cameron froze it.

It's also the starting point for other benefits as outlined in Thatchers 1986 Social Security Act for other benefits, including sickness and disability benefits. To say that he wouldn't freeze benefits for the sick and disabled and then go on to freeze this component (particularly without mentioning this in his statement to Parliament) was a downright lie.

Since then, a lot of sick and disabled people have only been awarded this frozen amount with no additions.

This is the first time in history that the extra costs associated with disability have not been recognised. All previous systems of social security (Outdoor Relief, National Assistance, Supplementary Benefit and Income Support) recognised this fact and provided extra help.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The base amount is not disability/sickness related. IS and ESA are not about extra costs of disability, that is DLA/PIP. The extra amounts with IS and ESA are more to do with being a form of compensation, for not being able to increase your income by finding work.


Not sure who these "lot of sick and disabled people" are meant to be, other than those categories that have always only been eligible for the basic benefits, eg not yet assessed.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The base amount of a persons benefit is an integral part of their sickness/disability related benefit. Overall, it meant that their benefit did not increase (below inflation) by the percentage claimed and Cameron lied when he said that the disabled would be protected.

The Tories removed the extra for sick/disabled people in the 'Work Focussed Activity Group'. This was intended to replace the disability premium, which itself replaced the amounts paid for 'Additional Requirements' within Supplementary Benefit. Now they get nothing apart from the basic amount that those on JSA get that has itself been frozen for years.

I really don't know how these people manage, especially since most now have to pay something towards their rent & Council Tax.

You are incorrect Re: PIP. This is intended to help pay for personal care and help getting out and about, it is the extra elements within I/S & ESA that are intended to help pay for the extra costs of sickness/disability eg extra heating, special diet, bathing/showering etc. This has nothing to do with any form of compensation, perhaps you're confusing this with Reduced Earnings Allowance or Industrial Injuries Disablement Benefit?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The ESA WRAG is meant to be for those "temporarily" sick/incapacitated. Any extra money for IS/IB didn't happen until after a year.
I referred to "form of compensation", the term seems to be "earnings replacement".


There is nothing in the IB/ESA conditions that is connected exclusively to extra costs. That's covered by DLA/PIP.

Link

Managing is no different to those just on JSA.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Those quotes are out of date, Severe Disablement Allowance was abolished and claimants were moved onto Incapacity Benefit years ago under the Blair Government.

Re: DLA/PIP. The care components are intended to cover personal care needs eg by employing a carer. The mobility components are intended to help people unable to get out and about unaided, unless there is no 'enhanced facility for locomotion', so someone in a coma would not qualify.

The regulations don't specifically state that DLA/PIP must be used for their intended purpose, so many disabled people can and do use these payments for other things that they need help with. For example, some use the money to employ a cleaner even though, strictly speaking, the Severe Disability Premium* is intended for this purpose.

*With the transfer to Universal Credit, the Government had hoped to phase out the Severe Disability Premium, however, test cases have been brought that have prevented them from doing this in many cases.

The Government definition of long term disability (as opposed to temporary) was originally six months (defined by the Thatcher Government regulations). To cut costs, this was later revised to a year. Those not in receipt of certain benefits e.g. DLA were, as you say, only entitled to the disability premium after a year had passed.

Those in the WRAG are expected to start taking steps to obtain employment when appropriate. The problem is that the apalling level of assessments and decision making has not only led to those clearly not fit for work being deemed to be so, but has led to those who should clearly be placed into the Support Group being placed into the WRAG.

Incapacity Benefit, ESA etc are/were indeed intended to help towards income replacement. As I explained earlier, the poorest who rely on means tested benefits, were entitled to the Disability Premium. This was part of the Thatcher plan to simplify the welfare system from 1988 and replaced the 'Addition Requirements' e.g. extra heating, special diet that had existed within Supplementary Benefit.

The Blair reforms to cut down on those not working due to illness/disability replaced Incapacity Benefit and Income Support with ESA. The two ESA group's each originally had a top up payment.

WRAG had a top up to reward those taking steps to find work (in essence the Disability Premium). This was not awarded or removed if they failed to take appropriate steps to secure employment. The Cameron Government scrapped this for new claimants, meaning that these people, for the first time in the history of the welfare state, we're not provided with extra money to help with the additional costs associated with disability or sickness.

The Support Group had an extra payment to reflect the fact that they were never realistically going to work again (again, in essence, a replacement for the Disability Premium). The original idea was that, once the savings from getting those able back into work that were able to, this extra payment would be increased above inflation.

You won't find a specific reference to payments for extra disability costs within Contrinution based ESA/IB as this was covered by the means tested elements of Income Support, which was subsequently renamed Income Related Employment & Support Allowance, which has subsequently been changed to Universal Credit. Any additions for Incapacity Benefit were based on the age that incapacity began.

There is absolutely a difference between someone on completely frozen JSA and partially or fully frozen Income Based ESA as they now no longer receive extra money to help with the extra costs that disability attracts. In addition, they are in a much worse position when it comes to securing employment than those on JSA.

As you can see, the welfare system has become convoluted because of years of tinkering by various Governments, but Cameron in particular is the worst culprit. A disabled person may be now be on one or more legacy benefits (with or without transitional protection) and all this is dependant on what happened to them in the past, often years ago.

This, when coupled with the shedding of DWP staff and the loss of experienced staff (many who had worked there for many years), it's no wonder that the DWP is no longer fit for purpose.

The mere mention of Supplementary Benefit to an an often young and inexperienced member of staff results in a blank stare! I suspect that this lack of training/experience is the reason why the former Thomas Cook employees are complaining about the service that they received:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50885242

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Ironically, just as I was talking about the abysmal quality of modern day assessments, this has been flagged up to me:

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2019/...ction-purpose/

A man with coronary heart disease (who sometimes cannot even move) had his doctors recommendation ignored as he awaits a six hour operation next month has been found fit for work! It simply beggars belief.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The pdf version of the guide is date 8th May 2018, That is fairly current.


ESA & PIP are not designed to pay off people's mortgages.
Not sure if additional medical evidence is meant to be sent direct to Maximus and not the DWP, if it's not included in the original application. It should've been handed over at the assessment itself, as long it isn't general medical info.

The appeal process is still yet to come and possibly the reconsideration stage before that.



So what was he living on during that time?


So after that time he possibly(depending on recovery) wouldn't be eligible for any extra money anyway.


Why was he claiming in Manchester, when living in Scotland? When there is a shifting situation, complications are bound to arise.


It takes time to issue a notice to quit, never mine an eviction, so I'm not totally convinced about those cases.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Every claimant must be a scrounger in your book (apart from yourself of course), and the DWP never get anything wrong.... 70% of PIP appeals being successful say otherwise.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

As already explained, PIP is intended to help with personal care and getting out and about, but claimants are free to spend it in any way they wish. ESA is intended to help with day to day living expenses, of which mortgage payments are certainly so. Obviously, if people are having to use money intended for day to day living expenses, personal care and mobility costs to pay their mortgage (or anything else they might need), they are having to do without the things that they need within these areas.

How else do you expect disabled people to keep a roof over their heads since the Tories started chipping away the help available for mortgage interest payments? It started under Thatcher and was completed on 6/4/18 when it fully became a loan to be repaid with interest.

Home ownership was encouraged, then MIRAS was abolished and benefits to help with mortgage interest payments were reduced to nil.

---------- Post added at 11:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 ----------

Exactly; his responses really are extraordinary.

Many people of all political colours have various views about various Governments and their welfare policies, but this is most bizzare. I've spoken to various people (in both a professional and personal capacity) across the political spectrum (including a Tory MP) and even he was critical about parts of the system that we have today.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Some people just like arguing for the sake of arguing. I'd never understand how or why anyone would go to such lengths.... Still, it's keep those happy for their own reasons.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Aside from the questions, I was stating facts. He sent the medical evidence to to the wrong place. Maximus produced their report without that extra medical evidence.

The problems have to exist for most of the time.
So "some days" doesn't quite cut it, All part of the original rules.

From WCA Handbook dated 4th Feb 2019
Appeals can be won by providing clearer medical evidence. The DWP aren't allowed to ask you questions, so anything missing or contentious will be overlooked. Tribunals have a duty to ask those questions, eg is "some" actually "most".

Understand the rules and you can better understand the decisions and the info the DWP are looking for

By the sound of it, he will is likely to be back on JSA in a few months time(Apr/May 2020). Because his problems are likely to be temporary, he would unlikely to be put in the support group.
He's still going to end up in that situation.


He's certainly not going to get the thousands of extra £ he seems to be expecting, even he was put in the support group.

If he used the term "some days" in his application, then that would've ended his claim. If he had used "most days", then it would be down to judgement as to whether that was true.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Whilst no one wants any valid claimant have their benefit delayed, it's relevant to put that figure into context.

In March 2013, around when PIP was first introduced, there were 3.3 million claimants for DLA

In October 2019, there were 4.9 million registrations for PIP, of which 2.36 million were awarded, 2 million disallowed, and 87k withdrawn

For initial PIP decisions following an assessment - April 2013 to June 2019:
- There were 3.4 million initial decisions following a PIP assessment. Nearly seven in ten (68%) were awarded PIP.
- 780,000 MRs have been registered about the 3.4 million initial decisions.
- Just over three in twenty (16%) of completed MRs resulted in a change to the award (excluding withdrawn).
- Just over four in ten (41%) of completed MRs then lodged an appeal.
- Just under one in ten (9%) of appeals lodged were “lapsed” (which is where DWP changed the decision in the customer’s favour after an appeal was lodged but before it was heard at tribunal).
- Two thirds (66%) of the DWP decisions cleared at a tribunal hearing were “overturned” (which is where the decision is revised in favour of the customer).
- Just under one in ten (9%) of initial decisions following a PIP assessment have been appealed and around one in twenty (5%) have been overturned at a tribunal hearing.

So out of the 3.4 million initial assessment decisions (April 13 to June 19), 120k were changed at Mandatory Reconsideration and 180k were overturned at a Tribunal Hearing, which makes the successful Tribunal Appeal percentage at around 5.29% against the original number of registrations.

tl:dr - 70% sounds awful, real figure of 5.29% not so bad...

Lots of info here

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

My worry is those that don't appeal finding it too daunting , and they may well be entitled. I'm not blaming the DWP decision maker here, they can only go on the info supplied. However the assessors on these PIP claims are often not qualified to judge the disability in question; they obviously have targets, E.g. how is a physio supposed to judge the effects of autism ? ( this isn't hypothetical, I know it has happened). The system seems to designed to dissuade people from claiming or appealing. Those most in need are most vulnerable to this system, where you need to be 'in the know' as to what scores points. PIP is failure, the Govts aim was to cut costs and they've increased, and those most in need are most at risk of slipping through the net.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

It may be a failure, but more people are granted PIP than were given DLA...

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

If it doesn't get to the right people then that means nothing.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

The best thing for any claimant to do is seek advice from one of the benefit advice centres on how to go through the PIP process as it can be very confusing for some going through the process.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Very true Den but not everybody knows where to go for help. You have to have a bit of knowledge to help yourself which is why those who are most vulnerable are at risk.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

l know Mr K that some find it very hard to go through the complex processes of PIP as it can be very wieldy and stressful for some.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

I totally agree Den, but the problem is that Government austerity cuts have led to the closure of many organisations that offered free help to those that needed it most.

A double whammy for the most vulnerable in society.

I had my PIP claim completed by a solicitor who specialises in Social Security law and everything went smoothly, but not everyone is lucky enough to be availed of this facility.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

A useful online site is this one.

https://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Correct, they are not. What they are supposed to do is assess how the disability affects the person in their general day to day life.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

After only having had a few weeks training? How about a properly qualified Dr. doing the assessments, after having had several years training in the disability being assessed? False economy from the DWP.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Qualified doctors used to be used for DLA claims, but the Government wanted to do things on the cheap. As you say, a false economy.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Boils down to the Tories continuing with a system brought in by Labour, whose inventor said was not fit for purpose.

Tick boxes can never fairly assess anyone with a work affecting disability.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

DLA and PIP are not about "work affecting disability". If you're talking about IB & ESA, then the questions asked are not that different. The main difference was with IB, you could accumulate enough points(15) by scoring a few points here and there, across several descriptors. Multiple minor difficulties could lead to entitlement.

You have to differentiate between a sickness/illness/condition that will be resolved with in time possibly requiring treatment and an ongoing set of untreatable disabilities.


IIRC A major criticism is that the system of assessments doesn't feed back what difficulties that are identified and accepted. The Jobcentres don't see the reports. It relies on further interviews to identify the types of jobs you can and cannot do and what other restrictions there are on being able to do a Job search, eg part time vs full time. You could be too ill/sick to be on JSA, but not enough to be on ESA. The "Extended Period of Sickness"(EPS) on JSA might cover some of that, but the maximum period is 3 months.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

We don’t have enough doctors to do their day jobs at the moment - anyway, it was retired GPs who used to do the assessments, not specialist medics (my wife used to work with them).

Of the claims that have had assessments, 82% of new claims and 88% of reassessment claims were recorded as having one of the following most common disabling conditions: psychiatric disorders (which includes mixed anxiety and depressive disorders), musculoskeletal disease (general or regional), neurological disease, respiratory disease.

Not sure if it’s feasible to give assessors several years training in such wide and diverse areas?

The biggest challenge the assessors face is they are not given time between assessments to fully complete the paperwork (or electronic version thereof), which leads to confusion and mixup on evidence given and those being assessed.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

PIP was brought in by the Tory/Lib Dem coalition.

---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:41 ----------

It was carried out by a mix of current and retired doctors.

---------- Post added at 11:43 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

An interesting blog by the LSE about the affect on staff that the current system is having:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandp...re-plus-staff/

Some more info about the deaths caused by the DWP:

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.co...he-prosecution

The DWP were found to be in breach of data protection rules on the ESA50, so made amendments. On the first day of the new Parliament, they removed this amendment! I'm sure that this will be challenged and reported to the Information Commissioner:

https://mrfrankzola.wordpress.com/20...ights-removed/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

New evidence fuels demand for a fresh inquest into the case where the DWP ignored it's own policies five times when dealing with vulnerable people:

https://welfareweekly.com/family-of-...played-by-dwp/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Everyone should have the right to seek help with DWP (or any other) issues from their elected representatives without having to explain themselves:

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2020/...Odid9cz8_8VYtw

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

I’m having some trouble understanding how completing a form stating what involvement a local MP has had is a transgression of some fundamental right. Or, for that matter, as the SNP claims, that this is somehow a barrier to making a claim, or an appeal.

The real reason for this is evident in the original SNP press release where they twist it into a Tory attack on devolution. To me it is rather more disrespectful towards benefit claimants because it is using them as pawns in the nationalists’ endless constitutional games.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

It's NOT about MPs, it's about MSPs. MPs ARE still allowed to be involved, and MSPs ARE allowed to be involved, just not by telephone, but by email or letter.
Do your own research, as the link )[conveniently) doesn't provide a source article eg from the Daily Record from July 2018.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

This would be because DWP is a Westminster department, running systems and services that are not devolved, and therefore while an MP has a direct interest as the local, elected representative at Westminster, and as one of the lawmakers that authorises the whole system, an MSP does not.

Which further explains the SNP’s agitating in this case - if it’s not about “disrespecting” devolution, it’s about highlighting things that can’t be done by Holyrood, because they’re reserved to Westminster.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Work Coaches in pilot areas (without any training in mental health issues) are now referring people for mental health treatment!!!

https://www.disabilitynewsservice.co...redit-project/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

This is a bit too close for comfort for me:

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2020/...ghthood-video/

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Medical opinion from 2005.

Quote:

This month Andy Nicholson has the first of his trilogy of children's novels published - and he credits a serious head injury as the spur for his creativity.

So he has worked since the accident.



Fundamentally untrue, things CAN improve.

Usual complete and utter lack of info to be able to properly assess or judge anything.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

They are the equivalent of local councillors. Because of the voting system used, some MSPs don't really have constituents.

Regardless their support shouldn't be conditional.

Link

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Thus thoroughly failing to grasp the concept of being elected to serve your entire constituency, not just the ones who voted for you. But then this is the very bitter sectarianism we all know drives the SNP, no matter how much they deny it.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Another victim for the DWP to add to their tally..

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...y_to_clipboard

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Where the hell was his family while he starved to death?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

He was estranged from his family. Also, we don't have a 'liable relative' rule with regards to benefits in this country. Since the 1940's it has been deemed to be the job of the state to support those in need, but that responsibility has been steadily eroded by stealth over the years (especially since 2010).

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

So before 2010, claimants were able to not attend assessments and still get benefits?
Would those visits have taken place before 2010? In other words it would've been more likely to have occurred under the rules before 2010.


So the DWP had nothing else to go on. What else were they expected to do?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Well they've launched an investigation into themselves so clearly even they think they have a case to answer/cover up.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...staff-21384055

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

So if somebody doesn't respond to anything, they should simply keep getting benefits?:rolleyes: AFAIK the safeguarding visits are post-2010. So prior to that, those precautions wouldn't have happened. Which is the attempt at the better system? Pre-2010 or post-2010?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

They often find poor unfortunate people with mental health issues have starved to death round here, often but not always with cupboards full of food. It was so bad our borough was merged with another to make the figures look better. Used to be the case they'd be looked after in an institution but they got closed to save money...

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Oh yes, I well remember Thatchers 'Care in the community' idea. Despite all the spin about wanting to help those who had been institutionalised by closing down mental institutions, in practice it often meant shoving former residents into a bedsit on benefits. Then, when they couldn't cope and didn't complete forms, attend appointments etc it was left to the police, NHS staff, the DWP etc to sort out. These days, of course, the DWP respond by simply cutting off their income hence all these deaths from starvation or suicide.

---------- Post added at 18:19 ---------- Previous post was at 18:14 ----------

It doesn't have to be binary. The current DWP way of working is zero tolerance to any failure, with no allowances for flexibility or common sense or humanity. They just reduce, suspend or close a live claim.

Of course claimants have to participate in the requirements of the system if they are able to. If they don't engage the DWP simply compounds matters by cutting off their income instead of looking into why they have failed to respond etc.

---------- Post added at 18:27 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

[QUOTE=nomadking;36023993]So before 2010, claimants were able to not attend assessments and still get benefits?
Would those visits have taken place before 2010? In other words it would've been more likely to have occurred under the rules before 2010.


So the DWP had nothing else to go on. What else were they expected to do?/QUOTE]

As previously explained, before Camerons 'Stricter benefits regime' mantra (and cuts to staffing levels), we used common sense and flexibility to look into why the claimant wasn't engaging with the department. Sometimes it's possible to bypass a mentally ill or disabled customer completely and obtain the information elsewhere without a claim form.

This is the true meaning of 'social security'.

These days a robotic approach is deployed, which you appear to endorse with your inhumane comments that are devoid of any form of empathy whatsoever.

As the National Lottery strapline says 'It could be YOU'.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

[QUOTE=RichardCoulter;36024100]Oh yes, I well remember Thatchers 'Care in the community' idea. Despite all the spin about wanting to help those who had been institutionalised by closing down mental institutions, in practice it often meant shoving former residents into a bedsit on benefits. Then, when they couldn't cope and didn't complete forms, attend appointments etc it was left to the police, NHS staff, the DWP etc to sort out. These days, of course, the DWP respond by simply cutting off their income hence all these deaths from starvation or suicide.

---------- Post added at 18:19 ---------- Previous post was at 18:14 ----------



It doesn't have to be binary. The current DWP way of working is zero tolerance to any failure, with no allowances for flexibility or common sense or humanity. They just reduce, suspend or close a live claim.

Of course claimants have to participate in the requirements of the system if they are able to. If they don't engage the DWP simply compounds matters by cutting off their income instead of looking into why they have failed to respond etc.

---------- Post added at 18:27 ---------- Previous post was at 18:19 ----------

As I pointed out, the safeguarding visits weren't there at all before Cameron. So what happened before then? Where were there supposed to get the info from? He hadn't seen his GP in years. Wouldn't have been the first case of somebody claiming something like agoraphobia, but mysteriously able to travel the world or whatever.

3 Examples
Link 1
Link 2
Link 3


Same article


So nobody knew anything.



He obviously was able to deal with everything and everyone to get the benefits in the first place, so how was this that different?


Why should non-compliance and absence of info be a passport for benefits?

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

As if to demonstrate how shoddy the system is I recently helped someone with a PIP application. Had been on DLA before being assessed.

Points but no money with a copy/paste decision.
Mandatory reconsideration. Same as first decision.
Appealed. No new information provided. Highest rate of both components from DWP appeal writer.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

If they did not get so many decisions wrong in the first place they would save the taxpayer a awful lot of money.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Re: Free recording equipment to stop assessors lying etc:

https://www.thecanary.co/feature/202...mpression=true

Eg https://welfareweekly.com/disabled-g...-newsletter_37

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

DWP has to pay compensation to a woman of colour after she was subject to taunts of "paki lover", inappropriate touching and staff spraying body spray on themselves whilst stood next to her etc.

https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/dw...iscrimination/

I can only assume that this behaviour was by the new younger (cheaper) and inexperienced staff as the older members of staff leave in droves.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Pay peanuts get monkeys, it's the way the public sector is going.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Absolutely right.

How much more unprofessional can this department get?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...BNHSfY7Pu18TYQ

Claiming disability benefits shouldn't be a game of Deal or No Deal!

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Next Mondays Panorama will deal with the reasons why the DWP has had to pay out nearly a million pounds of taxpayers money to compensate disabled people for discrimination:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000g6rz

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

Arrangements regarding benefit claimants and the Coronavirus:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...mpression=true

Sounds sensible, but I bet we hear about sanctions for some when their sanction stats are down.

I'm lucky in that I don't have to attend such meetings in order to receive my benefits; good job as i've decided to self isolate as much as I can.

Re: The state benefits system mega-thread.
 

True about the pay, but it used to promise a lifetime of bananas and other fruit, that's all gone now.